Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Chrono.]

Gilgamesh is the only weird one.

Then again, maybe he was a popular pick in Japan.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm standing in front of Fantina in my Platinum Nuzlocke too scared to press A because I know that Mismagius is going to rip me to shreds and I do not want to grind anymore.

I wish Gol/Crobat learned Crunch.

What's your team?
Crobat is gonna get utterly destroyed by Psybeam

 

[Burb]

As far as I know there still isn't any confirmation on whether or not Mii Fighter costumes were developed in relation to the ballot.

I already addressed this in my post.

It hasn't been said, but the existence of K. Rool and Geno ones are signs enough for me that fan requests played a part in it.

Neither of them seem to be the type of character who'd just be decided on randomly for costumes. Especially Geno.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Did You Know Gaming is thinking of redoing their old videos (finally).

Please tell them that Source Gaming is the only option for Smash!

You can tweet them or RT my tweet!

C'mon guys, we need to push Source Gaming.

 

[Substitution]

C'mon guys, we need to push Source Gaming.

I would facepalm, but I would've made the same pun. So you win this round...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I never said he was; he's just known to be a character the Smash fandom has wanted in the past.

The only other first or second party Nintendo character who got significant requests and wasn't featured as an in-game NPC, a Mii Costume, and wasn't a cut veteran is Dixie Kong.

Sakurai knows what characters are wanted, and the fact that Isaac got nothing and Golden Sun was reduced to a music-only cameo (for both on-disc and DLC) is more than enough evidence for me to say he's not as popular as you guys wish he were (as opposed to evidence of the contrary......which is nothing, lol).



Video 1:
The main point he brought forth seemed to be that Bayonetta and Corrin are too obscure, which are both fairly weak points. There is a lot of things wrong with Corrin, but his being a nobody is the least of them, in my opinion. Smash DLC will sell regardless of the character. The roster has plenty of nobodies. Bayonetta was picked by the people, regardless of whether certain fans don't want to accept the ballot results as the truth. She's definitely nowhere near the level of the other third party characters, but the fact that she performed so well on the ballot is evidence enough that she's not really as obscure as people think.

Video 2:
This one opens right up with the guy complaining about Smash DLC being a ripoff in the UK, and flat out saying he didn't buy any of it, and that Ryu is the only one he'd ever even consider buying.

So why does this guy's opinion matter? He wasn't going to get it anyway. He has nothing to complain about.

Video 3:
"Bayonetta was the first game I was so offended by that I shut it off"

I dunno if it was the sexual themes or the religious ones, but either way.....what the hell was this guy expecting? Unless he somehow found the game disc on the ground, there's no way you could get a copy of Bayonetta without knowing that it's loaded with that kind of material. It's the equivalent of buying God of War and saying "I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WOULD BE GORE!".

That's a false equivalence Burb. You're saying that in game content is parallel to actual popularity. It's not. Moreover how do you know Dixie Kong was the only other character that got high requests? Maybe I could turn this around and say Dixie isn't as popular as you think. She didn't have in gMe content aside from a trophy.

Moreover, lack of evidence isn't confirmation that it doesn't exist. We simply don't know.

 

[ChikoLad]

I already addressed this in my post.

It hasn't been said, but the existence of K. Rool and Geno ones are signs enough for me that fan requests played a part in it.

Neither of them seem to be the type of character who'd just be decided on randomly for costumes. Especially Geno.

Geno has been vocally requested for a long time, since waaaaay before Smash 4. They made a deal with Square Enix to get Cloud in Smash, and Geno has existing ties to Mario (a Nintendo series), so it was a perfect fit for a Square Enix owned Mii Costume. It also comes across as very similar to how Cloud himself got into Smash (not due to the ballot, more due to long term fan outcry as far back as previous games). Of all the characters to say "he's a costume because of the ballot", I highly doubt he was one. He wasn't "randomly" decided, his inclusion made sense considering they already had Cloud coming.

K. Rool could easily just be randomly selected though, considering some of the other Mii Fighter costumes. Like that new one they announced based on a guy from some obscure NES game. And the Black Knight one from Fire Emblem.

 

[Burb]

The removal of the AT seems oddly pointless now, considering that Isaac fans looked to it as their light at the end of the tunnel.

Would've seemed better to just leave it in to avoid any confusion.

I've said this a lot in past debates regarding Isaac's chances in relation to his Assist Trophy's removal, but....

People were wrong to assume that a Brawl Assist Trophy being cut meant they would be promoted to a playable role. Assist Trophies being cut should've been likened to Pokeball Pokemon and Items being cut. Because that's what Assist Trophies are; they're items.

Isaac wasn't the only Assist Trophy who was cut, and Pokemon have been cut or replaced in every Smash thus far. Only one of each have ever been promoted (Little Mac for Assist Trophies and Charizard for Pokeballs).

The removal of Isaac's Assist Trophy might've opened the door for him for DLC, but anyone who thought it was deliberately removed for that purpose were being pretty ridiculous.

That's a false equivalence Burb. You're saying that in game content is parallel to actual popularity. It's not. Moreover how do you know Dixie Kong was the only other character that got high requests? Maybe I could turn this around and say Dixie isn't as popular as you think. She didn't have in gMe content aside from a trophy.

Moreover, lack of evidence isn't confirmation that it doesn't exist. We simply don't know.

You're absolutely right; she probably wasn't as popular as people assumed. My referencing her was in regards to characters who were assumed to be popular by the community.

I'm sorry, but much like with the whiners throwing up their arms and screaming about how Bayonetta could never have beaten their uber-popular Smash Ballot husbando/waifu, there's absolutely nothing to suggest Isaac was popular at all other than assumptions and "I like him tho and so do people here!". The base game contents suggest he's not. The DLC suggests he's not. Everything except isolated fan polls suggests he's not.

 

[Radical Bones]

What's your team?
Crobat is gonna get utterly destroyed by Psybeam

Crobat
Monferno
Staravia
Pachirisu
Buneary
Machop

Yeah... I know.

I'm screwed. I have a no TM rule too so I cant even give Staravia Theif.

 

[epicmartin7]

Ridley confirmed...

Spoiler

for Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

Spoiler

Apparently, Daisy as well...

 

[Chrono.]

New Mario Maker costume from Mario Land.

 

[Burb]

Geno has been vocally requested for a long time, since waaaaay before Smash 4. They made a deal with Square Enix to get Cloud in Smash, and Geno has existing ties to Mario (a Nintendo series), so it was a perfect fit for a Square Enix owned Mii Costume. It also comes across as very similar to how Cloud himself got into Smash (not due to the ballot, more due to long term fan outcry as far back as previous games). Of all the characters to say "he's a costume because of the ballot", I highly doubt he was one. He wasn't "randomly" decided, his inclusion made sense considering they already had Cloud coming.

And why did they pick him?

Because of fan input. You admitted this much yourself.

So....what exactly are you trying to argue, here? Because it's not directly ballot related? Because my point isn't just that Isaac failed in the ballot; it's that he's not this super popular, highly demanded character people seem to think he is. He didn't get jack in SSB4 (and, in fact, lost something major in the form of his Assist Trophy), which suggests to me that he wasn't even a blip on the radar.

 

[ChikoLad]

New Mario Maker costume from Mario Land.

The nostalgia is strong. Mario Land was a game I played a ton of on my Game Boy.

inb4 Daisy speculation tho

And why did they pick him?

Because of fan input. You admitted this much yourself.

So....what exactly are you trying to argue, here? Because it's not directly ballot related? Because my point isn't just that Isaac failed in the ballot; it's that he's not this super popular, highly demanded character people seem to think he is. He didn't get jack in SSB4 (and, in fact, lost something major in the form of his Assist Trophy), which suggests to me that he wasn't even a blip on the radar.

I made a post saying "as far as I know, there is no official confirmation of Mii costumes being decided by the ballot", and you responded to it with an argument for some reason. So yes that was indeed my point, that there is no official confirmation of them being decided by the ballot specifically. Maybe you didn't catch that initially in which case I don't know why you tried to argue with me.

However, there also hasn't been official confirmation that Geno's costume was decided to be included because of fan outcry. I just believe it makes sense that it probably was. Being real though, I can't say with certainty either way, because once again, nothing has been officially confirmed.

 

[Bananija]

New Mario Maker costume from Mario Land.

I feel bad for Daisy's fans... Mario Maker got a Mario Land costumes and it's not her.

 

[Ivander]

At some point he's going to try to file a restraining order and then remember that he can't read.

Illiteracy kills, people.

And yet he asks for links to Divinipedia...

 

[Deleted member]

Crobat
Monferno
Staravia
Pachirisu
Buneary
Machop

Yeah... I know.

I'm screwed. I have a no TM rule too so I cant even give Staravia Theif.

Buneary should have come with Foresight
If you didn't take it out(which you shouldn't as she doesn't learn moves other than Normal and Fighting moves for some time) you should use it, it was how I defeated her

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've said this a lot in past debates regarding Isaac's chances in relation to his Assist Trophy's removal, but....

People were wrong to assume that a Brawl Assist Trophy being cut meant they would be promoted to a playable role. Assist Trophies being cut should've been likened to Pokeball Pokemon and Items being cut. Because that's what Assist Trophies are; they're items.

Isaac wasn't the only Assist Trophy who was cut, and Pokemon have been cut or replaced in every Smash thus far. Only one of each have ever been promoted (Little Mac for Assist Trophies and Charizard for Pokeballs).

The removal of Isaac's Assist Trophy might've opened the door for him for DLC, but anyone who thought it was deliberately removed for that purpose were being pretty ridiculous.



You're absolutely right; she probably wasn't as popular as people assumed. My referencing her was in regards to characters who were assumed to be popular by the community.

I'm sorry, but much like with the whiners throwing up their arms and screaming about how Bayonetta could never have beaten their uber-popular Smash Ballot husbando/waifu, there's absolutely nothing to suggest Isaac was popular at all other than assumptions and "I like him tho and so do people here!". The base game contents suggest he's not. The DLC suggests he's not. Everything except isolated fan polls suggests he's not.

Except in game content and DLC is not indicative of actual popularity. You keep pushing the fact that absence means it has to be when it isn't Burb. That's a logical fallacy.

Regardless, how is my insisting that Isaac was indeed popular parallel to whiners that Bayonetta won the poll. I'm not saying he was the most popular. I'm saying he was popular in his own right. Burb I take offense to that comparison.

 

[Radical Bones]

Buneary should have come with Foresight
If you didn't take it out(which you shouldn't as she doesn't learn moves other than Normal and Fighting moves for some time) you should use it, it was how I defeated her

I was considering that route but worried Lopunny would only last 2 hits from Psybeam.

 

[Pazzo.]

I feel bad for Daisy's fan... Mario Maker got a Mario Land costumes and it's not her.

"Daisy's FAN"

Liked for accuracy.

 

[Solfiner]

I really don't get why they removed Isaac's assist trophy.

 

[Burb]

Except in game content and DLC is not indicative of actual popularity. You keep pushing the fact that absence means it has to be when it isn't Burb. That's a logical fallacy.

Regardless, how is my insisting that Isaac was indeed popular parallel to whiners that Bayonetta won the poll. I'm not saying he was the most popular. I'm saying he was popular in his own right. Burb I take offense to that comparison.

I'm sorry you're offended, but you're very much on the same boat as those people right now. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there are signs that fan input effected the DLC on every level, not just in relation to the ballot character. You are ignoring these signs and choosing to believe Isaac is popular based on nothing factual. The only signs we had in the first place is some supporters on forums and poll data that we now know was inaccurate.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but part of me thinks that more than a little bit of your judgment is based on your own liking of Golden Sun. I can't help but noticed you get involved just about any time anyone says anything negative about it or Isaac in this thread. I think you might not like the idea of him not having the level of popularity you believed he had. Again, this is all speculation on my part, so my apologies in advance.

With all the bones that were thrown to supporters of characters who's names popped up time and time again during Smash character speculation (C'mon, Geno fans got something, for crying out loud), I find it hard to believe that Isaac/Golden Sun would get nothing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I really don't get why they removed Isaac's assist trophy.

Why did they remove any Assist Trophy? Why is Isaac the only one people require an explanation for?

It wasn't really effectual and represented a series that's neither active nor retro. There's plenty of reason to justify it getting the axe.

 

[Bananija]

"Daisy's FAN"

Liked for accuracy.

Shot fired!

Now the question is : Who got shot? Me for my grammar error or Daisy's fanbase?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I really don't get why they removed Isaac's assist trophy.

The Gust Bellows Item pretty much replaced it. Isaac became redundant after it was added.

 

[Radical Bones]

The Gust Bellows Item pretty much replaced it. Isaac became redundant after it was added.

No way. Push was easy to dodge as a moving wall.

Gust bellows is just annoying. Poor vertical recovery characters...

 

[Khoru]

The Gust Bellows Item pretty much replaced it. Isaac became redundant after it was added.

there have never been assist trophies with similar functions to other things
or even to pokemon

 

[Z25]

New Mario Maker costume from Mario Land.

I wonder how they did this? If they hid cut costumes, how are new costumes in the data? I'd imagine they would hide access to those as well. And how did they make the level like that? Is that actually possible?

Anyway cool costume and hilarious that it also got in before Daisy.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm sorry you're offended, but you're very much on the same boat as those people right now. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there are signs that fan input effected the DLC on every level, not just in relation to the ballot character. You are ignoring these signs and choosing to believe Isaac is popular based on nothing factual. The only signs we had in the first place is some supporters on forums and poll data that we now know was inaccurate.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but part of me thinks that more than a little bit of your judgment is based on your own liking of Golden Sun. I can't help but noticed you get involved just about any time anyone says anything negative about it or Isaac in this thread. I think you might not like the idea of him not having the level of popularity you believed he had. Again, this is all speculation on my part, so my apologies in advance.

With all the bones that were thrown to supporters of characters who's names popped up time and time again during Smash character speculation (C'mon, Geno fans got something, for crying out loud), I find it hard to believe that Isaac/Golden Sun would get nothing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Why did they remove any Assist Trophy? Why is Isaac the only one people require an explanation for?

It wasn't really effectual and represented a series that's neither active nor retro. There's plenty of reason to justify it getting the axe.

Now you're saying my like for Golden Sun somehow invalidates my opinion. Burb you're making things personal and you are treading a very fine line. What about your own biases Burb? I haven't heard you talk about Golden Sun other then to discredit it and laughing at its fans on ocasion. This is downright idiotic to pull in an arguement Burb. It's a fallacy for a reason.

I'm not the one saying that the lack of evidence means it didn't happen. That's against scientific thought Burb. It's against logic. Common sense. Lack of evidence means lack of evidence. We don't know. There could be but we don't know. With that line of thinking, science would be dead.

Moreover those polls were more accurate than we thought if a niche character like Bayonetta won. She's not exactly a casual appeal character. She's niche. Just like thousands of other characters. And yet she won.

I never said Isaac won or was even in the top ten. I'm saying he was a popular character request. What's wrong with that?

 

[Wario Bros.]

The removal of Isaac's Assist Trophy is interesting, especially since they not only kept the Golden Sun song from Brawl but added a brand new song from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The removal of Isaac's Assist Trophy is interesting, especially since they not only kept the Golden Sun song from Brawl but added a brand new song from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn.

A reason coukd be that it was because the function caused some problems with certain stages.

Or of course that's the possibility that they wanted to keep options open with DLC but that never came to be.

I personally think it's because Isaac had a new design and they couldn't just take his old one from Brawl.

 

[ChikoLad]

To be honest, I don't even see a reason to speculate over Smash anymore.

It's funny how, now that we've "reached the sun" with Smash content, instead of speculating future content...we speculate why past content is in the game. I think that's the point where we just need to do something else with our lives or talk about something else. We will either get this stuff confirmed in a Famitsu column or interview with Sakurai in the future, or we won't ever get a clear answer and the debates will never end.

So I'll ask a question that might resonate with this group - what sort of game besides Smash would you be inclined to speculate content for? For me, right now, it's the upcoming Kingdom Hearts games (speculating Disney worlds and characters, summons, story elements, and the incorporation of Final Fantasy content, as well as The World Ends With You). As well as Mario & Sonic at the Rio Olympics (speculating new characters since that's finally a thing in this one, Dream Events, music remixes, the classing of characters, and the possibility of the 3DS version having a Story Mode...or even the Wii U version if they wanna be cool. And then speculating what could happen in that potential mode. I'm eager to see how they could incorporate Rosalina into it especially, it would potentially be her first time having full dialogue since the Galaxy games).

 

[LIQUID12A]

I never said Isaac won or was even in the top ten. I'm saying he was a popular character request. What's wrong with that?

That, with all due respect, his popularity in general(and I mean general, not just this fabricated bubble we live in) is arguably questionable with what we've seen.

The boards hype up Isaac to be this uber popular Smash candidate...that didn't even get so much as a Mii costume, unlike someone popular who actually did get one, King K. Rool. SB really isn't representative of Smash fans in general, so what's popular to us (probably) isn't to the rest of the fandom. Throw in the outside influence of non-Smashers and whatever character's popularity held by the boards is greatly and easily overshadowed.

Now, you might say "oh great liquid you hate/are biased against Isaac too"; I don't. I'm indifferent to him(as with many candidates) but I would welcome him. I just see arguments with rather reasonable holes in them, holes that can be expressed by someone with a different viewpoint in at least a respectful manner.

 

[Prince DZ]

"Daisy's FAN"

Liked for accuracy.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I agree, I don't care about speculating anymore.

All of the very last DLC has been shown, which means no more leaks of any kind, and have ZERO interest discussing about a sequel that is neither confirmed or exists.

But I'm still looking out for Super Smash Flash 2 & Super Smash Bros. Crusade news and details.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'll continue to support characters I'd like when Smash 5 eventually enters existence, but I probably won't be doing much Smash-related speculation ever again.

I still (occasionally) speculate on some other games that I like ,such as TF2 and upcoming installments of various other game franchises I like.

 

[Bedoop]

New Mario Maker costume from Mario Land.

Man, I'm sure Daisy isn't a real big fan of that one! I bet she could just pierce the heavens with her anger at this point!

The fact that I'm a pretty big Daisy fan and I'm doing this to myself is funny

 

[epicmartin7]

Well... even though DLC is done and development is wrapping up, it doesn't mean we can't still learn about the history of Smash 4. We'll probably see a lot more content that is talked about from Sakurai in the future and I doubt dataminers have found everything on the game disc . So, we still have lots to look forward to when it comes to Smash History.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing which fighters were planned/scrapped for this game.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I agree, I don't care about speculating anymore.

All of the very last DLC has been shown, which means no more leaks of any kind, and have ZERO interest discussing about a sequel that is neither confirmed or exists.

But I'm still looking out for Super Smash Flash 2 & Super Smash Bros. Crusade news and details.

When's Monkey D. Luffy?

 

[Burb]

Now you're saying my like for Golden Sun somehow invalidates my opinion. Burb you're making things personal and you are treading a very fine line. What about your own biases Burb? I haven't heard you talk about Golden Sun other then to discredit it and laughing at its fans on ocasion. This is downright idiotic to pull in an arguement Burb. It's a fallacy for a reason.

What biases? When do I laugh at Golden Sun fans?

Call my arguments "logical fallacies" all you want, but at least I'm not making ridiculous allegations. Everything I've said negatively of Golden Sun or Isaac are based on things I've seen and heard, facts, or opinions gathered from the latter (y'know, like what we're arguing about right now).

Labeling me as a guy who "laughs and discredits Golden Sun" because I said Isaac is less popular than we thought, the games weren't exactly best sellers, and the series as a whole is incredibly niche and doesn't exactly warrant the representation its fans (ie you) think it does.

I'm no hater. Fact is, I don't care about Golden Sun. I'm not a fan, but I don't hold a negative opinion of it. There's only one person in this argument who has a passionate, judgment-clouding opinion about it.....and it's you, dood.

I'm not the one saying that the lack of evidence means it didn't happen. That's against scientific thought Burb. It's against logic. Common sense. Lack of evidence means lack of evidence. We don't know. There could be but we don't know. With that line of thinking, science would be dead.

Are you serious?

The post you were arguing against was an opinion. I presented it as an opinion. Lemme pull it up to refresh your memory.

If anything, I think people in this thread are exaggerating Isaac's popularity if they think it's possible that he scored that high on the ballot despite getting no content whatsoever in the end (and being the only realizable popular candidate to not get anything, no less).

I'm 100% aware that it might not be the case; but I think it is, and I'm speaking up about it, just like posters before me were saying it's possible that Isaac out-performed the likes of Bayonetta and K. Rool in the ballot.

It's an opinion I formed based on facts; it's not a fact on its own. Just my interpretation of the facts. Just my contribution to the conversation that was going on, not some sort of attempt to trash Isaac and his supporters

Moreover those polls were more accurate than we thought if a niche character like Bayonetta won. She's not exactly a casual appeal character. She's niche. Just like thousands of other characters. And yet she won

I don't recall Bayonetta doing spectacularly in any of the fan polls. She was there, yes, but I don't recall seeing any where she was #1.

The fact that she won should be proof that she's not quite as niche as perceived: just like the fact that Isaac wasn't even deemed worthy of a Mii Costume is evidence that he's more niche than we thought.

I never said Isaac won or was even in the top ten. I'm saying he was a popular character request. What's wrong with that?

We have no proof he was popular in the ballot.

Don't tell me "DATS NOT PRUF, BURB!" when I present possible evidence of his failure, then proceed to call him a "popular pick" based on evidence that we already know is inaccurate. The fan ballots were wrong, and forum support probably had minimal effect on the ballot itself.

My problem is your hypocrisy. We're both passing judgment based purely on theoretical evidence. "People on (insert site here) had Isaac as their #2 most popular pick! So he's popular and probably did well on the ballot!" is no stronger than "Sakurai gave Mii Costumes to some popular characters. Isaac didn't get one, so he might not have been as popular as we thought".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That, with all due respect, his popularity in general(and I mean general, not just this fabricated bubble we live in) is arguably questionable with what we've seen.

The boards hype up Isaac to be this uber popular Smash candidate...that didn't even get so much as a Mii costume, unlike someone popular who actually did get one, King K. Rool. SB really isn't representative of Smash fans in general, so what's popular to us (probably) isn't to the rest of the fandom. Throw in the outside influence of non-Smashers and whatever character's popularity held by the boards is greatly and easily overshadowed.

Now, you might say "oh great liquid you hate/are biased against Isaac too"; I don't. I'm indifferent to him(as with many candidates) but I would welcome him. I just see arguments with rather reasonable holes in them, holes that can be expressed by someone with a different viewpoint in at least a respectful manner.

I acknowledge that SB isn't indicative of the whole Smash fanbase. Never said it was. But Isaac was popular on more than Smash Boards. It was multiple websites. Like the ballot winner was. The silent majority isn't as unnoticeable as many think. It's actually quite similar.

And I'm saying that stating that Isaac not getting a Mii Costume isn't proof that he wasn't a popular request in the big scheme of things. It's not one to one. Several other popular candidates didn't get them. Isaac could just be in the same boat as them.

And Liquid, I never meant to imply that "you don't think Isaac is popular, you must hate him." I said that to Burb because he me things personal and claimed I was biased because I thought Isaac was a popular request. It's the same tactic but in the opposite direction. I stated it in an effort to show Burb that those kinds of statements just invite general dickery.

 

[Wario Bros.]

When's Monkey D. Luffy?

Honestly, I'm not expecting anymore anime characters in Flash. Early in SSF2's life, the devs planned to include many more anime characters but scrapped them due to the fan's criticisms against the idea.

Plus there's still 4 characters they haven't released yet (Isaac, Bowser, Mr. Game & Watch, & Luigi).