Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Shroob]

I'll never understand why Nintendo decided to do a cross-promotion with Krystal for three Starfox games.
I mean, I don't get why you need to promote a fast food chain in a Nintendo game. Even if they are good.

I don't think I've ever heard of a fast food place called Krystal before.

 

[jahkzheng]

Star Fox Zero is a soft reboot. Basically, they'll be disregarding the elements that didn't work. Ala anything that wasn't Lylat Wars (even though I personally LOVE SFA).

They may say it now, but Krystal's chances or ever returning are practically non-existent. The best Krystal fans can hope for is that she'll be selectable in a multiplayer mode in a future game.

Seems a bit drastic of a conclusion to say that two and a half games worth of canon will be disregarded into the future of the series just because Star Fox is revisiting Lylat Wars again. It's possible, but I don't think it's the overwhelming likelihood. Like I said, Zero could be seen in a similar light as Zero Mission. For all we know, the next Star Fox game after this one might be set after Assault. Or maybe it'll be a prequel to Zero. Or maybe this is the last Star Fox. All this stuff is possible, but I wouldn't say any one thing is notably more probable than anything else. What does seem probable however is that the history of the franchise wouldn't be so easily tossed aside.

On a personal level, I wish to see the franchise take all the things Assault tried to do and build from there. I think that game had some great ideas that just didn't get fleshed out all the way. One thing I'll definitely miss in Zero is fighting on foot and in multiplayer. Assault didn't handle this the best, but the idea was great. That's what worked in my opinion at least. Back tracking to a 64 formula wasn't the move I'd have preferred though I understand the reasoning. It was a safer move and a better base to build some more experimental ideas from, such as their control scheme. It didn't require having to think of a new story either. That way the focus could be entirely on a new form of gameplay, or at least mostly. This is part of the reason I don't quite see Zero as a deliberate way to "retcon" stuff when it looks more like a way to reintroduce us to the series with new controls and features and levels to make it not seem just like a 64 remake.

 

[PushDustIn]

Because it's literally the lowest form of "depth" imaginable. It's something that is always useful so I don't see the point of it existing when it literally adds nothing to the game as far as depth is concerned. It's cool you have less lag, but why not just make that universal? It's not something that you can choose not to do given the situation, it's always going to be the thing you should be doing.

It would be like driving a car and each time you turn the steering wheel, you have to press a button for it to turn faster. It would be much better to just have a steering wheel without the button and works the same way all the time. The button becomes monotonous at that point.

This has been exactly my argument against it in the past. Since it's always useful to do, why would you choose not to do it?

When I stated that competitive players told me there is depth because it alters how the other person reacts to the attacks. So the followup needs to be based on if you think an L-Cancelling is going to occur or not...or something like that.

 

[Deleted member]

This has been exactly my argument against it in the past. Since it's always useful to do, why would you choose not to do it?

When I stated that competitive players told me there is depth because it alters how the other person reacts to the attacks. So the followup needs to be based on if you think an L-Cancelling is going to occur or not...or something like that.

lol that is like that worst argument ever they gave you because it actually 1. doesn't make sense because you should always be L-Canceling as sitting in the air or ground vulnerable doesn't benefit you at all and coming up sooner lets you able to run away. 2. in the one circumstance where this would be a "mind game", they would have to be doing a jumping attack while you are getting up on the ground which really...doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Kenith]

Because it creates a gap between players and players with frame perfect inputs
If one player uses it, the other is at an unfair disadvantage
If both use it, it's pointless

- One player is more skilled with the game than the other
"unfair disadvantage"

I'm all for moves just generally having less landing lag, but...honestly.

That's a bit ridiculous.

I don't think I've ever heard of a fast food place called Krystal before.

Apparently it basically only exists in a small portion of the United States.

It's headquartered in my state, in fact.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It's cool you have less lag, but why not just make that universal?

That's a very good question.

*laughs*

 

[Frostwraith]

Fun fact: Zelda and Sheik's Light Arrow, as well as Dark Pit's Staff, are actually considered melee attacks rather than projectiles.

If you hit a Metal Box with those moves, you will become metallic.

 

[Deleted member]

One player is more skilled with the game than the other
"unfair disadvantage"

I'm all for moves just generally having less landing lag, but...honestly.

That's a bit ridiculous

Because being able to input a button at a specific frame is certainly "skill"
Games that require frame-perfect reactions are called out on having fake difficulty so why doesn't the same applies here?
Still, Kokonoe explained it better already

 

[FalKoopa]

- One player is more skilled with the game than the other
"unfair disadvantage"

I'm all for moves just generally having less landing lag, but...honestly.

That's a bit ridiculous.

Their point is that they'd prefer a skill that makes you use your brain instead.

I'm not a competitive player, but I find it a bit unnecessary given that it creates a gap between new and old players based on not how well they can read the opponent or use mindgames but on whether they can press L everytime they touch the ground.

 

[Neo Zero]

L Canceling would be a far better mechanic if there was some sort of resource or mechanic that limited how much you could do it (for example, if you had a meter that had, say 2 blocks of meter so you could L Cancel 2 times before it had to recharge).

As Kokonoe says, it's monotonous execution is all. There's no thought to it, you should never not be L Canceling. Pretty much any other mechanic has places where it can be useful but it doesn't invalidate every other option like L Canceling does. You either L Cancel and drop your lag to continue a combo or to make your attack safe or you don't and.....sit in lag and get punished.

 

[Kenith]

Because being able to input a button at a specific frame is certainly "skill"
Games that require frame-perfect reactions are called out on having fake difficulty so why doesn't the same applies here?
Still, Kokonoe explained it better already

Yeah, it is skill. And it's not that precise. It's very easy if you're...actually trying to pull it off.
Like, L-cancelling is in principle the exact same thing as teching. Why do you all hate one but not the other?

 

[New_Dumal]

@Oblivion129

Sorry about only now reply to you, I was traveling and kind of busy before.
So... the tourney. Nice tourney, giant tourney in Brazil.
I'm a bit sad because my pool was the most difficult, with more then 8 high level players trying 4 slots for top 16.
I won by the Winners until the last match until top16, that would be later in the day.
I lost to a Ryu player, I didn't know the MU very well.And than I lost again, now in losers, against a top player from one side of the country.

...17th/128
I'm sad because I don't got into the top16 or top 8 The level was so high...At least I won matches over some top players from here.Player7 won the GF against a 15 year old boy from the south of the country, someone who nobody knew before.
The guy was legendary in the tourney, and plays so well overall. Probably best Ness player in the country, really a fantastic "discovery".
[I forgot to talk before, my tag is Precs]

 

[PushDustIn]

I want to make a game where you have to fight another player (1 vs 1), but you constantly have to press another button to "breath". "breathing" too fast will make your character temporarily power up, and become stronger but weaker defense. Breathing slower will raise defense but lower attack significantly.

I think the mind games in that would be amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Kinda neat Project M has a Auto L Cancel option. I'll host a small Project M tourney on Tuesday with it on. And I won't tell a soul.

 

[Bedoop]

I want to make a game where you have to fight another player (1 vs 1), but you constantly have to press another button to "breath". "breathing" too fast will make your character temporarily power up, and become stronger but weaker defense. Breathing slower will raise defense but lower attack significantly.

I think the mind games in that would be amazing.

But what happens if you don't breath

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Because it creates a gap between players and players with frame perfect inputs
If one player uses it, the other is at an unfair disadvantage
If both use it, it's pointless

I've never really understood this point tbh.

Melee has like 20 million techniques or something and removing l cancelling wouldn't do jack to lower the gap between casuals and high levels.

 

[Baskerville]

lol I completely forgot about Federation Force until MasterofMonster mentioned it.
About L Cancelling, I'd rather they had just reduced the landing lag universally. The amount of lag some characters have is just absurd.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd actual find L-Cancelling something that increases the tier gap if it required any real effort. It's too easy to pull off for anyone and requires barely any decent timing. I've been doing it for years with no issues and I'm hardly a "competitive player". Wavedashing requires far more effort and isn't even that hard either.

If auto-Cancelling wasn't utter trash and it didn't only apply to certain moves, and not even balanced around the characters who need it more(like the slow as hell ones), I'd advocate for it. But it doesn't. L-Cancelling is entirely balanced and has such a low skill ceiling that all it does is force players to think just a tad more. Every other Melee tech required harder timing as well(well, besides the basic moves like Shield Roll and such which technically count as Techs. But everything besides those basic Techs and L-Cancelling are Advanced Techniques., and the reward for some of them wasn't always good. Wavedashing doesn't benefit every character equally at all. The original Dancing Blade was very difficult to get off just right. It's now "easy mode", albeit, it's not that bothersome in that case. I don't like easy mode moves, really. They don't feel fun or rewarding. A little bit of effort is fine. Dancing Blade was a bit too much at times, so I think Marth was best in Brawl. L-Cancelling how often was fun and rewarding. Same with regular Teching. It kept players on their toes, but the skill gap it created was so little in difference it's completely exaggerated. Melee even fixed this by having it cut only half the lag, so it doesn't make a huge difference. It however was a far more important tool in 64, as it cut all lag.

 

[Neo Zero]

I want to make a game where you have to fight another player (1 vs 1), but you constantly have to press another button to "breath". "breathing" too fast will make your character temporarily power up, and become stronger but weaker defense. Breathing slower will raise defense but lower attack significantly.

I think the mind games in that would be amazing.

Geez Push, that'd be silly. Next you'll tell me you want it to have realistic tripping mechanics. Good thing that'll never happe-

Doh

 

[Deleted member]

I've never really understood this point tbh.

Melee has like 20 million techniques or something and removing l cancelling wouldn't do jack to lower the gap between casuals and high levels.

L-Cancelling is honestly mandatory to compete with people who play Melee. So although a high level player is going to win regardless, the actual curve between them is actually significantly greater due to L-Cancelling alone despite how skilled a top level player will be. Specially if you love the spacies.

 

[FalKoopa]

Undertale reference in the title? I don't know which mod did it, but you are

• gonna have a bad time
• MEETING ALL MY STANDARDS
• deserve a medal.

Pick one.

 

[Deleted member]

I want to make a game where you have to fight another player (1 vs 1), but you constantly have to press another button to "breath". "breathing" too fast will make your character temporarily power up, and become stronger but weaker defense. Breathing slower will raise defense but lower attack significantly.

I think the mind games in that would be amazing.

That could be a neat mechanic for a Smash character! And we all know who it should be for!

Spoiler

Joseph Joestar confirmed!

 

[BluePikmin11]

Hey @Con0rrrr , I just want to say that your review of Ultra Smash was really good, basically described every problem I had in a unique way.

 

[New_Dumal]

Kinda neat Project M has a Auto L Cancel option. I'll host a small Project M tourney on Tuesday with it on. And I won't tell a soul.

10/10 , I would play.
L-Cancel was almost tripping-like of stupid.
You need to press a button everytime you are landing with a attack...incredible ¬¬

 

[Baskerville]

NOTHING will be even close to as bad as tripping.

 

[Champ Gold]

I want to make a game where you have to fight another player (1 vs 1), but you constantly have to press another button to "breath". "breathing" too fast will make your character temporarily power up, and become stronger but weaker defense. Breathing slower will raise defense but lower attack significantly.

I think the mind games in that would be amazing.

Congratulations Push, you just made a new playstyle for

 

[PushDustIn]

But what happens if you don't breath

You lose HP, obviously.

Geez Push, that'd be silly. Next you'll tell me you want it to have realistic tripping mechanics. Good thing that'll never happe-

Doh

Now now if it was realistic Lucas would be tripping all the time.

 

[Frostwraith]

Now now if it was realistic Lucas would be tripping all the time.

You can still have him trip whenever you want. Use the up taunt.

Oh, and I heard Luigi in Brawl had a 2% chance of tripping rather than the usual 1%.

Overall, random tripping was a silly feature. Not that I ever had a lot of problems with it, but Smash 3DS/Wii U is better off without it anyway. Of course, you can still trip foes with certain moves or the Banana Peel item.

 

[Deleted member]

Champ Gold all this time I didn't know you were rdg...

I'm also from Houston, funnily enough.

 

[Champ Gold]

Champ Gold all this time I didn't know you were rdg...

I'm also from Houston, funnily enough.

Really?
You still live there?
Also I need to put my former name on my profile.

 

[TheAnvil]

Seems a bit drastic of a conclusion to say that two and a half games worth of canon will be disregarded into the future of the series just because Star Fox is revisiting Lylat Wars again. It's possible, but I don't think it's the overwhelming likelihood. Like I said, Zero could be seen in a similar light as Zero Mission. For all we know, the next Star Fox game after this one might be set after Assault. Or maybe it'll be a prequel to Zero. Or maybe this is the last Star Fox. All this stuff is possible, but I wouldn't say any one thing is notably more probable than anything else. What does seem probable however is that the history of the franchise wouldn't be so easily tossed aside.

On a personal level, I wish to see the franchise take all the things Assault tried to do and build from there. I think that game had some great ideas that just didn't get fleshed out all the way. One thing I'll definitely miss in Zero is fighting on foot and in multiplayer. Assault didn't handle this the best, but the idea was great. That's what worked in my opinion at least. Back tracking to a 64 formula wasn't the move I'd have preferred though I understand the reasoning. It was a safer move and a better base to build some more experimental ideas from, such as their control scheme. It didn't require having to think of a new story either. That way the focus could be entirely on a new form of gameplay, or at least mostly. This is part of the reason I don't quite see Zero as a deliberate way to "retcon" stuff when it looks more like a way to reintroduce us to the series with new controls and features and levels to make it not seem just like a 64 remake.

It's not so much "revisiting" Lylat Wars, as it is a reboot of the franchise. Which means, getting rid of what didn't work. Krystal, despite my enjoyment of her, largely didn't work. Doing a sequel to Star Fox Assault now isn't going to happen when those games don't actually exist in the Star Fox cannon (which is what Reboots do).

It's for the best. Star Fox was left in a horrible position after Assault and was only made worse by Command. A reboot was the only way to get things back on track.

 

[Deleted member]

Really?
You still live there?
Also I need to put my former name on my profile.

Currently in Baytown, but I'm working to get back into Houston within the next few months.

 

[FalKoopa]

It's not so much "revisiting" Lylat Wars, as it is a reboot of the franchise. Which means, getting rid of what didn't work. Krystal, despite my enjoyment of her, largely didn't work. Doing a sequel to Star Fox Assault now isn't going to happen when those games don't actually exist in the Star Fox cannon (which is what Reboots do).

It's for the best. Star Fox was left in a horrible position after Assault and was only made worse by Command. A reboot was the only way to get things back on track.

Are you also implying that she can't be made to work? That's a bit over-confident to assume.

 

[Champ Gold]

Currently in Baytown, but I'm working to get back into Houston within the next few months.

I would have recommended staying there but I forgot it's boring there.

It's about as bland as Missouri City and Sugar Land.

Even been to Baytown Seafood yet?

 

[Deleted member]

I would have recommended staying there but I forgot it's boring there.

It's about as bland as Missouri City and Sugar Land.

Even been to Baytown Seafood yet?

I haven't, but yeah it is pretty dull here that's for sure. Honestly, I've been in Houston my whole life up until almost a year ago when I had to move out here due to financial issues. I miss the diverse restaurants Houston has.

How is Baytown Seafood?

 

[Champ Gold]

I haven't, but yeah it is pretty dull here that's for sure. Honestly, I've been in Houston my whole life up until almost a year ago when I had to move out here due to financial issues. I miss the diverse restaurants Houston has.

How is Baytown Seafood?

Ehh. I rather take places like Pappa's Seafood and Monument Inn (that's in San Jacinto by the monument and ship channel) for seafood.

I technically live in Houston but I'm moreso in Humble where atleast there's a mall here than driving for an hour to go to the others

 

[MasterofMonster]

lol I completely forgot about Federation Force until MasterofMonster mentioned it.
About L Cancelling, I'd rather they had just reduced the landing lag universally. The amount of lag some characters have is just absurd.

Maybe it is good people are forgetting about it. That means it might have a chance to make a new, good impression when they show it again.

 

[CroonerMike]

As much I as dislike Krystal, that's just mean spirited.

Nah, it's my opinion. Nice try though

 

[Deleted member]

I always thought this character was cooler than Krystal tbh.

dogs rule!

 

[Spazzy_D]

This has been exactly my argument against it in the past. Since it's always useful to do, why would you choose not to do it?

When I stated that competitive players told me there is depth because it alters how the other person reacts to the attacks. So the followup needs to be based on if you think an L-Cancelling is going to occur or not...or something like that.

I believe Soma's argument was more about making the opponent aware of when you actually initiate the L-Cancel, but he still agrees you should L-Cancel every time.