Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Swamp Sensei]

Who wants to talk about characters pulling 180s?

Here's one of my favorites.

That outfit is so 80s. LMAO.

Still, gotta remember that in Japan, there's a huge sense of normality. Being normal is something to strive for.

So... Normal girl makes sense there.

 

[ChikoLad]

So on the topic of gay characters in media, which I know, I'm slow to as usual, I'm fine with either portrayal. I'm fine with it being subtle or as noticeable and flamboyant as a rainbow.

The subtle types are the most common though, definitely. Heck, closet ones are probably the most common, by far. I've never had a guy who's been in love with me that's openly gay besides my current boyfriend, of course.(Even then he can't IRL because, well, being in the middle of the swamps of Louisiana by two fundamentalists.) All of them identified as straight to everyone else.

But on the other hand, the very open ones do exist. Such as I.

Well when I said "a focus of the character", I don't mean "they're super flamboyant and talk like thiiiissssssssss". Hell, I don't even consider that on it's own to be actually addressing homosexuality as a theme.

You guys are reading what I say and twisting it into a black and white, extreme sense.

My initial point was that when it's a kid show, if you are gonna have gay characters at all, use them to convey a message.

Having characters that are gay for no reason in a kids show doesn't work because they aren't making an impact. They may as well not be gay and not progress is made, because kids understand nothing new.

However, if you make it a legitimate theme and convey the struggles of being gay, and then end that struggle in a positive way, you have a much more impactful and successful situation.

For example, let's pretend you have a show set in high school or whatever. You want to have one of the teenagers among the main cast be gay, because you want to positively represent that character trait.

You could, for example:

A) Have it be randomly brought up once or twice with no real focus.
B) Have the character be the stereotypical, flamboyant gay and constantly use them for jokes.
C) Have it not even be apparent that they are gay for a while, but in the middle of the series, start a short arc where they come out as gay, go through some struggles regarding that (such as bullying, anxiety, etc), get support from their friends and family, and in the end, are able to comfortably keep going with their sexuality and it makes no difference to the time they spend with their friends. Maybe they even find someone else who is the same as them. Or they simply resolve to knuckle down on their studies and not worry about finding a lover until they finish school.

Option A just means kids will not even notice and so they learn nothing.
Option B just means kids might not take gay people seriously and might lead to more bigotry from our youth.
Option C means kids should be able to empathise with the idea of being gay and what that can mean for someone, since they just saw a character they previously loved regardless of their sexuality, go through this struggle with it, and come out on top.

This really goes for anything, not just the issue of homosexuality. It's the same if you wanted to, for example, introduce a character with deceased loved ones, in a kids show.

There is also Option D, which is basically Option C, except the entire show instead of just an arc within a show. That can work too and create a very meaningful narrative, but can also alienate kids if it's the selling point since they may not get it.

 

[Deleted member]

Ummm, okay, I was saying in general, wasn't replying to anyone.. In fact I forgot we were talking inside the context of a children's TV show.

And there are many ways of being flamboyant, not just talking like thiissssssss and other stereotypical things. Though now that I think about it, there aren't that many of us. Hmmm...

 

[Burruni]

That outfit is so 80s. LMAO.

Still, gotta remember that in Japan, there's a huge sense of normality. Being normal is something to strive for.

So... Normal girl makes sense there.

A) She's Chinese so that cultural point CLEARLY has no relevance you racist
B) It's still a massive change in the span of a cg image change. That is friggin Samus isn't a robot dissonance of what you know the character as to what you're seeing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A) She's Chinese so that cultural point CLEARLY has no relevance you racist

It's written by Japanese writers.

Their culture is "CLEARLY" more relevant than you think.

Don't assume nasty things like that.

B) It's still a massive change in the span of a cg image change. That is friggin Samus isn't a robot dissonance of what you know the character as to what you're seeing.

Of course it is. Never denied that.

I was trying to explain why it happened.

 

[ChikoLad]

Who wants to talk about characters pulling 180s?

Here's one of my favorites.

has done a number of 180s

From what we've seen chronologically:

>Started out as a seemingly normal enough, curious, and whimsical little girl
>Turned out to be an orphan who had suppressed the memory of her family's passing, having multiple ominous dreams until eventually breaking down into an outward depression
>Went on to become best mom herself as well as the Cosmic Spirit, and Miss "guards the cosmos against any and all threats".
>She's mostly reserved, modest, and quiet, but...

...sometimes pulls stuff like that.

 

[Burruni]

It's written by Japanese writers.

Their culture is "CLEARLY" more relevant than you think.

Don't assume nasty things like that.


Of course it is. Never denied that.

I was trying to explain why it happened.

Swamp sorry that it came across well, I meant it as a joke and tried to use enough tools of the internet to convey it.

Unrelated; heading off for the night. Just wanted to let out an apology for poorly executed humor.

 

[Champ Gold]

If I hear one more person say that Kanji is gay, I'm gonna punch him

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If I hear one more person say that Kanji is gay, I'm gonna punch him

He's curious, but his sexuality is the least of the issues he faces.

 

[Champ Gold]

He's curious, but his sexuality is the least of the issues he faces.

He ain't even curious, it's just that when Naoto was 'interested' in him during the early part of the game, he was surprised and sort of happy that someone acknowledged him. The guy got bullied by boys and girls as a kid for liking much more domestic/feminine things but it wasn't like he was gay. Or did people forget the nosebleed he got from seeing Chie and Yukiko in their swimsuits and his interest in Naoto heighten right when he found out he was a girl. Now there might be some lining there that might show he was at one point but that's due to doubts

It's like no one reads his social links like how FE fans say a character sucks and does none of their support logs.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

He ain't even curious, it's just that when Naoto was 'interested' in him during the early part of the game, he was surprised and sort of happy that someone acknowledged him. The guy got bullied by boys and girls as a kid for liking much more domestic/feminine things but it wasn't like he was gay. Or did people forget the nosebleed he got from seeing Chie and Yukiko in their swimsuits and his interest in Naoto heighten right when he found out he was a girl. Now there might be some lining there that might show he was at one point but that's due to doubts

It's like no one reads his social links like how FE fans say a character sucks and does none of their support logs.

Well, its what I heard.

I haven't actually played it so that explains everything.

 

[Deleted member]

he had far more pressing things going on for years upon years to the point where he has no interest in sexual relations

That's not how asexuality works

he's a sterile old man

That's still not how it works
Asexuality is just like any other sexuality
It should not be confused with lack of sexual attraction due to castration, trauma or lack of interest(as is the case with Dumbledore, as you mentioned)
Even if he has no interest, he can still feel attraction, which asexual people don't do(sexually speaking)

 

[Champ Gold]

Well, its what I heard.

I haven't actually played it so that explains everything.

I guess I should let you go on that regard.

However you should play the game it's fun. Also very humorous

 

[ChikoLad]

That's not how asexuality works

That's still not how it works
Asexuality is just like any other sexuality
It should not be confused with lack of sexual attraction due to castration, trauma or lack of interest(as is the case with Dumbledore, as you mentioned)
Even if he has no interest, he can still feel attraction, which asexual people don't do(sexually speaking)

But if you wanted to imply a character is gay, you wouldn't make their sexuality 100% irrelevant to the narrative and have them never even bring it up within the narrative itself.

Which was why I would have assumed he was asexual. Yes, I wasn't given a concrete reason to think he was, but I was given more reason to think he was asexual than to think he was gay.

Like, if you're dealing with a character who doesn't display any hint of their sexual interests AT ALL, it's logical to think the lack of interest is due to lack of attraction.

Which is why, again, J.K Rowling simply saying it outside of the book itself, is bad. Instead of immersively writing the fact into the books, she just said he was in an interview, which takes me out of the experience.

Then again Harry Potter kinda got **** for me half way through the series so I don't care too much. However, this is Writing 101.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's a Courage the Cowardly Dog episode called the Mask iirc, and it had 2 mature themes. Abusive relationships, which was why the masked cat lady hated courage, and lesbians, as the two female characters who debuted in that episode were implied to live a happy life together. Kids see that and learn that same sex can be a happy ending. The reason people asked was because people were curious if they were right

It has been quite a long time since I've watched that episode, but I thought that the cat and rabbit were just friends and nothing more.

 

[Deleted member]

But if you wanted to imply a character is gay, you wouldn't make their sexuality 100% irrelevant to the narrative and have them never even bring it up within the narrative itself.

Why should it be relevant in the first place? A character's sexuality is only ever relevant if their sexuality has any bearing on the plot(relationships, interest, past, etc), Dumbledore's sexuality would not have altered the plot in any way and thus it is completely irrelevant and thus an unnecessary mention

Which was why I would have assumed he was asexual. Yes, I wasn't given a concrete reason to think he was, but I was given more reason to think he was asexual than to think he was gay.

No, you were not given more reason to believe he's asexual
Just because someone never engaged in a relationship, doesn't mean they're asexual
Sexuality represents interest and attraction, not historic of relationships
A bisexual person doesn't need to have dated one person of each gender to be considered so, as Dumbledore doesn't need to have dated a man to be considered homosexual
Otherwise we'd have a ton of characters in fiction that are asexuals

Like, if you're dealing with a character who doesn't display any hint of their sexual interests AT ALL, it's logical to think the lack of interest is due to lack of attraction.

Related to the first two parts, no need to write it again

Which is why, again, J.K Rowling simply saying it outside of the book itself, is bad. Instead of immersively writing the fact into the books, she just said he was in an interview, which takes me out of the experience.

YOU consider it bad writing, it's not an objective fact
This is subjective and thus irrelevant

Then again Harry Potter kinda got **** for me half way through the series so I don't care too much. However, this is Writing 101.

Again, subjective and irrelevant
I may care little about HP too, but that does not concern this discussion

 

[ChikoLad]

Why should it be relevant in the first place? A character's sexuality is only ever relevant if their sexuality has any bearing on the plot(relationships, interest, past, etc), Dumbledore's sexuality would not have altered the plot in any way and thus it is completely irrelevant and thus an unnecessary mention

No, you were not given more reason to believe he's asexual
Just because someone never engaged in a relationship, doesn't mean they're asexual
Sexuality represents interest and attraction, not historic of relationships
A bisexual person doesn't need to have dated one person of each gender to be considered so, as Dumbledore doesn't need to have dated a man to be considered homosexual
Otherwise we'd have a ton of characters in fiction that are asexuals

Related to the first two parts, no need to write it again

YOU consider it bad writing, it's not an objective fact
This is subjective and thus irrelevant

Again, subjective and irrelevant
I may care little about HP too, but that does not concern this discussion

I also ask why Dumbledore's sexuality is relevant. It's why I'm saying it's dumb of Rowling to bring it up in interviews. She didn't make it relevant in the story, so why make it relevant after it's finished?

Yes, I was given more reason to believe he's asexual. Again, it's not concrete, but if you write a character in a way that never even brings up any sexual attraction, then the reader has more reason to believe they are asexual than anything else. Keeping in mind that asexuality is defined by a lack of attraction. If I see no on-screen attraction, then I have seen a lack of attraction. That's just common sense.

No, bad writing is not subjective. Nothing "bad" or "good" is subjective when talking about quality (like the quality of writing). It's objectively bad writing to not bring up something at all in a narrative, and later claim out of universe that "it is the case".

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

It's always funny when society thinks someone is courageous or edgy for expressing support for interrracial marriage and or same-sex marriage.

Congrats, you have an opinion that is politically correct to have and that the establishment and most of society supports. What an edgelord you are.

----

 

[Z25]

Speaking of which I hope the courage reboot does well. That was a good show!

 

[Substitution]

Rebellious Treecko
You know... I've been needing to ask:

Where doea "----" come from? I've always wondered what are the whereabouts of its origins.

 

[Deleted member]

It's always funny when someone thinks they're courageous or edgy for expressing support for interrracial marriage and or same-sex marriage.

Congrats, you have an opinion that is politically correct to have and that the establishment and most of society supports. What an edgelord you are.

----

It all depends on when and where you express that belief, really. When you're stating it on the internet, then yeah, pretty much. But for other situations.... Perhaps not so much.

It all depends on the occasion.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm less talking political or ethical views here, and more just flat out talking about what's good writing and what isn't it, regardless of political correctness.

Like literally everything I've said can be applied to anything else brought up in a narrative.

 

[AreJay25]

Speaking of which I hope the courage reboot does well. That was a good show!

Wait what? That's a thing?

I remember a fake trailer a couple of years ago, but that's it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm less talking political or ethical views here, and more just flat out talking about what's good writing and what isn't it, regardless of political correctness.

Like literally everything I've said can be applied to anything else brought up in a narrative.

Writing doesn't exist in a vacuum though.

The politics and ethics of the culture regularly effect what good writing is.

 

[ChikoLad]

Wait what? That's a thing?

I remember a fake trailer a couple of years ago, but that's it.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=839081

There's a link to the footage of the pilot episode in this thread.

It's a CGI reboot.

Writing doesn't exist in a vacuum though.

The politics and ethics of the culture regularly effect what good writing is.

I mean yes, but that doesn't make a difference in this particular case.

Ethics and culture don't change the fact that you should at least establish character traits in-universe, even in a minor way, rather than only ever mentioning them out of universe. Because that breaks immersion if you have to establish them out of universe.

 

[Z25]

Wait what? That's a thing?

I remember a fake trailer a couple of years ago, but that's it.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=839081

There's a link to the footage of the pilot episode in this thread.

It's a CGI reboot.



I mean yes, but that doesn't make a difference in this particular case.

Ethics and culture don't change the fact that you should at least establish character traits in-universe, even in a minor way, rather than only ever mentioning them out of universe. Because that breaks immersion if you have to establish them out of universe.

'd but yes! It looks like it could be nice, so I hope it ends up doing well!

 

[AreJay25]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=839081

There's a link to the footage of the pilot episode in this thread.

It's a CGI reboot.

Don't know how I'm only hearing about this now...

Wish it was traditional 2D instead of CGI, but hey, more Courage is a good thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Hello everyone. I'm sorry for interrupting the conversation. I found this out on NeoGAF.

Spoiler

Star Fox Zero features a homage to Iwata in the game's credits. As shown in the video, it says "This game is dedicated to our wingman who fell in battle." This is simply perfect.

 

[Deleted member]

I find it funny how many people say a character's sexuality doesn't matter.... And then several pages later, here we are still arguing about it.

Anyway, on the topic of dumbledore this time.... I don't understand why a trait of his small to the context of the story and plot being told outside of the story is bad writing. Heck, not to say that interests in gender can't matter, it all depends on what's going on. Or just, dare I say, a primary trait of the character.

I see where you're coming from, but really, the fact is that the dumbledore being gay wasn't that important to his character.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It doesn't matter if they establish a trait in-universe or not. That's still objectively what it is. It just means it wasn't relevant to the story itself. The author has every right to drop random facts about his/her characters as they want. It's theirs. It's not bad writing whatsoever because again, if it isn't relevant, why bring it up in-universe. And who cares if they decide to give more information about the character. It's no less true. In addition, many series/franchises/etc. have guidebooks that tell about the characters that never get brought up in the show/etc. I have a Transformers Armada guide. A lot of it is never shown in-universe. There's not always a good reason to mention it. It's good writing to not bother talking irrelevant stuff. Dumbledore is gay. Big deal. Unless they were to show him purposely fending off women and men, then assuming he was asexual is just creating fanon. If they never show any hints towards a relationship in any way(if he doesn't reject anyone as well), then the sexuality is not relevant in any way whatsoever. It's bad to assume stuff(I can understand guessing he's asexual, but assuming it? Really? With zero hints to his sexuality?) as well.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Armor Skeptic just did a video on Zootopia because Laci Green talked about it

and I want to see the movie even more now

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm less talking political or ethical views here, and more just flat out talking about what's good writing and what isn't it

You say this but forget a MAJOR rule in writing...Show, don't tell. This means don't outright say something, but leave enough subtle hints about it for the reader/watcher/player to figure it out themselves, Outside of Ridley, Other M constantly told what was happening to the player without showing anything, which is one of the reasons it's universally considered pisspoor writing

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

It pissed me off in other M running through the lava zone taking damage

I could just imagine Adam having this grin on his face as he watches Samus taking damage.

Than at the end he was like "Oh, you're at that hot place. Don't you like, have a suit that protects you from heat? You might wanna turn that on. Sorry, too busy watching Samurai Pizza Cats on the other screen"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm not sure how to have the lava run gameplay section justified actually.

The idea is great from a gameplay perspective, but how does one excuse it via plot?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm not sure how to have the lava run gameplay section justified actually.

The idea is great from a gameplay perspective, but how does one excuse it via plot?

They should have done what fusion did

Have her have to activate her powers from some kind of station, and the varia suit station just happened to be after that lava section

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not sure how to have the lava run gameplay section justified actually.

The idea is great from a gameplay perspective, but how does one excuse it via plot?

Make it so that Adam didn't want Samus to go in there in the first place, but because Samus wants to investigate, she goes anyway, and it's Adam's attempt to keep her away from the area.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They should have done what fusion did

Have her have to activate her powers from some kind of station, and the varia suit station just happened to be after that lava section

That gets rid of the authorization system though and on paper the system is fine.

Make it so that Adam didn't want Samus to go in there in the first place, but because Samus wants to investigate, she goes anyway, and it's Adam's attempt to keep her away from the area.

But if Samus is rebelling in the first place, why wouldn't she use the Varia Suit?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The communication could go down and adam could show concern when it comes back on

and immediately tell her to turn the varia suit on

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That gets rid of the authorization system though and on paper the system is fine.


But if Samus is rebelling in the first place, why wouldn't she use the Varia Suit?

Either Samus didn't plan on staying for long, or rewrite how the authorization system works, Adam doesn't entirely trust Samus s he puts something on her Power Suit that makes it Samus can't activate anything on her own,with Samus' consent as she still trusts him

 

[MainJPW]

....
Doesn't Deadpool count as a mutant?

Yes. But he isn't an X-man

Late response but he actually isn't.

Deadpool is a mutate, like Spidey or Hulk- Mutate is a term used to refer to superhumans who acquired their superpowers by exposure to some mutagenic compound or energy (either accidentally or deliberately). Unlike Marvel's Mutants, Marvel's Mutates require external stimuli to acquire their powers.

Funnily the X-Men usually had to remind him that he isn't a mutant, which is why he isn't a member in the first place.

His daughter is a mutant though. We don't know what her power is yet.