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+ Wii Fit Trainer is criminally underrated and IMO isn't mid low at all. Mid to mid high is where I would go since she has a good MU spread(Heck she goes even with ZSS as well as Sonic and beats Peach and Luigi with most of her MUs being even. - MK got a tough break.....poor guy + Kirby's been getting pretty good treatment in the buff department. He should be around mid to mid high around now. Don't know why he isn't used more + She's one of the three top characters who didn't get touched. I wouldn't be surprised to see she's the best character. - Sheik got nerfed. I wouldn't say she's the best character but she's not out of top 10.
Poor MK is really taking a beating. I really don't know how this will effect him. However, he has lost the flashy thing that made him special. That's the problem with these balance patches. They take whatever character is currently thought of as overpowered and strip them down to a shell of their former self. It's really not right.
In my opinion, they didn't need to nerf him at all. But, if they really needed to, I think adding maybe 3 frames extra endlag to Dash Attack would have been fair and wouldn't have completely changed up the character.
Anyway, I have no idea what will happen to him. I've already begun to wonder about who I'll replace him with if I actually do buckle down and drop him. He'll always be a character I play with. Just maybe not competitively. I'm still not sure, though. We don't know if he's completely ruined yet.
I get that 's representation is dropping, but why downvote him when he just got plentiful buffs? He kills earlier with smash attacks and B-air, he has less landing lag with early N-air, and his grab is less laggy and is now a disjoint, further proving his capability to do well.
(To let you know, I changed my upvote to a upvote because of the patch.)
I get that 's representation is dropping, but why downvote him when he just got plentiful buffs? He kills earlier with smash attacks and B-air, he has less landing lag with early N-air, and his grab is less laggy and is now a disjoint, further proving his capability to do well.
I think some of those are placebo. His only confirmed buffs are 2 point knockback buffs on smashes and bair.
No changes to landing lag, range, grabs, general lag etc at all unfortunately.
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As a Rosalina main since launch, it's been a strange old circle for Rosalina. Considered the best character for a while in early days, then she dropped off a bit as other characters rose and she was toned down a bit. Now, with characters falling out of the spotlight due to nerfs, we are almost back to the start, with people even considering she could be the/tied as the best character in the game...
time for my votes I guess, man that patch is pretty meta changing.
- She is still high up there, but she also recieved some end-lag nerfs
- yeah following that train
+ left untouched but he still deserves higher placement
+
-
Ok, finally time to get around to voting. First and foremost...
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+1: Now then, this is what you might call a countervote. Take it from me; ZSS's nerfs in patch 1.1.5 don't actually change what she can do or change her gameplan much at all. She still has the same throw combos for racking up damage. She still has Uair to UpB. She still has her super safe Nair on shield. She still has Nair/Zair to grab confirms. She still has Nair to kill confirms. Most importantly, she still controls space as well as she did before. Nair and Zair, and most importantly, Paralyzer, and DSmash are still the same. These still require the upmost respect in neutral. With these being the same, her punish game is also still the same. She can still Dsmash to Flip Kick you and you are dead. In fact, she got a few buffs. Plasma Whip is no longer terrible, and though Nair has very slightly less reach infront of her, the hitboxes have been moved down/angled down slightly more, essentially meaning she can hit shorter characters easier with it. Nair's lower damage makes it easier to combo it into Flip Kick and Bair from what I hear too. Yes, she has had nerfs, but they don't change her game up as much as Sheik's for example, who now has average throws as opposed to great ones, now lacks that awesome 50-50 from Dthrow, and also has her projectile/space controller nerfed in range. Yes, I do feel ZSS is no longer the 2nd best character in the game, but I still feel she is top 5. I'd say she's 4th/3rd best in the game now, as opposed to 2nd/3rd best.
With that, other votes...
+1: Definitely a contender for best character in the game now.
+1: I ACTUALLY HAVE MORE REASONS TO UPVOTE SAMUS THIS TIME YAY THANKS 1.1.5.
+1: Not a low mid tier as this list says, definitely a pure mid tier at worst.
+1: When will people realize just because there is no tipper that Lucina is bad? Please end up closer to Marth...
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I would have voted more in tier 5 if I could have, but I really wanted had to do this. Besides, I have seen a lot of votes for characters in that tier anyway, which is excellent.
On a side note, I would have given my waifu, a boost up the list seeing as she avoided the nerf hammer, and characters she loses to got nerfed, but I don't want to un-neededly vote her up when others are already doing it.
I would have also down voted , but like with Rosalina, I don't want to sway the votes to a mass movement. Sheik should only drop down a fair few spaces. Still has top 10, just not top 5 potential in my eyes.
Actually, you're wrong. He did get buffs to grab and N-air. It's been posted on Reddit and you can confirm it for yourself by just playing Pac-Man. His grab is significantly faster and his N-air now true combos into D-smash from 10%-100%. I don't even play Pac-Man, so I have no incentive to hope desperately that he got buffed. You should really do your research before you make a statement.
Actually, you're wrong. He did get buffs to grab and N-air. It's been posted on Reddit and you can confirm it for yourself by just playing Pac-Man. His grab is significantly faster and his N-air now true combos into D-smash from 10%-100%. I don't even play Pac-Man, so I have no incentive to hope desperately that he got buffed. You should really do your research before you make a statement.
Actually, you're wrong. He did get buffs to grab and N-air. It's been posted on Reddit and you can confirm it for yourself by just playing Pac-Man. His grab is significantly faster and his N-air now true combos into D-smash from 10%-100%. I don't even play Pac-Man, so I have no incentive to hope desperately that he got buffed. You should really do your research before you make a statement.
Everyone has opinions. This is the same guy that says Shulk is in the top half of the cast when literally nobody else does.
We all have biases. I'd say Shiek is still the best or 2nd best. Definitely not suddenly worse than ZSS and Rosa.
Everyone has opinions. This is the same guy that says Shulk is in the top half of the cast when literally nobody else does.
We all have biases. I'd say Shiek is still the best or 2nd best. Definitely not suddenly worse than ZSS and Rosa.
ZeRo's word is not gospel. None of us have that authority.
Shiek has so many tools that the loss of grab 50/50s really just doesn't mean that much. She still has the safest moveset in the game and great kill confirms from FAir, NAir and needles into BF. She can still carry you across the stage with the FAir train. She still has her amazing recovery. She still has everything except for a kill confirm and that's it.
I get that "oh, ZeRo's the best so his opinion matters and mine doesn't", but ZeRo is not always right, and in my opinion he's wrong; Shiek is still the best, and if she's not she just barely gets edged out by Bayo.
ZeRo's word is not gospel. None of us have that authority.
Shiek has so many tools that the loss of grab 50/50s really just doesn't mean that much. She still has the safest moveset in the game and great kill confirms from FAir, NAir and needles into BF. She can still carry you across the stage with the FAir train. She still has her amazing recovery. She still has everything except for a kill confirm and that's it.
I get that "oh, ZeRo's the best so his opinion matters and mine doesn't", but ZeRo is not always right, and in my opinion he's wrong; Shiek is still the best, and if she's not she just barely gets edged out by Bayo.
I appreciate this opinion. However, what made Sheik so dominating before was the fact she could very easily and simply rack up the damage on you, and KO you surprisingly easy thanks to her 50-50. With that no longer an option, Sheik now has a very hard time KO'ing outside of edgeguards. It's all good being able to rack up the damage, but not being able to kill quickly or easily is a huge blow for her.
And let's not not jump the gun either. Most of Sheik' B&B's have been toned down. A lot of her tools do indeed still work, but what hits hard in this department is that they either stop working much earlier, don't work when you need them to, or outright just don't work now. Fthrow to Bouncing Fish is easier to avoid now. Her F/Dthrows still work, but it's harder to get a follow up off of them at higher percents. Needles are still a fantastic, but their lower range is of course a bummer. I mentioned that Sheik had trouble killing. At least before, near the edge, Fthrow into Fair could work at percents when Fair killed. Now, Fthrow launches too high, so even that isn't an option.
The main reason Sheik was ranked so low in Brawl was because of her poor KO power. Now I am not saying Sheik should be as low relative to her position in Brawl, as she has gained many more positives in the transition. However, a character that cannot KO effectively at all should not be in the top 5, not when we have Bayonetta, Rosalina, Cloud, ZSS for example, all of whom can combo easily, but can actually KO better than Sheik, and all have better confirms.
Personally, Sheik being outside of top 10 seems absurd at this moment in time. However, I don't see how she can be even be considered the best character in the game anymore, let alone in the top 5.
Poor MK is really taking a beating. I really don't know how this will effect him. However, he has lost the flashy thing that made him special. That's the problem with these balance patches. They take whatever character is currently thought of as overpowered and strip them down to a shell of their former self. It's really not right.
In my opinion, they didn't need to nerf him at all. But, if they really needed to, I think adding maybe 3 frames extra endlag to Dash Attack would have been fair and wouldn't have completely changed up the character.
Anyway, I have no idea what will happen to him. I've already begun to wonder about who I'll replace him with if I actually do buckle down and drop him. He'll always be a character I play with. Just maybe not competitively. I'm still not sure, though. We don't know if he's completely ruined yet.
Tell me, have you ever tried to pull off his U-air combos? They were by no means easy and only the top echelon of MK's or ones that had practiced for many months could pull them off consistently. It's not like ZSS where pretty much anyone and their mother can do D-throw -> U-air -> U-Special as if it's nothing. People don't realize how hard it was for us. Instead they just watch the Leo vs. Mr. R set and say "MK is so OP, pls nerf Sakurai!".
This is why people should do their research and try this stuff out for themselves before they whine and get perfectly fine characters destroyed like this.
Tell me, have you ever tried to pull off his U-air combos? They were by no means easy and only the top echelon of MK's or ones that had practiced for many months could pull them off consistently. It's not like ZSS where pretty much anyone and their mother can do D-throw -> U-air -> U-Special as if it's nothing. People don't realize how hard it was for us. Instead they just watch the Leo vs. Mr. R set and say "MK is so OP, pls nerf Sakurai!".
This is why people should do their research and try this stuff out for themselves before they whine and get perfectly fine characters destroyed like this.
Tell me, have you ever tried to pull off his U-air combos? They were by no means easy and only the top echelon of MK's or ones that had practiced for many months could pull them off consistently. It's not like ZSS where pretty much anyone and their mother can do D-throw -> U-air -> U-Special as if it's nothing. People don't realize how hard it was for us. Instead they just watch the Leo vs. Mr. R set and say "MK is so OP, pls nerf Sakurai!".
This is why people should do their research and try this stuff out for themselves before they whine and get perfectly fine characters destroyed like this.
-1: Pikachu is a great character; no one can deny that, but his representation at the top level is just not there. All he has is ESAM and he hasn't been doing amazingly so far this year. -1: Similar to Pikachu, while he has heaps of potential, he has considerably fewer top level results than some of the characters below him in tier 3. +1: After the patch, ZSS and MK, two relatively difficult matchups for Fox, were nerfed, along with Sheik, leaving him with even fewer bad matchups across the board than he already had. +1: He's in a similar position to Fox. Sheik, who gave him a hard time, has been toned down, and other characters, like ZSS and Cloud, who are currently above him, have also been taken down a notch, indirectly buffing the hedgehog. +1: With the top 2 getting hit by the patch, I feel like Rosalina and Bayonetta can now compete for #1.
I know. I'm just angry and so I made an exaggeration. However, in response to apparently fuz
, the percent window was small and it was hard to pull of so I don't think his death combo needed a nerf. Simple as that.
lmao I have a feeling we need to put a cap at how many tiers a character can rise or fall in a round. I downvoted pika too but now I just feel bad for being one of the first to do it this round.
I honestly think Pikachu is Top 10 too but Pikachu in a sense does look like a mid tier character atm rather than a top tier, let alone a high tier character.
I honestly think Pikachu is Top 10 too but Pikachu in a sense does look like a mid tier character atm rather than a top tier, let alone a high tier character.
Mid tier sounds like a stretch, imo. ESAM still does well with Pikachu, even if he's pretty much the only top rep.
Right now, Pikachu seems to be within the Top10/Top 15 range. While few in number, in terms of quality, Pikachu's top level results are more similar to the characters in Tier 3 than of the characters afterwards. When actually ordering the list, putting him at like the tail end or somewhere around there seems ideal.
Mid tier sounds like a stretch, imo. ESAM still does well with Pikachu, even if he's pretty much the only top rep.
Right now, Pikachu seems to be within the Top10/Top 15 range. While few in number, in terms of quality, Pikachu's top level results are more similar to the characters in Tier 3 than of the characters afterwards. When actually ordering the list, putting him at like the tail end or somewhere around there seems ideal.
I still think Pikachu highly but even I myself is doubting Pikachu because there are so many visible problems with him. Sure he has totally excellent recovery and neutral game but he loses to those who outrange, can KO him easily, or outclass him, and before 1.1.5, there are like 10 or so characters who said outclass him.
I also think his matchups are so-so. He does great against Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina? So? He loses to Sheik, Cloud, Corrin, Meta Knight, Mario, Ness, and Fox.
I still think Pikachu highly but even I myself is doubting Pikachu because there are so many visible problems with him. Sure he has totally excellent recovery and neutral game but he loses to those who can space him well or outclass him, and before 1.1.5, there are like 10 or so characters who said outclass him.
Honestly, range is not a huge issue. The matchups most Pikachu mains complain aren't usually against people with more range such as swordfighters. That's because the extra range only really plays a role when trying to trade aerials. Simply taking a more grounded approach with shield and using aerials once you can punish and get in subverts that issue. (And if we wanna be technical, Pikachu has a projectile, which means he has more range than a typical swordfighter.)
Even against zoners in general, they can't box in Pikachu well. Aside from simply walking and shielding to beat projectiles, QA is good at breaking neutral, quickly converting the hit into combos, and escaping pressure, resetting neutral. So being outranged isn't the problem.
That being said, the thing that holds Pikachu back is the additional risk because he's light. Not knowing what to do or choosing a suboptimal option from your plethora of choices can make the match infinitely more difficult. So why get punished for making mistakes when there are safer characters like Sheik and ZSS? Even if Pikachu had the potential to be Top 3, for example, you're never gonna see much of him. This demand for extensive knowledge and high learning curve then leads to a smaller player base, which, together, have a huge impact on his position in a tier list.
If I had to point to one thing that holds him back the most, it'd definitely be this. With all that in mind, I think there are quite a few (like 5-10?) prepatch characters better than him, and, hey, maybe even postpatch, I can't say for sure yet. Even then, I still think mid tier is underrating him, even by the standards of his current performance.
I also think his matchups are so-so. He does great against Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina? So? He loses to Sheik, Cloud, Corrin, Meta Knight, Mario, Ness, and Fox.
General opinions go: Was thought to be even or slightly advantaged for Pikachu before the patch. It could solidly be in his favor now. Potentially. It depends on how ZSS's meta develops now. Yeah, Pikachu mains see it as even to slightly advantaged for Pikachu. Opinions ranged from slightly disadvantaged to even. It could be even or better now due to the patch. Or still disadvantaged depending on how her meta develops. Range, again is not that big of an issue. The hardest part about this matchup is that Cloud's dair could catch a QA if you're not careful. And there are so many ways to edgeguard Cloud, it's not even funny. Pikachu mains usually rate it as even or slightly in Pikachu's favor. I have not heard any Pikachu main say this was anything worse than even. Again, range doesn't play a huge issue unless Corrin can catch you with a nair and initiate his/her combos. However, patient and careful play can avoid this issue. Relying on one approach option (specificlally SH Fair) is generally what causes aggressive Pikachu mains to have a bad time against characters with more range. Also bair and dair are both good at gimping Corrin. Meta Knight is better at killing (probably still pretty decent at that even after the patch) while Pikachu has the better neutral. Both are pretty difficult to edgeguard. The MU ratio have generally ranged from slightly in MK's favor to slightly in Pikachu's favor. Yep, definitely a bad matchup. Just how bad? This matchup is probably the biggest obstacle for Pikachu right now. Possibly the second biggest obstacle. Like with MK, opinions range from slightly disadvantaged to slightly advantaged. Both are good at dealing damage. Pikachu has better edgeguarding capabilities. They both can struggle with killing though I think Fox has a slight advantage here.
Advantage for Pikachu:
Even:
Disadvantage for Pikachu:
(Based on prepatch)
I appreciate this opinion. However, what made Sheik so dominating before was the fact she could very easily and simply rack up the damage on you, and KO you surprisingly easy thanks to her 50-50. With that no longer an option, Sheik now has a very hard time KO'ing outside of edgeguards. It's all good being able to rack up the damage, but not being able to kill quickly or easily is a huge blow for her.
And let's not not jump the gun either. Most of Sheik' B&B's have been toned down. A lot of her tools do indeed still work, but what hits hard in this department is that they either stop working much earlier, don't work when you need them to, or outright just don't work now. Fthrow to Bouncing Fish is easier to avoid now. Her F/Dthrows still work, but it's harder to get a follow up off of them at higher percents. Needles are still a fantastic, but their lower range is of course a bummer. I mentioned that Sheik had trouble killing. At least before, near the edge, Fthrow into Fair could work at percents when Fair killed. Now, Fthrow launches too high, so even that isn't an option.
The main reason Sheik was ranked so low in Brawl was because of her poor KO power. Now I am not saying Sheik should be as low relative to her position in Brawl, as she has gained many more positives in the transition. However, a character that cannot KO effectively at all should not be in the top 5, not when we have Bayonetta, Rosalina, Cloud, ZSS for example, all of whom can combo easily, but can actually KO better than Sheik, and all have better confirms.
Personally, Sheik being outside of top 10 seems absurd at this moment in time. However, I don't see how she can be even be considered the best character in the game anymore, let alone in the top 5.
While, again, I agree that the loss of grab 50/50s is a major blow to the character, the character still doesn't have much in terms of killing problems due to her best and most reliable moves all linking into Bouncing Fish at kill %. None of the characters you mentioned have guaranteed kill confirms from throws (other than ZSS), and only Rosa has a 50/50 to my knowledge. Sure, these characters have other means of KOing and all (except maybe Cloud) of them probably KO more easily than Shiek, but this is still the character with a huge disjoint FAir that autocancels on frame 11, has some of the best general mobility in this game, has one of the top 5 recoveries in the game, some of the best edgeguarding, some of the best general frame data...to say Shiek isn't even top 5 is rediculous. The needle nerf isn't even much of a problem, and Shiek is still the most versatile character in the game.
I can see Shiek struggling against ZSS and Bayo now due to her problems killing and her edgeguarding being mostly invalidated by how good both of their recoveries are. However, every other top tier MU is still without a doubt in Shiek's favor, and a character with only 2 or three even/bad matchups out of 57 other characters is still top 5 without a doubt.
Keep in mind that there are other characters with throw games worse than Shiek (Cloud, Fox) who have worse frame data and speed (with just a bit more relevant power) but still are top tier.
This is not like the Diddy nerf. Shiek never had a hoo-hah. It was a reliable 50/50 that KO'd well over 100 percent, not a guaranteed combo that KOs at 80. Shiek's needles were barely nerfed compared to the nerfing of Diddy's most invaluable tools (the banana nerf to where it goes away if it hits a shield once, and Up Air being nerfed so hard to where it's nearly unusable). Her frame data is still 100% intact, and that's one of the biggest reasons why the character is so good.
Shiek is still top 3. There's no possible way that she isn't.
Giving whatever he's holding back the benefit of the doubt, there might still be hope for Sheik's future. I'd rather just wait and see what happens before I jump to conclusions.
Whether or not Sheik is still top 5, does she and Zero Suit Samus still deserve their own tier? I honestly think this patch has weakened them enough to justify merging Tier 1 and Tier 2. Plus it would bring us back to 7 tiers which I feel was ideal as it essentially could go:
1. Top
2. High
3. High Mid
4. Mid
5. Low Mid
6. Low
7. Bottom
In general 8 tiers always seemed superfluous to me and after this patch I think it'd be appropriate for Tier 1 to have 4 characters.
Like I said, let's not jump to conclusions. Give it time. I'm just taking everything I see at face value and making a weighted summary. Remember, Sheik still had some of the best frame data and edge guarding in Brawl, but that didn't get her very far did it?
-1 Those nerfs hit her pretty hard but she's still top 10 IMO
-1 Counter nerf + Slower run speed means a lot of options were taken from them, I feel
+1 Regardless of her nerfs, witch time is still extremely powerful, you can't just mindlessly spam it whenever you feel like it. She wasn't hit as hard as Sheik I'd say but I think that she's easily the best character in this game along with Rosaluma
+1 I get that Yoshi hasn't gotten a lot of results in tournaments, but if we're going as him as a character some of his worst match ups (MK, Sheik) have been toned down. I think if someone wants to pick him up they might have an easier time now than they did in earlier patches
+1 Though he isn't the powerhouse he used to be, Diddy still has options to keep in him in top 10, if not 5 now depending on where Sheik is put after the nerfs. Down throw is still good, Fsmash still catches people off guard, and banana is an excellent tool. I still think Diddy is an amazing character that we might be seeing more now
-1 Those nerfs hit her pretty hard but she's still top 10 IMO
-1 Counter nerf + Slower run speed means a lot of options were taken from them, I feel
+1 Regardless of her nerfs, witch time is still extremely powerful, you can't just mindlessly spam it whenever you feel like it. She wasn't hit as hard as Sheik I'd say but I think that she's easily the best character in this game along with Rosaluma
+1 I get that Yoshi hasn't gotten a lot of results in tournaments, but if we're going as him as a character some of his worst match ups (MK, Sheik) have been toned down. I think if someone wants to pick him up they might have an easier time now than they did in earlier patches
+1 Though he isn't the powerhouse he used to be, Diddy still has options to keep in him in top 10, if not 5 now depending on where Sheik is put after the nerfs. Down throw is still good, Fsmash still catches people off guard, and banana is an excellent tool. I still think Diddy is an amazing character that we might be seeing more now
For Corrin, none of the nerfs you mentioned hurt her competitive gameplay as counter is not reliable and the run speed difference is as small as the difference between Jigglypuff in the first version of Smash 4 to our current version
+ Wii Fit Trainer is criminally underrated and IMO isn't mid low at all. Mid to mid high is where I would go since she has a good MU spread(Heck she goes even with ZSS as well as Sonic and beats Peach and Luigi with most of her MUs being even. 
This matchup is probably the biggest obstacle for Pikachu right now.
