Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

This patch was good for me. and are unchanged which isn't bad. didn't get anyhting but she didn't get nerfed, again, fine. Though didn't get anything overly significant like better throws or better Fair, the Dancing Blade change is welcomed, I use that move quite a lot.

Finally, other characters that I just enjoy using, including , , and all got buffs, and nobody else got nerfed. Yay!

I posted this in the patch thread too, but for anyone interested here, Mewtwo's movement speed has increased ever so slightly!

 

[aεrgiα]

My god, Lucas has normal grab frame data on a tether. What is this stupidity?

well as a lucas main i may be extremely bias, but i dont think its that stupid, especially when normal(non tether grabs) could outrange lucas grab... i think bowsers and dk pivot grab both outranged lucas... the range on the grabreally is pitiful, and really u didnt get any advantages of it being atether aside from the recovery aspect and the worse frame data. did they over do it? i dont know, its definitely an amazing buff, but looking at how bad lucas' neutral is i thinkthis buff was needed :/ though the nair change seems ridiculously good... getting 42%/43% off of a throw at 0% is amazing

i think most buffed/ most useful buffs go either to lucas or bowser this patch, bc bowsers buffs are also amazing o.O

 

[Bowserboy3]

well as a lucas main i may be extremely bias, but i dont think its that stupid, especially when normal(non tether grabs) could outrange lucas grab... i think bowsers and dk pivot grab both outranged lucas... the range on the grabreally is pitiful, and really u didnt get any advantages of it being atether aside from the recovery aspect and the worse frame data. did they over do it? i dont know, its definitely an amazing buff, but looking at how bad lucas' neutral is i thinkthis buff was needed :/ though the nair change seems ridiculously good... getting 42%/43% off of a throw at 0% is amazing

i think most buffed/ most useful buffs go either to lucas or bowser this patch, bc bowsers buffs are also amazing o.O

Bowser's buff is indeed incredible. However, I would also say that Mewtwo got arguably the best buffs in this patch. All his aerials have decreased landing lag by 3-4 frames. He might be able to perform some true combos or have better trapping ability with his aerials now. Also, lots of his moves have had hitbox changes. It's unclear what they do as of yet, but looking at the data, it seems to mean the moves will hit a bit easier now. Mewtwo also gets less recoil on both grounded and aerial Shadow Ball, and though unconfirmed by anyone else yet, his ground movement speed is slightly faster.

 

[Deleted member]

Is nobody talking about the buffs or got?

Zard's dash attack now sends at a more favorable angle for follow-ups and makes it a good combo starter like Samus', and Mii Gunner's second bit of dsmash now sends at a near semi-spike angle.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowser's Flying Slam also apparently got invincibility during the grab and flip. No more dying from grabbing Toon Link with a bomb and dying because it explodes mid jump.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser's Flying Slam also apparently got invincibility during the grab and flip. No more dying from grabbing Toon Link with a bomb and dying because it explodes mid jump.

Being a Bowser main since launch, all these buffs have made me ridiculously happy. Thanks for the early Christmas present, Daddy Sakurai. <3

These changes are enough to bring him up a tier, especially with him having a proper combo throw AND kill confirm out of it. We gotta bring the Koo-Pah to tournaments everywhere like the Ding Dong!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Being a Bowser main since launch, all these buffs have made me ridiculously happy. Thanks for the early Christmas present, Daddy Sakurai. <3

These changes are enough to bring him up a tier, especially with him having a proper combo throw AND kill confirm out of it. We gotta bring the Koo-Pah to tournaments everywhere like the Ding Dong!

Koo-Pah, I love it!

However, I was attempting some combos with him out of that throw earlier, but I couldn't get anything to register as true... what are you getting?

 

[Deleted member]

Koo-Pah, I love it!

However, I was attempting some combos with him out of that throw earlier, but I couldn't get anything to register as true... what are you getting?

From my post on last page:

up tilt > up tilt > nair/fair/bair at low percents. You can get a lucky third up tilt on fastfallers, and following up with all hits of nair makes a clean 40-47% damage.

It combos into Whirling Fortress at low percents, and all of his smash attacks. You can also do Flying Slam instead. Mix it up, yo!

At around over 90%ish, up throw leads up a KO confirm with up air, no matter the DI.

 

[Xandercosm]

Where's the list of all buffs and where is Cloud on the tier list?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Charizard's been getting so many buffs that I really think that he needs to be moved up to at least the same tier as Ike. There's no way that he's worse than DK anymore, especially with customs; he's second to Ike as best heavy now, and possibly might even surpass him in some ways.

I'm really thinking that Charizard is at worst mid-tier now thanks to all the buffs he's been getting recently; he was buffed last patch and he's been buffed this patch, too. All of his big issues are gone (Flare Blitz does a consistent 5% now, his aerials have really low landing lag and his higher jumps give him a better recovery, not to mention the combo throw he got last patch).

There's no way he's worse than DK.

 

[Routa]

Where's the list of all buffs and where is Cloud on the tier list?

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/#post-20604334

 

[Xandercosm]

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/#post-20604334

Thanks.

 

[Routa]

I think it is a bit too early to judge how big of a impact new patch have made to placing of the characters. I do agree with Zard going higher along with Bowser and Mewtwo. Also the list needs a lot of minor tweaking *cough* Miis *cough*. If you ask me we could start voting again after the New Year's Day, but ofc leave Cloud out. And once the other new characters come we could vote again, but now include Cloud and leave new characters outside the voting.

 

[Xandercosm]

I think it is a bit too early to judge how big of a impact new patch have made to placing of the characters. I do agree with Zard going higher along with Bowser and Mewtwo. Also the list needs a lot of minor tweaking *cough* Miis *cough*. If you ask me we could start voting again after the New Year's Day, but ofc leave Cloud out. And once the other new characters come we could vote again, but now include Cloud and leave new characters outside the voting.

For fun, why don't we all take guesses at where Cloud will be on the tier list.

My guess is low-mid tier. He has no combos, no throw followups, weak kill power, and potentially the worst recovery in the game. But, he also has nearly lagless aerials and his charge-up move (limit break) is also completely lagless. So, yeah, I'm guessing low-mid.

 

[aεrgiα]

I think it is a bit too early to judge how big of a impact new patch have made to placing of the characters. I do agree with Zard going higher along with Bowser and Mewtwo. Also the list needs a lot of minor tweaking *cough* Miis *cough*. If you ask me we could start voting again after the New Year's Day, but ofc leave Cloud out. And once the other new characters come we could vote again, but now include Cloud and leave new characters outside the voting.

i think we could include cloud even, i mean as ive said before, the voting will go on for a long time, so his placement would eventually even out... not that it makes much difference but i think that if we leave out cloud, then 1) there are gonna be a lot of butthurt people who want to vote on him and, more importantly, 2) we would have to decide after which point we can vote on him, basically opening the discussion of "when do we know enough about the character to vote on their placement" and considering theres still people saying "the game has only been out a year, we dont know enough about the game so any tier lists are stupid"
i can already imagine the fun discussion that will come when we have to decide when to include cloud in the voting, and including him from the start(although most votes on him will be stupid/incorrect due to lack of knowledge) would prevent these needless discussions and in the long run they wouldnt effect the tier list negatively.

also, its funny everyones saying they will pick up bayonetta when she comes out( and its hype as F that she included, this was the character i voted for) and complaining about corrins inclusion, but ill be honest if corrin plays anything like the trailer when (s)he comes out, ima pick her/him up bc that moveset looks really awesome!!

 

[Xandercosm]

i think we could include cloud even, i mean as ive said before, the voting will go on for a long time, so his placement would eventually even out... not that it makes much difference but i think that if we leave out cloud, then 1) there are gonna be a lot of butthurt people who want to vote on him and, more importantly, 2) we would have to decide after which point we can vote on him, basically opening the discussion of "when do we know enough about the character to vote on their placement" and considering theres still people saying "the game has only been out a year, we dont know enough about the game so any tier lists are stupid"
i can already imagine the fun discussion that will come when we have to decide when to include cloud in the voting, and including him from the start(although most votes on him will be stupid/incorrect due to lack of knowledge) would prevent these needless discussions and in the long run they wouldnt effect the tier list negatively.

also, its funny everyones saying they will pick up bayonetta when she comes out( and its hype as F that she included, this was the character i voted for) and complaining about corrins inclusion, but ill be honest if corrin plays anything like the trailer when (s)he comes out, ima pick her/him up bc that moveset looks really awesome!!

Bayonetta was even more disappointing to me than Corrin, actually. What an awful character inclusion. Especially when there were so many more deserving characters. Lucky for you, though.

But, I agree on Cloud. Maybe we should just start voting for him from day uno and see how it evolves. I dunno.

 

[aεrgiα]

For fun, why don't we all take guesses at where Cloud will be on the tier list.

My guess is low-mid tier. He has no combos, no throw followups, weak kill power, and potentially the worst recovery in the game. But, he also has nearly lagless aerials and his charge-up move (limit break) is also completely lagless. So, yeah, I'm guessing low-mid.

i think mid tier, hes got a huge weakness to shields, his approach game is meh and limit break, while good, usually wont be used that much because its desperately needed for recovery purposes. i will disagree with "no kill power" though, his down b is crazy, dsmash is fast, fsmash is stupidly powerful, limitbreak up b kills (oos too) his back air is quite strong and looks like it ac from a short hop, hes got 2 really powerful spikes with pretty good hitboxes and uair is godlike, it may not kill that early but damn is that move good and it can combo into itself and utilt. i think his biggest issue, which will hold him back a ton is limit break because while its really good, often times u want to save it for the right moment(down b read for the kill, up b for the recovery or oos killing option etc) and also to keep the stat boost it gives (dont ask me what exactly it changes but sakurai said in the direct it boosts his "stats" slightly) but on the flip side this means that in a lot of situations you dont have access to your specials or you have to "waste" a potential game changing option

 

[Xandercosm]

i think mid tier, hes got a huge weakness to shields, his approach game is meh and limit break, while good, usually wont be used that much because its desperately needed for recovery purposes. i will disagree with "no kill power" though, his down b is crazy, dsmash is fast, fsmash is stupidly powerful, limitbreak up b kills (oos too) his back air is quite strong and looks like it ac from a short hop, hes got 2 really powerful spikes with pretty good hitboxes and uair is godlike, it may not kill that early but damn is that move good and it can combo into itself and utilt. i think his biggest issue, which will hold him back a ton is limit break because while its really good, often times u want to save it for the right moment(down b read for the kill, up b for the recovery or oos killing option etc) and also to keep the stat boost it gives (dont ask me what exactly it changes but sakurai said in the direct it boosts his "stats" slightly) but on the flip side this means that in a lot of situations you dont have access to your specials or you have to "waste" a potential game changing option

Maybe someone will figure out how to use limit break really strategically. It'll be interesting to see where he goes in the metagame, though.

 

[Routa]

Maybe someone will figure out how to use limit break really strategically. It'll be interesting to see where he goes in the metagame, though.

I heard that LBC (limit break cancel) was found like couple hour after he came. So yeah...

 

[Xandercosm]

I heard that LBC (limit break cancel) was found like couple hour after he came. So yeah...

What does it do?

 

[GamerTimeUS]

What does it do?

I beli be it cancels the lag when you start a new move.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For fun, why don't we all take guesses at where Cloud will be on the tier list.

My guess is low-mid tier. He has no combos, no throw followups, weak kill power, and potentially the worst recovery in the game. But, he also has nearly lagless aerials and his charge-up move (limit break) is also completely lagless. So, yeah, I'm guessing low-mid.

Wait I thought that Little Mac has the worst recovery of all the fighters.

 

[Xandercosm]

Wait I thought that Little Mac has the worst recovery of all the fighters.

Have you seen his recovery?! At least Mac has options (side-b or up-b). Cloud literally has one linear option.

 

[GamerTimeUS]

Wait I thought that Little Mac has the worst recovery of all the fighters.

Clouds is slightly better than Little Mac's. It has no horizontal movement at all and little vertical movement. It also has no snap to ledge. The only way for you to recover is to have Limit Break which makes you go super high.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's basically like if Mac had no side-b and his up-b didn't snap to the ledge. Cloud is, probably, the most gimpable character in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Have you seen his recovery?! At least Mac has options (side-b or up-b). Cloud literally has one linear option.

Little Mac's recovery is still awful altogether though, since not even his custom specials can improve how poor his third jump is, and his Jolt Haymaker customs don't make thing any better either. Even his average air mobility and fast falling speed adds to the issues.

At least Ganondorf is fortunate that his Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists custom specials greatly improve his normally bad recovery.

Cloud's recovery might seem inconvenient, but remember that the Limit Break status can improve how far Climhazzard travels, so it's far from being the worst recovery move when you take that into account.

 

[Xandercosm]

Little Mac's recovery is still awful altogether though, since not even his custom specials can improve how poor his third jump is, and his Jolt Haymaker customs don't make thing any better either. Even his average air mobility and fast falling speed adds to the issues.

At least Ganondorf is fortunate that his Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists custom specials greatly improve his normally bad recovery.

Cloud's recovery might seem inconvenient, but remember that the Limit Break status can improve how far Climhazzard travels, so it's far from being the worst recovery move when you take that into account.

I guess you're right. It's still kind of underwhelming, though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I guess you're right. It's still kind of underwhelming, though.

Yeah it is a situational dilemma, which is why anyone who plans to main Cloud has to learn to utilize the Limit Break status effectively to avoid getting caught in any inconvenient spots.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah it is a situational dilemma, which is why anyone who plans to main Cloud has to learn to utilize the Limit Break status effectively to avoid getting caught in any inconvenient spots.

I'm sure someone will take advantage of it really well in competitive play.

 

[aεrgiα]

Little Mac's recovery is still awful altogether though, since not even his custom specials can improve how poor his third jump is, and his Jolt Haymaker customs don't make thing any better either. Even his average air mobility and fast falling speed adds to the issues.

At least Ganondorf is fortunate that his Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists custom specials greatly improve his normally bad recovery.

Cloud's recovery might seem inconvenient, but remember that the Limit Break status can improve how far Climhazzard travels, so it's far from being the worst recovery move when you take that into account.

while i do agree with you in that its definitely not the worst, and limit break helps a ton, as i said in my post earlier, this dependance on limit break for a good recovery severely limits his options because u dont want to spend limit break at mid-high %, and without limit break i think his recovery is pretty similar to ganons, except for the fact that he has a wall jump but less horizontal distance on his up b, basically without limit break, if u get launched off the stage horizontally ur probably not gonna make it back, and in this game, thats a bad recovery, this just gets worse when u consider the fact that, as xandercosm said, his up b does not snap to the ledge until after the move ends, its is extremely easy to hit him out of it(even if it trades) and any decent hit will gimp him because without his 2nd jump, hes not making it back

Edit: also i forgot to mention this earlier, but its also a problem whem recovering because a lot of times you would easily make it back with standard up b but, because i want to save my limit break, i try to recover high(just the double jump without using up b where normally i would have used up b to recover low and saved my dj incase someone hits me out of my recovery) and get punished for it i think(i know its WAY too early to be talking about buffs or anything like that) it would be great if it were possible for the player to chose when to use limit break to power up the special(maybe by holding down the b button for eg similar to ryus weak and strong normals)

 

[Xandercosm]

while i do agree with you in that its definitely not the worst, and limit break helps a ton, as i said in my post earlier, this dependance on limit break for a good recovery severely limits his options because u dont want to spend limit break at mid-high %, and without limit break i think his recovery is pretty similar to ganons, except for the fact that he has a wall jump but less horizontal distance on his up b, basically without limit break, if u get launched off the stage horizontally ur probably not gonna make it back, and in this game, thats a bad recovery, this just gets worse when u consider the fact that, as xandercosm said, his up b does not snap to the ledge until after the move ends, its is extremely easy to hit him out of it(even if it trades) and any decent hit will gimp him because without his 2nd jump, hes not making it back

Fox and Mario's D-smashes will destroy him.

 

[aεrgiα]

Fox and Mario's D-smashes will destroy him.

i was playing a (good) little mac earlier: it was hell TT_TT so yes, i can confirm this is true

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

while i do agree with you in that its definitely not the worst, and limit break helps a ton, as i said in my post earlier, this dependance on limit break for a good recovery severely limits his options because u dont want to spend limit break at mid-high %, and without limit break i think his recovery is pretty similar to ganons, except for the fact that he has a wall jump but less horizontal distance on his up b, basically without limit break, if u get launched off the stage horizontally ur probably not gonna make it back, and in this game, thats a bad recovery, this just gets worse when u consider the fact that, as xandercosm said, his up b does not snap to the ledge until after the move ends, its is extremely easy to hit him out of it(even if it trades) and any decent hit will gimp him because without his 2nd jump, hes not making it back

To be fair, Cloud isn't the only fighter to suffer from this, as even characters like Kirby, Luigi, Ike, and Shulk have similar problems with their third jumps lacking much horizontal movement. Kirby, Ike, and Shulk do get some improvement with their custom specials (and in Shulk's case, his Monado Arts), but not so much for Luigi, who needs the aid of his Green Missile and Luigi Cyclone for his horizontal recoveries.

 

[Xandercosm]

i was playing a (good) little mac earlier: it was hell TT_TT so yes, i can confirm this is true

It's so sad... *sniff*

 

[aεrgiα]

To be fair, Cloud isn't the only fighter to suffer from this, as even characters like Kirby, Luigi, Ike, and Shulk have similar problems with their third jumps lacking much horizontal movement. Kirby, Ike, and Shulk do get some improvement with their custom specials, but not so much for Luigi, who needs the aid of his Green Missile and Luigi Cyclone for his horizontal recoveries.

its true, also im going to ignore customs for fair comparison since cloud doesnt have any, but that last part is exactly the issue, kirby has multiple jumps to alleviate his issue, an option which is available to him every time, ike has his side b which he has access to all the time and his up b travels more distance afaik, shulk has his monados to improve his recovery, and while one of them could be locked due to it being on cooldown, he still has a second one (speed and jump both help his recovery) and luigi also has green misile and cyclone availbale all the time(assuming he just got launched) cloud on the otherhand does have limit break but thats only available when fully charged, and this is the issue i see with it over all i think his recovery is better than macs, i dont think its anything higher than bottom 10 recoverys in this game, maybe even bottom 5

Edit: also fun fact since i just tested this, macs recovery actually has more height than clouds no limit break up b does

 

[Xandercosm]

its true, also im going to ignore customs for fair comparison since cloud doesnt have any, but that last part is exactly the issue, kirby has multiple jumps to alleviate his issue, an option which is available to him every time, ike has his side b which he has access to all the time and his up b travels more distance afaik, shulk has his monados to improve his recovery, and while one of them could be locked due to it being on cooldown, he still has a second one (speed and jump both help his recovery) and luigi also has green misile and cyclone availbale all the time(assuming he just got launched) cloud on the otherhand does have limit break but thats only available when fully charged, and this is the issue i see with it over all i think his recovery is better than macs, i dont think its anything higher than bottom 10 recoverys in this game, maybe even bottom 5

Yeah. Honestly, I think it's the sole reason that he won't be able to stand up to high-tier characters like Mario and Meta knight with their amazing edge-guarding. So, yeah, I'm guessing mid-tier. You can't be any higher with a recovery like that. The game really does hinge on recoveries because it can be the difference between stocks ending super early or surviving to very high percents. That's pretty huge. Another thing is DI won't be as useful with Cloud, since, even if you successfully escape being KO'd from the initial blow, you won't be able to recover from that far away.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Silly , what are you doing in the kitchen?

Get back in basement tier until Sakurai says you can come out.

 

[Xandercosm]

Guys, don't be scared by what you're about to hear. But, Bowser now has a kill confirm out of his U-throw. It's time to start the voting again, mothertruckers! WOOOOO!!!

 

[A-money2121]

I better see Mewtwo jump a few tiers when voting opens back up again.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Charizard's probably going to leap up a fair amount, thanks to all the buffs he's been getting.