Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[ChikoLad]

Currently at least, FE is getting more focus than either of those.

That's like saying "Zelda is a bigger franchise than Mario because Zelda is getting the bigger focus right now".

Or "Fire Emblem is a bigger franchise than Mario because Fates is coming out in May in Europe".

And I don't see how you can comfortably say Animal Crossing is "less focused on" when it's basically the new "main" amiibo line now that the Smash line has pretty much wrapped up. It doesn't have any big console game upcoming at the moment (to our knowledge), but it's not like Nintendo hasn't been doing something big with the franchise.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

You'd comfortably call Fire Emblem an a-tier, over Animal Crossing and Donkey Kong?

This.

At least DK's got two well received post-Rare platformers going for it. While the Animal Crossing series is still going strong with a new game per platform (few being spinoffs). And don't get me started on the overpromotion of the latter (Animal Crossing Amiibo cards/figures, Izzy and Villager DLC in Mario Kart, etc).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Unveiling it this year will kill the Wii U holiday season even more....

The Wii U doesn't have much left to offer anyway.

 

[ChikoLad]

Wario Bros. hit me up with an early download code last week or so, and it's actually been really enjoyable. Of the Mario amiibo, I only have Mario, Yoshi, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong, but it's nonetheless less enjoyable. I actually plan on picking up Luigi specifically for it, since his levels look neat. Still confused as to why Wario's not compatible beyond the generic levels though. I like how some levels are genuinely challenging, too. One of Yoshi's later levels in particular comes to mind.

That was the last level I finished before taking a break.

Getting that Gold token requires some real outside of the box thinking.

I'm downloading the 3DS version now to try that one out...though I wish it had cross-save.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Swamp Sensei I know you wanted to know

From Famitsu

Star Fox zero bundle (Zero+Guard) sold 17.063k
Star Fox Zero (solo) sold 8.175k

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Real talk. I'm glad FE got to be a major IP instead of Advance Wars. **** that game. It's more strategy based so every turn matters, which isn't bad. What is bad is how many times they spamm the **** out of Fog of War. It's not strategy when you're only victory condition is capturing the base, you only have 2 human units, can't make more and are stuck in fog of war. It's not strategy but luck, you HAVE to know where everything is beforehand to stand a chance. **** that

I don't say this very often...

But bruh, get good.

And it uses fog of war as much as Fire Emblem does.

 

[FalKoopa]

Uh. Animal Crossing is getting a mobile game, was in Mario Kart, had a Wii U game, a 3DS game and a dedicated Amiibo line. DK is constantly relevant as he's in all the Mario spinoffs, just had another Wii U/3DS game with Mario, etc etc.

That's like saying "Zelda is a bigger franchise than Mario because Zelda is getting the bigger focus right now".

Or "Fire Emblem is a bigger franchise than Mario because Fates is coming out in May in Europe".

And I don't see how you can comfortably say Animal Crossing is "less focused on" when it's basically the new "main" amiibo line now that the Smash line has pretty much wrapped up. It doesn't have any big console game upcoming at the moment (to our knowledge), but it's not like Nintendo hasn't been doing something big with the franchise.

I admit the AC stuff had escaped my mind. Edited my post.

As for DK, as a character he will always be relevant; that's a given since he's Miyamoto's creation.

But DKC as a franchise is definitely getting less focus than FE.

 

[TheAnvil]

Great, with this Mini Mario & Friends game, it means I have to go hunt down a Rosalina Amiibo and those things are damn expensive.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

This.

At least DK's got two well received post-Rare platformers going for it. While the Animal Crossing series is still going strong with a new game per platform (few being spinoffs). And don't get me started on the overpromotion of the latter (Animal Crossing Amiibo cards/figures, Izzy and Villager DLC in Mario Kart, etc).

And don't forget all the bloody Animal Crodding costumes in Super Mario Maker. Even if they did coincide with Amiibo figures, half of them didn't need to be there.

Still no worse than the forced celebrity advertisement.

 

[wedl!!]

The advertisement in SMM is jarring but it's amusing.

Although it is kinda strange to think that we have an anime character in the game before, like, Takamaru.

 

[TheAnvil]

I admit the AC stuff had escaped my mind. Edited my post.

As for DK, as a character he will always be relevant; that's a given since he's Miyamoto's creation.

But DKC as a franchise is definitely getting less focus than FE.

Eh, not really. DK is constantly getting exposure through other ventures. Sure, he only had one DKC game this gen (two if you want to get technical and count the Returns port on 3DS), but he's constantly in other games. Even in the new Mini Mario & Friends game that released today. He was selected to be in Skylanders (along with Bowser).

As a franchise, DK more comfortably sits with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon than it does BELOW FE.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Swamp Sensei I know you wanted to know

From Famitsu

Star Fox zero bundle (Zero+Guard) sold 17.063k
Star Fox Zero (solo) it sold 8.175k

Is that Japan only? Because 20k is awful otherwise.

 

[ChikoLad]

Great, with this Mini Mario & Friends game, it means I have to go hunt down a Rosalina Amiibo and those things are damn expensive.

It's actually not too bad any more if you import, or even use eBay.

There also might be one still at my local Smyths...

I admit the AC stuff had escaped my mind. Edited my post.

As for DK, as a character he will always be relevant; that's a given since he's Miyamoto's creation.

But DKC as a franchise is definitely getting less focus than FE.

I wouldn't say that.

DKC games are just much more expensive games to make so naturally it doesn't see release as frequently. They don't really do "DK spin-offs" anymore since he doesn't really need them, as he can just double up with Mario for his spin-off appearances.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The advertisement in SMM is jarring but it's amusing.

Although it is kinda strange to think that we have an anime character in the game before, like, Takamaru.

Too bad we have both Shin Onigashima protagonists and Ayumi Tachibana over him.

We even have a character from a poorly received NES title like Volleyball.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Is that Japan only?

I believe so

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fire Emblem is the focus because Fates. Just/is about to come out.

DK was the focus when Tropical Freeze came out.

People, I don't think you're using your brains.

 

[TheAnvil]

Is that Japan only? Because 20k is awful otherwise.

Yeah Japan only. April 18-24, so it accounts for I think 3 days.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

The fact that we have real life bands, two Jam with the Band characters, Chitoge, and the Famitsu mascot over Takamaru still amazes me. This would have been a huge opportunity to get some extra Murasame Castle sales after Smash's release. I'll probably get the impression that Nintendo wants nothing to do with him anymore if he doesn't get a costume.

We even have a character from a poorly received NES title like Volleyball.

The only good thing about her is the twerking jokes to be honest. Other than that, I'm surprised Nintendo referenced such a terrible game.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I haven't gotten around to play more the Mini Mario & Friends game but it's pretty cool (I prefer the gameplay of Game Boy Donkey Kong and first Mario vs. Donkey Kong, though). Still baffled why isn't part of this game.

 

[Burruni]

You'd comfortably call Fire Emblem an a-tier, over Animal Crossing and Donkey Kong?

Animal Crossing is a very awkward series to judge, in my opinion, because of it being such a casual styled game.
Which isn't meant as some insult to it, but just that it's just something that pops up in its little bits.
Yes, in the past console gen we have 2 3DS games and a WiiU "game" and it being one of the biggest series to push amiibo stuff with the card packs.

DK? I consider it A tier but not as securely. That's personal opinion just because it's one that's... irregular, more spread out in its releases, and I think more of the legacy of the characters on a general knowledge level is because of association of Mario, not of the series itself. (Edit: And as Swamp noted, I think a fair bit of my felt amibiguity with it is just a matter of perspective with recency.)

Personal opinion.

I haven't gotten around to play more the Mini Mario & Friends game but it's pretty cool (I prefer the gameplay of Game Boy Donkey Kong and first Mario vs. Donkey Kong, though). Still baffled why isn't part of this game.

Because Nintendo doesn't want us to associate Wario with platforming anymore.
He's just that guy who runs microgames.

 

[FalKoopa]

Eh, not really. DK is constantly getting exposure through other ventures. Sure, he only had one DKC game this gen (two if you want to get technical and count the Returns port on 3DS), but he's constantly in other games. Even in the new Mini Mario & Friends game that released today. He was selected to be in Skylanders (along with Bowser).

As a franchise, DK more comfortably sits with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon than it does BELOW FE.

I wouldn't say that.

DKC games are just much more expensive games to make so naturally it doesn't see release as frequently. They don't really do "DK spin-offs" anymore since he doesn't really need them, as he can just double up with Mario for his spin-off appearances.

Fire Emblem has been pumping out games much more consistently than DK.

2 DS games, a Wii game, 2 3DS games, a Wii U spinoff (although quite a heavy budget one) and now a mobile game.

In that time period, DK had Jungle Climber, Returns, Returns 3D and Tropical Freeze.

And that's not even going into how much DK was shafted in Smash 4.

I'd honestly put DKC below FE. In my view, Nintendo is treating FE better. Although DK as a character is obviously more recognisable than any FE character, he's an icon.

I don't think DK's consistent presence in Mario spinoffs makes the DKC any relevant; he appeared without fail in the Mario spinoffs during the GC and early Wii, but it didn't mean much for DKC.

 

[ChikoLad]

Fire Emblem has been pumping out games much more consistently than DK.

2 DS games, a Wii game, 2 3DS games, a Wii U spinoff (although quite a heavy budget one) and now a mobile game.

In that time period, DK had Jungle Climber, Returns, Returns 3D and Tropical Freeze.

I'd honestly put DKC below FE. Although DK as a character is obviously more recognisable than any FE character, he's an icon.

I don't think DK's consistent presence in Mario spinoffs makes the DKC any relevant; he appeared without fail in the Mario spinoffs during the GC and early Wii, but it didn't much for DKC.

And that's because Fire Emblem games have small budgets.

The DK games require a bigger budget, especially the console and 3DS ones.

Also consider the sales and the fact that FE was ever in a "do or die" position, while DKC has never had that.

Also the Mario spin-offs specifically reference DKC a lot of the time when he shows up. There is a DKC race track in Mario Kart 7 & Mario Kart 8, and even the new amiibo game has the DK and Diddy Kong worlds themed specifically after DKC.

 

[TheAnvil]

Fire Emblem has been pumping out games much more consistently than DK.

2 DS games, a Wii game, 2 3DS games, a Wii U spinoff (although quite a heavy budget one) and now a mobile game.

In that time period, DK had Jungle Climber, Returns, Returns 3D and TF.

I'd honestly put DKC below FE. Although DK as a character is obviously more recognisable than any FE character, he's an icon.

I don't think DK's consistent presence in Mario spinoffs makes the DKC any relevant; he appeared without fail in the Mario spinoffs during the GC and early Wii, but it didn't much for DKC.

OK, so I'll go by your logic on this then. If you want to go back as far as the DS era, DK has had 2 Wii games, 1 Wii U game, 1 Wii U/3DS game, 2 3DS games, 4 DS games and 1 arcade game. Last I checked, 10 is a greater number than 7.

So I'm disincluding the major appearances the series has made in dozens of other games, including Skylanders in which he basically headlined alongside Bowser.

Donkey Kong Country has multiple strong brands under its belt. Not just the Country games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I was about to say, DK takes a lot longer to make than Fire Emblem does.

The comparisons aren't fair and if you think Fire Emblem is bigger than DK and Animal Crossing than youre delusional.

We want from "major IP" to one of their biggest for some reason.

Remember, Pikmin is considered a major IP.

It doesn't work that way.

 

[Deleted member]

Fire Emblem is the focus because Fates. Just/is about to come out.

DK was the focus when Tropical Freeze came out.

People, I don't think you're using your brains.

Well... Here's the thing, we're talking focus/attention here. In smash alone Fates has more content than Tropical Freeze despite it coming years after Smash.

And while Donkey Kong is more well known to the general public, Fire Emblem as of recently has generated a ton more buzz than DK, and controversey definitely helps. Cha-ching.

 

[Opossum]

My whole thing reads more like this (personal opinions incoming) :

S Tier:
A Tier: , plus .

Left out Splatoon for being a one-off so far, but it most likely will be up there soon. Metroid could feasibly climb back up with a new release that isn't Federation Force, while Star Fox could maybe move up if sales of Zero are good enough.

One day, Punch-Out!!...
One day you'll be back to your former glory.






And meanwhile 's sitting in Z-Tier.

 

[FalKoopa]

And that's because Fire Emblem games have small budgets.

The DK games require a bigger budget, especially the console and 3DS ones.

Also consider the sales and the fact that FE was ever in a "do or die" position, while DKC has never had that.

Also the Mario spin-offs specifically reference DKC a lot of the time when he shows up. There is a DKC race track in Mario Kart 7 & Mario Kart 8, and even the new amiibo game has the DK and Diddy Kong worlds themed specifically after DKC.

I think you're giving those references a bit too much weight.
Proper releases like FE Fates or Tropical Freeze do much more to put their respective series in the public spotlight than references like the ones you mentioned.

OK, so I'll go by your logic on this then. If you want to go back as far as the DS era, DK has had 2 Wii games, 1 Wii U game, 1 Wii U/3DS game, 2 3DS games, 4 DS games and 1 arcade game. Last I checked, 10 is a greater number than 7.

So I'm disincluding the major appearances the series has made in dozens of other games, including Skylanders in which he basically headlined alongside Bowser.

Donkey Kong Country has multiple strong brands under its belt. Not just the Country games.

Which games are you referring to?
I forgot about Barrel Blast, yeah, but what else? Are you including Mario vs. DK as well?

 

[TheAnvil]

I was about to say, DK takes a lot longer to make than Fire Emblem does.

The comparisons aren't fair and if you think Fire Emblem is bigger than DK and Animal Crossing than youre delusional.

We want from "major IP" to one of their biggest for some reason.

Remember, Pikmin is considered a major IP.

It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, Pikmin is a major IP which is kind of funny to really digest if you think about.

If I was to fairly break the noteable ones down, I'd go:

A:Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, DK, AC.

B:Kirby.

C:Nintendogs, Splatoon, Star Fox, Metroid, Fire Emblem.

Dikmin, Kid Icarus.

Mario and Pokemon are kind of in a league of their own, but it didn't seem fair to not consider Zelda, DK and AC as A-tier to me. Kirby kind of floats somewhere below the Mario lot, but above the Metroid lot. Fire Emblem is kind of in between C and D, but closer to C.

 

[ChikoLad]

I think you're giving those references a bit too much weight.
Proper releases like FE Fates or Tropical Freeze do much more to put their respective series in the public spotlight than references like the ones you mentioned.


Which games are to referring to?
I forgot about Barrel Blast, yeah, but what else? Are you including Mario vs. DK as well?

Not when it's Mario Kart you're showing up in, and a free game anyone can download.

Like I said, the difference between FE and DKC is that FE was flat out on the chopping block (more than half of the FE releases you listed caused this because of how poorly they sold), while DKC has never been in such a position, not even close.

Fire Emblem had loads of frequent releases because it's such an easy game to make. Low budget SRPGs are inherently a much easier genre to develop for than a big budget platformer.

The frequency of game releases has little bearing on how high in priority a franchise is.

--------------

To add my two cents:

S tier:
A tier:
B tier:
C tier:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well... Here's the thing, we're talking focus/attention here. In smash alone Fates has more content than Tropical Freeze despite it coming years after Smash.

And while Donkey Kong is more well known to the general public, Fire Emblem as of recently has generated a ton more buzz than DK, and controversey definitely helps. Cha-ching.

Unfair comparison.

Tropical Freeze came out during production but after planning. It couldn't get much content.

Or is Fates bigger than 3D World, ORAS and Hyrule Warriors?

 

[---]

Arguing franchise tiers? I thought I taught you all better than that with my bottom barrel story.

And meanwhile 's sitting in Z-Tier.

F-Zero is obviously B-Tier for Boost Power. How dare you spread "misinformation."

 

[TheAnvil]

I think you're giving those references a bit too much weight.
Proper releases like FE Fates or Tropical Freeze do much more to put their respective series in the public spotlight than references like the ones you mentioned.


Which games are you referring to?
I forgot about Barrel Blast, yeah, but what else? Are you including Mario vs. DK as well?

Yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the Mario vs. DK games in this. They afterall rely on both Mario and DK branding to sell them, just as the FE x SMT game relies on those brands to sell that.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah, Pikmin is a major IP which is kind of funny to really digest if you think about.

If I was to fairly break the noteable ones down, I'd go:

A:Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, DK, AC.

B:Kirby.

C:Nintendogs, Splatoon, Star Fox, Metroid, Fire Emblem.

Dikmin, Kid Icarus.

Mario and Pokemon are kind of in a league of their own, but it didn't seem fair to not consider Zelda, DK and AC as A-tier to me. Kirby kind of floats somewhere below the Mario lot, but above the Metroid lot. Fire Emblem is kind of in between C and D, but closer to C.

Whoa whoa whoa.

Pikmin is being seriously undersold if you're putting it on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo adds the Pikmin to everything with marketing. The shorts, various promotional stuff, plushies, how much attention the games get...like, yeah, there was that incredibly large gap due to Pikmin 3's development hell, but that's in no way on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo at least still uses Olimar, Alph, and of course the Pikmin, in other things.

 

[TheAnvil]

Whoa whoa whoa.

Pikmin is being seriously undersold if you're putting it on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo adds the Pikmin to everything with marketing. The shorts, various promotional stuff, plushies, how much attention the games get...like, yeah, there was that incredibly large gap due to Pikmin 3's development hell, but that's in no way on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo at least still uses Olimar, Alph, and of course the Pikmin, in other things.

I dunno, Pikmin sort of just floats in the background a bit. I don't feel like it gets as much focus as like Star Fox or Metroid, even when it has a large game coming out. Pikmin never got anything like Star Fox Zero got last E3. Pikmin's above KI, but on the same tier in the way that Mario is above Animal Crossing, but still in the same tier.

 

[ChikoLad]

Whoa whoa whoa.

Pikmin is being seriously undersold if you're putting it on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo adds the Pikmin to everything with marketing. The shorts, various promotional stuff, plushies, how much attention the games get...like, yeah, there was that incredibly large gap due to Pikmin 3's development hell, but that's in no way on par with Kid Icarus. Nintendo at least still uses Olimar, Alph, and of course the Pikmin, in other things.

The Pikmin are literally used for the 3DS transfer process when you are transferring data from one 3DS to another (like you would if you upgraded to the New 3DS).

It's also Miyamoto's real baby franchise.

 

[FalKoopa]

Not when it's Mario Kart you're showing up in, and a free game anyone can download.

Like I said, the difference between FE and DKC is that FE was flat out on the chopping block (more than half of the FE releases you listed caused this because of how poorly they sold), while DKC has never been in such a position, not even close.

Fire Emblem had loads of frequent releases because it's such an easy game to make. Low budget SRPGs are inherently a much easier genre to develop for than a big budget platformer.

The frequency of game releases has little bearing on how high in priority a franchise is.

I get that, but let's be honest, Fire Emblem has been in the public eye a lot after Awakening turned the franchise around. Tropical Freeze is a great game no doubt, but I'm pretty sure both Awakening and Fates have outstripped it in sales.

I don't think the fact the FE was on the chopping block a few years ago is relevant any more now.

Yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the Mario vs. DK games in this. They afterall rely on both Mario and DK branding to sell them, just as the FE x SMT game relies on those brands to sell that.

Well, if you count them that way, then I suppose. Tbh, despite the title those games are 80% Mario and 20% DK; I'd class them as Mario spinoffs in the same vein as Mario Kart or Mario Party.

 

[Ura]

Real talk. I'm glad FE got to be a major IP instead of Advance Wars. **** that game. It's more strategy based so every turn matters, which isn't bad. What is bad is how many times they spamm the **** out of Fog of War. It's not strategy when you're only victory condition is capturing the base, you only have 2 human units, can't make more and are stuck in fog of war. It's not strategy but luck, you HAVE to know where everything is beforehand to stand a chance. **** that

How the hell is that a bad thing? Your explanation of the series is hardly true and there's so much depth to the series. Capturing the base isn't the only victory condition in the game (and isn't even a victory condition in the first place). You don't only have 2 human units. You're not always stuck in Fog of War and you just need to know how to play that mode properly. Even then Fog of War isn't applicable to every match because a lot of times there is no FoW. Both FE and AW have their pro's and con's in terms of their gameplay really and there's so much more to what you're saying. This is coming from a guy that's been playing the series for the past 12 years and still loving it.

It's okay if you don't like AW but don't say nonsensical things like that.

Except in AW, every step matters, and in FE, your units don't get weaker after taking damage. FoW is unfair in both, but it's ludicrous in AW as not only was it advertised as a strategy game, but in those stages my units were finite unlike other levels

Like I said in the above there's a lot of depth in FoW. Whether you're baiting out your opponent to attack with long-range units or seeking them by hiding your units in the woods to ambush your opponents by surprise theirs a lot of depth in the mode. It isn't unfair unless you're up against a CPU in which you just have to move with caution to not get attacked in the game.

 

[TheAnvil]

I get that, but let's be honest, Fire Emblem has been in the public eye a lot after Awakening turned the franchise around. Tropical Freeze is a great game no doubt, but I'm pretty sure both Awakening and Fates have outstripped it in sales.

I don't think the fact the FE was on the chopping block a few years ago is relevant any more now.


Well, if you count them that way, then I suppose. Tbh, despite the title those games are 80% Mario and 20% DK; I'd class them as Mario spinoffs in the same vein as Mario Kart or Mario Party.

I know Mario's on screen more an DK is, but the branding is still Mario vs. DK. Mario in itself is a DK spinoff if you really think about it though!

 

[ChikoLad]

I get that, but let's be honest, Fire Emblem has been in the public eye a lot after Awakening turned the franchise around. Tropical Freeze is a great game no doubt, but I'm pretty sure both Awakening and Fates have outstripped it in sales.

I don't think the fact the FE was on the chopping block a few years ago is relevant any more now.


Well, if you count them that way, then I suppose. Tbh, despite the title those games are 80% Mario and 20% DK; I'd class them as Mario spinoffs in the same vein as Mario Kart or Mario Party.

Has it though?

It had Awakening, then Smash stuff (which isn't even as big as people like to believe), and now Fates. That's not much. And it's mostly still core Nintendo fans who know of it.

Fates has had a huge marketing push and has sold well, but remember, Fates is TECHNICALLY 3 games.

 

[Opossum]

I dunno, Pikmin sort of just floats in the background a bit. I don't feel like it gets as much focus as like Star Fox or Metroid, even when it has a large game coming out. Pikmin never got anything like Star Fox Zero got last E3. Pikmin's above KI, but on the same tier in the way that Mario is above Animal Crossing, but still in the same tier.

But that's the thing...Pikmin>Kid Icarus is in no way comparable to Mario>Animal Crossing. Not only in the sense that I think Pikmin does get pushed more than Star Fox or Metroid (Pikmin 3 got a ton of push from Nintendo to the point that some people were sick of hearing about it), but also in the sense that Pikmin is far less obscure than Kid Icarus.

Uprising and Smash doesn't change the fact that, as a franchise, Kid Icarus is still hella obscure and not mainstream in the slightest.