Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Deleted member]

Just looked it up and the current best selling bust size in Ireland is 34DD.

Which is larger than what Tifa has.

EDIT: That information is out dated. The most recent report actually says 36DD.

I'm currently wondering who makes these sorts of research and for what purpose

 

[JamesDNaux]

Seems I'm on both sides of the fence this time.


As someone who hasn't played a Final Fantasy game, the FF7 remake looks absolutely amazing, a must buy.

On the other hand, I'm looking at the Ratchet reboot and find myself questioning what Insomniac was smoking.

 

[ChikoLad]

You call THIS exaggerated?

Don't blame me, blame 1997 Squaresoft CG design team and Nomura.

That looks more like her clothes are actually floating outward in the wind. You can clearly see her shirt moving about.

People seem to forget that clothes affect the appearance of breasts.

Case in point:

Spoiler

Rosalina actually has large breasts.

Her normal outfit is a pregnancy dress though. An outfit designed to be concealing.

I'm currently wondering who makes these sorts of research and for what purpose

Bras are a product that must be sold.

Knowing the average bust size is important because that's the bra size that most women will buy.

 

[N3ON]

I believe sales do indirectly matter when it comes to including new series in Smash. Not so much existing ones, but sales generally indicate how "big" (audience-wise) the game/series is, and the bigger/more prolific series are the ones that tend to get included.

I mean there's a reason we got AC, Wii Fit, Punch-Out and Xenoblade instead of like, Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, FlingSmash and Pandora's Tower.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just looked it up and the current best selling bust size in Ireland is 34DD.

Which is larger than what Tifa has.

EDIT: That information is out dated. The most recent report actually says 36DD.

I wanna be Irish now Q.Q

 

[Naoshi]

I believe sales do indirectly matter when it comes to including new series in Smash. Not so much existing ones, but sales generally indicate how "big" (audience-wise) the game/series is, and the bigger/more prolific series are the ones that tend to get included.

I mean there's a reason we got AC, Wii Fit, Punch-Out and Xenoblade instead of like, Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, FlingSmash and Pandora's Tower.

Yeah, this. It really depends on how recognizable or how much people care for these franchises. Each and every single franchise with a playable fighter has had at least a sizable fandom (FE, Mother,etc) or some special/notable recognizably (Wii Fit, Duck Hunt) at the time of their inclusion.

 

[Deleted member]

clothes effect

*grammar nazi intensifies*
Affect
It's not that hard, guys

I wanna be Irish now Q.Q

So you can make their average bust size go down?

 

[ChikoLad]

I believe sales do indirectly matter when it comes to including new series in Smash. Not so much existing ones, but sales generally indicate how "big" (audience-wise) the game/series is, and the bigger/more prolific series are the ones that tend to get included.

I mean there's a reason we got AC, Wii Fit, Punch-Out and Xenoblade instead of like, Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, FlingSmash and Pandora's Tower.

The point is that you only need ONE big new franchise.

In Smash 4, for example, we got Animal Crossing, and then something more niche like Xenoblade.

The Smash 5 equivalent to that would be Splatoon and STEAM.

The bigger franchises help the smaller ones grow.

 

[Opossum]

As of their debut inclusion in Smash:
Mother is popular in Japan
Fire Emblem is a long running franchise that had a notable cult following in Japan.
Kid Icarus was a million seller on NES
Xenoblade is also a cult classic

STEAM has... ???


STEAM sold like **** and sold worse than W101 everywhere else

Don't compare those franchises to something that barely even generated any much interest at all.

Sales don't even matter though.

In basically everything Sakurai's said as far as how he picks characters, sales were never brought up. As far as made up fan-rules go, that's honestly my biggest pet peeve. Sakurai has been on record saying that there aren't many new Nintendo IPs that work well for a fighting game. He's been on record saying a unique mechanic will catch his eye and help get a character in. Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. offers this.

 

[Naoshi]

Sales don't even matter though.

In basically everything Sakurai's said as far as how he picks characters, sales were never brought up. As far as made up fan-rules go, that's honestly my biggest pet peeve. Sakurai has been on record saying that there aren't many new Nintendo IPs that work well for a fighting game. He's been on record saying a unique mechanic will catch his eye and help get a character in. Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. offers this.

It's not so much the sales but so much their relevancy/history. I'm not saying STEAM is impossible, but I don't think it's comparable to those franchises is what I'm getting at.


I mean tbh, I wouldn't mind a STEAM rep at all.

 

[ChikoLad]

It's not so much the sales but so much their relevancy. I'm not saying STEAM is impossible, but I don't think it's comparable to those franchises is what I'm getting at.


I mean tbh, I wouldn't mind a STEAM rep at all.

"Relevancy"

.

Also Smash literally made relevant.

 

[Frostwraith]

I always had the same doubt because in portuguese we use the expression "bombed" to say something was a huge success
****ing english being a contrarian

As a Portuguese speaker, I can confirm this.

Ni No Kuni 2? I thought Studio Ghibli was on hiatus?

AFAIK, only Hayao Miyazaki retired. I'm pretty sure the studio is still active.

The studio did halt its activities for a while after Miyazaki's retirement, though.

 

[Naoshi]

"Relevancy"

.

Also Smash literally made relevant.

Edited my post to say Relevency/history. Duck Hunt, G&W and ROB all fit under history. But to be honest, G&W still had games coming in on the Gameboy/Gameboy Advance before and after his debut on Melee. So he was still relevent when he was added in Melee.

Mother IS pretty relevant amongst Nintendo fans though. Look at all that demand for EB VC release (which happened thanks to that) and Mother 3!

Also you forget that Mother 3 was a recent thing in Japan when Lucas was debuted, right? Nice try.


Greninja is from Pokemon. Pokemon is ALWAYS relevent. I was speaking of franchises. >_>

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

Lel Fang. Looks alright, but not a fan of status effect characters.



KOF 14 getting 50 characters is pretty hype tho. Almost makes me forget how it looks.
Almost.



Last Blade 2 was the best fighting game announcement.

 

[Chrono.]

http://www.twitch.tv/fahadouken

KOF 14 gameplay

 

[ChikoLad]

Edited my post to say Relevency/history. Mother IS pretty relevant amongst Nintendo fans though.

And once again, you still run into a few problems there. I can list examples, but all I need to refute that is .

He was literally in the game before his game was out and before the public knew who he was.

 

[Champ Gold]

Also Smash literally made relevant.

You telling me X&Y never made Greninja relevant? Like nobody cared until he was in Smash.


Bro, that's utterly crazy. He was really popular and was the most used starter over the other 2. And there's a reason why Banned Frog exist with Smogon.

If anything Dmash just made him massive than before. Greninja got in Smash because of his great design and characteristics and was popular because of it and reached that level where Sakurai looked like genius when he selected Greninja for the roster.

 

[Naoshi]

And once again, you still run into a few problems there. I can list examples, but all I need to refute that is .

He was literally in the game before his game was out and before the public knew who he was.

I'll repost what I've said during that edit because I accidentally rushed my post.

"Duck Hunt, G&W and ROB all fit under history. But to be honest, G&W still had games coming in on the Gameboy/Gameboy Advance before and after his debut on Melee. So he was still relevent when he was added in Melee.

Mother IS pretty relevant amongst Nintendo fans though. Look at all that demand for EB VC release (which happened thanks to that) and Mother 3!

Also you forget that Mother 3 was a recent thing in Japan when Lucas was debuted, right? Nice try.


Greninja is from Pokemon. Pokemon is ALWAYS relevent. I was speaking of franchises. >_>"

 

[Opossum]

It's not so much the sales but so much their relevancy/history. I'm not saying STEAM is impossible, but I don't think it's comparable to those franchises is what I'm getting at.


I mean tbh, I wouldn't mind a STEAM rep at all.

I mean yeah, comparing it to some of those other ones is a bit too far, but I still feel something like Mother is a decent analogue.

Another thing to remember is who made the game, I feel. With Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, and other lower-key series, they're made by less well-known studios and often times second party developers. Meanwhile S.T.E.A.M. was made by Intelligent Systems, who already have content in Smash. In a way that makes it easier for them to add a character from the game as well, as there's less paperwork to be done. And to be fair I wouldn't say it's as obscure as Heracles or Fossil Fighters, as those series seem to get even less marketing than S.T.E.A.M. did.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'll repost what I've said during that edit because I accidentally rushed my post.

"Duck Hunt, G&W and ROB all fit under history. But to be honest, G&W still had games coming in on the Gameboy/Gameboy Advance before and after his debut on Melee. So he was still relevent when he was added in Melee.

Mother IS pretty relevant amongst Nintendo fans though. Look at all that demand for EB VC release (which happened thanks to that) and Mother 3!

Also you forget that Mother 3 was a recent thing in Japan when Lucas was debuted, right? Nice try.


Greninja is from Pokemon. Pokemon is ALWAYS relevent. I was speaking of franchises. >_>"

Every character falls under some kind of fan-made criteria or represents something, but none of those actually matter, since Sakurai's primary search criteria is just plain how interesting the character is.

My point is that many characters just barely fit certain representation criteria, no different to STEAM. Like, EB has a fan base, but it's called a "cult classic" for a reason...

 

[Naoshi]

Every character falls under some kind of fan-made criteria or represents something, but none of those actually matter, since Sakurai's primary search criteria is just plain how interesting the character is.

My point is that many characters just barely fit certain representation criteria, no different to STEAM. Like, EB has a fan base, but it's called a "cult classic" for a reason...

My argument is more or less that S.T.E.A.M. is not comparable to franchises like Mother, Fire Emblem and such and it's kinda my pet peeve. They're in a far better position than S.T.E.A.M. is in general. S.T.E.A.M. sold so poorly that it's likely in such a dire situation.

I am NOT saying S.T.E.A.M. in Smash won't ever happen, but let's not compare it to those franchises.

You do realize that Mother was relevent and popular (in Japan) by the time Smash Bros 64 (which was originally intended as a JP only game) was a thing right? They were even making a N64 sequel (granted that was cancelled later on which became a GBA game, just in time for Brawl). Mother was still an active franchise.

 

[epicmartin7]

So... Gamexplain posted there discussion on Cloud today.

They said they tried to get a special guest, but connection issues got in the way. You'd most likely had to have been on the other side of the world in order to have really bad connection problem between countries. With that in mind, I think I may know who this person is (although it's mostly assumptions.)

Spoiler

*cough* @PushDustIn *cough*

 

[N3ON]

The point is that you only need ONE big new franchise.

In Smash 4, for example, we got Animal Crossing, and then something more niche like Xenoblade.

The Smash 5 equivalent to that would be Splatoon and STEAM.

The bigger franchises help the smaller ones grow.

All four of the new Nintendo series included in Smash 4 were bigger than the others in that gen. I exclude Duck Hunt because retros are a bit different.

Trying to find patterns in inclusion is forever the fruitless endeavour. Where was this big/niche divide in Brawl? Wario and Pikmin? Neither of those were niche. ROB and Kid Icarus? Both of those were retro. How about Melee? FE wasn't niche in Japan.

Xenoblade was niche, but there are certainly more niche series of this generation to have chosen. It's not exactly the equivalent to STEAM given it was actually well-received commercially and critically, it had a popular character, and it made very big waves considering the type of game it was. Those are the reasons it was included, not to balance out some scale not present in past titles.

I mean if this was a true paradigm of Smash you'd have more than one poor example to show for it. And before you raise Mother remember 9 other series were added in that game, 64 was made solely for the Japanese market, and 2 or 3 games was the standard for like half the roster then.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It will be interesting to see how many further new post-Smash 4 Nintendo IP with notable success and popularity we will see happening before Smash 5.

 

[Arcanir]

I mean yeah, comparing it to some of those other ones is a bit too far, but I still feel something like Mother is a decent analogue.

Another thing to remember is who made the game, I feel. With Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, and other lower-key series, they're made by less well-known studios and often times second party developers. Meanwhile S.T.E.A.M. was made by Intelligent Systems, who already have content in Smash. In a way that makes it easier for them to add a character from the game as well, as there's less paperwork to be done. And to be fair I wouldn't say it's as obscure as Heracles or Fossil Fighters, as those series seem to get even less marketing than S.T.E.A.M. did.

I don't think the developer should really be used as a way to dismiss the comparisons. Yeah IS is more well known then the creators of those franchises, but that doesn't mean that Sakurai would give STEAM more priority just because of it. If Sakurai liked one of the other franchises more, he'd get content from them, and he has shown that he's willing to do that since Heracles has a trophy and FF has a trophy.

Also, to be honest, none of them got that good marketing. STEAM was shown in directs and had the roundtable, but when push came to shove, they just left it alone to fend for itself when it came to release and it was forgotten as a result. Also, while I like STEAM more, Fossil Fighters is probably less obscure since it has longevity on its side and was at least decently successful all things considered.

 

[ChikoLad]

My argument is more or less that S.T.E.A.M. is not comparable to franchises like Mother, Fire Emblem and such and it's kinda my pet peeve. They're in a far better position than S.T.E.A.M. is in general. S.T.E.A.M. sold so poorly that it's likely in such a dire situation.

I am NOT saying S.T.E.A.M. in Smash won't ever happen, but let's not compare it to those franchises.

You do realize that Mother was relevent and popular (in Japan) by the time Smash Bros 64 was a thing right? They were even making a N64 sequel (granted that was cancelled later on which became a GBA game, just in time for Brawl).

It's not directly comparable to those franchises but they are still comparable enough. Both aren't known for being that successful, STEAM is just a bit more extreme in that regard.

It ultimately doesn't matter though. Characters don't need to be currently relevant or sell well to get into Smash. As DLC, I think they do, or at least need fan outcry. But for a fresh game, it doesn't make a difference. As long as they have big hitters like Splatoon and some new Pokémon or something, which promote Smash itself, smaller, less successful franchise can be included and Smash promotes them.

That's the whole dynamic of promotion in Smash, and it's really quite a perfect little system. It's worked for many lower key franchises, and there is no reason it can't be done with STEAM. Again, they don't LOSE anything. You can't get around that fact. They only have something to gain.

 

[Soul.]

inb4 smash 6 speculation discussions and people say

"greninja has no staying power so it'll leave the roster!"

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Sales don't even matter though.

In basically everything Sakurai's said as far as how he picks characters, sales were never brought up. As far as made up fan-rules go, that's honestly my biggest pet peeve. Sakurai has been on record saying that there aren't many new Nintendo IPs that work well for a fighting game. He's been on record saying a unique mechanic will catch his eye and help get a character in. Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. offers this.

http://mynintendonews.com/2015/01/0...-hunt-joining-the-battle-in-super-smash-bros/

MS: Please try to have a look at the sales-numbers. It might be the most-sold shooting-game in the world. It might be because it came bundled with the NES outside of Japan, if you look at worldwide numbers you come up with a huge number. I thought to create a character based on that would be appropriate, so we included that character from the very beginning of the project.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Trying to find patterns in inclusion is forever the fruitless endeavour. Where was this big/niche divide in Brawl? Wario and Pikmin? Neither of those were niche. ROB and Kid Icarus? Both of those were retro. How about Melee? FE wasn't niche in Japan.

The third game in the franchise sold 776,338 copies in Japan alone. That is pretty good.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

People using G&W, ROB, and Duck Hunt as counter-arguments to "relevancy" claims is one of the dumbest ways to justify saying a character has a good chance.

"These retro characters with significant Nintendo history got in, surely this year-old character whom no one gives a crap about even now stands a good chance!"

 

[N3ON]

STEAM is such a random choice anyway. I think Fleming would make for a cool character in Smash but Nintendo has a ton of niche/obscure series with characters that would work well in Smash, even from this past gen. By the time Smash 5 comes out the game is going to be old news and probably all but forgotten.

It's pretty forgotten already unfortunately.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Spoiler

This is about a minute in. Guacamelee does not play games with references does it?

 

[Naoshi]

It ultimately doesn't matter though. Characters don't need to be currently relevant or sell well to get into Smash. As DLC, I think they do, or at least need fan outcry. But for a fresh game, it doesn't make a difference. As long as they have big hitters like Splatoon and some new Pokémon or something, which promote Smash itself, smaller, less successful franchise can be included and Smash promotes them.

That's the whole dynamic of promotion in Smash, and it's really quite a perfect little system. It's worked for many lower key franchises, and there is no reason it can't be done with STEAM. Again, they don't LOSE anything. You can't get around that fact. They only have something to gain.

Well I don't actually disagree here for the most part. As long as they aren't added for the sake of promoting a franchise.

However, I strongly disagree with "they have nothing to lose". Developing a character takes a lot of time and resources. So then this becomes about priority. The only lost they'd have out of this is if they develop a character no one wants or cares about when that time and resource could be better spent on something else people would clamor or care for. Game development isn't simple after all.

 

[Inawordyes]

Do you think it would ever be likely that Nintendo would swoop in and buy all of Konami's video game franchises? I'd personally say 'nope, no way', but if nothing else at least getting back the Nintendo history-relevant ones like Bomberman and Castlevania would be nice.

Probably never gonna happen though, which means they're destined to die with Konami.

 

[FalKoopa]

If I may chime in on Codename STEAM...

There are two questions that should be answered:
Is it well-promoted? Yes.
Is it distinct enough to develop a cult following? So-so.
Was it well-received critically? To some extent.

It's a pretty uphill battle, honestly. Much more than the other ones thrown around.
The American theme was definitely appealing, but I think it contributed it being a niche game. It failed to break 2000 units in its first week in Japan.

I don't really think Nintendo or IS will want to continue the series, as unlike the others... it didn't appeal to almost anyone. And it wasn't developed by a core Nintendo group, which Chibi Robo was fortunate enough to have. And if it was created as an experiment, it's even worse for the game.

It all comes down to whether Sakurai will think it's worth it. it's hard to guess his mind, I suppose. I definitely don't expect Nintendo to suggest it to Sakurai.

 

[ChikoLad]

All four of the new Nintendo series included in Smash 4 were bigger than the others in that gen. I exclude Duck Hunt because retros are a bit different.

Trying to find patterns in inclusion is forever the fruitless endeavour. Where was this big/niche divide in Brawl? Wario and Pikmin? Neither of those were niche. ROB and Kid Icarus? Both of those were retro. How about Melee? FE wasn't niche in Japan.

Xenoblade was niche, but there are certainly more niche series of this generation to have chosen. It's not exactly the equivalent to STEAM given it was actually well-received commercially and critically, it had a popular character, and it made very big waves considering the type of game it was. Those are the reasons it was included, not to balance out some scale not present in past titles.

I mean if this was a true paradigm of Smash you'd have more than one poor example to show for it. And before you raise Mother remember 9 other series were added in that game, 64 was made solely for the Japanese market, and 2 or 3 games was the standard for like half the roster then.

64 - Falcon and Ness. Arguably Samus too since she hadn't had a game in 8 years by her Smash appearance, IIRC, and a lot of people didn't know who she was.
Melee - Ice Climbers, Marth and Roy, and Mr. Game & Watch
Brawl - Ike (his games sold TERRRRIBLY), Pit, and Lucas. Arguably R.O.B too.
Smash 4 - Shulk and Greninja (Pokémon is mega popular but the fact is there were FAR more easily recognisable Pokémon they could have chosen if "the most popular/sales effective" choice was a factor. Not even counting Mewtwo here).

I could probably think of more but those are off the top of my head.

People using G&W, ROB, and Duck Hunt as counter-arguments to "relevancy" claims is one of the dumbest ways to justify saying a character has a good chance.

"These retro characters with significant Nintendo history got in, surely this year-old character whom no one gives a crap about even now stands a good chance!"

They may be historic in terms of what they did for the industry but not in terms of recognition.

They're more like the unsung heroes of the industry - they did a whole lot but not many people remembered them before Smash (though I admittedly knew them).

 

[Naoshi]

Are you seriously arguing that not many people would recognize Duck Hunt

 

[Starlight_Lily]

Listening to the Subspace themes from Brawl on headphones is absolutely amazing. Really gives off an intense feeling.

Also, Tetsuya Takahashi has expressed desire to continue the Xenoblade series. He wants the third game to be more like the first one in regards to being more story-driven and tells it may have a different scenario from the previous two games, noting how the first game is fantasy and the second is sci-fi.

More details here: http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/368023/Tetsuya+Takahashi+Talks+Xenoblade+Chronicles+X/

How about a Supernatural setting? Like make it a urban fantasy. Or maybe a Science vs. Fantasy setting? I think these settings would add some interesting story perspectives.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Well I don't actually disagree here for the most part. As long as they aren't added for the sake of promoting a franchise.

However, I strongly disagree with "they have nothing to lose". Developing a character takes a lot of time and resources. So then this becomes about priority. The only lost they'd have out of this is if they develop a character no one wants or cares about when that time and resource could be better spent on something else people would clamor or care for. Game development isn't simple after all.

Not that I believe that a Codename Steam character has a decent chance, but this argument has already been moot considering we have already gotten non-clone characters "no-one was clamouring for." Popularity in terms of Smash demands is the least of the disadvantages a Codename Steam character has.

 

[Opossum]

http://mynintendonews.com/2015/01/0...-hunt-joining-the-battle-in-super-smash-bros/

The US/Europe is honestly where it matters as far as game sales considering those countries account for a much bigger percentage of the market than Japan. Earthbound absolutely bombed in America and Xenoblade sales were lackluster due to the distribution methods.

But the kicker is that sales absolutely don't matter. If it's a fresh Smash, people are gonna buy the game anyway. If a character shows potential that no one else can, their odds are even better. The only time I even remember Sakurai mentioning sales is when he said Duck Hunt was the best selling shooter game, but even that was attributed more to history than economics.

People using G&W, ROB, and Duck Hunt as counter-arguments to "relevancy" claims is one of the dumbest ways to justify saying a character has a good chance.

"These retro characters with significant Nintendo history got in, surely this year-old character whom no one gives a crap about even now stands a good chance!"

There's no need for unnecessarily petty insults.

I don't think the developer should really be used as a way to dismiss the comparisons. Yeah IS is more well known then the creators of those franchises, but that doesn't mean that Sakurai would give STEAM more priority just because of it. If Sakurai liked one of the other franchises more, he'd get content from them, and he has shown that he's willing to do that since Heracles has a trophy and FF has a trophy.

Also, to be honest, none of them got that good marketing. STEAM was shown in directs and had the roundtable, but when push came to shove, they just left it alone to fend for itself when it came to release and it was forgotten as a result. Also, while I like STEAM more, Fossil Fighters is probably less obscure since it has longevity on its side and was at least decently successful all things considered.

What I meant by that was more so that Sakurai's close with and a fan of Intelligent Systems, especially if his Fire Emblem fandom is anything to go by. I'm just saying it'd be easier for him to take notice of and possibly add a character from IS over another company purely by already-established connections.