Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[AwesomeAussie27]

Holy ****, ****onami is actually making more console games?




I'm still not getting my hopes high for a new Castlevania though.

 

[Frostwraith]

People saying "Hyrule Warriors handles them better" is one thing (and let's be honest, regardless of the advantageous circumstance it had, that is the truth).

What I'm saying is that this doesn't matter anymore. Comparing past Smash games to Hyrule Warriors obviously achieves nothing, but it is valid to compare future Smash games' representation of Zelda characters to Hyrule Warriors because they have the ability to directly reference and take inspiration from Hyrule Warriors going forward. It wasn't the case with Smash 4 because of the fact Smash likely started development first, but that's not the case with a Smash NX, port or otherwise.

That comment of yours I quoted implied that we can't compare a future Smash game to Hyrule Warriors, which is what I take issue with. We absolutely can, it's completely fair to do so. Different development cycles, design philosophies, etc, make no difference to this, because that's a given with putting ANY character from another game into Smash. And once again, the design philosophies of the games are still comparable - they are both games built to be 1) easy to pick up, hard to master, and 2) games designed to pay homage to some kind of huge video game legacy.

I was not talking about future Smash games in any way. Not sure how did you exactly pull this idea out of my post.

 

[ChikoLad]

I was not talking about future Smash games in any way. Not sure how did you exactly pull this idea out of my post.

And before someone brings Hyrule Warriors regarding on how the three Links could be so different: don't.

The current discussion was regarding a Smash NX and what could be added to it, and then you said this at the end of your post.

 

[Frostwraith]

The current discussion was regarding a Smash NX and what could be added to it, and then you said this at the end of your post.

I see no reference to a future Smash Bros. in any of the quotes you provided.

I was just mentioning that Hyrule Warriors handled things differently than how Smash has been handling them.

Given how Smash has more or less stuck to its ways for over 15 years, I doubt any major change will happen in the meantime... Unless a new director takes over or Sakurai decides to reboot the franchise in a way.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Holy ****, ****onami is actually making more console games?




I'm still not getting my hopes high for a new Castlevania though.

Yeah, try not to get your hopes too high.

They would rather make money off your average middle aged gambler instead of their core audience. Even if they are making more console games, they would probably be barebones.

 

[wedl!!]

Today us sophomores had to playtest the betas of the junior's first Gamemaker projects.

One of the games had a midi of Bring Me to Life by Evanescence playing.

I...

 

[Curious Villager]

I wouldn't really expect the Zelda cast to receive any drastic changes in a future game just to reflect on their incarnations in Hyrule Warriors, but I suppose I can see them taking a few cues here and there though.

Since the characters (With the exception of Young Link but I suppose he still counts) have stuck around for more than one game now, I can't really see Sakurai changing them that much in the next game. I believe I recall him stating a few times that he doesn't enjoy doing any drastic overhauls in case of potentially alienating any fans who have enjoyed the characters original movesets. Which is why characters like Ganondorf, Falco, Bowser, Pit etc, while receiving some tweaks here and there, still retain most of their old abilities from past instalments, it freshens up the characters on their moveset while still remaining a bit familiar to the fans who enjoyed playing as them in the past.

Plus since development time is very limited, I'd imagine the dev's would rather spend that time working on brand new newcomers than recreating a veteran fighter with a brand new moveset from scratch.

Just my two cents on that.

 

[Z25]

Anyone still making Mario Maker stages? I'm not making videos but I'll play them if you want

I have not yet,
But I will be going back to them eventually. I have a lot of games to play through xD

 

[Frostwraith]

Donkey Kong and Link got spiced up a bit with new dash attacks (and ones inspired by their games to boot!).

Samus got a new neutral aerial. Zero Suit Samus got a new forward Smash, up Special and a Z-air. Captain Falcon's jab works differently (can either end in the knee or multiple punches, instead of the knee followed by the multiple punches). Sonic has a new down Smash.

Zelda got a new down Special. Sheik got two new Special moves.

Luigi, Pit, Charizard, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby and King Dedede all have new Final Smashes. Other Final Smashes got adjustments like Peach's or Ness and Lucas's PK Starstorm.

Overall, however, the characters are more or less the same as previous games. Even Pit and Bowser aren't that much different. It just seems so because their animations were drastically overhauled (like what happened with the Melee clones after that game).

In Pit's case, the only major differences are the up and side Specials. The Guardian Orbitars serve the same purpose as the Mirror Shield, but now affect both sides and can break. Functionally, it's just a tweaked move, but aesthetically, it does look different, involving a different weapon altogether.

Likewise, Bowser has only four different moves: forward Smash, back aerial, dash attack and neutral aerial. They still function very similarly to the previous moves anyway. His down aerial, while keeping the same animation, was given a falling effect like Toon Link or Sheik's down aerials.

Yoshi also had adjustments to his animations in both Brawl and Smash 3DS/Wii U, but retains the same general feel as Smash 64 and Melee.

There have never been any complete overhauls to characters throughout the entire series. Just some move differences here and there, along with adjustments in attributes, animations and balancing.

This precedent and general philosophy to how Smash handles character movesets is why the Zelda cast is in a tough position when it comes to implementing the many things brought to the characters in games released after Melee.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not even talking about complete overhauls.

Is it really asking too much that Toon Link use the Deku Leaf in some shape or form, just for one move? Or that Ganondorf use his sword or indeed, ANY established move from the Zelda games?

The whole point of my post was to say that you shouldn't tell people to not ask for changes to characters. If people don't at least show a demand, it will definitely never happen. And to show that it's valid to think they should draw more inspiration from Hyrule Warriors.

Also for the record, Luigi and Falco are now almost completely different than when they started out.

 

[Wario Bros.]

Just noticed I missed the Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres distribution...

Crap. At least I can still grab Darkrai, Zygarde and shiny Xerneas & Yveltal.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'm not even talking about complete overhauls.

Is it really asking too much that Toon Link use the Deku Leaf in some shape or form, just for one move?

The whole point of my post was to say that you shouldn't tell people to not ask for changes to characters. If people don't at least show a demand, it will definitely never happen.

I've never been that big of a fan of the idea of Toon Link using the Deku Leaf in his moveset. Most of the time it's suggested to be used as a F.L.U.D.D. like weapon to replace his up special which I'm not sure how I would feel about that imo....

However, if it's used like Peach's parasol or Mr.Game & Watch's parachute where it gets activated after he performed his spin attack when in the air, then I wouldn't mind that at all really.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's asking for quite a lot. Ganondorf uses his sword more than enough, and he doesn't even use a sword in his original characterization. He was a fully magical brute. Which is what he does. Using his sword for one move and a taunt is perfect, because he's not supposed to naturally be a swordsman. The issue is he has never used his Dead Man's Volley, a move he had since the start. One that's truly defining to him as a spell. And the only spell he uses in combat often.

Honestly, Toon Link really doesn't need all that stuff. He's still a form of Link, a hero that uses his most well known tools among the games. The ones that they used the most. Sword, Hookshot(and variations), Boomerang, Bow, and Bombs. The fact of the matter is, adding new moves is just changing it for the sake of changing it. If anything, he should have one of his Hammers, something all the Toon versions of Link are well known for using. The Deku Leaf is a one-off item. He already has his much more unique version of the Boomerang from WW, which is perfect.

Basically, if we're going to separate them more, giving them actual iconic moves that the version of the character is well known for using, not a one-off item that seems cool. I agree Toon Link could be more unique. But there's multiple ways to do it, and going with items used in multiple Toon Link games is the best way because it's more iconic.

Also, Ganondorf only technically has a sword in Smash because of the tech demo. One that never was made into a full game based upon it. Him being swordless when he didn't even have one at any moment(nor used one) in OOT is the most logical. Him using his sword for more than an alternate move is implying his magic is less important than his swordsmanship, which actually is incorrect about the character. Ganondorf is a mage first, the owner of the Triforce of Power second, and a swordsman third. The first and second thing can be arguably switched around, but the third thing is factual. Sometimes I wish the tech demo never existed so people would stop misinterpreting his proper Melee characterization. Him being a clone's only issue was that he never used Dead Man's Volley at best.

 

[ChikoLad]

I've never been that big of a fan of the idea of Toon Link using the Deku Leaf in his moveset. Most of the time it's suggested to be used as a F.L.U.D.D. like weapon to replace his up special which I'm not sure how I would feel about that imo.

However, if it's used like Peach's parasol or Mr.Game & Watch's parachute where it gets activated after he performed his spin attack when in the air, then I wouldn't mind that at all really.

It doesn't have to a special even.

In Hyrule Warriors, he has an aerial combo attack, where he swipes twice with the Deku Leaf, and then delivers a finishing attack that blasts some wind. He then has the option to follow up with a slam to ground.

Something like that would be perfect in Smash.

It's asking for quite a lot. Ganondorf uses his sword more than enough, and he doesn't even use a sword in his original characterization. He was a fully magical brute. Which is what he does. Using his sword for one move and a taunt is perfect, because he's not supposed to naturally be a swordsman. The issue is he has never used his Dead Man's Volley, a move he had since the start. One that's truly defining to him as a spell. And the only spell he uses in combat often.

Honestly, Toon Link really doesn't need all that stuff. He's still a form of Link, a hero that uses his most well known tools among the games. The ones that they always used. Sword, Hookshot(and variations, Boomerang, Bow, and Bombs. The fact of the matter is, adding new moves is just changing it for the sake of changing it. If anything, he should have one of his Hammers, something all the Toon versions of Link are well known for using. The Deku Leaf is a one-off item. He already has his much more unique version of the Boomerang from WW, which is perfect.

Regular Link has changed his toolset and references according to whether it was The Hero of Time, or the Hero of Twilight we played as.

The Hero of Winds should get at least one of his unique tools too.

 

[Wario Bros.]

https://www.humblebundle.com/friends-of-nintendo-3ds-wiiu

So 3 more titles were added to the Humble Nintendo bundle:

- Sword & Soldiers II (Wii U)
- Nano Assault EX (3DS)
- Runbow (Wii U)

I MIGHT invest in this bundle despite that I own 5 of the titles included.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Link has not done anything of the sort. The Clawshot and Hookshot function 100% the same in Smash. He got a slightly more unique Boomerang. That's... it.

Toon Link had more unique Bomb properties than Young and regular Links.

What you're talking about doesn't exist. Slightly modifying what is effectively the same weapon is not a unique tool. The Deku Leaf is a poor example because it's a one-shot item that isn't used in any other game whatsoever. For that matter, it does not define Toon Link, who is effectively the hero of tons of games. WW, PH, ST, at the very least. But also is the same artstyle used for the remake of ALttP, Minish Cap, and all the Four Swords games in general. He has actual continuous items to draw from. Likewise, he's pretty much the same design used for ALBW too. He has tons of iconic items to draw from over... the Deku Leaf, which isn't ultimately as memorable as the Hammer, which is in far more games, and had the most unique uses in OOT, WW, and PH overall. Whether it's how it's controlled, or the puzzles used. This is a better example because it's a heavily used item by Toon Link in general. Adult Link uses it too, but only his OOT self(which isn't the one in Smash anymore) ever used it as more than a quick "destroy block" move like in the 2D games. The fact it could be swung in different directions in OOT mattered. WW allowed you to squish enemies. You could hit anywhere with it in PH. I may have forgotten some games where it has more unique uses than "push down a peg" or "swing at an enemy for some decent damage". I don't think it can even remove Darknut's shields in any official games, just in Zelda Classic or other hacks.

I know you want to make them more unique, but look at their current movelist now. Any unique items or attacks are all based upon iconic items. Especially just the fact that at best, they slightly modify it by using an updated version of the same weapon. The Clawshot is not really different from the Hookshot in general, it just has more freedom in how you can move. It was what happened when you combined the Hookshot and the Grappling Hook overall. And it was awesome because of that. But is it highly unique? No. Name an item similar to the Deku Leaf in both design and function. You're not going to find it because it wasn't that defining of an item to reuse. It was cool, yes. But defining? Not really.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think the movesets of the characters in Smash 4 are set in stone for future instalments of the series. So, I don't expect much in the way of Wind Waker inspired moves for Toon Link, which also makes it harder for Young Link to be ever included in Smash. A bit of a lose-lose situation for both Toon Link and Young Link fans, imo.

While Sakurai likes to avoid drastic changes to movesets, it seems that changes to make characters more faithful to their series are generally well received, even if it means that skills from the previous Smash game can't transfer over properly now. Most people happy to see the changes done to Sheik, for example.

 

[ChikoLad]

Link has not done anything of the sort. The Clawshot and Hookshot function 100% the same in Smash. He got a slightly more unique Boomerang. That's... it.

Toon Link had more unique Bomb properties than Young and regular Links.

What you're talking about doesn't exist. Slightly modifying what is effectively the same weapon is not a unique tool. The Deku Leaf is a poor example because it's a one-shot item that isn't used in any other game whatsoever. For that matter, it does not define Toon Link, who is effectively the hero of tons of games. WW, PH, ST, at the very least. But also is the same artstyle used for the remake of ALttP, Minish Cap, and all the Four Swords games in general. He has actual continuous items to draw from. Likewise, he's pretty much the same design used for ALBW too. He has tons of iconic items to draw from over... the Deku Leaf, which isn't ultimately as memorable as the Hammer, which is in far more games, and had the most unique uses in OOT, WW, and PH overall. Whether it's how it's controlled, or the puzzles used. This is a better example because it's a heavily used item by Toon Link in general. Adult Link uses it too, but only his OOT self(which isn't the one in Smash anymore) ever used it as more than a quick "destroy block" move like in the 2D games. The fact it could be swung in different directions in OOT mattered. WW allowed you to squish enemies. You could hit anywhere with it in PH. I may have forgotten some games where it has more unique uses than "push down a peg" or "swing at an enemy for some decent damage". I don't think it can even remove Darknut's shields in any official games, just in Zelda Classic or other hacks.

I know you want to make them more unique, but look at their current movelist now. Any unique items or attacks are all based upon iconic items. Especially just the fact that at best, they slightly modify it by using an updated version of the same weapon. The Clawshot is not really different from the Hookshot in general, it just has more freedom in how you can move. It was what happened when you combined the Hookshot and the Grappling Hook overall. And it was awesome because of that. But is it highly unique? No. Name an item similar to the Deku Leaf in both design and function. You're not going to find it because it wasn't that defining of an item to reuse. It was cool, yes. But defining? Not really.

Your entire argument is moot because:

-Hero of Winds is only WW AND PT, not ST. Smash also specifically mentions that he is the Hero of Winds. The other "Toon Links" are irrelevant to the one we have in Smash.

-Hyrule Warriors brought back the Deku Leaf for Toon Link, solidifying it as a defining weapon of his going forward (though WW was enough for this because you made use of it a lot in that game).

Also I was referring to how they changed the aesthetics of Link's weapons to represent the specific Link, showing that Sakurai does pay attention to which version of the Hero is represented and that they have the correct tools.

Regular Link has not acquired new weapons in Smash because he doesn't need them, he stands out with just the classic set, as it distinctly has always been his from the first Smash game onward. However, Toon Link represents a completely different side of the Zelda universe than regular Link and Young Link. Having him continue to just be a clone of the regular Link feels wrong. He should have at least one or two unique tools for a move or two. Otherwise, I see no point in him being there. Saying this as a fan of the character.

This is no different to how I thought there would be no point in Rosalina being in Smash if she was just going to be a "Peach clone/alt", which is all the Smash community seemed to be able to come up with. It would completely misrepresent her.

Frankly I'm not interested in arbitrary traditions for Smash clones anymore. Especially now that customs exist. We've already seen Smash do things like giving Fox some of Wolf's old moves as customs. Why not just do that for more characters, re-inventing the clone as a more original character, and giving the old clone moves to the clone source as customs? It's the best of both worlds.

 

[Ura]

I don't see Young Link coming back to Smash so easily, considering Toon Link pretty much inherited his quirks as a Link clone.

Both share key aspects in terms of moveset and aesthetic design in relation to Link:
1. Faster, but weaker and with lower reach
2. Spin Attack on the ground deals multiple hits
3. Down Smash has the first hit connect into the second
4. Sword hits use a smacking sound effects instead of slash
5. In Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U, Toon Link can use the Fire Arrows as a custom move

However, there are differences between Young Link and Toon Link:
1. Toon Link's up Smash deals 1 hit instead of 3
2. Toon Link doesn't use kicking moves (meaning the neutral and back aerials and the forward and back throws are different)

However, considering Falco, Roy and Ganondorf also got similar moveset and aesthetic changes in games released after Melee to make them less clones, you can argue that Toon Link's moveset is a similar treatment to Young Link's moveset.

Characterization-wise, they are different characters, which gets reflected in stuff like taunts, win poses and trophy descriptions, hence why Toon Link was introduced as a newcomer in Brawl. Gameplay-wise, he's essentially a semi-cloned Young Link.

The only thing I could see in regards to Young Link returning would be diverging his moveset in a different direction from that of Toon Link. Perhaps, the Fierce Deity Mask could come into play as a Final Smash, for example, as well as some different animations and other such similar changes to normal and special moves. Sakurai may just see too much overlap to include both Young Link and Toon Link at once, though.

And before someone brings Hyrule Warriors regarding on how the three Links could be so different: don't. Smash and HW are two different games, belonging to different genres, with different inception time periods, development histories and design philosophies. I don't think it's fair to compare both games on how they handled the same 6 characters in common (Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Young Link, Toon Link).

Wow really? Don't compare HW with Smash Bros? I don't see anything wrong with making the comparison. Not that your wrong about character movesets not crossing over between games but the fact that HW had 3 different Links and it wasn't a serious problem like some people claim will be a problem if 3 Links are in Smash Bros. What's the frigging big deal anyways? Mario has 3 different variations of his moveset in Smash Bros and nobody makes a big deal out of it. Having 2 different Link clones isn't a big problem. If anything TLink ends up as the Luigi to Link's Mario and YLink is the Dr. Mario in this case. Even better YLink goes beyond being a clone and incorporates his MM transformation masks as part of his moveset and becomes unique on his own. With the amount of sheer moveset potential it's honestly a shame that so many people write him off unfairly because "lel we already have Toon Link in this game". Just saying. I know you said you didn't want to turn this in to a major debate and neither do I really but I just had to vent my frustrations with this common perception because it seems to be everywhere I go.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Links carry so much weaponry, I'd like to see a unique Toon Link. Using weapons as normal attacks (i.e. Skull Hammer forward smash) has the potential to make him extremely interesting. Several of the weapons would work well as Smash moves.

Yet, it feels like Sakurai designed Toon Link to literally be "short fast higher tier Link". This classification makes for few differences between them. As that is what the character is supposed to be initially like, adding different moves is unlikely.

 

[Curious Villager]

Toon Link's trophy references on him making an appearance in both Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks, despite that the Hero of Winds never made an appearance in that game. They even went as far as to replace conductor Link with Alfonzo whenever Toon Link is on the spirit train stage (Granted the same thing happens when Link is on stage but Sakurai seemed to have made this change in particular due to Toon Link.)

So in that sense, Toon Link does seem to be a representation of all Link's who have carried his design when it comes to Smash, similar to how Link represents all Link's in the Zelda series. (Although more specifically, he represents Link whenever he appeared as a child throughout the series)

Eitherway, I do like the idea of giving Toon Link the hammer as his weapon a better idea overall. As it's still also an iconic weapon of Link's arsenal that has made many recurring appearances in the past. Most particularly with Toon Link as the hammers in Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass where most particularly unique in the series.

I do wish he got the Hurricane Spin though. I mean he sort of got it as part of his custom moves but still....

 

[Opossum]

This is my favorite thing I've seen so far today.

Civil Cereal War hype.

 

[Z25]

OH MY GOD pic.twitter.com/bBpcSlS3H5

— maria (@matsuurakanan) May 2, 2016

I just saw this on my feed on twitter and couldn’t stop laughing.

 

[Deleted member]

Piracy seems to be available on Wii U now, I'd wager Nintendo will release a Wii U update sometime today or tomorrow.

I'd imagine with this Kernel exploit we can probably start having Smash 4 mods. It the exploit works on every single Wii U out right now.

 

[Aetheri]

Hearing people speak about what the different Links can do, reminds of how lame most of the customs are in this game and what a missed opportunity they are...

 

[Deleted member]

OH MY GOD pic.twitter.com/bBpcSlS3H5

— maria (@matsuurakanan) May 2, 2016

I just saw this on my feed on twitter and couldn’t stop laughing.

Please tell me Umi is the blue haired anime girl

 

[TheAnvil]

If anyone from Europe upgrades their Humble Bundle and doesn't need SF4 or Runbow, I'd love to take them off your hands .

 

[Curious Villager]

Piracy seems to be available on Wii U now, I'd wager Nintendo will release a Wii U update sometime today or tomorrow.

I'd imagine with this Kernel exploit we can probably start having Smash 4 mods. It the exploit works on every single Wii U out right now.

Yeah, for now I'm just waiting for someone to post a video tutorial on how to get things started since things are a little confusing right now in regards to what is possible and what not and how to get everything up and running etc.

This will most likely prompt Ninty to release a system update very soon so if anyone is interested in Smash Wii U mods. You might want to block system updates as soon as you can if you haven't done so yet.

 

[Frostwraith]

OH MY GOD pic.twitter.com/bBpcSlS3H5

— maria (@matsuurakanan) May 2, 2016

I just saw this on my feed on twitter and couldn’t stop laughing.

Ah, that's from Anime Maru, a satirical anime news site. Go there if you want to have more laughs.

Wow really? Don't compare HW with Smash Bros? I don't see anything wrong with making the comparison. Not that your wrong about character movesets not crossing over between games but the fact that HW had 3 different Links and it wasn't a serious problem like some people claim will be a problem if 3 Links are in Smash Bros. What's the frigging big deal anyways? Mario has 3 different variations of his moveset in Smash Bros and nobody makes a big deal out of it. Having 2 different Link clones isn't a big problem. If anything TLink ends up as the Luigi to Link's Mario and YLink is the Dr. Mario in this case. Even better YLink goes beyond being a clone and incorporates his MM transformation masks as part of his moveset and becomes unique on his own. With the amount of sheer moveset potential it's honestly a shame that so many people write him off unfairly because "lel we already have Toon Link in this game". Just saying. I know you said you didn't want to turn this in to a major debate and neither do I really but I just had to vent my frustrations with this common perception because it seems to be everywhere I go.

Here we go again with the misinterpretations of my words.

I said that Smash Bros. and Hyrule Warriors aren't comparable in terms of their inception and how the characters were designed in the first place.

And I never said that Young Link would never return because Toon Link makes him irrelevant. I was pointing out FACTS that Young Link and Toon Link in Smash are very similarly designed, WHILE listing differences between both and how the characters could diverge if Sakurai didn't see them as redundant to each other.

What I said is that, judging by how the Smash series has evolved thus far, it stands to reason that Young Link likely isn't coming back, given Toon Link is designed in a way that makes him redundant. That does not mean it's impossible to both having a place in the same Smash game.

I even suggested the idea of Fierce Deity Link being Young Link's Final Smash... Or did you miss that part? I was trying to show points in favor and against the inclusion of Young Link along with Toon Link in Smash.

I swear it's frustrating to write a detailed argument and not seeing the point come across....

 

[FalKoopa]

I said that Smash Bros. and Hyrule Warriors aren't comparable in terms of their inception and how the characters were designed in the first place.

You should probably explain this part; I don't really see why moves from Hyrule Warriors cannot be adapted into Smash movesets. The only obstacle I can really think of is Sakurai.

 

[Aetheri]

You should probably explain this part; I don't really see why moves from Hyrule Warriors cannot be adapted into Smash movesets. The only obstacle I can really think of is Sakurai.

I don't think that's his point...I think he's talking about the intent and motives behind adding a character into the respective games...

Both Toon Link and Young Link were last minute additions and borrowed a lot from an already existing moveset in Smash unlike in HW were they were made to be their own characters since there was a clear intent behind their additions rather than last minute padding...

 

[Ura]

Ah, that's from Anime Maru, a satirical anime news site. Go there if you want to have more laughs.


Here we go again with the misinterpretations of my words.

I said that Smash Bros. and Hyrule Warriors aren't comparable in terms of their inception and how the characters were designed in the first place.

And I never said that Young Link would never return because Toon Link makes him irrelevant. I was pointing out FACTS that Young Link and Toon Link in Smash are very similarly designed, WHILE listing differences between both and how the characters could diverge if Sakurai didn't see them as redundant to each other.

What I said is that, judging by how the Smash series has evolved thus far, it stands to reason that Young Link likely isn't coming back, given Toon Link is designed in a way that makes him redundant. That does not mean it's impossible to both having a place in the same Smash game.

I even suggested the idea of Fierce Deity Link being Young Link's Final Smash... Or did you miss that part? I was trying to show points in favor and against the inclusion of Young Link along with Toon Link in Smash.

I swear it's frustrating to write a detailed argument and not seeing the point come across....

Sorry, I just wanted to vent my thoughts on this whole Link situation which I feel pretty passionate about mainly because of a lot of people`s perception of it.

Fierce Deity Link as YLink`s Final Smash would make him heavily stand out for sure. I really want YLink to return with his Melee moveset alongside being able to use his MM masks as well. Maybe Sakurai can see what the character can do and will change his mind on the situation one day.

 

[Z25]

Ah, that's from Anime Maru, a satirical anime news site. Go there if you want to have more laughs.


Here we go again with the misinterpretations of my words.

I said that Smash Bros. and Hyrule Warriors aren't comparable in terms of their inception and how the characters were designed in the first place.

And I never said that Young Link would never return because Toon Link makes him irrelevant. I was pointing out FACTS that Young Link and Toon Link in Smash are very similarly designed, WHILE listing differences between both and how the characters could diverge if Sakurai didn't see them as redundant to each other.

What I said is that, judging by how the Smash series has evolved thus far, it stands to reason that Young Link likely isn't coming back, given Toon Link is designed in a way that makes him redundant. That does not mean it's impossible to both having a place in the same Smash game.

I even suggested the idea of Fierce Deity Link being Young Link's Final Smash... Or did you miss that part? I was trying to show points in favor and against the inclusion of Young Link along with Toon Link in Smash.

I swear it's frustrating to write a detailed argument and not seeing the point come across....

I'll have to check that out then! Thanks!

 

[Frostwraith]

You should probably explain this part; I don't really see why moves from Hyrule Warriors cannot be adapted into Smash movesets. The only obstacle I can really think of is Sakurai.

"Inception" and "in the first place", as in, how they were conceived in the projects.

The words are there. Read them.

I don't think that's his point...I think he's talking about the intent and motives behind adding a character into the respective games...

Both Toon Link and Young Link were last minute additions and borrowed a lot from an already existing moveset in Smash unlike in HW were they were made to be their own characters since there was a clear intent behind their additions rather than last minute padding...

Thank you!

This is my point!

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't think that's his point...I think he's talking about the intent and motives behind adding a character into the respective games...

Both Toon Link and Young Link were last minute additions and borrowed a lot from an already existing moveset in Smash unlike in HW were they were made to be their own characters since there was a clear intent behind their additions rather than last minute padding...

This is irrelevant in future Smash games since they have a chance to conceive them differently.

In fact, Toon Link was clearly planned from the beginning in Smash 4 as he was one of the earliest veteran reveals, even being revealed before Zelda herself. So they DID have a chance to change him up a bit in Smash 4, but decided not too. That's where it becomes a problem, when it's just Sakurai refusing to bother changing him.

It's not that I dislike how Toon Link currently plays. Functionally, he's still fun to play. But he still feels too similar to Link for my tastes, especially since Link actually feels much quicker in this game than he did in Brawl. The difference between / is smaller than the difference between /, which bothers me. Toon Link shouldn't feel like MORE of a clone as time goes on, but he does. Yes his customs can help differentiate him a bit, but unfortunately they can't be utilised online, which is the main selling point of this iteration of Smash.

Again, I'm not asking for a complete overhaul (well, I would PREFER one, but I won't push my luck), I just ask for something to help Toon Link feel like more than just as faster alternative to Link, and I think something like the Deku Leaf to give him an expanded aerial game would help with that. Again, this bothers me more in Smash 4 part because they actually made regular Link faster than before, plus you have customs to make him feel even faster still. This is why clones are more of a sticking point for me in Smash 4 than in other games in the series. We can already effectively have a fast Link through customs, so why bother with Toon Link if he's just gonna be fast Link?

Or better yet, if they truly want a fast Link...

Spoiler

 

[FalKoopa]

I don't think that's his point...I think he's talking about the intent and motives behind adding a character into the respective games...

Both Toon Link and Young Link were last minute additions and borrowed a lot from an already existing moveset in Smash unlike in HW were they were made to be their own characters since there was a clear intent behind their additions rather than last minute padding...

"Inception" and "in the first place", as in, how they were conceived in the projects.

The words are there. Read them.


Thank you!

This is my point!

I got that. My question is, should that still be relevant for Smash now? Toon Link and Young Link were created as clones, yes, but grandfather clause aside, is there any reason to keep them that way?

Except for Sakurai's "vision", I don't think we're going to lose anything by changing them up and bringing them more in line with their Zelda appearances. They are created as clones doesn't mean they have to stay as clones forever, especially since you have customs and can easily implement different moves into the characters.

Keeping Toon Link a clone makes him less faithful to his own games and also serves as an obstacle to Young Link's inclusion. This... just seems like all-around bad idea, just kept there for the sake of tradition.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Link and Toon Link actually feel more different from each other than they did in Brawl imo. They've done a few tweaks to Link's moveset instead of Toon Link in this game (Such as his dash attack, ledge attack and aerials) and considering how poorly Link has performed throughout the series competitively whereas Toon Link has done fairly well. I think it makes more sense for them to focus more on Link and address his issues.

From a gameplay standpoint, I think Link is probably the one that could make do with some more changes imo. Although I wouldn't mind some further tweaks for Toon Link as well.

 

[ChikoLad]

I think Link and Toon Link actually feel more different from each other than they did in Brawl imo. They've done a few tweaks to Link's moveset instead of Toon Link in this game (Such as his dash attack, ledge attack and aerials) and considering how poorly Link has performed throughout the series competitively whereas Toon Link has done fairly well. I think it makes more sense for them to focus more on Link and address his issues.

From a gameplay standpoint, I think Link is probably the one that could make do with some more changes imo.

Make Toon Link completely different and then they have a less of a cap on Link's frame data and other attributes.

Having Toon Link relegated to "fast Link", inherently limits Link, as they have to arbitrarily make sure he's not TOO fast so as to not make Toon Link seem COMPLETELY redundant. Same with stuff like Toon Link having better bombs and a more reliable Boomerang, and farther shooting arrows. If Toon Link wasn't a clone of Link and was his own thing, they could pass Toon Link's superior properties onto Link.

 

[Ura]

I had a thought not to long ago.

Do you guys think that minecart levels or the implementation of minecarts in general came from Donkey Kong Country? The reason I say this is because I noticed a spike in minecart levels post DKC so I thought that game might have popularized that platform genre.

Games i've seen it in...

- Golden Sun
- Crash Bandicoot Wrath of Cortex
- Super Smash Bros Brawl

There's probably a lot more games that uses this but it was just a thought I had.

 

[FalKoopa]

I had a thought not to long ago.

Do you guys think that minecart levels or the implementation of minecarts in general came from Donkey Kong Country? The reason I say this is because I noticed a spike in minecart levels post DKC so I thought that game might have popularized that platform genre.

Games i've seen it in...

- Golden Sun
- Crash Bandicoot Wrath of Cortex
- Super Smash Bros Brawl

There's probably a lot more games that uses this but it was just a thought I had.

How could you forget the Great Cave Offensive in Kirby?

Although I do think it was popularised by Donkey Kong.