Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

2:

+1: After watching Trela at the weekend, I have finally come to the conclusion that it would not be out of the ordinary to call Ryu top tier. A few weeks back, I'd have said otherwise, but now, I stand firmly in the fact that he really is a fantastic character. Including his insane combo game, combo to kill game, great suitability and recovery options, something else hit me. He has great movement options thanks to his Focus Attack. Want an extra boost mid air? Cancel a Focus Attack. How about tank a hit and cancel the Focus Attack into a kill? This is another great option Ryu has that only makes him better than most characters. Regardless, I now think Ryu is top tier, and one of my votes go to Ryu.

-1: This is a counter vote. As well as making valid points and reasons, there is usually a little bit of "main bias" behind my votes. This is an odd opposite, as I do not think Mario deserves to go upwards into tier 1 as many votes seem to assume. For the record, I think he is a tier 2 character, certainly not any lower at all. The thing with Mario is that he doesn't really have any bad matchups. He has some that are in the opponent's favour, but none that are polarizing, and has some really good ones, which makes him a viable choice. However, he doesn't really excel at being the best in anything like the characters above him do. For example, he doesn't have insane recovery or multiple recovery options (Sheik, Pika, ZSS), he doesn't have fantastic movement (Sheik, Pika. Albeit, Mario has great movement, but not on their level), he doesn't have a fantastic neutral (Pika, Sheik), he doesn't have moves that force some sort of reaction from the opponent (Sheik's Needles, ZSS's Paralyzer, Luma. All these force the opponent to make some sort of unsafe reaction), he doesn't have the best hyper offensive aggro game (Sheik and ZSS come to mind), he doesn't have the best defensive options or walling techniques (Rosalina), he doesn't have moves that kill insanely early (ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu) he doesn't have mindgames, which all the characters above him have (but Ryu comes to mind in that department), and though he has a fantastic combo game, they aren't the easiest to start (for example, both Mario and Sheik generally get good combo's off a grab, but Sheik gets grabs easier due to her faster movement and safer neutral options. Ryu also is another example. If Ryu lands the correct move, he can combo you into death in some cases). Mario has a good ability in all the mentioned, but the characters above him are actually one of the/the best in that field, which is why they are in the top tier. Mario doesn't have the best ability in anything, he is just good at everything, which is why he deserves to be in tier 2 rather than tier 1. If you think Mario is the 5th best character in the game, that's fine, but not in tier 1. He can still be 5th, but top of tier 2.

I don't think anyone other than Ryu needs to move up, and nobody needs to go down. If I see some changes later on, I will come back and change my Mario vote, as I do not want to see him move down to tier 3 (not like I'm expecting it to happen, but just in case).

 

[Wintermelon43]

No tier changes plz

 

[aεrgiα]

+1 personally, i think despite all his nerfs he is still a large threat, seeing the general opinion on him so far he probably wont move up, but "i can dream harold!!!". from what ive seen he has one of the, if not the best mu vs sheik(please correct me if im wrong as i play neither char) and thats gotta count for something, his up b is a great tool for gimping and escaping combos. he doesnt really struggle landing, unlike a lot of chars in this game(at least ive not seen it) side b exerts pressure without sonic commiting to anything, his kill power got nerfed, but he still doesnt really struggle getting kills, sure he doesnt kill as easily as say ryu but its not to the point of "sheik once shes out of her 50/50 % range". he can run away and chose when he wants to fight, and his mobility in general is a great asset

i'll save my second vote for a counter vote because i think other than that this tier is fine as is, or if i change my mind because of a discussion/seeing some top level play.
-1 as a countervote because i dont think he belongs in tier 1

other thoughts:
this guy i feel may very well be top tier material with the current patch but ive not seen enough to be convinced, i will say however that zero said hes planning to play him more often thanks to the patch, and that, i think, speaks more clearly than anything else about how the current patch helped him
whilst ness imo isnt as good as he was hyped up to be at the start due to his glaring weaknesses i still think hes a tad bit better than chars in tier 3(bar villager but ive said my opinion on him already )
& both have the potential to be top tier but im not quite sold on either of them yet

 

[Wintermelon43]

No tier changes plz

Okay now i know what to vote:
-1
+1

 

[Xandercosm]

+1 Please don't kill me. I sincerely do think that he's top tier material. After playing him since Smash 4 came out, watching tons of videos of people like Ally and even Mew2king, he just seems like he deserves it. He can combo so easily, he's got pretty great frame data, he's relatively fast, and he's got all the tools to compete with the big leagues. Plus, he puts up a fight against Sheik.

-1 He's good but he feels like a tier 3 character. He's got good mobility but not great, he's got an "okay" recovery but nothing amazing. He's got good kill power I guess. He just doesn't FEEL like a tier 2 character.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Its like choosing a favorite child D:




+1 : It was either Sonic or Diddy(Not because of my mains). Sonic has combos, kill power, and although he was nerfed i find him at the VERY BOTTOM of tier 1.
-1 Counter Vote mainly. I do not think he is top tier JUST YET. He is a great character I know that, but he is not tier 1 just yet because i belive his meta is still under developed. and Geez, all this hype about Ryu is making me wanna work on his more.

 

[aεrgiα]

If I'm reading how the voting works correctly, where +1 moves people up and -1 moves people down a tier, and votes counteract each other, then I think Yoshi is too high [where is MK/Falcon/Villager??? why was I not here to vote for them?] and I think no one else in here belongs in the tier above, so...

-1 Sonic (to counteract the vote above, can compete with nearly the entire cast but has some awkward MUs and the ability to hold shield at center stage to avoid dying is somewhat detrimental to him... definitely only a small step below the top though)
-1 Ryu (to counteract the vote above, too gimpable, seems to have some trouble with smaller characters, feels a cut below the top tiers)

well to ur first question i think this answers it

UPDATED

It was close to begin with, MK was right up there about to move up a tier with ryu but in the end falcon and villager almost had as many upvotes as Metaknight, so I had to draw the line at Ryu. DK was a clear favourite to move down.

Now to vote on tier 2;
2:

that was the problem only two votes per person and most people felt that ryu and dk needed to move more urgently than the other 3 and we had all 4 of them (ryu villager falcon and mk) in tier 3. but i think in general the first 3 tiers are pretty close in viability, making it very difficult, just look at most peoples top 20 chars, it will include mostly the same chars but with very different orders

 

[CleanOgre]

Tier 2:

-

 

[Xandercosm]

Tier 2:

-

So Ryu is moving to tier 1 and Yoshi is moving to tier 3. The first person to vote seems to be the one to determine everyone else votes...

 

[Wintermelon43]

So Ryu is moving to tier 1 and Yoshi is moving to tier 3. The first person to vote seems to be the one to determine everyone else votes...

I don't really care if Yoshi goes down, but if Ryu goes up than there's more proof that the human species is the least intelligant species in the world

 

[aεrgiα]

So Ryu is moving to tier 1 and Yoshi is moving to tier 3. The first person to vote seems to be the one to determine everyone else votes...

actually i just went back and counted, ryu is only at +2 atm because of all the counter votes (which i now know do have an effect thanks to brownys explanation ) so that, at the very least, isnt as clear as one would think(sonic, mario and diddy also have a similar number of votes atm(though i didnt go back and count how many votes they had) but either way, a lot of people are saving their 2nd vote as a counter vote so a lot of things can still change, also i dont think anyone will kill you for thinking mario should go up because 1: u gave some reasoning and 2: a lot of other people put him high up on their tier

Edit: also just went back and counted yoshi and ness both have -5 votes atm so its currently looking like either both or neither of them will move

 

[Zerp]

I don't see a need to vote anyone, I am happy with how the tier is right now.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I don't really care if Yoshi goes down, but if Ryu goes up than there's more proof that the human species is the least intelligant species in the world

I wouldn't really be worried about it, since he can just be down voted next round. The problem comes when the wrong characters get demoted down a tier, since they'll fall into a tier that can't be changed anymore.

 

[aεrgiα]

Browny i think, so that u dont forget about ur own vote u should post it in the comments and not just in the OP, but ur decision.

what i want to ask about is all the people saying "no votes since i think this tier is fine as it is", how are u gonna treat those votes? will u treat them as "no votes" or will u count them as "counter votes" against the chars with the most votes? which would be more work but "fairer" imo :/

in case its the former, all the people saying this tier should stay as it is should probably think about changing their no vote to counter votes near the end of this voting phase

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

I meant to post this with my vote earlier, but for those interested in seeing what exactly Ryu has up his sleeves, check this out.

Points of note:

0:25 - Look how he approaches ZSS and actually gets the kill, all that was a true combo. And check out ZSS's percent at the start of the combo, 57%. Also, Ryu was not high on rage either.

4:49 - A good example of how Ryu can tank a hit at a vital moment to avoid a combo or potential death.

5:19 - An example of how Focus Attack can be used to fade in to punish.

Other notable videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI07ss71yjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltU09aKM8Dk


Also of note, all of Ryu's aerials come out on frame 8 or less, and that is pretty darn quick. For reference, Nair is 4, Fair is 6, and Bair and Dair are 8. Also, his Fair and Bair also do 15% and 16% damage. So basically, we have a Fair that comes out 1 frame slower than Sheik's, but does just over 3x as much damage too. I do also want to mention that though I say Focus Attack can tank hits, it doesn't work against multi hit moves such as Pika's Fair/Bair, Rosalina's aerials with Luma, R.O.B.'s Up Air, so Ryu doesn't use this option as much in these matchups. However, all these characters can either be killed at lower percents, or be combo'd easier, and as always, there is some combo that can end with a kill move.

 

[Deleted member]

Can we in general stop complaining or antagonizing others for upvoting or downvoting a specific character? it's even more inconsiderate when the voter gives legitimate, thought out reasons as to why they think a character should go up or down. This is a community tier list, I do understand that. But it'd be nice for all of us to be mindful of one another and have some common courtesy.

I don't really care if Yoshi goes down, but if Ryu goes up than there's more proof that the human species is the least intelligant species in the world

Exhibit A.

 

[aεrgiα]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

I meant to post this with my vote earlier, but for those interested in seeing what exactly Ryu has up his sleeves, check this out.

Points of note:

0:25 - Look how he approaches ZSS and actually gets the kill, all that was a true combo. And check out ZSS's percent at the start of the combo, 57%. Also, Ryu was not high on rage either.

4:49 - A good example of how Ryu can tank a hit at a vital moment to avoid a combo or potential death.

5:19 - An example of how Focus Attack can be used to fade in to punish.

Other notable videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI07ss71yjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltU09aKM8Dk


Also of note, all of Ryu's aerials come out on frame 8 or less, and that is pretty darn quick. For reference, Nair is 4, Fair is 6, and Bair and Dair are 8. Also, his Fair and Bair also do 15% and 16% damage. So basically, we have a Fair that comes out 1 frame slower than Sheik's, but does just over 3x as much damage too. I do also want to mention that though I say Focus Attack can tank hits, it doesn't work against multi hit moves such as Pika's Fair/Bair, Rosalina's aerials with Luma, R.O.B.'s Up Air, so Ryu doesn't use this option as much in these matchups. However, all these characters can either be killed at lower percents, or be combo'd easier, and as always, there is some combo that can end with a kill move.

talking about that video(those games were great btw) at 2:17, does anyone have a reasonable explanation for it or do we have phantom hits in smash4 now?

 

[Xandercosm]

actually i just went back and counted, ryu is only at +2 atm because of all the counter votes (which i now know do have an effect thanks to brownys explanation ) so that, at the very least, isnt as clear as one would think(sonic, mario and diddy also have a similar number of votes atm(though i didnt go back and count how many votes they had) but either way, a lot of people are saving their 2nd vote as a counter vote so a lot of things can still change, also i dont think anyone will kill you for thinking mario should go up because 1: u gave some reasoning and 2: a lot of other people put him high up on their tier

Edit: also just went back and counted yoshi and ness both have -5 votes atm so its currently looking like either both or neither of them will move

Again, this list is very confusing...

 

[Xandercosm]

Can we in general stop complaining or antagonizing others for upvoting or downvoting a specific character? it's even more inconsiderate when the voter gives legitimate, thought out reasons as to why they think a character should go up or down. This is a community tier list, I do understand that. But it'd be nice for all of us to be mindful of one another and have some common courtesy.



Exhibit A.

Chill out. I think everyone needs to calm down since this is just a list about a video game.

Sorry for the double-post. I had no choice...

 

[IndigoSSB]

Chill out. I think everyone needs to calm down since this is just a list about a video game.

Sorry for the double-post. I had no choice...

Call me crazy, but he seems pretty calm to me. Besides, we're on a forum where we talk about a video game, I don't know what you were expecting.

 

[Bowserboy3]

talking about that video(those games were great btw) at 2:17, does anyone have a reasonable explanation for it or do we have phantom hits in smash4 now?

We don't have phantom hits in Smash 4, but there is an explanation for this.

Basically, if you are stunned by ZSS's Dsmash or Neutral Special, you cannot be stunned again until you hit the ground. However, this video shows something else. Breaking down the clip, Ryu is stunned at 2:13 on the ground, and as ZSS goes for the grab, she pushes him towards the ledge, and Ryu is essentially in the air, such as at 2:14. When he is launched, he hasn't technically touched the ground yet, so he is still counted as in the air, so when the Paralyzer gets him at 2:18, it doesn't stun him. I think that's right from what I have learned...

 

[Munomario777]

+1 ,

Not sure about the rest, haha.

 

[Xandercosm]

Call me crazy, but he seems pretty calm to me. Besides, we're on a forum where we talk about a video game, I don't know what you were expecting.

I thought we were talking about cake...

 

[CleanOgre]

So Ryu is moving to tier 1 and Yoshi is moving to tier 3. The first person to vote seems to be the one to determine everyone else votes...

I never voted for Ryu to go up, while I have been voting for Yoshi to go down for quite a while. If you are going to go after me, you can at least back it up with facts.

 

[smashphan4]

Meh, nobody moves up or down.

 

[Equin0x]

So Ryu is moving to tier 1 and Yoshi is moving to tier 3. The first person to vote seems to be the one to determine everyone else votes...

Actually I believe I was the first to vote and I didn't move anybody.

But unfortunately it seems inevitable. I guess I'll pick one to move up and one to move down.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

-1
that's about it. Everything is fine except yoshi is at the top of tier 3 because of bad grab game and little results outside of japan

 

[Vyrnx]

- (counter)
+

It's way too premature to call Ryu tier 1. We aren't close yet, he needs to be able to consistently place top 8 at nationals and he hasn't done that yet. Yes, probably because he hasn't been around long enough, but at the end of the day tier 1 of all tiers must be backed by consistent high level results.

Up voted Sonic because he could replace Pikachu in tier 1. He and the blonde characters all seem to be ahead right now. People said that players would learn to get around Sonic, but to me it seems the opposite is happening. He has consistent results in America and Japan, and he's just really good... Good MUs all around.

I also wanted to down vote Ness but I was afraid all this Ryu hype would actually pull through.

 

[Uncle Trump]

+ (Why are people down-voting a Top 5 character?)
- (Really? He moved up?)

 

[Routa]

Ah now this looks rather near to perfection.



- Good character overall, but not on the same lvl of goodness as others.

- Call it a counter vote. Sonic gets "destroyed" by shield in theory. When people learn how to play defensively against him... Well he wont be such a threat as he is made to be.

 

[TDK]

-1 because he just isn't on the level of the other characters here.
+1 counter-vote mainly.

 

[DMWN]

I don't really care if Yoshi goes down, but if Ryu goes up than there's more proof that the human species is the least intelligant species in the world

I think I found even more proof.

 

[HerpFish]

This tier looks pretty solid, with the exception of Yoshi, but we already have that covered...

I'll save my votes for later, but some thoughts for right now...
The shield stun changes made him even better, but I still feel as though he belongs in this tier versus the top tier. This could very well change, but I'll leave it at this for now.
Another very solid character, but he is still too young to be placed in tier 1 and there are a lot of counter votes for him as well, so unless he gets mass up voted after this, I won't down vote him.
Yes, he is very good, but defensive play works wonders against him.
I agree that he isn't as good as other characters in the tier, I believe that he is better than most of tier 3 by a pretty good margin.
I want him to stay so that there is more color variety in the tier. There is too much red.

 

[Onyxical]

+ I honestly think Mario has the potential to be top 5, with his insane combo game and reliable kill options that are also safe on shield if properly spaced put him slightly higher than characters like and .

- Frankly, Yoshi is amazing, but his downfall is we know next to nothing about what he can do, he gets very little results and with what we know now he doesnt belong in Tier 2 over characters like and .

 

[TDK]

I feel like Yoshi is the worst "high tier" character, so to speak.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I feel like Yoshi is the worst "high tier" character, so to speak.

Depends on where you draw the line when defining high tiers. IMO Yoshi's in the same boat as Captain Falcon just to put an example out there.

 

[Deleted member]

 

[Affluent Brit]

+ : This is mostly a counter vote for those who are voting against Fox. Fox as a character has been improving more and more as time goes on, even with his infinite jab combo taken away. Yes it is true that not many people use Fox, so we do not see much of him. However, when we do, the plays just keep getting better and better. Fox is solid Top 10 material.

- : So it seems that Ryu has moved up a tier. I disapprove, but so be it. However, people are still voting him up thinking that he is S-Tier potential? He is a good character, I will admit, but it just seems as if people keep pushing him because "woo-hoo Ryu hype" when he really is not that special. I respect people's opinions, yet I know how some people are around here, so I don't expect mine to get the same treatment.

 

[TDK]

Depends on where you draw the line when defining high tiers. IMO Yoshi's in the same boat as Captain Falcon just to put an example out there.

Yeah, though to be fair, my "High Tier" has Falcon and Villager in it too.

Also, to stay relevant, looks like he's going to move into Tier 3, which is probably for the best. We'll see who, if any, gets the bump to S tier.

 

[IndigoSSB]

To everybody that still has a vote I encourage you to up vote the characters you think are better, rather than down vote the characters you think are bad. I still think Yoshi is the worst in this tier, but in general I'm against demoting too many characters on this list.

If an incorrect character gets promoted to tier one it can be remedied in the next voting phase. However, if a character gets demoted then it'll fall into a locked tier that we won't be able to fix.