Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[LunarWingCloud]

+1 Lucas
+1 Sheik
+1 Rosalina
+1 Luigi
+1 Diddy Kong

List is starting to look pretty legit

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Man, I would vote Lucario up after watching CEO. I will just wait for the 29th

 

[Wintermelon43]

Man, I would vote Lucario up after watching CEO. I will just wait for the 29th

Did anyone upload CEO 2015 on youtube? I'm on a vacation right now, so I can't watch past broadcasts, and I didn't get a chance to watch it live.

 

[Jucchan]

-1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[kirby509]

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

 

[Wintermelon43]

@ Browny how much voting periods will there be?

 

[gamegalaxy64]

Yoshi +1
Pikachu +1
Pac-Man +1
Diddy Kong +1
Villager +1

 

[Jiggly]

I'm sadly startin to lose hope in this ther list...
-1 Kirby lol
+1 puff
+1 Lucas
+1 Diddy
-1 WFT

 

[Browny]

@ Browny how much voting periods will there be?

Well, the other one had around 30 periods before I started phase 2 of the list which was 1 vote, and phase 3 was about 8. So expect at least 30. We are on the 4th.

I'm sadly startin to lose hope in this ther list...
-1 Kirby lol
+1 puff
+1 Lucas
+1 Diddy
-1 WFT

As above, give it time. Within maybe 2 weeks it should start to look really solid. From the next voting period it will also only be 3 votes per update, so characters wont bounce around as much.

 

[Jiggly]

Well, the other one had around 30 periods before I started phase 2 of the list which was 1 vote, and phase 3 was about 8. So expect at least 30. We are on the 4th.



As above, give it time. Within maybe 2 weeks it should start to look really solid. From the next voting period it will also only be 3 votes per update, so characters wont bounce around as much.

I'm hoping. It's mostly the discussion and reasoning people have here.

 

[Scamper52596]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm hoping. It's mostly the discussion and reasoning people have here.

What character placements do you not like?

 

[Morbi]

Jigglypuff +1
Donkey Kong +1
Little Mac +1
Doctor Mario +1
Shulk -1

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Did anyone upload CEO 2015 on youtube? I'm on a vacation right now, so I can't watch past broadcasts, and I didn't get a chance to watch it live.

Its not overyet, but a wii chuck lucario player made it to top 32. also, MVD, someone who I have not seen.

 

[Diddy Kong]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[MechPasta]

+
+
+
+
+/

 

[Wintermelon43]

+
+
+
+
+/

You can only choose 5. You need to choose between Pit and Dark Pit

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So how do you guys think CEO and EVO will affect the tier list. If Esam gets 1st or 2nd, Pikachu will most likely move to 3rd place, but what do you guys think?

 

[Wintermelon43]

So how do you guys think CEO and EVO will affect the tier list. If Esam gets 1st or 2nd, Pikachu will most likely move to 3rd place, but what do you guys think?

What time is the top 8 stream at for CEO? For CEO, I needto watch it, EVO, depends on how good a character does.

 

[kylexv]

What time is the top 8 stream at for CEO? For CEO, I needto watch it, EVO, depends on how good a character does.

I think 3 P.M. EST for Smash 4.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think 3 P.M. EST for Smash 4.

Yay I won't be able to watch it live.......

 

[Tomato]

+ 1
+ 1
+ 1
- 1
- 1

 

[Da Man]

Mario +1
Ness +1
Lucas -1
Ryu -1
Diddy -1

 

[ShadowGuy1]

What time is the top 8 stream at for CEO? For CEO, I needto watch it, EVO, depends on how good a character does.

It is 2:30 pm ESt time

 

[LRodC]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Silxer]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[NimbusSpark]

1+ To even the odds against the Pac-Man downvote bandwagon. He's actually better than what most are considering him to be, and I'm not talking about the recently found glitches.
1+ He's a bit low in the list, to be honest.
1+ Even with his nerfs, he still remains a solid threat.
1+ Hard to master, but extremely annoying and amazing when used properly.
1- Just do it. Please.

 

[Zionaze]

+
-

 

[MockRock]

-1 -> Really inconsistent, many moves are just awful (tilts, specials...), needs significant changes
+1 -> Very solid character that seems to be underutilized
-1 -> Sadly, just not very playable. Not enough kill power to justify the combo fodder and light weight.
-1 -> Slow, clunky, punishable. Hits very hard, but a single missed read is a big problem.
+1 -> Honestly not very knowledgeable here, but the overwhelming opinion is that this guy is quite good.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+
-

Did you delete your post and added it here, or are you trying to vote two times (Which won't work)

 

[Wintermelon43]

+
-

Did you delete your post and added it here, or are you trying to vote two times (Which won't work)

 

[Zionaze]

Did you delete your post and added it here, or are you trying to vote two times (Which won't work)

for some reason I read it as "new votes from the 28th of june". Ill make the newer one as my vote

 

[Notries]

+1
-1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Loup]

-1 - I can see this with custom's legal...but they aren't.
-1 - IS NOT MY BOY.
+1 - Straight up personal bias after having to play against San.
+1- I can't see why he isn't in the same section as all the other stupid ignorant characters in this game.
+1 - the hype train has arrived

 

[Shog]

+1
+1
+1
+1

-1

 

[Marrow]

Lucas +1
Charizard +1
Mii Gunner +1
Kirby -1
Bowser Jr +1

 

[Mightyno.M]

+1 Charizard
+1 Pit
+1 Dark Pit
+1 Falco
+1 Marth

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

-1
+

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

+1
+1 (Why is she that low when she can Jab1>F-smash people and kill them at like 80%)
-1
-1
-1

 

[SpottedCerberus]

+1- I can't see why he isn't in the same section as all the other stupid ignorant characters in this game.

That's just ridiculous. If Luigi is a stupid/ignorant character, then why did everyone think he sucked when the game first came out? People thought he was worse than he was in Brawl, where he was at the bottom of middle tier and competitively unviable. Why? First of all, he still has the same issues. His approach is abysmal, he can't punish OOS, his recovery is very gimpable, he's easily juggled, he lacks mobility, he has short range, etc. On top of that, he suffered a lot of objective nerfs.

His recovery was nerfed, with up-b losing both vertical and horizontal distance, and the cyclone gaining less height. All of his aerials and tilts deal less damage, with nair's knockback receiving a nerf as well. Luigi used to be able to string any 2 aerials together in a single short hop. Now, bair and nair have lost that ability.

His f-smash has less knockback, while d-smash and u-smash got nerfed in damage output. Plus, just as a bonus, Fire Jump Punch doesn't KO nearly as early and it has more landing lag.

These negatives turned out to be mitigated, mostly through indirect buffs like nerfs to campable projectiles and the removal of hitstun cancelling. He was also sped up a bit and his traction was increased ever-so-slightly. Plus, some of his nerfs had upsides in improving his combo ability. So, overall, he's a lot more viable this time around. Now, instead of learning to deal with these changes and exploiting his weaknesses, the smash community stomps its feet petulantly and declares him OP.

Luigi's match-ups aren't very great. He does notably poorly against Mega Man, Pac-man, ROB, Sheik, Rosalina, Little Mac, and Villager, to name a few. (Apparently, Samus might counter him too? I don't know about that, but that's what people are saying. It's definitely not a positive match-up. I'd say at least slightly negative.) Then he goes even against a lot of other characters. You have a lot of options against him, and he doesn't truly hard counter any character, although some struggle with him.

On the other hand, Sheik has no negative match-ups and very few even ones. She has similarly crazy combo ability, with more ATs and options, a better and more versatile projectile, and one of the best recoveries in the game. How are they even considered to be on the same level? Luigi is not top-tier, nor is he even close overpowered. He has many exploitable weaknesses. You can't just play on auto-pilot and expect to win. You actually have to know the match-up, and have knowledge of your opponents weapons and weaknesses. That's because he's actually a balanced character this time around. This is how a well-designed fighting game works.

I made a match-up spread for Luigi pre-patch that most on the Luigi MU thread agreed was pretty accurate. (I spent a lot of time on it.) Now, I've made some alterations based on some criticisms, and patch changes. I'd say his current match-up spread (minus Ryu and Miis) is something like this:

+3 (heavy advantage) :
+2 (advantage) :
+1 (light advantage) :
0 (even) :
-1 (light disadvantage) :
-2 (disadvantage) :
-3 (heavy disadvantage) :

So:
+3: 0 (0)
+2: 11 (22)
+1: 12 (12)
0: 13 (0)
-1: 7 (-7)
-2: 3 (-6)
-3: 2 (-6)

This results in a net score of 15. This spread included 48 characters. Luigi's average performance against the cast is +15/48, or +.3125. An advantage, albeit a very small one. Weighted, I believe this would likely increase somewhat. He does poorly against Sheik and Rosa, but a lot better against most of the top-tiers. Three of his five worst match-ups are against uncommon characters who have high learning curves, which works out pretty well for him. Overall, his match-ups are pretty good, but not that good.

Some of these match-ups are probably better than I put, some are worse, but I think it's generally accurate.