Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[mkwstar]

Hmm...first time posting here, let's go. Hope I understood this correctly.

-1: I think WFT certainly is below Kirby/Samus/Falco, does not belong next to Link/Lucina honestly.

+1: Probably better than Link, on par with Wario in my opinion. What is he doing in Tier 5?

+1: I get it, Luigi has been nerfed, he is not on his days of glory...but below Pac/DK? Really? Can't bring myself to agree with this, he is being underrated due to not being as good as previously, so people think he is really mediocre. He's still good!

-1: Easy choice for me, very overrated. Certainly not bad, but not as high as he is right now.

Last point, so I had to choose one...

-1: Can't hold up with Villager, Mewtwo or MK in my opinion.

 

[Bigbomb2]

+1
+1
-1
+1
+1 (sorry...)

Tough decisions yo

 

[T4ylor]

+Hard to argue she's anything but the best.
+He may have a poor recovery, but the majority of characters can't exploit this well enough and it doesn't really give him a bad match up spread. And, besides maybe Bayonetta, I don't really see him having any losing match ups. He's that good. I see him somewhere in the top 2-4 without a doubt.
+Simply belongs in tier 2. He's at least on par with Fox in my book.
-Can't see how she can be seen as number one or two with what her lopsided Meta Knight and Cloud match ups when there are other candidates whom one can argue have next to no losing match ups.
-Definitely top 15, but doesn't deserve that tier 1 position.

 

[Furret24]

~As long as you use D-throw a lot to stale it, D-throw to U-air is a great combo that can kill early and is either true or a good mixup. Generally D-throw is amazing because it true combos into a move up to 130% on most characters, so using it a lot shouldn't be a hassle. He can also kill early with his (pardon my lack of a better term) jank moves such as 9 Hammer or Bucket, which aren't as common but do matter.

Toot Toot is a very tight combo you won't get much, as the window where you can land the up air and have it kill out of down throw is very tight. Staling it helps a little, you really shouldn't be getting the opportunity to even down throw all that much due it's laughable range and our lack of ways to really set up into it. If your getting grabs a lot, either your opponent is playing neutral horribly or being too predictable. I will have to say that down throw is great due to how much damage you can get off it at low percents (it falters a lot at higher percents, but oh well).

9 and Bucket can kill early, but they're both extremely situational. Landing a Judge in the first place is difficult due to it's rather large amount of lag combined with it's bad range. Even if you do somehow land it, it's rare to even get a 9 (about a 11% chance). It kills mad early, but it's hardly reliable. As for Bucket, even ignoring how almost half the cast don't even have a projectile you can absorb (24 of 58, which goes even higher if you exclude characters who only have moves that can be bucketed under abnormal circumstances, such as Duck Hunt), the move itself is extremely laggy. It's not uncommon for an opponent to throw out a weak projectile for you to Bucket, giving them a free Smash attack on you, since G&W dies very early...

Outside of this, Game and Watch's killing game is extremely poor, especially for a supposed "glass cannon". His only reliable kill move that can take stocks early is his up smash. All of his other moves with kill power all suffer from issues that keep them from being good options. His other smashes have high startup, making them read-dependant. The issue comes in that they both have huge sourspots that have very low kill power (especially down smash), which limits their use in killing, despite the sweetspots having pretty solid kill power. His forward and down tilts kill, but not until around 140%. They're also very unsafe on shield, though down tilt does have good startup, so it can be okay for killing out of shield. His up air can kill, but the second hit is very difficult to land due to the first hit being too strong to connect into at percents where it will kill most of the time, and the windbox makes accidentally DIing into it very unlikely. He has virtually no kill setups, no kill throw, no fast kill move. I think his major killing issues are one of the things really holding him back, along with his nonexistant neutral. Being light is not a huge viability crusher. Look where Mewtwo is right now, or how about Fox? Very light characters that die early, yet are still very viable characters.

~Bacon is a pretty slow projectile, but the random angle plus how long the bacon stays out can make it a pretty safe approach option, especially when Bacon stuns your opponent's shield enough to let you grab them, and then you know the rest. Also, the pan hitbox of neutral B sends the opponent at a favorable angle for edgeguards, and the high startup can naturally bait an airdodge.

Chef is not an approach option at all. It is extremely laggy, has poor range, it's random angles will usually not be in G&W's favor, and the move is easily shielded. The random angle in paticular, which it makes the move a little difficult to predict, hurts a lot more than it helps. I've had opponents literally just run up to me multiple times due to none of my bacon going low enough. It's high endlag also makes it's where opponents can easily just roll behind you and grab if they shield it, which is what makes it useless as an approach option.

I will have to give Chef a few things though. The Pan hitbox can be used as an edgeguarding mixup for those who don't know the matchup, as the long startup of the move might throw off their airdodge timing. The bacon is also really useful in the Dedede matchup as it can deflect Gordos with no issue, effectively destroying Dedede's entire neutral game.

Sadly, outside of this, it's borderline useless due to the issues I mentioned above.

~He certainly has some bad high/top tier matchups, but then again who around him doesn't? His difference is those jank tools he has that can shift some of the other high tier matchups in his favors, especially his windboxes, up B, and of course bucket.

Yeah, you're right, just like the other characters in low tier...

Windboxes and Bucket doesn't really help in those high tier matchups though. It's his great edgeguarding and good combo that gives him the edge against a few characters, like Mario and Pikachu.

~Not to mention that up B is generally an amazing move, coming out very quickly (escape shield pressure or combos), going very far very quickly with a hitbox for great recovery and combo ability, and the ability to use moves out of it.

I will give you this one. Just be warned that the windbox on it will hurt you a lot more that it will help you and that G&W's not exactly the best lander in the game, so use it wisely when escaping combos.

~Finally, his array of disjoints, multi-hit moves, and up smash super armor improves his subpar neutral game to the point of it being tolerable and usable.

-Despite his array of disjoints, he still suffers from overall having poor range. It's also worth mentioning none of them are safe on shield, outside of tippered forward and down smash, which you really shouldn't be throwing out in neutral anyway.
-Yes, all three multihitting moves. So many. Sadly, none of them are safe on shield (except tippered bair on certain characters).
- Invincibility. Up smash has partial invincibility from frames 4 to 25 on his head. Not super armour, not heavy armour, invincibility. Why do so many people get this wrong? Oh yeah, it has terrible range and is not safe on shield, it doesn't help his neutral at all.

Game and Watch's biggest issue is his nonexistant neutral. He literally no safe way of getting in, safely hurting his opponents, or threatening them from at distance. He has no safe options on shield that aren't incredibly situational. He has no good autocancel windows (which is weird, as most characters with good aerial game have atleast one aerial that autocancels in a shorthop). His projectile is very unsafe due to it's long lag and poor range. How is his neutral game tolerable and useful when he has no good options in it?


I think he should be higher up in tier 6 (he's undoubtedly one of the best low tiers), but his flaws hold him back a bit too much to really see him go to mid tier.

I was going to upvote him here, but several people already did that for me, so...
+
+
-
+
+

 

[TimG57867]

2 to start:

- I feel Tweek was to Bowser Jr as ESAM is to . With him moving on to greener and cloudier fields, his results and meta have taken a big hit. I am aware of other ones like Vicegrip and few ones in Japan, but I don't think they've achieved the same success and I don't think his theory is good enough to make up for this. He seems like one of those characters that really relies on you not being familiar with his tricks and he doesn't have a lot of stuff he can safely fall back on against someone who knows the matchup and is playing well. For instance, at kill percent, shields become a pain for him, not helped by his bad grab. Correct me if I'm off.

-

-

+

+

 

[Dusk Pit]

-
-
-
+
+

 

[Kirby Dragons]

+
+
+
-

 

[AvengerV]

+
+
-
+
-

 

[kiddo805]

+ She NEEEEDS to go higher up!

Saving others because, frankly, I don't know who do vote for .

 

[.....]

-1 Is too high for now.
+1 Top 3 imo.
-1 Seeing it at the correct spot, it shouldn't be touched by upvotes.
+1 Tier 2 definitely.
+1 Could honestly be high tier, even higher than Pikachu.

 

[Justinian]

-1: No one has brought out his full potential yet; results are nowhere to be seen at any level in most scenes.
+1: Remind me how he's not top 10 again? Amazing speed, kill power and grab game? Bruh.
+1: A top 5 character after the patch. Has loads of results at all levels and few, if any, objectively bad matchups.

Reserving my other two votes for later this week.

 

[TimG57867]

WHOA GUYS. WATCH IT WITH THOSE UPVOTES!

Remember he just needs +5 to go up to Tier 2 and he's already got that from this page alone. I did count up since page 263 where this phase started and his score is 15+! At this rate he'll be in Tier 1 or higher! Seriously guys. Scroll back a few pages, find Browny's update, and see what people voted from there before you vote yourself. It could really make a difference.

 

[Deleted member]

WHOA GUYS. WATCH IT WITH THOSE UPVOTES!

Remember he just needs +5 to go up to Tier 2 and he's already got that from this page alone. I did count up since page 263 where this phase started and his score is 15+! At this rate he'll be in Tier 1 or higher! Seriously guys. Scroll back a few pages, find Browny's update, and see what people voted from there before you vote yourself. It could really make a difference.

People really need to be mindful of their votes in general. So many people have upvoted Link that he might go into Tier 3 by this point.

 

[TimG57867]

People really need to be mindful of their votes in general. So many people have upvoted Link that he might go into Tier 3 by this point.

I think we should get someone to volunteer and make infrequent posts with tallies for all the characters that have been voted on because clearly people just can't be bothered to scroll back a few pages.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Doesn't it say in the OP not to bother taking other votes into consideration during the voting periods? Countervoting seems kind of dumb to me, anyway. It's what we have other voting periods for.
Anyway, my votes:
+1
-1
-1
+1
+1
also lol @ everyone last voting period who was saying bayo was gonna get her own tier again

 

[LRodC]

Welcome to tier 3 despite being one of very few characters to win a national tournament, Mewtwo.

 

[T4ylor]

Browny Are you using any kind of limit to set how high or low a character can drop for each voting period? If not then I think we need one, because votes can get really swingy.

 

[Browny]

No character can move more than 2 tiers and the will only move to the bottom/top of a tier if they go up/down respectively. Since people are talking about Sonic, if he gets +15 the highest he can go is to the bottom of tier 1.

Doesn't it say in the OP not to bother taking other votes into consideration during the voting periods? Countervoting seems kind of dumb to me, anyway. It's what we have other voting periods for.

No matter how much I tell people, they never listen.

I want people to look at the list exactly how it is, and vote based on that. Because usually people will vote on characters they are the most confident on that need to be moved up or down. When people start counter-voting it is more likely they are voting on characters that they don't personally feel require votes at the moment and as you said this can all be corrected in subsequent voting periods.

 

[TimG57867]

So Sonic can't go higher than 1? Well that's a relief to know.

I still think the process would be more efficient if people were more observant so that more can be done faster. I don't want counter-vote wars. I just want authentic votes to be used more efficiently so that we don't spend so many rounds voting the same characters back and forth.

 

[Scamper52596]

Which is why I argued in this thread a few months back that counter-voting was a bad practice and should stop being taken into account all together. Literally skipped out on a couple voting sessions because the counter-voting was getting so bad back then.

 

[Deleted member]

Welcome to tier 3 despite being one of very few characters to win a national tournament, Mewtwo.

I love this thread. It's the same people who upvoted Zelda and got her out of bottom 10 because "MUH HOO-HAH" after all. =P

 

[Yikarur]

+ Sonic
+ Sheik
+ Mii Brawler
- Vilager
- Pac-Man

Browny the op says Mii's have full moveset and sizes. Almost no ruleset outside is using sizes. It should stay Guest size + moves, because this is the maximum that you will see in realistical non-custom metagames.

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1 Could honestly be high tier, even higher than Pikachu.

Ehh... This would be sooooo nice, but at the moment, I can't quite see it (this is coming from a Marth main). I think, with a couple more results, then we can maybe start talking about that.

Marth is undoubtedly tons better after all of his buffs, which people seem to forget. Marth if you ask me, is one of those characters that people sleep on. They assume he's overall average, but when faced against a good Marth, it quite clearly shows he's a very capable and viable character. Marth excels more than most sword characters of similar archetype IMO, because he can do defence. Defence in Smash 4 is very important, and other general sword players like Ike and Roy can excel in offence, but have little to show of defensive play (I will just point out that Ike is tons better than Roy though, don't think I am grouping them together). Marth still has offensive options and combos, but his ability to play much safer than almost all other sword characters is what sets him apart. Marth also has one of the best edge guarding games in the entire game, which can shut lots of characters down the moment they get off stage when played correctly.

Another plus point for Marth is that in reality, he doesn’t have trouble with many top or higher tier characters at all. The only characters in the higher tiers who should give Marth trouble are Ryu, Pikachu, and Bayonetta. There is enough evidence out there already to prove that these characters give Marth a rough time. While characters Sonic and Meta Knight can give Marth trouble and should also beat him, Marth has a few answers to their stuff, or has stuff they must watch out for. However, against all other characters like Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Cloud, Fox etc, those matchups are petty even, and are not matchups that Marth shouldn't have trouble in or worry about, because he can handle them all. Marth is even a good counter pick to some higher tier characters, such as Mario.

Overall, Marth's matchup spread is pretty solid overall. I can honestly say he loses to/should lose to only Ryu, Pikachu, Bayonetta, Sonic, Meta Knight and potentially Dedede – that’s it. There are some matchups that can swing both ways, like Mewtwo, Falcon, Mac, Yoshi and Diddy, but Marth CAN handle these characters, and beats or goes even with every other matchup in the game.

So, while I am not disagreeing with your Marth up vote, because there is enough evidence out there to support it, I can’t see him as high as Pikachu unless we start getting solid consistent results like he has recently been getting. I could see him around the area of Ike, however.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth really doesn't beat Dedede after 1.1.4. The air speed nerf bit Dedede in the arse far more than people think.

Also, I feel like his matchup vs. Ryu is decent if you were to ask me.

 

[Y2Kay]

- 1
- 1
- 1
+ 1
+ 1 (he's really good. why is he even this low?)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Marth really doesn't beat Dedede after 1.1.4. The air speed nerf bit Dedede in the arse far more than people think.

Also, I feel like his matchup vs. Ryu is decent if you were to ask me.

What? What are you on about with Dedede? You are saying Marth doesn't beat Dedede (which I said he doesn't anyway), and then state that Marth doesn't beat Dedede because DEDEDE'S air speed is bad... wat? I no speak jibberish dude! xD

I personally think the matchup vs Ryu is more manageable than say, Pikachu, or even Sonic, but examples and results prove otherwise. Most, if not all times Marth has been matched up against a notable Ryu in tournament, he's lost. It's an odd matchup that I feel Marth shouldn't have trouble in, but still loses. When Ryu is off stage and is forced to recover though, Marth has a huge advantage. I know the Marth boards will back me up also in saying that Ryu beats Marth, even if it is due to results.

 

[Deleted member]

What? What are you on about with Dedede? You are saying Marth doesn't beat Dedede (which I said he doesn't anyway), and then state that Marth doesn't beat Dedede because DEDEDE'S air speed is bad... wat? I no speak jibberish dude! xD

I personally think the matchup vs Ryu is more manageable than say, Pikachu, or even Sonic, but examples and results prove otherwise. Most, if not all times Marth has been matched up against a notable Ryu in tournament, he's lost. It's an odd matchup that I feel Marth shouldn't have trouble in, but still loses. When Ryu is off stage and is forced to recover though, Marth has a huge advantage. I know the Marth boards will back me up also in saying that Ryu beats Marth, even if it is due to results.

...It was a typo. =/

I meant to say Dedede really doesn't beat Marth after 1.1.4. Sorry.

 

[Furret24]

Marth really doesn't beat Dedede after 1.1.4. The air speed nerf bit Dedede in the arse far more than people think.

Also, I feel like his matchup vs. Ryu is decent if you were to ask me.

Not really. Dedede's recent air speed nerf is pretty insignificant. All it really does is make him recover half a second slower.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really. Dedede's recent air speed nerf is pretty insignificant. All it really does is make him recover half a second slower.

It also worsens his already terrible ability to escape aerial juggles and extend his strings.

 

[Bowserboy3]

...It was a typo. =/

I meant to say Dedede really doesn't beat Marth after 1.1.4. Sorry.

I kinda was guessing that, no worries

Even so, Dedede is still very troublesome for Marth. Dedede is the only super heavyweight in the game that virtually requires Marth to land a tipper to stand any chance of KO'ing him. Marth can land a sourspot on the others and potentially convert into an off stage KO. DK and Ganon are relatively easy to gimp due to poor or predictable recoveries, and Bowser and Charizard are a bit less predictable, but still suffer when their jumps are gone. Dedede however, has multiple jumps, and a huge, far reaching super armor recovery move. Not only would this make it harder for Marth to gimp him, the super armor just completely mitigates Marth's chances of gimping the recovery move. Tie into this that Dedede is KO'd latest off the top out of all characters, and Dedede is more a struggle than any other heavyweight.

I will say, I used to think this matchup was heavily in Dedede's favour, something as much as 35:65. Now though, I appear to have found better ways at dealing with Dedede with Marth, but I still feel Dedede can win it. If it isn't 40:60, then it's at least 45:55 if you ask me.

---

+ 1 (he's really good. why is he even this low?)

I am glad it isn't just me and @Routa that think Lucario should be higher. I love you.

 

[Furret24]

It also worsens his already terrible ability to escape aerial juggles and extend his strings.

By an insignificant amount. A 0.03 decrease is barely going to change anything.

 

[Deleted member]

I kinda was guessing that, no worries

Even so, Dedede is still very troublesome for Marth. Dedede is the only super heavyweight in the game that virtually requires Marth to land a tipper to stand any chance of KO'ing him. Marth can land a sourspot on the others and potentially convert into an off stage KO. DK and Ganon are relatively easy to gimp due to poor or predictable recoveries, and Bowser and Charizard are a bit less predictable, but still suffer when their jumps are gone. Dedede however, has multiple jumps, and a huge, far reaching super armor recovery move. Not only would this make it harder for Marth to gimp him, the super armor just completely mitigates Marth's chances of gimping the recovery move. Tie into this that Dedede is KO'd latest off the top out of all characters, and Dedede is more a struggle than any other heavyweight.

I will say, I used to think this matchup was heavily in Dedede's favour, something as much as 35:65. Now though, I appear to have found better ways at dealing with Dedede with Marth, but I still feel Dedede can win it. If it isn't 40:60, then it's at least 45:55 if you ask me.

---


I am glad it isn't just me and @Routa that think Lucario should be higher. I love you.

Dedede's pretty easy to two-frame due to his huge hurtbox size, something Marth can punish easily with something like a tippered fsmash. Dedede sucks ass at landing, so Marth can exploit it with his far reach utilt. ftilt also kills Dedede reliably most of the time while being safe on shield.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Dedede's pretty easy to two-frame due to his huge hurtbox size, something Marth can punish easily with something like a tippered fsmash. Dedede sucks *** at landing, so Marth can exploit it with his far reach utilt. ftilt also kills Dedede reliably most of the time while being safe on shield.

Marth's two frame punishes are hard to land or not rewarding enough on Dedede. Fsmash is inconsistent due to it's tough timing, and Dtilt Dedede can recover from, so while landing a tipper Fsmash 2 frame is great, it's still incredibly hard. Ftilt is not nearly as useful in this matchup as it is in all others. Dedede's Ftilt can outrange it, and Dtilt clanks with it.

While Marth can combo Dedede and trap his landings with Dancing Blade, Utilt, Uair and Dthrow, the fact that Marth cannot easily KO Dedede makes this matchup more a chore than anything else. Tie in the fact that Dedede will most likely be above 160% before a sourspot can even KO (with no rage), Dedede will be on high rage himself, often KO'ing Marth before Marth can do the same, and at an annoyingly low percent.

It's ok Marth being able to damage Dedede enough, but getting that kill can be extremely tough.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

+ This is a counter vote so she doesn't go into bottom 20 territory. I really don't know why she's being downvoted. Especially considering she actually has results. More than any Tier 5 character iirc besides like Kirby. She's got a lot of tools and is consistently in top 32 in some larger scale tournaments with great rep from John Numbers,Rin,Twerk,Waveguider,Acestar,AscWolf etc. She's definitely tier 4 worthy...more so lower half but not at the bottom of it.(I get the character in the tier doesn't matter but I will argue she's definitely tier 4 worthy)
+ Why is this little guy not higher especially with the numerous buffs he's received.
+ Why is she there?
+ Doesn't make sense why she's there.
+ I don't think he's near bottom 10. He's definitely low tier but he's not near bottom 10.

 

[Deleted member]

Kaiduru Zeta

Agreed. Wii Fit easily is top 25 material in my opinion, she's not a low tier character by any stretch of imagination especially considering her girth of results (RIN making top 32 at Genesis 3 is still huge for the character yet nobody seems to have taken the weight of it) and the amount of tools she has and decent theory.

 

[LRodC]

I love this thread. It's the same people who upvoted Zelda and got her out of bottom 10 because "MUH HOO-HAH" after all. =P

It really hasn't been that long since Mewtwo was considered bad, and then mid-tier, and then high-tier, so I guess it'll take some people time. That's fine, results from this thread don't affect anything and it's still early.

Also, I have no idea how that became a thing with Zelda. The scenario is easier to set up, but it's not like she got anything that she didn't already have. Her throw is still easily DIed and you still need to follow what the opponent does, just like pre-patch. The up air is just easier to land. I blame Reddit.

 

[Deleted member]

It really hasn't been that long since Mewtwo was considered bad, and then mid-tier, so I guess it'll take some people time.

Also, I have no idea how that became a thing with Zelda. The scenario is easier to set up, but it's not like she got anything that she didn't already have. Her throw is still easily DIed and you still need to follow what the opponent does, just like pre-patch. The up air is just easier to land. I blame Reddit.

Reddit is full of children anyways. Zelda's buffs were helpful but they didn't help aid what's a dsyfunctional character.

Common Reddit opinions:

• "//// has so much potential!"
• "won't get anywhere far in this metagame. He relies too much on fundamentals!"
• "totally goes -2 against !"
• " is bottom 10 because her CQC sucks and her throws don't kill."
• "[rant about why is overrated because "their run speed sucks", "bad grab" etc.]"

There's probably more but I really don't feel like going on Reddit again lmao

 

[Y2Kay]

Reddit is full of children anyways. Zelda's buffs were helpful but they didn't help aid what's a dsyfunctional character.

Common Reddit opinions:

• "//// has so much potential!"
• "won't get anywhere far in this metagame. He relies too much on fundamentals!"
• "totally goes -2 against !"
• " is bottom 10 because her CQC sucks and her throws don't kill."
• "[rant about why is overrated because "their run speed sucks", "bad grab" etc.]"

There's probably more but I really don't feel like going on Reddit again lmao

Actually Reddit thinks she sucks because her rolls are terrible and you can't camp with missiles.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

At least Zelda still has some strengths I guess......but I am actually quite hopeful that if another patch comes, she may get the treatment she deserves, maybe.....hopefully, she still needs it. And she also needs the results too.

Still, doesn't mean people don't have the tendency to really make some of her issues seem as bad as they are, though that's not to say some of them aren't bad, but still.
I just hope more patches come and that people can actually educate themselves about certain characters, like seriously?
People who thought Zeldas Dthrow Uair was new -_-
And that she does at least have some good things.

 

[DMWN]

Spoiler: Reference

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+
+
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+
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Votes are subject to change.

These are my final votes.