Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Kielhaul]

Are we still voting? is that okay? or is it too late?

 

[Zerp]

Are we still voting? is that okay? or is it too late?

Nyope, we are voting again once Lucas is out. Feel free to discuss what you think the list will be like though.

 

[Kielhaul]

Nyope, we are voting again once Lucas is out. Feel free to discuss what you think the list will be like though.

Well in this case I believe that lucas will be somewhere around ness, because they'll have similar play styles. Plus his pk thunder will be great for tormenting people coming back to the stage. I really liked him in brawl but there were some issues, but with the removal of infinite grabs and, imo, a more balanced cast he'll do great. (I'm not saying this game is perfectly balanced BTW, I'm just saying it's better than brawl, plz don't hurt me)

 

[Morgan S. Court]

This is a personal opinion but I think tiers E, F, G, and H should be deleted.

I did some lab testing and while I admit Mii Swordfighter has quite a few drawbacks, I don't know of any character that have the speed of Robin, defense of Jigglypuff, and strength of Sheik. Sure most characters have drawbacks but I feel the very low tiers are rather misleading.

I think just having tiers S, A, B, C, and D is a bit more accurate. I do believe that capability of reading can only get you so far with a certain character, but 'D' tier can better fit characters with supposedly little potential.

 

[Vipermoon]

This is a personal opinion but I think tiers E, F, G, and H should be deleted.

I did some lab testing and while I admit Mii Swordfighter has quite a few drawbacks, I don't know of any character that have the speed of Robin, defense of Jigglypuff, and strength of Sheik. Sure most characters have drawbacks but I feel the very low tiers are rather misleading.

I think just having tiers S, A, B, C, and D is a bit more accurate. I do believe that capability of reading can only get you so far with a certain character, but 'D' tier can better fit characters with supposedly little potential.

Yes, and I can't believe this thread was made with tiers that go so low. It's mind blowing. Most other tier lists do it too. I'd take the scale you mentioned, maybe even separate B into B+ and B- if we have to. But that's it.

 

[Morgan S. Court]

Yes, and I can't believe this thread was made with tiers that go so low. It's mind blowing. Most other tier lists do it too. I'd take the scale you mentioned, maybe even separate B into B+ and B- if we have to. But that's it.

Yeah actually for a while I went through every character in the roster and categorized them into different categories based on my experience with them and my impression of their power.

There are some cases, like Ike in my impression that while I felt was easy to space in For Glory and to kill, he can really take advantage of the Battlefield platforms, giving him potency in different situations. I do not main Ike however, so I wouldn't completely know.

I could be wrong but I believe every character can capitalize on their strengths. Reading this post I see lots of replies calling Robin a bad character, but on the contrary, I find myself a rather good Robin main who is able to frustrate my friend (who has been playing since Melee as a kid) into begging for Robin to be nerfed after taking advantage of her combo potential, spacing tools, and range very well against him.

 

[Valamway]

Personally, I think the monthly Reddit tier lists have been doing a great job with the Customs Off list, especially this month's.
Obviously it's not perfect.
But better than this one...

 

[Woohoo982]

GimR is definitely not a pro. He plays better than your average casual but that's it.

And, yes, he does have excellent combos out of down-throw, but his rather laggy aerials and awkward projectile put him at a sour spot when approaching to actually get them. His lack of solid kill options is also pretty harmful, and the lack of a notorious kill throw is also bad. Being a lightweight is also a double-edged sword in Smash: you're hard to combo, but you need less combos to be in kill range. Fire also helps him escape combos, though. Dair is good at edgeguarding, but mostly it's potentially useless against the best recoveries in the game - with the top tiers having stuff like teleports (Sheik), extremely dangerous hitboxes (Ness), windboxes (DK), Super Armor (Yoshi), lots of speed (ZSS's tether recovery, Luigi Up-B, and Mario Up-B are good examples), it ends up being pretty situational, not counting characters like Rosalina can just shrug it off because their recovery's just too good.

Tl;dr: I feel he's too busy playing The Last Airbender to fix his gimmick-based play and lack of solid approaches and kill options. His position in this tier list is not unwarranted, but is subject to (slight) change if really good people appear.

The whole windbox thing is why he should be midtier.
Also,he can get two 9 judges in a row,and while dair is bad against the toptier recoveries, and his grab game is good. His chef is awkward, yes but its good for gimping. He has good combos in the air and Chef is the bane of tether recoveries everywhere.

 

[YoshiStar5000]

Mega Man wrecks several top characters. He is very arguably the worst match-up for both Villager and Luigi. He has an edge against Diddy, Falcon, and Rosalina, and a clear advantage against both Sonic and Zero Suit.

Further MU explanation-
I don't think I have to justify Luigi and Villager. I've never seen a main of either character, who actually has experience in the match-ups, try to argue that it isn't a very clear win for MM. Some early theprycrafters thought Villager's pocket would negate MM, but in all actuality it's not that effective. F-smash is the only thing worth pocketing, as pocketing anything else is just an invitation for MM to use f-smash.

Diddy: This is just my post-patch impression. Diddy's hoo-hah was what made him scary for Mega Man. Now, he's not nearly as potent because he's not killing as early. Maybe it's even, but I think MM has a slight edge.

Falcon: He lacks the tools to deal with a ranged character. He can rush-down pretty well, but pellet spam and shield grabs shut him down rather effectively. Still, this would be a hard match-up if leafstooling didn't gimp falcon so easily. But it does.

Rosalina: Remember when Zucco 2-stocked M2K's Rosalina? Before that, like most people, I assumed the match-up was awful for Mega Man. But MM has so many projectiles that Rosa can't hope to negate them all, not when her down-b has a punishable amount of end-lag. And crash bomb is crazy effective against Luma. MM has all the tools to keep Luma off stage and Rosa on the defensive. He has the edge for sure.

Sonic: One pellet knocks him out of his little spinny-ball thing. He actually has laughable priority. I used to think his ability to approach diagonally was annoying, but then I got the hang of diagonal Metal Blades and SH lemons. Also, customs help Mega Man here. Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold.

I think people have issues with him for two reasons: 1. People try to go against him like they would against any other character, which doesn't work because his speed and ability to punish across the stage makes him a unique match-up for most of the cast. Mega Man doesn't really have this issue as much, because he is a very match-up specific character. He plays very differently depending on who he's up against. 2. Just like in Brawl, there is a certain subset of Sonic main that is extremely dedicated to their character. This often seems to be more true of Sonic than any other character, and these mains make him look a lot better than he is. They just know their character and his strengths better than you know yours, and they're more knowledgeable about the match-up as well.

ZSS: This one isn't based as much on personal experience, because I haven't played it as much, but the general consensus on both character boards is that it's just a question of how much MM wins by. Is it a hard counter or just an irritating match-up? Most people are somewhere in-between those two extremes, but I rarely see someone argue that it's even and I've never seen someone argue that ZSS has the advantage.

Other MUs of note-

D3: I think MM hard counters him. One pellet reflects a gordo. MM will always win that game of ping pong. I know a smart D3 will never just toss them out in neutral, but Air Shooter and Tornado Hold (I think?) should negate their edge-guarding potency. (I'm not sure about Tornado Hold, because I've mostly just played with customs against CPUs, and not as often as I use default. But I don't see how it wouldn't. I have definitely used air shooter though.) The biggest thing is......well, D3's size. His hitbox is massive. He has a lot of difficulty getting around MM's projectile walls. It's also very easy to sweetspot up-tilt for pretty early KO's and he gets caught in air shooter pretty easily. D3's deceptively long range is one of his greatest strengths, but MM's optimal range is just outside of his and he really struggles to get in. And then he struggles more because MM's attacks are just faster. Of course, this could just be my lack of knowledge of D3 in this game. Because I think his match-ups against Villager, Mario, and Luigi are similarly awful and among the worst in the game. And it seems unlikely that a character other than Little Mac could get hard countered by 4 others in such a balanced game. (Little Mac doesn't really count, because he's weird. He's never even felt like a smash character. Which is also why I like him.)

Fox: Contrary to what you might think, this is a very close and probably even match-up. The reflector does not negate MM. The only scary thing is a reflected f-smash, but no decent MM depends on f-smash or would throw one out recklessly. Reflector has punishable end-lag and a reflected pellet or metal blade can be cancelled out by another pellet, which does not have punishable end-lag. Fox can't just lay on his reflector the whole time. Meanwhile, MM's recovery is harder to gimp (although it covers less distance), he has more survivability, and he has more KO power. One mistake could lead to Fox getting KO'd w/ an up-tilt or d-smash, whereas if MM makes a mistake he'll just take a fair amount of damage. Fox doesn't get early KOs and he also has difficulty KOing past a certain percent. He just has a lot of issues to overcome.

Sheik: Almost everyone struggles against Sheik. Mega Man is no exception. This is not a fun match-up.

Mario: This MU isn't as bad as people make it out to be, but it's definitely negative. But this and the above are the only bad MUs MM has against the high to top tier characters.

Falco: This is a slightly negative match-up. The offensive potential of his reflector makes it a bigger threat than Fox's, and he doesn't have the same issues with KOing. But, he's a low-tier character who isn't used very often. How many Falco mains are there? Not many this time around.

Samus: Bad MU for sure. Among MM's worst. Charge Shot is scary. Samus has a surprising amount of true combos. Zair can be annoying. MM will lose in long-ranged projectile battle. But, again, it's still doable and Samus is a rarely used character.

Yoshi: Even or slight advantage. Yoshi isn't comfortable in this MU. He doesn't like the mid-range pressure that MM applies so easily. SH aerials (fair, nair) and up-tilts can screw with his aerial approaches. Leaf shield, if it isn't overused, can be effective as a projectile, especially when combo'd w/ Metal Blade. It can also be good for pummeling. Yoshi has a bad grab so MM is going to be grabbing him a lot more than vice-versa. Plus, Yoshi has a crappy roll which is also nice. But eggs are irritating as hell and they can really turn things in his favor. He can potentially take the advantage in long or short range, and his recovery is hard to gimp. So I'd lean towards the MU being even; it's kind of a pain for both sides. But this is on of the match-ups I'm less knowledgeable about, and some people insist that MM wins it.

Pikachu: (I didn't mention him w/ the other top tier characters that MM beats because I think customs might change this, but I haven't had any experience with Heavy Skull Bash.) Pika can't deal with lemon spam, and he doesn't have the best KO power. MM kills him much earlier. MM has an advantage. It's not crushing, but Pika faces an uphill battle.

In Conclusion: Mega Man has strong match-ups, especially against the upper tier characters. He is extremely versatile and unpredictable. He is top 8, at least. And I believe his placement in the 'official' tier list will eventually reflect
this.

I wouldn't say top 8, but top 12- 15 is possible.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah actually for a while I went through every character in the roster and categorized them into different categories based on my experience with them and my impression of their power.

There are some cases, like Ike in my impression that while I felt was easy to space in For Glory and to kill, he can really take advantage of the Battlefield platforms, giving him potency in different situations. I do not main Ike however, so I wouldn't completely know.

I could be wrong but I believe every character can capitalize on their strengths. Reading this post I see lots of replies calling Robin a bad character, but on the contrary, I find myself a rather good Robin main who is able to frustrate my friend (who has been playing since Melee as a kid) into begging for Robin to be nerfed after taking advantage of her combo potential, spacing tools, and range very well against him.

I was thinking about the many tiers on this list and I get why there are so many. It makes voting easier and more accurate. So we should have the same number of tiers but more things should be split into + and - so that we end on C- or D. That will satisfy everything.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

Going to try and cover all points you guys made. Gauge my success.

Good points, but some notes:

TL;DR version: Don't use Chef to approach, his aerials are not that bad for approaches, and you underestimate his edeguarding prowess.

Chef is NOT an approach option in the slightest. Approaching is one of his "just OK" points because he has a decent dash attack that sets up followups in conjunction with his feared grab, which gets a comparatively large range-up from boost grabbing. Chef is a mixup with bair/fair to /b-reverse/wavebouce and maintain pressure on airborne opponents. Chef is only properly used when you have the definite advantage.

Laggy aerials are a problem for him, but fair is actually about on safe on shield as Yoshi's if sweetspotted and properly retreated. Not to mention that nair and bair and, to say the least, unpredictable on sheild. Generally you should only approach with aerials at higher percents to pop the opponent up or off the stage.

Fire is an OK combo escape option because of his high aerial mobility. You trade positional advantage for not getting Usmashed by Fox after his double jab.

Finally, when people say Mr. G&W is a good edgeguarder, dair is the least of his gimping options. It's alright against linear recoveries, but he has waaaay better options. Bair is one of the nastiest edgeguarding disjointed hitboxes and one of the most difficult moves in the game to tech and not get stage spiked. Nair, if you fastfall it, can drag the opponent downwards. G&W falls further but he can recover. It also sets up what is by far his best gimping option: Fire

Airdoged offstage, high percent kills, low percent situation reset. Linear recovery under the stage or got dragged down by nair? Hope you've got good reflexes, you're about to get a real quick stage spike if you don't tech. Just trying to get to the ledge and right next to G&W? Hope that windbox isn't too much trouble, sucker.

So yeah, we both agree that Chef is definitely not good in the neutral.

Yes, his aerials can be unpredictable (and you can also abuse them against players too eager to shieldgrab) and fair can possibly be safe, but there's no room for mistake. A lot of characters that aren't way above him have the advantage of throwing out a move, but G&W must think a lot to approach. It's not that your approach is simply bad, the point is that you have to work harder for that.

Hey, I was actually thinking on Fox when I thought about Fire as an escape option. Wonder what he can do against people that can follow him.

Well, his edgeguarding is pretty good. That's something Game & Watch excels at, and while he doesn't have Sheik levels of edgeguard, I'd probably compare him to Falco. I probably underrated it a lot because I just play G&W for funsies and that's the only thing I do to edgeguard. His windboxes can create some VERY odd situations - the kind of stuff that probably nobody can prepare for - but you can probably with good reflexes or smartness, unless you're helpless from using your recovery option. If you did that, it's your fault and you're to blame for getting edgeguarded by Manhole wind. The bair does have an uncannily short window to tech, but L-Canceling in Melee also has a tight window, and pros L-Cancel every move. The difference is that you can practice L-Canceling alone and you'll have to pay an oracle to find a good G&W main.

Also, Fire gimps? Should work on the weak-willed, but doesn't seem a too smart move overall unless I'm overlooking some bizarre property on the move.

The whole windbox thing is why he should be midtier.
Also, he can get two 9 judges in a row,and while dair is bad against the toptier recoveries, and his grab game is good. His chef is awkward, yes but its good for gimping. He has good combos in the air and Chef is the bane of tether recoveries everywhere.

Getting two (or any sequence) of numbers is strictly a nerf. In previous games, you could set up 9 to have a 1-in-7 chance of hitting. Heck, in Project M, your best odds are 1-in-3! Now, while he can possibly pull his best number in a chain, that simply means you're always going to have worse odds compared to other games - which also contributes to the weakness of being less able to depend on your 9 for kills. Also, the chance of pulling two Judge #9's in a row is 1-in-81. It's MUCH easier to pull a stitch-faced turnip as Peach. Try a third one and that skyrockets to 729. Making Peach comparisons again, her odds of pulling an item on down-B are nearly three times better. Good luck.

I have explained this above. Game & Watch's edgeguard is good, but not because of any of the reasons you mentioned. Chef is not going to gimp anyone that's prepared for you to throw hitboxes at their recoveries: in fact, if they were going to die, they won't, because you just gave them their Up-B back for hitting them. Unless you're talking about frying pan spikes, which are likely to get you killed on Chef's ending lag and are much less practical than any of his respectable moves for edgeguards. Also, what tether recoveries have to do with this? They'll just tether the ledge, quickly go up, do a regular get-up, and you're probably still on Chef ending lag.

I also talked about the windboxes above. They are a game of wits unless an innocent poor soul wastes their Up-B too soon.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Personally, I think the monthly Reddit tier lists have been doing a great job with the Customs Off list, especially this month's.
Obviously it's not perfect.
But better than this one...

Are you sure? Their recent list was **** and totally based on representation at the time and not actual potential.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

Are you sure? Their recent list was **** and totally based on representation at the time and not actual potential.

Because Diddy got hit by the mightiest of nerfs, his kill options went all down the drain, and now that customs are on he gets nothing but people like Sheik and Rosalina got even better. He's still top tier though, right, guys?

...guys?

 

[NouveauRétro]

Going to try and cover all points you guys made. Gauge my success.





Also, Fire gimps? Should work on the weak-willed, but doesn't seem a too smart move overall unless I'm overlooking some bizarre property on the move.

I have explained this above. Game & Watch's edgeguard is good, but not because of any of the reasons you mentioned. Chef is not going to gimp anyone that's prepared for you to throw hitboxes at their recoveries: in fact, if they were going to die, they won't, because you just gave them their Up-B back for hitting them. Unless you're talking about frying pan spikes, which are likely to get you killed on Chef's ending lag and are much less practical than any of his respectable moves for edgeguards. Also, what tether recoveries have to do with this? They'll just tether the ledge, quickly go up, do a regular get-up, and you're probably still on Chef ending lag.

I also talked about the windboxes above. They are a game of wits unless an innocent poor soul wastes their Up-B too soon.

OK, Fire gimps are kind of a personal thing for me. I don't see a lot of other G&W players using it. BUT THEY SHOULD. Game and Watch can run off stage under an opponent and just throw it out, generally without fear of repercussion because the opponent will be focused on recovering if you miss and you can just float back to stage. It's one of his early killing methods too. A setup I use on normal getup reads is back hit of nair->bair, double jump->bair, which is a true combo that carries them pretty far offstage. Then I fall a bit and use Fire in their direction. If they airdodged or even jump airdodged, I can go high enough to hit them. I've gotten kills at 40% with this trap. Even at higher percents it's an amazing tool because G&W can chase his enemies to the blast zone to seal the kill. Usually my opponents are conditioned to airdodge but since it's too fast to dodge on rection you can just hover under them menancingly, bait the airdodge and kill them on reaction to their airdodge. They always airdodge after getting hit the move a couple times. And how could you challange it? Pacman looks like he could challange it because of Hydrant but Fire plows right through it and murders him. So if they don't airdodge I still hit them. The only time I remember getting beat out by a non-counter was Zelda's neutral B.

Even if they're not offstage, sometimes I mixup my onstage landing chasing with random Fires to condition my opponents further.

The best part of Fire's priority is that it beats sooo many recoveries. I once killed a Falco using the Phantasm to return to stage by hitting him in the MIDDLE of it; not the startup or endlag, but knocked him to the blastzone halfway through of the move!

Oh, and here's the windbox in action;

Also, about tether recoveries; Chef doesn't beat tethers... In fact, tethering is one of the best ways to not get hit by Chef while getting back to the ledge, I don't know where that came from. BUT, if an opponent always tether recovers(poor fool) and you read when they snap to ledge you can kill them with dair into the ledge hitting them on the retraction, so DOES destroy tether recoveries.

 

[Valamway]

Are you sure? Their recent list was **** and totally based on representation at the time and not actual potential.

The May list is bad? Worse than this one?
I do not agree with you at all...

What the hell kind of tier list is built off of potential?
You can't make a tier list for what the meta will be!
Of course it's based mostly off of representation.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

OK, Fire gimps are kind of a personal thing for me. I don't see a lot of other G&W players using it. BUT THEY SHOULD. Game and Watch can run off stage under an opponent and just throw it out, generally without fear of repercussion because the opponent will be focused on recovering if you miss and you can just float back to stage. It's one of his early killing methods too. A setup I use on normal getup reads is back hit of nair->bair, double jump->bair, which is a true combo that carries them pretty far offstage. Then I fall a bit and use Fire in their direction. If they airdodged or even jump airdodged, I can go high enough to hit them. I've gotten kills at 40% with this trap. Even at higher percents it's an amazing tool because G&W can chase his enemies to the blast zone to seal the kill. Usually my opponents are conditioned to airdodge but since it's too fast to dodge on rection you can just hover under them menancingly, bait the airdodge and kill them on reaction to their airdodge. They always airdodge after getting hit the move a couple times. And how could you challange it? Pacman looks like he could challange it because of Hydrant but Fire plows right through it and murders him. So if they don't airdodge I still hit them. The only time I remember getting beat out by a non-counter was Zelda's neutral B.

Even if they're not offstage, sometimes I mixup my onstage landing chasing with random Fires to condition my opponents further.

The best part of Fire's priority is that it beats sooo many recoveries. I once killed a Falco using the Phantasm to return to stage by hitting him in the MIDDLE of it; not the startup or endlag, but knocked him to the blastzone halfway through of the move!

Oh, and here's the windbox in action;

WHAT THE HELL? No, I know Game & Watch has all the Avatar stuff, he's an odd character, but seriously, more windboxes? Wow... at least this one seems consistent. Don't know how many recoveries he could beat with that (custom Fox and Falco Up-B could probably just shrug it off on sheer length), but that seems decent, at least. That would be the kind of thing to pull off on impatient players so they get salty and more impatient.

Maybe Fire hitbox can make unprepared people waste double jumps, but mostly you're giving people their recovery moves back. Can probably also be used to linger to the edge and get One Frames on teleport/invincibility recoveries, such as Zelda, Marth, and Sheik.

Also, probably any recovery can be destroyed if your opponent sticks too much to it.

 

[NouveauRétro]

WHAT THE HELL? No, I know Game & Watch has all the Avatar stuff, he's an odd character, but seriously, more windboxes? Wow... at least this one seems consistent. Don't know how many recoveries he could beat with that (custom Fox and Falco Up-B could probably just shrug it off on sheer length), but that seems decent, at least. That would be the kind of thing to pull off on impatient players so they get salty and more impatient.

Maybe Fire hitbox can make unprepared people waste double jumps, but mostly you're giving people their recovery moves back. Can probably also be used to linger to the edge and get One Frames on teleport/invincibility recoveries, such as Zelda, Marth, and Sheik.

Also, probably any recovery can be destroyed if your opponent sticks too much to it.

There are plenty characters who can't recover after being hit by Fire because it has nearly horizontal knockback, likeor . Lighter characters likeor who have very good recoveries will get killed at 80%ish offstage outright. It's a really good tool. Also a fast ledge trump.

It's not free-the only things you get for free with G&W are 20%combos, and you have to read to even initiate those, but once the reads begin G&W gets obscenely powerful, just like pretty much any other character, maybe more so because of how early he can kill.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

There are plenty characters who can't recover after being hit by Fire because it has nearly horizontal knockback, likeor . Lighter characters likeor who have very good recoveries will get killed at 80%ish offstage outright. It's a really good tool. Also a fast ledge trump.

It's not free-the only things you get for free with G&W are 20%combos, and you have to read to even initiate those, but once the reads begin G&W gets obscenely powerful, just like pretty much any other character, maybe more so because of how early he can kill.

Well, Link doesn't have a good recovery (unless you compare to past games), and Megaman has the additional hassle of depending on an helpless-less recovery, which may also mean G&W can grab-release him. That can probably be done with and too.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Because Diddy got hit by the mightiest of nerfs, his kill options went all down the drain, and now that customs are on he gets nothing but people like Sheik and Rosalina got even better. He's still top tier though, right, guys?

...guys?

You mean because one of his moves no longer kills at 80%? Yeah, he got THE worst of nerfs. There's no WAY he's still marginally better than the other characters.
I have a feeling that 1.0.1 is going to be quite a bit different than 1.0. Especially in the lower tiers. I wonder if people have come to their senses about characters like Jigglypuff and Doc. With new faces out there like Serynder, I think this new list could actually be worth something.

 

[Mirax96]

I agree that there are too many degrees.
It makes it sound like this game is really unbalanced, when it is not THAT MUCH.

Also, in my opinion should be much higher, he's no way as bad as and ... Well, imho.

 

[Valamway]

Why isn't Doc awful?
Like, I really don't know.
I'm seriously asking.
He seems pretty awful.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

Why isn't Doc awful?
Like, I really don't know.
I'm seriously asking.
He seems pretty awful.

Because there's nothing fundamentally wrong with him aside from having short jumps, slow speed, and sub-par recovery. He also has combos and strings to rack up damage - something a lot of heavyweights and slow characters lack - and customs give him a ton of options; such as Jab Locking with fast pill (free kill moves), gimping with the Wind Cape or having better horizontal recovery with the Shock Cape, and setting up walls and throw combos (that kill) with Soaring Tornado, just to name a few.

 

[Valamway]

I do see how he benefits from Customs, but it otherwise just seems like the two true brothers are clearly superior versions of that archetype.
Why use Doc when you could use Luigi?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Why isn't Doc awful?
Like, I really don't know.
I'm seriously asking.
He seems pretty awful.

Spoken like a true (pardon the colloquialism) noob. He's pretty much Mario if Mario was a defensive character. His good projectile, high knockback moves, and deadly punishes allow him to control the flow of a match rather easily. Be it keeping opponents at bay, or just stalling for time. Not to mention he kills early and piles on damage like a ************. And to top it all of, his combo game is on point.

I do see how he benefits from Customs, but it otherwise just seems like the two true brothers are clearly superior versions of that archetype.
Why use Doc when you could use Luigi?

Luigi has a ***** of a time dealing with zoning, something that Doc, with his Cape and Vitamins, well, doesn't. Luigi is also a double-edged sword. When you know how to work around his grabs, his options get cut down something fierce.

 

[Mirax96]

Spoken like a true (pardon the colloquialism) noob. He's pretty much Mario if Mario was a defensive character. His good projectile, high knockback moves, and deadly punishes allow him to control the flow of a match rather easily. Be it keeping opponents at bay, or just stalling for time. Not to mention he kills early and piles on damage like a mother****er. And to top it all of, his combo game is on point.

Luigi has a ***** of a time dealing with zoning, something that Doc, with his Cape and Vitamins, well, doesn't. Luigi is also a double-edged sword. When you know how to work around his grabs, his options get cut down something fierce.

Well said. Plus, the Dr. Tornado, unlike the Luigi Cyclone, is an amazing edgeguarding move!

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well said. Plus, the Dr. Tornado, unlike the Luigi Cyclone, is an amazing edgeguarding move!

To be fair, the Cyclone spike is actually pretty deadly. There's pretty much no escape once you're caught in it.

 

[Valamway]

Thanks for the info.
I just don't know any Docs, so I've never seen his potential.

Sorry that you think asking for a character's strengths makes me a noob.
Knowledge is power yo; who's the one learning here?

Where would you put him on a tier list?

 

[Mirax96]

To be fair, the Cyclone spike is actually pretty deadly. There's pretty much no escape once you're caught in it.

Yeah, the first hit spikes, but it is very rare for it not to combo into the other hits of the move... It will most likely send upward. Plus, it is hard to use for edgeguard.
The Dr. Tornado instead will send the enemy torward the side blast zone, or if you're lucky, even generate a stage spike!
Remember that i'm talking about edgeguarding alone, yo

 

[NouveauRétro]

Yeah, the first hit spikes, but it is very rare for it not to combo into the other hits of the move... It will most likely send upward. Plus, it is hard to use for edgeguard.
The Dr. Tornado instead will send the enemy torward the side blast zone, or if you're lucky, even generate a stage spike!
Remember that i'm talking about edgeguarding alone, yo

Boss seems to get it all the time. It's not "rare" just difficult. And It's not the first hit, it's any hit that isn't the last. It really is powerful though, able to kill at earlier percents then Doc's. Doc's is easier to use certainly though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah, the first hit spikes, but it is very rare for it not to combo into the other hits of the move... It will most likely send upward. Plus, it is hard to use for edgeguard.
The Dr. Tornado instead will send the enemy torward the side blast zone, or if you're lucky, even generate a stage spike!
Remember that i'm talking about edgeguarding alone, yo

Actually, every hit that's not the last spikes. You'd be surprised how deadly it is against linear recoveries like Falcon and Fox. As long as you mash B, it will work.

 

[Mirax96]

Boss seems to get it all the time. It's not "rare" just difficult. And It's not the first hit, it's any hit that isn't the last. It really is powerful though, able to kill at earlier percents then Doc's. Doc's is easier to use certainly though.

Actually, every hit that's not the last spikes. You'd be surprised how deadly it is against linear recoveries like Falcon and Fox. As long as you mash B, it will work.

Well, I learned something today! :D

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well, I learned something today! :D

Good to know.

Thanks for the info.
I just don't know any Docs, so I've never seen his potential.

Sorry that you think asking for a character's strengths makes me a noob.
Knowledge is power yo; who's the one learning here?

Where would you put him on a tier list?

I don't think asking for a character's strengths makes you a noob, I think making bold statements without knowing what you're talking about makes you a noob. If knowledge is power, then I must be pretty damn strong, because who just taught you all this?
As for putting Doc on a tier list, a good place for him would be either where Robin is or where Wario is. That's without customs, of course. With them is a whole new game.

 

[tofusmash]

+1 Ness
-1 King DeDeDe
-1 Sonic
-1 Diddy
+1 Rosalina

 

[tofusmash]

Sorry, Take away my vote for sonic

 

[Diddy Kong]

Because Diddy got hit by the mightiest of nerfs, his kill options went all down the drain, and now that customs are on he gets nothing but people like Sheik and Rosalina got even better. He's still top tier though, right, guys?

...guys?

Yes of course he's Top Tier, I don't buy any of this **** that Sheik or Rosalina, or what people are even saying now ; Pikachu or Fox are better than Diddy. No they are not.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Will we start voting on june 14th when Lucas comes out

 

[Valamway]

Will we start voting on june 14th when Lucas comes out

After only a few minutes of him being out?
That seems counter productive.

 

[Golden Rainbow]

We will most probably start voting when we are sure we have every possible buff, nerf, or tweak covered.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Sorry, Take away my vote for sonic

We aren't voting right now regardless

 

[ミスティック Speed]

inb4Lucasistoptier