Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[MistressRemilia]

Okay so, let's talk about some underrated / overrated characters:

Underrated:

Doctor Mario: Doc definitly isn't 5th worse of the roster. He sure has a terrible stigma around him, and no good representation, so ppl who haven't played a good Doc are likely going to say he's trash because of his obvious flaws such as recovery ( Which can be kind of solved with customs ) and worse mobility, range is kind of lacking as well.
And that's it really, otherwise, we have:
- A defensive character who can force approaches due to the good angle & distance of his Pills, and wins a lot of times vs zoners due to said projectile + his cape, which is always enjoyable.
- Killing isn't a trouble at all, which is a quality for a defensive character. All of your smashes, UpB OoS, BackAir & Reverse Cape & Tornado offstage to edgeguard, or even Fai. You have quite a lot of choices.
- While it's mobility isn't the best, his combinaison of medium sized hurtbox & decent aerial & ground mobility makes him above average on that side, which will be felt when fighting some characters defensive characters usually have trouble against.
- His combos are as good and diverse as Mario, just different. Doctor Mario is more of an horizontal combo character while Mario is a vertical combo character. Sure, mobility makes your combos harder to pull off at High %, but unlike Mario you can actually kill very well, so this problem really isn't one.

Game&Watch: G&W still is a bit underrated. He fits very well in the B Ranks, as some of his niches offer him a very good reason to pick him as a secondary, or even a main with a bit of a backup. Some of his good matchups ( to me ) include some characters such as Mario & Luigi, ZSS, and he's not totally bad vs Sheik or Diddy. He could probably move up to 5 spots on the tier list as his use is to me more justified than Robin, Marth, Dedede or even Bowser Jr. As you probably know, G&W has good aerials, great grab & combo game, a very good recovery & smashes w/out much cooldown, but his longevity really hurts him, especially since he's defensive.

Overrated:

Link: Link is honestly pretty eh of a character, i couldn't even define why ppl find him so good. His zoning is decent but with his bad mobility, he won't get anything from it unless he's close to his opponent. I guess that in an average plac such as here, ppl tend to overhype Link's viability, but in tours, he's as much viable as characters like Donkey Kong, at least imo.

Captain Falcon: The most popular towards the average player, so obviously, you'd expect a bit of overhype from the players, and that is true. You see, CF's Neutral is good and all, and his reads really reward the player, but he's hugely hindered by his recovery & some matchups. First, the recovery. As soon as you know if CF will recover low or high ( if he can ), then a good player WILL gimp him, that's it rly, and it hurts CF a lot, if he misdread something and is brought offstage, depending of the situation, he might lose a stock, but he's in danger no matter what. Then, even with his neutral game, his flaws like the ease you'd have to combo him & gimp him turns some of his decent matchups into even ones, or even ones into bad ones, something i wouldn't expect from a Top 10-ish character.

Reminder that these are just opinions
So, here are some things as well:
+1 Game&Watch
+1 Doctor Mario
+1 Meta Knight
+1 Wii Fit Trainer
+1 Charizard
+1 Mii Gunner
+1 Mii Brawler
+1 Bowser
-1 Palutena
-1 Ganondorf
-1 King Dedede
-1 Marth
-1 Ike
-1 Robin
-1 Captain Falcon
-1 Link
-1 Mii Swordfighter
-1 Shulk

 

[Valamway]

inb4Lucasistoptier

That might be a... Speedy Mistake...

 

[LozNerd]

+1 LInk
+1 Captain Falcon
+1 Zelda

 

[Wintermelon43]

When do we start voting for the second tier list @ Browny

 

[jcx]

When do we start voting for the second tier list @ Browny

I'm backing you up. Now that we have four DLCs and some balancing patches...

Do I even need to finish this sentence?

 

[Scamper52596]

Yeah, we should get on this soon. The next wave of DLC characters probably won't be for a little while, so now's a good time.

 

[Zerp]

inb4 Sakurai releases Bandana Dee out of nowhere at E3, and makes it impossible to rate for longer.

But yeah, we should start voting soon, not right this instant though, I'd wait for release hype to die down a bit, which I imagine would take a week or two.

 

[Browny]

I'm going to start this again in a few hours just let me catch up on todays work...

...

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

inb4 Sakurai releases Bandana Dee out of nowhere at E3, and makes it impossible to rate for longer.

This a thousand times this Samurai pls

 

[Browny]

OK voting is open

 

[Scamper52596]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[LunarWingCloud]

+1 Rosalina & Luma
+1 Pikachu
+1 Sheik
+1 Luigi
+1 Ness

 

[A10theHero]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Zerp]

Not going for Sheik, Luigi, Diddy, Rosaluma, etc here since everyone else is already giving them their much needed attention.

+ 1 While she has a few bad match ups, she's got some very good ones, has excellent stage presence, wall of pain is still in existence, and is nearly unbeatable in capable hands off stage.
+ 1 Significantly underrated, while he is not particularly good, he isn't bad either.
+1 Has major problems approaching, but once the little bugger's in he's sure to be a royal pain.
+ 1 Dash Attack, Dash Attack, Dash Attack, and Dash Attack are all really, really good. Did I mention his Dash Attack?
+ 1 Wario is a number one! WAAAAAA! But seriously, Wario's great, he may not be number one like he'd want to be, but he's at least top 15, he's got a boatload of options.

 

[NeepKing]

+1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Ze Diglett]

Not gonna bother with the new DLC characters () here since I don't have any of them and can't really judge their potential this early on in their metagame development.
+1 Insane edgeguarding game, JC Clown Kart Dash + aerials leads to cray combos and mindgames in the hands of a skilled player, excellent recovery, KOs super early. Easily mid-tier at least if you ask me.
-1 Slow ground attacks, sub-par range on most of his KO moves, horrendous grab range, Confusion is incredibly slow to start up and doesn't have any follow-ups whatsoever, bad at punishing rolls, dies if someone sneezes too close to him.
+1 Super good range on all of his attacks, Monado Arts make him super broken, lives to stupid %'s and KOs at stupider %'s, even without Smash. Probably top 15 material.
+1 Main bias ftw Great defensive game, awesome punish game, racks up % and KOs super easily, Nair is an awesome combo starter and breaks through every non-disjointed attack. Pretty close to top 15 IMO.
+1 Obligitory Sheik upvote kek

 

[Browny]

-1 Slow ground attacks, sub-par range overall, horrendous grab range, Confusion is incredibly slow to start up and doesn't have any follow-ups, dies to a gentle spring breeze.

I actually have no reason to remain impartial in this thread, and the misconceptions going around about Mewtwo really... really annoy me. This isnt about my character preference bias (I really like Lucario but I think hes quite bad in this game and I would prefer his brawl incarnation with reduced aura), its about people posting things that just arent true.

By what standard are you measuring him having sub-par range? To me this isnt even a question. Mewtwo has good range, its not up for debate. His tilts, aerials and specials all have above average range only losing out to sword characters, dk, bowser and maybe greninja. You saying him having sub-par range is like me saying shulk has sub-par range because... I say so. Doesnt mean its true.

This though isnt directed at you, but I dont know why people have an issue with confusion not having any guaranteed follow ups. Although its almost guaranteed into usmash if you confuse under a platform.
You know what other characters dont have any follow ups from their reflectors?

Yep, thats everyone.
The fact that mewtwo doesnt have guaranteed follow ups from confusion isnt a bad trait. Its like a super-buffed version of every other characters mediocre reflector.

If mewtwo had a reflector, command grab, momentum shifter and combo move in the same special move, that would be broken. Every other characters reflector simply reflects and thats it, mewtwos is a command grab and an aerial momentum shifter.

 

[SamBamBamz]

+1 People really underestimate Robin's potential in Sm4sh. Yes, he is slow, but that is because he carries so many books in his robes! All jokes aside, once you can master his zoning potentials, he is a masterful tactician. But only in the right hands, which I am probably one of the few to actually have.

+1 Yes, this blue ball of annoyance probably has too many people angry about him. But, despite that, he has amazing zoning and approaching options. He can get in-and out-of places in a blink of an eye, and when used right, is easily one of the best characters in the game, just a bit overused is just the problem at hand at the moment.

+1 Always has been my main throughout the Smash series, so perhaps I am a bit biased. But what I can tell you is that although he has not so good approaching options, when he gets in your face, boy, he is IN your face. Even though he is light, that is a good thing because when his combos don't work anymore; he has an easier time to break free of other combos and chains.

+1 Our boy is back, and better than ever! He even went to the gym with good ol' Ike. Although he is less than 24 hours old at the time this is posted, Roy is really, really, really good and can hold his own, despite his Melee origins. He has great air mobility, and fiaaaa everywhere!! Hiyaaa!!

-1 Sheik is, in a lot of people's opinions, the best character in Sm4sh at the moment. However, even though she has great stage control, she lacks kill moves, the only one the Bouncing Fish. Needles aren't the best option, however, and is best used only for letting opponents not be near her. And that's her problem: she CAN'T let enemies get close or else she can't do anything to do about it but to Teleport or Bouncing Fish out. But that's even more obvious. Maybe I just read Sheiks very easily, but in my opinion she is not the best character in the game and is given too much hype.

 

[Ze Diglett]

This though isnt directed at you, but I dont know why people have an issue with confusion not having any guaranteed follow ups. Although its almost guaranteed into usmash if you confuse under a platform.
You know what other characters dont have any follow ups from their reflectors?

Yep, thats everyone.
The fact that mewtwo doesnt have guaranteed follow ups from confusion isnt a bad trait. Its like a super-buffed version of every other characters mediocre reflector.

If mewtwo had a reflector, command grab, momentum shifter and combo move in the same special move, that would be broken. Every other characters reflector simply reflects and thats it, mewtwos is a command grab and an aerial momentum shifter.

The issue with Confusion is that even if you catch your opponent in it, you're put at a frame disadvantage, at which point the opponent can choose to jump away to avoid any potential follow-up attacks, or just hit you if their aerials are quick enough, with the former option obviously being the easiest and the smartest thing to do since there's literally nothing you can do about it, except maybe fire off a charged Shadow Ball to catch a landing or something. As a reflector, it barely even does work because it's so darn slow, so you're pretty much gonna have to rely on dumb luck to reflect anything faster than Lucario's Aura Sphere. At least it acts as a third jump now. I guess that's something...
It really sucks because Mewtwo would be worlds better in my book if he just gained a little weight and had more than a pixel's worth of range on his grab and made his grab stay out for more than one frame. I know it's a matter of opinion, but he really is frustrating to use, even to someone who solo-mained him in Melee. Maybe it's just that Mewtwo and I have drifted apart since then, but it doesn't change the fact that he isn't exactly gonna be hitting top tier any time soon, to put it lightly (except on the eventscrubs list lol).
EDIT:

By what standard are you measuring him having sub-par range? To me this isnt even a question. Mewtwo has good range, its not up for debate. His tilts, aerials and specials all have above average range only losing out to sword characters, dk, bowser and maybe greninja. You saying him having sub-par range is like me saying shulk has sub-par range because... I say so. Doesnt mean its true.

And comparing Mewtwo's range to Shulk's is like comparing Sheik's KO power to Ganondorf's. Mewtwo's only moves with good range consist of his tail attacks (basically tilts and 2 of his aerials), Dash Attack, Up-Smash, and the projectile Shadow Ball. That leaves quite a lot to be desired when you look at it, especially when it comes to killing (and while Confusion may beat out his grab, that really doesn't say much considering how tiny his grabbox is).

 

[LRodC]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[BnW Lock]

+1
-1
-1
-1
-1

 

[Katy Parry]

+1 Zelda
+1 Peach
+1 Ryu
+1 Roy

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

+1 (Seriously, she can do things. She's always performed well on a local-level. Ryo, Big D, and lots of others win or have won their locals/regionals and her results are improving on a national scale. Top 8 at Winter Brawl 9, Top 16 at Final Round 18, 9th at EGL, Top 8 at GOML 15. All customs off tournaments, and most of them were before the 1.0.6 patch)

+1 (Another character who's results have been improving as of late)

+1 (Trela)

-1 (Nerfed in the latest patch, for whatever reason)

-1

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

-1 (Nerfed in the latest patch, for whatever reason)

In 1.0.8?

I thought he got buffed?

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

IIRC both N-air and F-air had their damage reduced. U-air had it's damage reduced. D-air no longer meteors grounded opponents, but that means he can't Jab Lock with it anymore, apparently.

Just some things I've heard from the mod of the Falco boards. He doesn't seem happy with the changes.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

IIRC both N-air and F-air had their damage reduced. U-air had it's damage reduced. D-air no longer meteors grounded opponents, but that means he can't Jab Lock with it anymore, apparently.

Just some things I've heard from the mod of the Falco boards. He doesn't seem happy with the changes.

Taken from the 1.0.8 community patch thread:

• Neutral Air
  • Total damage 12% → 11% (second hit damage 3% → 2%)
  • Now has auto link angles
• Forward Air
  • Aerial Damage 8% → 9%
  • Landing Damage 5% → 3%
• Up Air
  • Damage 11% → 10%
  • Sour spot removed
  • Start up decreased (11 → 7?)
• Down Air Sweet spot trajectory no longer meteors grounded opponents but sends upwards

Plus he has windboxes on his nair or something like that:

I personally think that its not really that bad.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+1

-1

+1

+1

+1

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

IIRC both N-air and F-air had their damage reduced. U-air had it's damage reduced. D-air no longer meteors grounded opponents, but that means he can't Jab Lock with it anymore, apparently.

Just some things I've heard from the mod of the Falco boards. He doesn't seem happy with the changes.

Some changes he wasn't but that is an overall net buff for him.

This does change his playstyle though. Which is the downer part.

 

[Browny]

And comparing Mewtwo's range to Shulk's is like comparing Sheik's KO power to Ganondorf's. Mewtwo's only moves with good range consist of his tail attacks (basically tilts and 2 of his aerials), Dash Attack, Up-Smash, and the projectile Shadow Ball. That leaves quite a lot to be desired when you look at it (and while Confusion may beat out his grab, that really doesn't say much considering how tiny his grabbox is).

But it doesnt?

Look at all the non-sword using characters one by one. Mewtwo outranges them all pretty easily on the ground and in the air. He even ourtanges the likes of toon link, dark/normal pit and palutena with many attacks.

Out of like 54 other characters now available in this game, he solidly outranges about 34 while about 5 more being contentious since they might outrange him in the air, but not on the ground (marth/lucina) or the other way around (palutena)

 

[hype machine]

-2 diddy kong
+1 luigi
+1 pikachu
+1 falco

 

[ShortcutButton]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[ZeekLTK]

+1 King Dedede
+1 Pikachu
+1 Ness
-1 Fox
-1 Falco

 

[zeldasmash]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Sir Tundra]

Honestly I would've just waited a couple weeks after the super hype lucas/roy/ryu dlc pack but what ever.. anyways here's my vote/opinions

+1 Yoshi is a character who's overrated, but yet he's also a character who's underrated as well as being underused outside of Japan. Despite all that Yoshi is truly a huge threat. His frame data is amazing, His jab is a really good combo starter, He's hard to kill for a character his size, double jump armor, and amazing gimping tools. Yoshi is simply a character that we fear but yet also don't take for granted/underestimate.
+1 Before I talk about how good Roy is I would to give a moment of silence to the Roy Koopa jokes, for these jokes were soo good to troll FE Roy fans with and ultimately gave a good laugh from time to time............... Alright now that's out of the way allow me to tell you all the Rushdown behemoth known as

(lol I'll stop now) . Roy is a character who's not only fast but also a character who hits like a truck and racks up damage really quick. Roys Jab has gotten such a buff that it's now a really good combo starter as it could link to a grab or to a fair at mid to high %, Roys f tilt can net easy kills around 110% which is just ridiculous, Roys blazer now has super armor making it a great surprise tool/punish tool against opponents, and his f-smash kills really early and is super quick. However despite all that Roys biggest strength however is his mixup potential with his down throw. When Roy does his down throw he gets to put his opponent in a plethora of situations. If they airdodge you can simply get a regrab or take a stock by doing a hard read f-smash and if they jump and respect your regrabs/F-smash reads simply do an up-air. Theirs soo many more options roy could do that I'd have to make a 1,000 word essay just to list them all.
+1 Killager has probably the best zoning kit in the game with really good framedata to boot. His Liod Rocket/Fair Sling shot combo makes it really hard to approach, His tree is a really good defensive tool that is a tool many people respect for how dangerous it is, his nair just pops up really quick, and he has the best recovery in the game making him next to impossible to gimp.
+1 Do I even have to say it
-2 Oh diddy what happened to you? You used to be the best character in smash 4, you used to be the successor to DKs throne for Kongo Jungle. The one Dong to rule them all. But it seems Daddy Sakurai was not to kind to you my little chimpanzee. Sure the Up air/Fair damage nerf took a tole on you but what really sealed the deal was the up air range nerf hindering your neutral game. Your still good though but not what you used to be.

 

[Doruge]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Ok well im not going to play this again due to not careing for tier list

And also getting picked on for rookie mistakes



But this is a very very bad time to start this again at this time

Because

1 theres clearly a update in august

And 2 (this is how confident i am) im wagering something that dlc character 5 gets revealed at the digital direct (most likely )

 

[wedl!!]

+1
-1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Ffamran]

You know what other characters dont have any follow ups from their reflectors?

Technically, Falco can follow up with his Reflector, but it's probably character and DI specific. With the new patch, Fair seems faster - it's definitely not a frame 12 anymore - and Falco can sort of Reflector to Fair, but only on certain characters. Kind of played around while checking to changes and he can do Reflector to Fair Marth, but not Mario. Probably not a true combo - I didn't check. Reflector Void just eliminates followups and basically turns his Reflector into a slower, ranged, and maybe more powerful version of his Melee Reflector.

Oh, and he has followups to Reflector, but nobody really uses the. Ftilt or Dtilt to Reflector all work.

Just some things I've heard from the mod of the Falco boards. He doesn't seem happy with the changes.

You wouldn't be happy too if you only knew about the raw damage changes. I can't record things - only own a 3DS - and I don't have another system to compare meaning all I saw with Uair was it did 10% and had lowered knockback. It wasn't until others figured out that it was faster and people played around with his changed moves which more or less had Falco ending up with a faster damage per second in return for damage per hit. He can't boot people high up anymore with Uair, but he's going to rack up 20% with 2 Uairs quickly like Captain Falcon. Nair's autolink angles making it connect better and Fair's faster startup basically makes Falco a monster edgeguarder as he has even more safer options. Not voting or saying where people should vote for anyone. Falco's in a place where his metagame just changed to be something else. So, people will have to take a couple steps back with Falco before they can figure him out now; air game went from being punish-heavy to more juggle and combo-heavy.