Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[TMNTSSB4]

The question is... Does he need to be buffed? I mean gee Pit(s) might be the most balanced character withing the game.

A tad bit more ko power, and some lag reduce in any move.

Ness though, needs a bthrow nerf

 

[Bowserboy3]

A tad bit more ko power, and some lag reduce in any move.

Ness though, needs a bthrow nerf

I think this is more an "I want my main buffed" situation. Pit is undoubtedly a very good character. Though a couple of minor buffs wouldn't be out of the ordinary, I think his KO power is pretty solid.

Agreed with Ness. I think he should still have the most powerful Back Throw, but just not far and away the best.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think this is more an "I want my main buffed" situation. Pit is undoubtedly a very good character. Though a couple of minor buffs wouldn't be out of the ordinary, I think his KO power is pretty solid.

Agreed with Ness. I think he should still have the most powerful Back Throw, but just not far and away the best.

Oh no, I'd still use Pit the most even if he was worse than Zelda(I go by favorite characters from my favorite games in every game. That's why I always play Mario in every game I can use him in), I just want little buffs from him(not really Pittoo since he's already gonna be slightly worse wither way).

 

[Furret24]

Oh look, it's partially done.

- Jab connects into infinite faster.
- Remove that stupid sourspot on ftilt.
- Decrease the endlag on dtilt. Why is it more punishable than our smashes?
- Revert hitboxes, damage, and frame data on utilt to Melee version.
- Bring back lingering hitbox on fsmash. Increase the size on the sweetspot and lower the angle of it as well.
- Increase hitbox size on usmash, notably on the backwards hit.
- Drastically increase the knockback on sourspotted dsmash.
- Make nair autocancel in a shorthop again.
- Bring back killing fair from Brawl.
- Reduce landing lag on bair and increase it's damage output.
- Give the first hit of uair set knockback so it properly connects into the second hit.
- Give dair kill power again and reduce it's landing lag.
- Give bthrow kill power.

+ Change 4 Judge to be a powerful spike with the darkness effect.
+ Make uair windbox kills always result in a screen KO.

 

[Xandercosm]

I deleted most of that post just to save space. But there are a few things I will discuss with you.

Mario, Diddy and Meta Knight do not need buffs lol. It's like me saying that Rosalina needs buffs. They are fine as they are.

However, most of what else you stated is fine, and some of the points you stated align with my thoughts too. Such as the Bowser landing lag and his Nair. Giant Punch needs to not push you off the ledge if the opponent shields it at the ledge. I like the extra start up on Wario's Fsmash. Only by a few frames, like 3 or 5 so its not OP, but its so tough to hit. I also think that Doc doesn't need huge buffs. The only real buffs I think he needs is more distance on his Up B and Down B. Aside from that, I think Doc is actually really solid. But yeah, you made some good points!

Well, I guess I thought of those "buffs" to MK, Mario, and Diddy more as "tweaks". I dunno. But the reason for the Uair buff for Diddy was cause that move is soooo weak now.

Honestly, if they buffed Doc's up special and down special, his recovery would be better than Mario's. So, I don't think that would make much sense. At, least, the buffs would have to be very small.

But, as for Wario, I completely agree. His F-smash has so much startup that it's almost better to just stick with F-tilt. And, yeah, it's incredibly annoying when you attempt to hit an enemy with giant punch and get sent off the edge in helpless fall.

 

[Routa]

I think making Wario's Dair AC out of short hop would be the best and only buff he needs. This would give Dair -> Usamsh/Up-B combo. This would improve his offensive game quite a bit. Yeah his F-smash isn't that great and Ftilt is doing it's job, but that AC Dair would be overall a better buff.

I would personally not nerf Ness' B-throw, but nerf his Uair. I mean I can understand his B-throw being so strong (it has always been), but that Uair...

I would also give a bit more KB to Mii Swordfighter's U-smash and maybe 1% more damage to his Nair.

Personally I would not give more range to Doc's Up-b. Why? Giving it more range would make it easier to punish when used as a OoS tool. Instead I would give a small vertical boost to his down-b and maybe reduce the lag on his pills by 1-2 frames, but that is pretty much it.

And maybe a bit more shield damage to Link's and Tink's bombs.

 

[Furret24]

I'm back. I hope I wasn't too greedy with Game and Watch.

- Make all smashes connect properly, as well as slightly increasing the knockback on their final hits.
- Increase duration of the strong hit on nair and slightly reduce it's landing lag.
- Make fair autocancel in a shorthop. At this point in time, there is no reason to use it over bair outside of it's slightly lower landing lag making it less punishable.
- Give the hits of uair an autolink angle like Yoshi's bair so the hits connect better.
- Heavily increase the knockback on the spike hit of dair. Decrease it's landing lag as well.
- Either give Duck Hunt the ability to hit cans in the air, or take away the ability for others to do so.
- Drastically decrease the endlag on Clay Pigeon. It's even worse than Falco's laser.
- Increase health and damage output on Gunmen. Decrease their startup too (Frame 53-89 is ridiculous).

- Reduce knockback on bthrow and uair.

:Everycharacterwithastallthenfalldair:
- Reduce landing lag on dair.

 

[Routa]

I hope I wasn't too greedy with Game and Watch.

You sure like to buff characters a lot :D

I do agree that DHD needs a connection buff to all his smashes, but I personally don't think Clay Pigeon, Gunman or his Dair need a buff. His short hop Dair is already pretty good. DHD is all about set ups and atm his set up game is really good, so buffing the gunner and the CP would like asking to reduce the lag on Mario's Smashes.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You sure like to buff characters a lot :D

I do agree that DHD needs a connection buff to all his smashes, but I personally don't think Clay Pigeon, Gunman or his Dair need a buff. His short hop Dair is already pretty good. DHD is all about set ups and atm his set up game is really good, so buffing the gunner and the CP would like asking to reduce the lag on Mario's Smashes.

Gunmen defitenly need buffs though. Clay Pigeon should have better connecting too, like his smashes, and less endlag would be nice too but unneccisairly.

 

[Furret24]

Gunmen defitenly need buffs though. Clay Pigeon should have better connecting too, like his smashes, and less endlag would be nice too but unneccisairly.

Clay Pigeon connects fine. It's the terrible 49 frames of endlag that bothers me.

You sure like to buff characters a lot :D

I do agree that DHD needs a connection buff to all his smashes, but I personally don't think Clay Pigeon, Gunman or his Dair need a buff. His short hop Dair is already pretty good. DHD is all about set ups and atm his set up game is really good, so buffing the gunner and the CP would like asking to reduce the lag on Mario's Smashes.

Shorthop dair is nice, but I'd like it's spike to do it's job and spike. It should atleast be stronger than Kirby's knockback-wise.

Asking for Clay Pigeon and Gunmen to buffed is nothing like asking for Mario's Smashes to be buffed. Mario's Smashes are amazing while Clay Pigeon and Gunmen are just okay. Mario in general is already a high tier character while Duck Hunt is easily bottom 10. What's so bad about wanting "okay" tools to be good tools?

I also (somehow) forgot something on that list.

- Make uthrow a kill throw (atleast reliably kill before 180%) and dthrow (or fthrow) a proper combo throw. Duck Hunt has among the best grab game, yet all of his throws are mediocre to terrible.

 

[Routa]

Asking for Clay Pigeon and Gunmen to buffed is nothing like asking for Mario's Smashes to be buffed. Mario's Smashes are amazing while Clay Pigeon and Gunmen are just okay. Mario in general is already a high tier character while Duck Hunt is easily bottom 10. What's so bad about wanting "okay" tools to be good tools?

I have a bad habit of giving extreme examples :S

But what I meant was that speed/power wise both Gunman and Clay Pigeon are both good moves. And let's be real... Gunman rarely gets killed due to foe being more interested in killing DHD than the Gunman. Gunman job is to stay on the field and be a constant threat as a combo breaker (just like Tink's Boomerang) and as a combo setter (like Bower Jr.'s Mechakoopa). Also no sane DHD player would use CP right in front of their foe.
Oh and I kinda agree with the kill throw thing.

 

[Furret24]

I have a bad habit of giving extreme examples :S

But what I meant was that speed/power wise both Gunman and Clay Pigeon are both good moves. And let's be real... Gunman rarely gets killed due to foe being more interested in killing DHD than the Gunman. Gunman job is to stay on the field and be a constant threat as a combo breaker (just like Tink's Boomerang) and as a combo setter (like Bower Jr.'s Mechakoopa). Also no sane DHD player would use CP right in front of their foe.
Oh and I kinda agree with the kill throw thing.

No? My Gunmen almost always die due to them being slow and fragile. It only takes one stray move to kill them. I occasionally use it to shield bait, but it's endlag makes that rather difficult. They can't break or start combos either due to their terrible startup and inability to wall physical moves. At best, they make decent projectile walls. Clay Pigeon and Gunmen are both very weak and very laggy by the way. Bad damage and no kill power.

It doesn't matter if you use Clay Pigeon next to your opponent or not. Most characters can easily run up to you and punish from a good distance. 49 frames of endlag man.

 

[Routa]

I would compare Gunman to Tink's Boomerang. Both of them can interrupt being comboed (not reliable, but they can save you), both of them are used to create traps and annoy your foe (hard to focus on you when there is a boomerang floating somewhere and you know that it might hit you out of nowhere). Also FaF on both of them is about 45.

Not every move should be "jack of all trades". Every move is good at something. For example Swordfighter's Gale Strike. It comes out on frame 23 which is decent I guess, but the FaF is 78. Yeah rather laggy, eh? Yet it is rather useful move. I would love to explain it's uses, but sadly the language barrier along with poor linguistic skills... It is just better that I do not try to explain. I really don't want you guys to start crying blood... he he...

 

[Furret24]

I would compare Gunman to Tink's Boomerang. Both of them can interrupt being comboed (not reliable, but they can save you), both of them are used to create traps and annoy your foe (hard to focus on you when there is a boomerang floating somewhere and you know that it might hit you out of nowhere). Also FaF on both of them is about 45.

Not every move should be "jack of all trades". Every move is good at something. For example Swordfighter's Gale Strike. It comes out on frame 23 which is decent I guess, but the FaF is 78. Yeah rather laggy, eh? Yet it is rather useful move. I would love to explain it's uses, but sadly the language barrier along with poor linguistic skills... It is just better that I do not try to explain. I really don't want you guys to start crying blood... he he...

No. Gunman is frame 53-89 while Boomerang is frame 27. Neither break combos. Boomerang also doesn't break at the slightest of hits.

I can see your point here, but Clay Pigeon's use is hindered by the fact that it has horrendous endlag.

 

[Routa]

Gunman is frame 53-89 while Boomerang is frame 27.

Huh? According to "dat place with some frame data and stuff" Gunman's Faf is 45 and Boomerang's is 46.

Boomerang and Gunman don't break combos the same way as let's say Mario's Nair. They can break combos if they are already out and in Boomerang's case returning or in Gunman's case waiting to shoot. As I said they are not reliable as a combo breakers, but they CAN free you from being comboed.

In my opinion they don't need to be buffed as much as some other things on him (he has hard time killing so some kind of buff to that would help a bit more in my eyes), but it was your wishlist after all.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Huh? According to [you-know-where] Gunman's Faf is 45 and Boomerang's is 46.

Boomerang and Gunman don't break combos the same way as let's say Mario's Nair. They can break combos if they are already out and in Boomerang's case returning or in Gunman's case waiting to shoot. As I said they are not reliable as a combo breakers, but they CAN free you from being comboed.

In my opinion they don't need to be buffed as much as some other things on him (he has hard time killing so some kind of buff to that would help a bit more in my eyes), but it was your wishlist after all.

Remove the link if you don't want to be infracted, apprantatly you're not allowed to post the link to Kurogane on here because of traffic, the links lessening it. That's why all the kurogane threads on the character boards are closed, the admins make Kuroganehammer remove them.

 

[Furret24]

Huh? According to http://kuroganehammer.com/ Gunman's Faf is 45 and Boomerang's is 46.

Boomerang and Gunman don't break combos the same way as let's say Mario's Nair. They can break combos if they are already out and in Boomerang's case returning or in Gunman's case waiting to shoot. As I said they are not reliable as a combo breakers, but they CAN free you from being comboed.

In my opinion they don't need to be buffed as much as some other things on him (he has hard time killing so some kind of buff to that would help a bit more in my eyes), but it was your wishlist after all.

I meant startup. Boomerang is much faster and last for a much longer time, making it far better for combo breaking. Personally, I prefer using Can for that since it's much easier to do when it's out and it CAN start exploding from frame 16, which is much faster. Preforming the self destruct is so much fun.

 

[Routa]

Remove the link if you don't want to be infracted, apprantatly you're not allowed to post the link to Kurogane on here because of traffic, the links lessening it. That's why all the kurogane threads on the character boards are closed, the admins make Kuroganehammer remove them.

I wasn't aware of this. Well I edited my post. Thanks mate

 

[LozNerd]

Buff...

JK, make 's bomb have a little more hitstun for combos. needs some starting lag off dair and I wish d-tilt had a little more kill power...maybe give wizkick a little more power and speed, its kind of useless right now.

 

[TDK]

Some buffs for my new main Greninja! [please don't nerf him again...]


- Make Neutral Aerial's hitbox come out much earlier [Frame 12 - Frame 6] [Seriously, there is no reason it should be this slow.]
- Make Uncharged Water Shuriken lock a "laying down" opponent [Jab locks]
- Give Uncharged shuriken a little more hitstun [Combo things]
- Either make Up throw a reliable combo throw or a reliable kill throw around 150% and make Down throw a reliable combo throw
- Reduce ending lag on Shadow Sneak if used in the air
- Reduce starting lag on standing grab [Frame 14 - Frame 7]

 

[Routa]

- Give Uncharged shuriken a little more hitstun [Combo things]

You realize that Water Shuriken is one of the best projectiles in the game? I mean Needles and Chakram are pretty much only projectiles that are better than Shuriken atm.

Also I do agree buffing the frame data of his Nair and grab, but with like 1-2 frames. Asking for halving the start up is a bit too much. He has great Dash Grab (speed and range wise) and that is enough in my eyes. We don't know how much such a major grab buff would impact the character's performance. I mean his throw game is far from bad. He doesn't need to be Sheik2.0

I see a lot of you guys are wishing for big buffs. I mean even a slight buff to G&W's can change his whole gameplan. But meh... They are only wishes, eh?

 

[Furret24]

I see a lot of you guys are wishing for big buffs. I mean even a slight buff to G&W's can change his whole gameplan. But meh... They are only wishes, eh?

I'm not really sure what slight buff would change Game and Watch's gameplan. Most buffs I listed would just make his moves better.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

How do I buff my already good mains D:. Whooops I messed up

UPDATED

7 tiers won by a significant margin, and Mewtwo, shulk, luigi, roy and link both got enough unamimous votes to move up, while as expected, ike went down.

For the next phase people are to vote on the order of tiers 6 and 7, you can put characters in any order you want Also you can up/down vote one character per tier. For example, my vote goes like this

6
7

+1 Mewtwo,
+1 mii gunner

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm starting to wonder if Rosalina is too high up on the rankings list. There's evidence that suggests that she does awful against Meta Knight, and if a high ranking fighter has such a negative match-up against a lower ranked fighter, you would think that your ranking would take a plummet as a result.

 

[aεrgiα]

I'm starting to wonder if Rosalina is too high up on the rankings list. There's evidence that suggests that she does awful against Meta Knight, and if a high ranking fighter has such a negative match-up against a lower ranked fighter, you would think that your ranking would take a plummet as a result.

while i do think rosa has issues, and is not as "definitely" top 3 as people make her out to be, when i contemplate whether she should maybe be a bit lower, there are 2 major things that keep her up there imo;
1) luma is just way too dominant when (s)hes on the field(what gender is luma?) so match ups often come down to how well characters can deal with luma, and a lot of characters in this game struggle with this.(and this can also cause her to struggle against lower ranked chars, although i will admit, i have no idea what makes the rosa mk mu bad for rosa :/ )

2) the results rosa has are just too good to place her lower imo, and no, its not just dabuz.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm starting to wonder if Rosalina is too high up on the rankings list. There's evidence that suggests that she does awful against Meta Knight, and if a high ranking fighter has such a negative match-up against a lower ranked fighter, you would think that your ranking would take a plummet as a result.

I think most of us here just believe that even though she has a bad matchup against Meta Knight, the fact that she does so well/holds up against virtually everyone else warrants her a high position. It's like saying Luigi is too high because he has a terrible matchup against Samus (or that Samus it too low, whatever), or that Sonic is too high because of Wario. Rosalina still has all her great tools to handle virtually any other character.

Personally, I think her 4th place position is fine as it is. However, I would place her at the top of tier 2 rather than being in tier 1 among Pika, ZSS and Sheik. Being in tier 1 by my standards assumes that the character is near flawless. With the Meta Knight matchup in mind, putting Rosalina at the top of tier 2 still shows that she is a dominating character, but not the best pick.

I could also say that Ryu could potentially be 4th and Rosalina be 5th, but regardless...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think most of us here just believe that even though she has a bad matchup against Meta Knight, the fact that she does so well/holds up against virtually everyone else warrants her a high position. It's like saying Luigi is too high because he has a terrible matchup against Samus (or that Samus it too low, whatever), or that Sonic is too high because of Wario. Rosalina still has all her great tools to handle virtually any other character.

Personally, I think her 4th place position is fine as it is. However, I would place her at the top of tier 2 rather than being in tier 1 among Pika, ZSS and Sheik. Being in tier 1 by my standards assumes that the character is near flawless. With the Meta Knight matchup in mind, putting Rosalina at the top of tier 2 still shows that she is a dominating character, but not the best pick.

I could also say that Ryu could potentially be 4th and Rosalina be 5th, but regardless...

That's the thing. Rosalina is currently ranked at the same level as Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu, which probably should not be happening when you consider that her match-ups against them are on the negative side, AND she has some bad match-ups against the lower ranked fighters.

Giving Rosalina her own tier spot or putting her at the top of tier 2 would at least give players an idea that while she is a viable character, she's nowhere near as viable as the likes of Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu, due to having some noticeable flaws that can easily be taken advantage of; for an example, no Luma, approach options take a huge plummet.

 

[Bowserboy3]

(what gender is luma?)

I always consider Luma male, especially considering that Smash Wii U straight up states that the black coloration is Polari, and that the cream one is very similar to Baby Luma, Mario's companion in SMG2. Both of those are confirmed male.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I just refer to the Luma as "it", since Lumas can either be male or female. While some have officially been confirmed to be male (one of which is Polari), others have unknown genders.

 

[Furret24]

I'm starting to wonder if Rosalina is too high up on the rankings list. There's evidence that suggests that she does awful against Meta Knight, and if a high ranking fighter has such a negative match-up against a lower ranked fighter, you would think that your ranking would take a plummet as a result.

One bad matchup against a lower tier character doesn't automatically make them not a high ranking fighter, especially if they do good in other matchups to make up for that. Just look the Ice Climbers in Brawl, who had a bad MU against Peach, a lower ranked character.

 

[Deleted member]

One bad matchup against a lower tier character doesn't automatically make them not a high ranking fighter, especially if they do good in other matchups to make up for that. Just look the Ice Climbers in Brawl, who had a bad MU against Peach, a lower ranked character.

That, or in Brawl who was a mid-tier despite having many even matchups with high to top tiers. His most problematic matchup was Meta Knight, which he got bodied in.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Anyway, to finish up with my concerns about Rosalina's position in the rankings, I feel that the following would make more sense right now...

1:
2:

Based on the scores that I've gathered, Rosalina just doesn't have a single good match-up against any of the tier 1 fighters, but for the tier 2 fighters, her scores range from even to positive against most of them. The only exception is Meta Knight, who is basically the only tier 2 fighter to have a moderate advantage against her.

I know that I'm not in charge of this stuff, but moving Rosalina down to tier 2 would just make more sense right now, since she's currently not as viable as the tier 1 fighters, and she does suffer from weaknesses that can easily be exploited; something that Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu don't have to worry about.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Cue the spoilers!

Spoiler: Don't click if you haven't watched the Direct

Bayonetta and Corrin (Fire Emblem Fates protagonist) are in Smash Bros!

 

[atreyujames]

Am I the only one that thinks Bayonetta looks silly good?

 

[aεrgiα]

th-th-the p-p-p-patch notes... lucas my boy TT_TT them grab and nair buffs... damn those onion cutting ninjas, the tears wont stop

 

[Deleted member]

Can we talk about for a sec?

His up throw is friggin' amazing now. It combos into all of his smashes, tilts and Whirling Fortress at low percents, and up tilt -> up tilt -> (maybe) a lucky third up tilt -> nair does a clean 40-47% damage which works wonders on fastfallers like . This legit just shook up how Bowser's gonna play hard. The duration of the throw was noticeably sped up as well, along with Flying Slam!

 

[TDK]

You know how we put Lucas and Roy super high and then they started falling? Well, we should skip the first part with Cloud.

 

[Furret24]

My god, Lucas has normal grab frame data on a tether. What is this stupidity?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Bowser's up throw got changed for the better. Where it used to be a situational setup, it now is a reliable combo throw, comboing into up smash or up tilt at low percentages, and into up air at mid to kill percentages (even with DI). Getting the DK treatment alone made him a much better character, and I can't wait to see how Bowsers fare in tournaments.

 

[Zerp]

and didn't get any buffs, so there going to be staying pretty low, probably will fall down even lower since everyone else got buffs,

Spoiler: Ranty rant

Ugh, I feel like this patch and direct was made specifically to spite me. Fire Emblem proves yet again that it's Nintendo's special snowflake, and Jigglypuff gets indirectly weakened again since everyone else might as well be taking steroids now. WHY CAN'T PUFF GET ANY BUFFS!? Is it really that hard to change a few percent values, even just give us a token gesture, to at least pretend you care about the character's viability?

so yeah, hard times up ahead for Puff and Zelda mains. Well at least other mains can be happy. Congrats to all the and mains, enjoy your well deserved buffs!