Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Parallel_Falchion]

They may be historic in terms of what they did for the industry but not in terms of recognition.

They're more like the unsung heroes of the industry - they did a whole lot but not many people remembered them before Smash (though I admittedly knew them).

And Henry Fleming is most certainly not an unsung hero of the industry, either.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well I don't actually disagree here for the most part. As long as they aren't added for the sake of promoting a franchise.

However, I strongly disagree with "they have nothing to lose". Developing a character takes a lot of time and resources. So then this becomes about priority. The only lost they'd have out of this is if they develop a character no one wants or cares about when that time and resource could be better spent on something else people would clamor or care for. Game development isn't simple after all.

They have nothing to lose because like it or not, STEAM does have it's fans, even if it sold poorly. People will play as the characters, it's a given. Especially since a lot of people pick characters for purely playstyle. Someone like Henry Fleming would likely be comparable to Mega Man and a lot of people like how Mega Man plays. He certainly wouldn't be a waste.

Are you seriously arguing that not many people would recognize Duck Hunt

I didn't see Duck Hunt in the post admittedly. I was referring to R.O.B and G&W.

And Henry Fleming is most certainly not an unsung hero of the industry, either.

>he's literally a patriot

:V

Jokes aside, I don't even think that's a necessary trait though. Again, from the get go - I've said all that's needed is that the character offers something new.

 

[Naoshi]

Not that I believe that a Codename Steam character has a decent chance, but this argument has already been moot considering we have already gotten non-clone characters "no-one was clamouring for." Popularity in terms of Smash demands is the least of the disadvantages a Codename Steam character has.

I worded my argument poorly there. I mean to say if they develop a character that no one wanted and STILL no one wants after the reveal then that is something to lose.

Meanwhile Wii Fit, a character no one clamored for before her reveal ended up being received very positively.

So it's more of a risk and reward kind of situation if that... makes sense? Speaking from a developer's point of view. Hope that clears it up.

 

[Opossum]

And Henry Fleming is most certainly not an unsung hero of the industry, either.

And why is that?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Are you seriously arguing that not many people would recognize Duck Hunt

Indeed. Duck Hunt was the second best selling game on the NES, selling over 28 million copies and the dog is infamous for being a huge troll

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

And why is that?

Were you following that conversation? This can't be a serious question.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Spoiler

I'm glad female Dwayne the "Rock" Johnson is back

 

[N3ON]

64 - Falcon and Ness. Arguably Samus too since she hadn't had a game in 8 years by her Smash appearance, IIRC, and a lot of people didn't know who she was.
Melee - Ice Climbers, Marth and Roy, and Mr. Game & Watch
Brawl - Ike (his games sold TERRRRIBLY), Pit, and Lucas. Arguably R.O.B too.
Smash 4 - Shulk and Greninja (Pokémon is mega popular but the fact is there were FAR more easily recognisable Pokémon they could have chosen if "the most popular/sales effective" choice was a factor. Not even counting Mewtwo here).

F-Zero was not niche. Captain Falcon yes, F-Zero no.

Mother I already covered.

Metroid also wasn't niche. I think you're confusing "niche" with "not one of Nintendo's top 5 most successful series" here. And most people here might not have known who she was prior to Smash, but that's because people here were really young if even born when Smash 64 came out. In 1999 most gamers knew who she was given that many didn't start gaming in the 5th gen.

ICs/Game & Watch/Pit/ROB - not talking about retros. Already covered that too. They're in their own category, one which Xenoblade isn't.

FE wasn't niche in Japan. Japan is who they were added for. Read above, 770k solely in Japanese units on one title plus an anime to boot does not niche make.

Lucas/Ike/Greninja - not talking about existing series, again something I already covered. Xenoblade was not an "existing series" it doesn't fit the paradigm you're advocating exists. Also trying to argue that a starter Pokemon is niche is kinda funny. No starter Pokemon is niche.

And Xenoblade I certainly already covered. Niche, yes. Many reasons to include which STEAM and the vast majority of other niche titles do not possess, also yes.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you think it would ever be likely that Nintendo would swoop in and buy all of Konami's video game franchises? I'd personally say 'nope, no way', but if nothing else at least getting back the Nintendo history-relevant ones like Bomberman and Castlevania would be nice.

Probably never gonna happen though, which means they're destined to die with Konami.

I doubt it'll happen too, but Bomberman and Castlevania would be good fits for Nintendo. On the other hand, Metal Gear always seemed better suited for Sony, but I don't expect them to buy any of Konami's IP's either.

Then again, I've seen curveballs in the game industry happen before.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

HEY GUYS I'M BACK FROM MY BUSINESS TRIP! *sees argument*
I have salty popcorn here. This can't be a coincidence

 

[Opossum]

Were you following that conversation? This can't be a serious question.

Once again, needless hostility isn't exactly appreciated.

 

[AreJay25]

Do you think it would ever be likely that Nintendo would swoop in and buy all of Konami's video game franchises? I'd personally say 'nope, no way', but if nothing else at least getting back the Nintendo history-relevant ones like Bomberman and Castlevania would be nice.

Probably never gonna happen though, which means they're destined to die with Konami.

Well they did get the rights to that one Hudson game but that's probably going to be the extent unfortunately.

I'd love for them to get buy some franchises, though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All this arguing about niche franchises being possible and everyone forgot why Shulk was made playable in the first place. Very high demand. Project Rainfall might have helped

 

[A Distant Demon]

Lol this argument

Spoiler

Oh come on!


EDIT the game even calls it a Choozo statue. ..

 

[Naoshi]

And why is that?

For comparison's sake, G&W is from a popular handheld hardware series (predating the Gameboy!). ROB was one of the big reasons why we got the NES in America after the market crash of 1983 (he actually saved the industry if you think about it!). But S.T.E.A.M. just kind of exists, barely charted in any sales despite some of its marketing.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Once again, needless hostility isn't exactly appreciated.

Hostility? Please. If you're not going to answer my question, just don't respond.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Metroid also wasn't niche. I think you're confusing "niche" with "not one of Nintendo's top 5 most successful series" here. And most people here might not have known who she was prior to Smash, but that's because people here were really young if even born when Smash 64 came out. In 1999 most gamers knew who she was given that many didn't start gaming in the 5th gen.

People knew who Samus was because how how notable the twist was that the "guy" in the suit turned out to be a strong, cool-looking Action Girl in an industry where they were very rare at the time.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hostility? Please. If you're not going to answer my question, just don't respond.

Hostility = being rude, Saying not to respond is rude.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol this argument

Spoiler

Oh come on!


EDIT the game even calls it a Choozo statue. ..

....Are there really that many blatant refferences already this early in the game? Wow, I didn't even know that was possible. LOL.

 

[ChikoLad]

F-Zero was not niche. Captain Falcon yes, F-Zero no.

Mother I already covered.

Metroid also wasn't niche. I think you're confusing "niche" with "not one of Nintendo's top 5 most successful series" here. And most people here might not have known who she was prior to Smash, but that's because people here were really young if even born when Smash 64 came out. In 1999 most gamers knew who she was given that many didn't start gaming in the 5th gen.

ICs/Game & Watch/Pit/ROB - not talking about retros. Already covered that too. They're in their own category, one which Xenoblade isn't.

FE wasn't niche in Japan. Japan is who they were added for. Read above, 770k solely in Japanese units on one title plus an anime to boot does not niche make.

Lucas/Ike/Greninja - not talking about existing series, again something I already covered. Xenoblade was not an "existing series" it doesn't fit the paradigm you're advocating exists. Also trying to argue that a starter Pokemon is niche is kinda funny. No starter Pokemon is niche.

And Xenoblade I certainly already covered. Niche, yes. Many reasons to include which STEAM and the vast majority of other niche titles do not posses, also yes.

"not talking about this or that"

That is not how one debates. Don't trim the fat just because it hurts your point.

At the end of the day, the only ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL criteria for getting into Smash, is that the character offers something new (exception being clones, which are added at the last minute to pander to a few extra people). Oh, and I guess that the character is LEGALLY possible too.

At the end of the day, that's all that matters. Everything else is tertiary, arguably a domino effect.

I mean I could give you all sorts of reasons as to why Rosalina got in from a promotional/relevancy/iconic standpoint, however, for whatever reason, the Smash fanbase never considered her over people like Waluigi and Daisy, even. She even got in over Bowser Jr, who was almost cut. But she still got in, and the only reason Sakurai has remotely hinted at her being included is because "she had obvious potential to introduce a puppet fighter playstyle to Smash".

 

[Deleted member]

This argument sure is steamed
I would post something to cool the place down but I know not to play with fire

 

[FalKoopa]

Let's calm down guys.

It is getting pretty heated. And it's supposed to December.

 

[Naoshi]

"not talking about this or that"

That is not how one debates. Don't trim the fat just because it hurts your point.

I think it's because he already said his piece on that character and don't feel to reexplain it.

 

[Opossum]

Hostility? Please. If you're not going to answer my question, just don't respond.

That's a bit of irony considering you didn't answer my question.

Fleming is unsung. Fleming is a hero, and to make it less literal, the game itself is a good one that takes its own spin on the strategy genre while giving Nintendo one of the few franchises of its kind. Fleming is from a video game, and hence the industry. Therefore he's an unsung hero of the industry.

If you were referring to something else like what Naoshi alluded to, then elaborating wouldn't hurt anyone. You don't need to be groundbreaking and old like R.O.B. or Game and Watch to be an unsung hero.

 

[Deleted member]

This argument sure is steamed
I would post something to cool the place down but I know not to play with fire

1. Stop it with your puns, I'm the funny but not funny guy around here.
2. Great, you've already grabbed my attention. Really, anything to shift from these character arguments I grow tired of.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Let's calm down guys.

It is getting pretty heated. And it's supposed to December.

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door!

I don't care
What they're going to say
Let the storm rage on,
The cold never bothered me anyway!

 

[N3ON]

All this arguing about niche franchises being possible and everyone forgot why Shulk was made playable in the first place. Very high demand. Project Rainfall might have helped

I imagine without Rainfall Shulk wouldn't have even been included given Sakurai's current tendency against Japan-only characters, which he likely would've been without Rainfall.

For all we know when he included Lucas (which was pre-Mother 3 release) he didn't know the game wouldn't make it overseas. That's just a guess though, who knows.

People knew who Samus was because how how notable the twist was that the "guy" in the suit turned out to be a strong, cool-looking Action Girl in an industry where they were very rare at the time.

Yus.

Plus Super Metroid was (and still is) considered one of the best games of all time, and she's a progenitor of one half of the Metroidvania style of game, so yeah... she was known.

 

[A Distant Demon]

....Are there really that many blatant refferences already this early in the game? Wow, I didn't even know that was possible. LOL.

Apparently. There are even statues of Metroid and a picture of Booster from SMRPG

not even a parody it's straight up a picture of him lol.

Also this game is amazing. I have no idea why no one talks about this more it it stays this good

EDIT and right next to that photo is a store called "Viva Pinatas"

Jesus Christ

 

[Soul.]

These character arguments are getting old.

Unfortunately that's just how speculation is, as much as having speculah with no arguments at all would be better instead of turning everything into a heated debate imo.

 

[Naoshi]

All this arguing about niche franchises being possible and everyone forgot why Shulk was made playable in the first place. Very high demand. Project Rainfall might have helped

Well to be fair, no one is saying niche franchises are impossible.


but yeah I think Rainfall definitely helped

 

[ChikoLad]

Samus was known by some but not universally, she was still fairly lowkey by the time the first Smash came out.

I specifically recall a lot of people being surprised when they saw her "skeleton" when electrocuted.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Apparently. There are even statues of Metroid and a picture of Booster from SMRPG

not even a parody it's straight up a picture of him lol.

Also this game is amazing. I have no idea why no one talks about this more it it stays this good

EDIT and right next to that photo is a store called "Viva Pinatas"

Jesus Christ

I ALMOST had that game but I got paid a week AFTER it was on offer. RIP dreams

I imagine without Rainfall Shulk wouldn't have even been included given Sakurai's current tendency against Japan-only characters, which he likely would've been without Rainfall.

For all we know when he included Lucas (which was pre-Mother 3 release) he didn't know the game wouldn't make it overseas. That's just a guess though, who knows.


Yus.

Plus Super Metroid was (and still is) considered one of the best games of all time, and she's a progenitor of one half of the Metroidvania style of game, so yeah... she was known.

Actually, Rainfall was exclusive for America, Europe was already getting Xenoblade iirc

 

[Opossum]

I'd still say Samus was definitely well known by the time Smash 64 came out. Super Metroid was huge, and that's putting it lightly.

 

[Naoshi]

I'd still say Samus was definitely well known by the time Smash 64 came out. Super Metroid was huge, and that's putting it lightly.

Yeah, Super Metroid was highly praised and sold a couple million units, didn't it? We only didn't get a Metroid game for a while because Super Metroid was intended to be the final game I believe.

EDIT: There's also that 5 year gap between Super Metroid and Smash Bros 64. Which isn't too big of a gap.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd still say Samus was definitely well known by the time Smash 64 came out. Super Metroid was huge, and that's putting it lightly.

She was known but was still not the biggest thing ever.

At the time of Smash 64, she was somewhat obscure, and there were plenty of people who didn't know who she was. Not having a game in 8 years will do that.

It doesn't matter in the end though, and of course, I would imagine the character selection process was different with the first game anyway. Pretty much everyone from the game is the main character of a franchise, and the roster was focused on "classic" characters. Smaller budget game and all that. Nowadays, the focus is different...hell, I'd argue, there really is no focus. Smash has a bit of everything now.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yus.

Plus Super Metroid was (and still is) considered one of the best games of all time, and she's a progenitor of one half of the Metroidvania style of game, so yeah... she was known.

Even Fox was reasonably well-known before he got included in Smash considering the success and popularity of Star Fox 64 among Nintendo fans. There's a reason why "Do a Barrel Roll!" became famous.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah, Super Metroid was highly praised and sold a couple million units, didn't it? We only didn't get a Metroid game for a while because Super Metroid was intended to be the final game I believe.

Oh, is that why? That'd definitely explain it. I just thought they weren't sure where to take it on the N64 and waited for the GameCube to make the first-person shooting better. That was, of course, just a guess though.

 

[Chrono.]

So next year is Crash's 20th anniversary

The least they could do is an HD collection, and imo the only thing they should.

 

[Naoshi]

Oh, is that why? That'd definitely explain it. I just thought they weren't sure where to take it on the N64 and waited for the GameCube to make the first-person shooting better. That was, of course, just a guess though.

I could be absolutely wrong but that's what I've heard. Feel free to correct me haha

Not having a game in 8 years will do that.

Just to note something, but the time gap between Super Metroid's (1994) release and the beginning of Smash Bros's development (1998) is actually 4 years. You're confusing the 8 year gap with Super Metroid to Metroid Prime.

 

[Wario Bros.]

Hi guys!

>Character relevancy talk

Whoopie...

Anything else?