Survivor: Gabon - featuring Melee champion Ken

[pastaboy]

ken is waaay more stronger then matty, he like, climed an mountain.

 

[St. Viers]

^^ that's mean =P

 

[metalmonstar]

Okay so here is how it all goes.

Bob has in his pocket, Marcus, Corinne, and Charlie no matter who he goes against. That is three right there that is a steep lead. Randy is iffy. If you watched tribal you will see Randy shake his head when they mention the fake idol. Bob kind of makes an odd face. Sugar laughs. Bob doesn't have Randy's vote against Ken or Matty.

Bob will vote based on who played well. He is not going to go on who he likes and grudges. He is a good, smart, and realistic player. He understands the game and the drive to win and thus will choose the most deserving.

Ken has Crystal no matter what. If Bob goes out then he may have Bob and Corinne's vote locked. With Marcus and Charlie being people he will have to convince he was a better player too. Charlie has a slight thing against Kenny but I doubt that will be a real issue. So Ken could win under the right circumstances. It will be close if he goes against Matty. He played a better strategic game then Matty so that could push him over the edge. Versus Sugar and Susie it is an easy win.

Ken's vote will most likely go to the best player. Bob in this scenario or he will just dump his vote to Susie because he deems no one worthy.

Susie's best chance was with Crystal and Sugar but that is gone now. Her other chance is to hope that Bob, Sugar, Matty and Ken have all made enough enemies that the jury will be forced to dump their vote on her in order to avoid voting for their enemy. Luckily for Susie every single player has done a good job of that.

Crystal will not vote for Sugar or Matty. Bob or Ken will get her vote.

Corinne stated that in no way will she give the money to Sugar. I am willing to bet that Corinne would have cried tears of joy had Sugar been voted off. Maybe they were hoping for her to get blindsided. The onions don't like Crystal either so her going was good news to them. It in no way means they suddenly like Sugar.

Randy also will not vote Sugar. It also seems likely that Marcus and Charlie will follow suit much like they have for the cold shoulder Ponderosa. So Sugar has very little chance to win.

Sugar's votes will be either from Bob or Matty. However it looks like she will keep those two in the game. Which means she gets no votes. Don't forget all of the Kota members have stated that Sugar has gotten the "golden edit."

Sugar will most likely vote Bob or Matty. Kenny could still win a jury vote from her. Especially if he talks about what he plans to do with his winning. I think that will choke Sugar up and cause her to flip again. Too bad there is no way she will ever go to Ponderosa.

Susie will put her vote towards Matty most likely. If Matty isn't there then it will go to Ken. I have this feeling that Susie and Sugar just never made a connection.

Matty's vote will most likely go to Susie. She was his only true ally through it all. So I am pretty sure he will still remain loyal to her. Sugar and Bob might get the vote if they are persuasive. Kenny is a long shot but could still get it if the right people are there.


Now lets anaylze speeches.

Bob will have the best. It will be clean, polished, he will mention his strategic moves along with an old man winning 4 challenges in a row. Bob will lock down more votes.

Ken, Ken can go either way. If he reevaluates himself, admits to his mistakes and then mentions his honest good plays then he can earn more votes and possibly get what he needs to beat even Matty.

On the other hand Ken could be arrogant and lose votes.

Sugar's speech will flat out suck. She will talk about how good people should win and how she is a good person. Kota will then laugh and vote someone else. You need those four votes. Sorry Sugar.

I have a hard time imagining what Matty will say. He just hasn't done anything. He has ridden the five person alliance got some good breaks and flips for him. Otherwise he is played very little game at all. In fact he hasn't done too well in challenges either. He reminds me a bit of Danny. I don't see him really gaining or losing votes though based on his speech.

Susie can only go up. I can't imagine what she would say either. Much like her biggest ally she is just kind of been there. One could say she has ridden coattails to get where she is. Maybe she will talk about this or something.



So just to recap
Bob has the best chances with a good amount of the jury being able to beat out everyone and being the best at challenges to make it to the finals.

Matty has the second best chance however that means getting rid of Bob and actually winning immunity.

Ken is in a tight spot but then again at Tribal he actually has a real shot at winning.

Susie, There is no reason to get rid of her and she may just get votes dumped on her. It is still a long shot but stranger things have happened. GO SUSIE.

Sugar, Randy and Corrinne have made it clear that Sugar won't get the money over their dead bodies. If Corrinne has a much power as she think she does and has displayed at ponderosa, then Sugar just kissed four votes goodbye. Not to mention that most likely she will end up with better players. Her chances are slim to none. I think Susie gets more votes than Sugar at Jury.

 

[manacloud1]

if you havent voted for ken yet you have till 3 pm sunday so keep voting !!!

 

[infomon]

^^ mana gets some $ from da winnings I hope

hav fun at the live event!!!! I voted 10timez...... good luck "Kenny"!!! (even tho it's already done lol)

10votes

 

[wazgood]

voted susie.

 

[5ive]

voted susie.

Failed to do your duty as a Smash Member.

Infraction lulz.

 

[blaaa]

"Kenny's sad "poor me" performance was so understated, so restrained that it almost warrants a spot at the final tribal council." "Awesome. Kenny is setting himself up for a major *** whuppin'...or a million dollars. I love this kid. Love him." "Sugar is a factor in this game. The sweet little pin-up model is very close to crying her way into the final. Who would ever think she would still be here this long? Not me. Never. How does it happen season after season? She wasn't even picked when they ranked their tribes. She wasn't picked! Then again, Bob was picked very late, so maybe all it means is that Marcus isn't as brilliant as he claims!! Ah-ha!!"

"Matty is a favorite. Has been from day one. I'm so happy he's still in the game. I just like how he wears his heart on his sleeve. Can he win? Yes. Can he make it to the end? Very difficult. He's an obvious target.

Bob is another favorite of mine. Again, from day one. I like his straight-ahead approach, and I have a huge soft spot for Maine. Can he win? Yes. Can he get to the end? It's gonna be tough. He will probably have to win his way there through immunity challenges, otherwise I think they'll take him out. He has too many former tribemates on the jury."

"Kenny - I cannot believe Kenny is still in this game. I would have lost my house betting against him making it this far. He has an uphill battle if he's going to win because he has made a ton of enemies. But if he gets to the final with the right person or people, it could happen. Kenny could win this game."

from:http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2008/12/jeff-probst-b-1.html

 

[metalmonstar]

The best part about Jeff's blog is when he goes off on all the people who have complained about this season's final three decision, the twist, casting choice, and editing.

 

[Conclusively]

voted susie.

-pushes you into 500 MKs spamming tornado-

vote ken or else.

 

[kr3wman]

voted susie.

Lol Ima make a silly post everyone will notice me hahahahaha i'm so special

 

[toasty]

^lolll <3 kr3w

 

[Shake~]

Man the site's being stupid. It's saying that my email doesn't match the username, but it clearly does and I made sure. Guess I won't get to vote ;\

 

[kr3wman]

Man the site's being stupid. It's saying that my email doesn't match the username, but it clearly does and I made sure. Guess I won't get to vote ;\

just do the 'send the password recovery' thingie, and it should work.

 

[Shake~]

just do the 'send the password recovery' thingie, and it should work.

I tried that twice, no dice sadly. I'm not sure why it's doing it, it even puts my email in there at first. Maybe I'll make another account.

 

[nuro]

Why does everyone think Bob has the best chances of winning?

Survivor is a real life Mario Party; you never know what is going to happen next.

 

[Kirbynator]

he wins if he gets to final 3 100% sure.

The odds are hes getting voted off before that if the other guys arent stupid enough to not know it.

 

[GenericKen]

Probst's insinuation that the entire season was about Good vs Evil makes me think that Ken makes it to the final 3, only to be blown out by Bob or Matty. Who's left to be "evil"?


Changing subjects, I think there's too much talking down in this thread. Let us presume for the sake of argument that the final 5 players have actually been playing perfect or near-perfect games. This is the 18th season of survivor and almost all the players seem familiar enough with the show to know all the lingo and subtle rules; they're probably all well versed with basic and advanced strategy. Who's to say they're not all strategic geniuses?


***


Bob has played a very good game given the limitations of his age. That is to say, he's been a likable guy his entire life, and he wasn't about to change that in his mid 50s for the sake of a TV show.
Given that likability is a serious threat in a show whose winner is determined by a *popularity contest*, his strategy was clear. He'd lay low with weak ties to alliances to avoid being seen as an immediate threat. He'd let his likability win over jury votes with whoever made it to final 10, and he'd just wait for someone else to backstab the power players in the final 10. If no one emerges to usurp the leader, oh well- he'd probably make final 4 or 6 and he got to safari Africa on a teacher's salary.

This all changed the moment Marcus and Charlie got voted off. The Onion alliance was being eviscerated from the top down, and Bob knew he was next after Charlie. His only hope was hidden immunity, and after that fell through, his last desperate hope was a fake idol. Throwing Randy under the train was his only realistic hope to stay alive, and it paid off! He lost Randy's vote, and it hurt him to his core to make a blood-enemy, but he still has enough votes and it-paid-off.
He's hit runner-runner challenge immunity, and the Fang alliance has begun to crack in the last two turns. He's favored in the jury against any of the other two survivors. His only objective now is to make it to the final 3, and he's got a half dozen ways to get there. He has no reason to target anybody except if he suspects that they'll target him in the final 4. If either Ken or Matty can convince Bob that they'd be satisfied with second, he might leave them alone and hit easier targets (though Ken would probably be the easiest at the moment unless he can make Bob worry about Susie).

The edit Bob's received does not indicate that he'll win, but who knows? Maybe the editors were just sloppy this season.


***


Sugar's drawn a lot of ire for playing emotionally, but I see a lot of reasoning behind it.
Not that I'm claiming Sugar isn't emotional. She's one of the most emotional people I've seen on reality TV. She's an aspiring actress after all.
But she's pragmatic. She's known since the final 9, maybe since the beginning, that she could not win a jury vote. Almost any jury vote. The possibility of a Crystal, Susie, Sugar final 3? It's pretty remote- she'd have to hit Ken, Matty, and Bob three in a row, and she *still* might lose to Susie. It's easy to say never give up so long as you have a chance, no matter how remote, but sometimes it's better to just concede. Maximize your other resources- your time, your energy, for the sake of round 2.

Sugar's been playing a different game from the other survivors. She's playing for exposure. Stay in the game as long as possible. Be interesting and photogenic. Be likable to the camera. Play up antics and position to remain the focus of the show as much as you can (Exile play, Randy prank, Crystal flip, "take this curse-ed thing away"). And she's played this game brilliantly.
She was going to hang onto Ace through to the finals, much like Crystal was on Ken, Randy was on Matty, and Corrine was on Marcus, but when Ken made her panic and flip on Ace to "stay in the game", she had to ad-lib her strategy. Ken thought he was doing her a favor, as she could never win over Ace, but she was never playing to win.

By finally flipping Crystal, she's removed Susie and herself as threats to the other three players, and she's guaranteed to remain on the screen through the end of the season finale. It might seem silly to forfeit 1 million dollars (600 grand after taxes) for a 15 minute shot-in-the-arm of fame, but how many of you knew who "Jessica Kipper" was before this show? Have you seen her imdb lately? What's the average viewership of the season finale of Survivor, that will now recognize her name and face?

She could even still win, if Probst throws another curveball and does final 2 once it's her, Susie, and one of the three guys. Lord knows it wouldn't be all that unlikely this season.


***


I suspect that Susie's playing for the money. Allow me to elaborate.

Like Sugar, Susie doesn't seem too concerned with courting jury votes. She just wants to survive to final 3. Either she knows something about the jury that we don't, she hasn't given thought to final 3 composition and just assumes that anyone has a chance as that point (which she might, if the other players blow their speeches), or perhaps a third thing:

Maybe second place is enough for Susie. 100 grand is decent money, and I get the feeling that Susie's trying to pay off a mortgage or credit card or something by her play. The 6th place payout with Onion might not have been enough, so she's been sacrificing the risky million for the safe 100 grand.
The 100 grand might not be 10 times more likely than Susie winning 1 million (and have a lower expected value), but remember that she only gets to play once. A bird in the hand is worth 1 million in the bush if you're upside-down and under-water without at least one.

Overall, I'm least certain about this line of thinking. She's been lying low enough to be off camera most of the time.


***


Ken's been playing with a disadvantage this entire game. He's been playing not just for himself, but for our sake, to prove that gamers are deserving of respect and that with proper play the underdog can win.
This ties his hands when managing risk. He cannot sit back, coast into the late game, and allow other players to shoot themselves in the foot to bumble him into the finals. He must orchestrate his win, but as poker players say, it's better to be lucky than good.

Active political play works well when the other players are distracted by, say, losing all the time. The endless councils him a opportunity to help clean house of the THREATS (and engineer a jury), whilst Marcus' alliance just could not seem to get rid of its 6th wheel, which would eventually and surely flip. And when Ken hit Charlie, he could see the finals. Onion was topheavy with more jerks than players, and would collapse to the ground, leaving the Fang 5 and him with Crystal and Sugar giving him numbers. Matty going runner-runner with the last two immunity challenges was the only real danger to his win. This was with 8 players left in the game.

And then he blundered. Smash Bros is not exactly a game that trains you in patience. Even when you're stalling and changing your timing, you're constantly doing something to try to force a blunder- always something to improve your position even if just a little. And as final 5 approached and the prospect of Matty winning 2 immunities in a row grew, Ken panicked when Bob showed him a second idol. In that vote, he figured that he stood to lose the least with his 4-3 split. Even if the idol was fake, he'd at least court Corrine's vote in the jury, and a jury vote against Matty could be somewhat safe with either crystal or sugar on it.
He didn't think about the possibility of orchestrating a tie (most people don't- the council was odd numbered), and he didn't think about the perceptual ramifications of Matty's being betrayed if the idol was fake. Matty would still be in the game, and Ken trimmed his decision tree there. He only realized once the idol was fake that he'd made himself a target rivaling Bob, especially with his Crystal alliance being the biggest political threat remaining in the game.

So his biggest objective last show was to oust Bob, reunite the Fang 5, and go back to "only" having the risk of Matty winning the last 2 immunities. He secured a promise from Bob to get rid of Bob's immunity, but it was thin and he knew it. He's just praying for immunity now, so that he has a longshot at ousting Matty at 5th, or slightly more likely, beating him in a jury vote if Sugar's taking him to final 3. Bob must go 5th or 4th if anyone else has a chance of winning, and if Ken is proactive there, I don't know how he wins jury votes with any of the remaining players.

But stranger things have happened. And if it does, it will be EPIC. For all of us.


***


Matty's adapted admirably in the game. His plan was to play a strong physical game, but maybe third or fourth from the top in threats. He'd try to time the vote against the last threat above him just before it's too late to be ousted after him, or better yet, the threat above him could be a total douche who doesn't understand the jury and just lets Matty coast in his wake to the final 3 (with Randy).
And Matty has been screwed out of this plan since day 1, since he got tagged by Gillian to be on the crap-*** team. More than Marcus, more than Bob, Matty has been screwed by the turns of the game more than any other player.

And through it all, he's been fleet-footed. He's almost always chosen the proper alliances and been the second most valuable player on them.
-Perception threat game - He's stayed out of discussions well enough to stay a hidden strategic player, and he's lost enough challenges to remain only the second in the physical threat. I'm almost certain that he threw that basketball reward challenge vs Bob, and perhaps other challenges- it worked well enough to help flip Ken vs Bob.
-Political game - He threw Randy under the bus instead of Bob once he realized that he simply could protect him through to the top 3. He's isolated Sugar well enough to court her kingmaker power.
-Show-bias game - And he's played the cameras well enough to dominate the show-bias game. His growth-story of self-confidence was not nearly as strong as Ken's growth-story of BECOMING A MAN, but he blew Ken out of the water with an on-air marriage proposal (he was planning to propose anyway: 2 birds with one stone!). What television producer would *not* be murdered by corporate assassins if he didn't do everything in his power to hand the newly-betrothed the game? I can see the slow-news-day headlines now:
"CBS-Survivor gives one hell of a marriage present to young people in love! We stand for all things good and American, and totally do not employ a secret cabal of corporate assassins!"

But I digress.

Matty has played a smart, agile, and versatile game. The best game. I'm still rooting for Ken, but if Matty holds true through the finale, he should win it all. That is, both "should probably" and "should deservingly".


***


Ken> Here's to mistakes. Good game.
*raises glass*

 

[metaphysicist]

10 votes for Ken! I was thinking of throwing one to GC just so that I could be the only person who voted for GC.

GenericKen, I read your whole post and think you got it pretty spot on, and I thought your idea about Sugar doing it in part for the reputation was interesting as well. Only part I disagree with was that Ken was doing it "for us," and that being why he has played so actively. I just don't think that's what caused that. I think it just shows his competitive nature, and yes that does tie with his gaming. Really though, he just loves to be the best, and he wouldn't have felt he'd done it right if he had played any other way.

 

[Yuna]

When did I ever claim that moves done against Ken where somehow worse (or less honorable or some other bs) then moves that he did against others?

"You", the people in this thread in general. Not "you" specifically. Sorry if I was unclear.

I think you're just generalizing everybody in this thread and assuming that everyone has the same opinion.

No, but it's a very common practice in this thread.

Your post really doesn't make any sense unless you're misunderstanding me and/or you're assuming that I have the same opinion as some stereotype you've made up in you head.

I've barely read your post. Like anyone reads all posts in all threads they visit here on SWF. I was just arguing that there are indeed plenty of biased people who let their bias run too high.

About Sugar being dishonest:
Sugar lying to Crystal: http://www.cbs.com/primetime/surviv...VbXHxwV6WcTpihW8nV17U_Bi6pafc&play=true&cc=98
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/surviv...GvSTJHTSpEFdR9_OY8YGFkHMbzDRH&play=true&cc=98
^^She's being very smart here and is really playing the game. She's a good actress for sure, lol.

Hello, Mr. Hypocrite, did you somehow totally miss the, oh, 4 posts in which I said that Sugar was being dishonest? I was never arguing she was never dishonest. Just that she wasn't "sleazy" or "evil" for doing it.

And once again, I'm not saying that they've been playing a more dishonest game then Ken has AT ALL. Ken's game has been WAY more sneaky/dishonest or w/e then anyone else's in this entire season of Survivor (probably, i cant think of anyone else). Should I repeat this a few more times so you understand?

No one said you were. I said people see someone being dishonest vs. Ken as something much worse than if the same had been done towards anyone else, be it by Ken or not.

EDIT: I just realized how hilarious it is that I said that you where gonna make some rethorical statement about how biased we are towards ken and how you're able to see through it, and then you quote that exact part of the post doing just that! Either you didn't read what you just responded to, or you're trying to look stupid. I have no idea lmao.

Why? Nothing in your post refutes any of the stuff I said. You said they are hypocrites for calling Ken a bad guy, yet playing dishonestly themselves.

I say "No, they're not". They've played dishonestly (and my main argument has been that Sugar isn't sleazy, I've barely touched upon Matty's play), just not "sleazily", "evilly" or whatever and that when compared, Ken is indeed on the "evil" side while Sugar is not.

IMO, that comparison is correct. Does it make Ken a bad person? No, not really. But it's a justified comparison.

Nothing in your post invalidates anything I've said in response to it. I don't care what you said in other posts, that one post did nothing to dent my argument.

What's tragic is that not only is it just a game, they're all being paid to play, no matter how bad they do. Talk about ungrateful... >_>

They get money regardless? How much?

Yuna, it is not so much that we are upset that Sugar ousted Ken's number 1 ally and put ken in a bad position. Lying, manipulating, backstabbing and flipping are all part of the game. It is too be expected. However Sugar is playing the game (or her own version of it) just as much as others have, yet has this idea that she is a good person and wouldn't dare stoop to such low tactics. They are being hypocrites. I would have much more respect for them if they didn't try to take this so called "moral high ground."

Sugar never claimed to never have done anything "bad" or that she would never "stoop to this or that". The level Sugar is playing at can be characterized as "good" while Ken's is evil. Sugar's barely done anything that can be characterized as "bad" and when she does it, she doesn't do it in an overly sleazy way, either.

I mean, did Sugar try to guilt someone out of immunity just for lying to them (despite her lying constantly to others) in order to vote them out? Did she lie to someone's closests ally to have them turn and vote them out? Ken's playing the game on a whole other level.

In a Good vs. Evil comparison, it's perfectly acceptable to see Sugar as "Good". Not Jesus-good, no one's claiming that. But Ken's just so downright "dirty" there's plenty of people who'll qualify as "good" in comparison.

It is like if you played DK and this casual player played DDD. The casual player always talked about how he hated tourney players and their way of playing. He/she talks about how he/she can win without using lame tourney tactics.

Only Sugar never said anything of that sort. She just characterized Ken's play as "bad" and something she didn't like, thus she broke up their alliance.

Has she talked down on Ken as a person, ever? Has she claimed to be a better person than Ken, ever? No, just that in a Good vs. Evil world, she's Good and he's Evil (or rather, "Bad Guys" vs. "Good Guys").

It's important to keep in mind here that Sugar and Matty have never looked down on Ken as a person. Only on the way he's playing the game as something they'd never do (at least not to the same extent) and something they do not want to be associated with (for Sugar's part, apparently Matty's been secretly gunning for him for a long while).

It is this false idea that they played with "honor" when they played the same "play to win" way as you. It is hypocritical and really unnecessary.

Only they aren't. They're playing to win. But Ken's playing to win on a whole other level.

ken is waaay more stronger then matty, he like, climed an mountain.

Yeah, I'm sure he did it with his bare hands and not with mountain climber equipment. And who's to say Matty can't climb a mountain in the same way?

 

[kabloodysun]

Now that the season is coming to an end, I have a question for those who just started watching survivor this season because of Ken. From the posts here it seems like many have enjoyed the show so far. Will any of you watch the next season(s)? Have you enjoyed the experience you've had with the concept of Survivor?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

"You", the people in this thread in general. Not "you" specifically. Sorry if I was unclear.


No, but it's a very common practice in this thread.


I've barely read your post. Like anyone reads all posts in all threads they visit here on SWF. I was just arguing that there are indeed plenty of biased people who let their bias run too high.

No one said you were. I said people see someone being dishonest vs. Ken as something much worse than if the same had been done towards anyone else, be it by Ken or not.

I did think that you were targeting towards me since you where quoting me. But since you weren't: Sorry for the misunderstanding. My bad.
But you really should make it more clear next time. It's pretty natural to think that you're targeting me when you're quoting me >.>. Especially considering that we're not even arguing about the same thing (apparently):

Hello, Mr. Hypocrite, did you somehow totally miss the, oh, 4 posts in which I said that Sugar was being dishonest? I was never arguing she was never dishonest. Just that she wasn't "sleazy" or "evil" for doing it.

Why? Nothing in your post refutes any of the stuff I said. You said they are hypocrites for calling Ken a bad guy, yet playing dishonestly themselves.

I say "No, they're not". They've played dishonestly (and my main argument has been that Sugar isn't sleazy, I've barely touched upon Matty's play), just not "sleazily", "evilly" or whatever and that when compared, Ken is indeed on the "evil" side while Sugar is not.

IMO, that comparison is correct. Does it make Ken a bad person? No, not really. But it's a justified comparison.

Nothing in your post invalidates anything I've said in response to it. I don't care what you said in other posts, that one post did nothing to dent my argument.

Well my main point is that Sugar is a hypocrite calling Ken a bad guy when she is doing "dishonest" moves herself (not as much as Ken, but she still has).

You seem to agree with Sugar being dishonest and that Ken is being more dishonest. And your argument is that editing Sugar as a good guy while editing Ken as a bad guy isn't entirely innaccurate (since Ken has been more dishonest). I think this is what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong here.
However, this hasn't been my point and I could probably even agree with it. I don't really care that much about that topic actually, the only thing I've been arguing about is Sugar being a hypocrite.
I don't think Sugar is sleazy or evil or whatever for what she did. I never even used those words to begin with, and she's playing the game. But she IS being hypocritical.

If the producers want to edit Ken as a bad guy I'm fine with that. In fact it would've been kind of stupid if they edited him as a cute little videogamer kid considering how he's been playing the game.

tl;dr
Ken is more of a "bad guy" then Sugar is, so editing the show as such isn't innaccurate.
Sugar is a hypocrite for wanting the "good guys" to win while lying to Crystal. Lie to Crystal all you want, but don't act like you're a "good guy" if you're gonna do it.

 

[Yuna]

I did think that you were targeting towards me since you where quoting me. But since you weren't: Sorry for the misunderstanding. My bad.
But you really should make it more clear next time. It's pretty natural to think that you're targeting me when you're quoting me >.>. Especially considering that we're not even arguing about the same thing (apparently):

I was quoting you merely for the "bias"-part. It was my fault for not making it clear that the rest of the post was more general and not targeted at you. I apologize for this.

Well my main point is that Sugar is a hypocrite calling Ken a bad guy when she is doing "dishonest" moves herself (not as much as Ken, but she still has).

And my position is that you can do "dishonest" moves without necessarily being a "bad guy". Very few "good guys" are squeaky clean.

Sugar has done very few "dishonest" things (in comparison to everyone else) and the ways in which she is "dishonest" is far much lighter than Ken's. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable, in my mind, to characterize Ken as a "bad guy" (but not "bad person") vs. Sugar's "good guy".

You seem to agree with Sugar being dishonest and that Ken is being more dishonest. And your argument is that editing Sugar as a good guy while editing Ken as a bad guy isn't entirely innaccurate (since Ken has been more dishonest).

Not editing. I'm not arguing how CBS has edited the show. I'm arguing that from what I've seen, characterizing (as in as viewers or Sugar herself) Ken and Sugar as "Bad" vs. "Good" is perfectly valid.

Sugar's not squeaky clean, but she's "cleaner" than Ken enough for that to be a valid comparison.

However, this hasn't been my point and I could probably even agree with it. I don't really care that much about that topic actually, the only thing I've been arguing about is Sugar being a hypocrite.

And in my opinion, she isn't.

I don't think Sugar is sleazy or evil or whatever for what she did. I never even used those words to begin with, and she's playing the game. But she IS being hypocritical.

Those were not your words. Those were words being thrown around in this thread.

Sugar is a hypocrite for wanting the "good guys" to win while lying to Crystal.

You can be a "good guy" and still lie to people for the sake of "the game". This is not any every day situation. Sugar is not Mother Theresa. This is Survivor. And in the context of the game, Ken has clearly joined the ranks of former "bad guys" such as Todd of Survivor: China (and that other person who got into the Top 3, the lying, scheming, conniving one) while Sugar is quite tame in comparison and it's perfectly OK to view her as a "good guy"... in the context of the show and in comparison to other players, past and present.

This is not "Who Wants To Be The Most Charitable Person". On Survivor, you can lie and scheme without necessarily being a bad guy. Sugar lied to Crystal because she was disagreeing with Ken's and Crystal's methods (mostly Ken's, Crystal was mostly just a sheep by the end there) and therefore chose to save Matty.

It wasn't even much of a malicious lie. "OK, fine, I'll stick to Ken's plan of voting out Matty." - It's a lie, just one of many, in playing "the game". Ken's lies are of a far worse nature.

"Wah wah! You lied to me, Bob! How could you?! Now my game's all messed up! *guilt guilt guilt* Ouh, you wanna gimme your immunity? Fine. Hey guys, let's vote out Bob after he gives me his Immunity! What, Bob will only do it if he thinks I might get voted off? Guys, everybody lie to him!"

This does not make Ken a bad person. But in the context of playing the game, it's perfectly valid, IMO, to view Ken as "a bad guy" and Sugar as a "good guy". It's not like it's bad to be a bad guy. Bad guys have won before.

Todd did.

Lie to Crystal all you want, but don't act like you're a "good guy" if you're gonna do it.

And this is where we disagree. Tell me, would you have reacted just as strongly if it had been anyone but Crystal (or Ken)? What about Bob? He lied to Randy that one time. Is he now a Bad Guy, too?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm only using "good guy" and "bad guy" in lack of better words. I don't like judging people as good or bad since it doesn't even make any sense to begin with.
ESPECIALLY not in survivor (Lying, manipulating etc are central parts of the game)

And please don't argue that judging people as good or bad does somehow make sense. It doesn't, noone's squeeky clean, remember?

I wouldn't have reacted at all if she hadn't claimed to be a good guy. This is what I'm reacting to. I honestly don't care if she's a "good guy" or a "bad guy".
You can't call people good guys and bad guys in survivor, especially not if you're using those "bad guy"/"dishonest" tactics themselves. Which sugar IS, not as much as ken, but she still is. We've been through this.
I don't understand how a she cant be a hypocrite when she's calling others bad guys for using tactics that she's using herself (even if she isn't using them as much). If you don't think that doesn't make someone a hypocrite, I don't care.

If ken would be boasting around how much of a good guy he is and how the good guys should win, then yes I'd deffinetly react. I'd probably stop watching the show altogether, and shake my head in disgust.

And that last part you wrote about Bob just convinces me that you're to stupid to understand what I'm saying so I writing this was a waste of time lol. My whole argument is that judging people as good/bad is stupid to begin with, remember? That's why I bashed Sugar. What part of this do you not understand?
I'm done.

 

[Yuna]

And please don't argue that judging people as good or bad does somehow make sense. It doesn't, noone's squeeky clean, remember?

What part of "You do not need to be squeaky clean to be a Good Guy, especially not in the context of Survivor" was too Brazilian Portuguese for you?

There are many ways to play Survivor. It's perfectly possible to play as a "Good Guy" and still win (though hard). And it's perfectly OK to lie, especially in Survivor, yet remain a good guy. Tell me, how many good guys throughout history have never lied, eh?

I wouldn't have reacted at all if she hadn't claimed to be a good guy. This is what I'm reacting to. I honestly don't care if she's a "good guy" or a "bad guy".

So the logic here is that it does not matter whether or not she is what she claims to be, it's that she had the arrogance to think she was a "good guy" in the first place?

Wow, then Ken's plenty arrogant. He claims to be tons of stuff all the time! People claim to be stuff all the time both on Survivor and in real life. And why does it not matter if they are what they claim to be? Because then they're perfectly justified in claiming it!

You can't call people good guys and bad guys in survivor, especially not if you're using those "bad guy"/"dishonest" tactics themselves. Which sugar IS, not as much as ken, but she still is. We've been through this.

Yes, we've been through this. You can be dishonest and still be a "Good guy", especially on Survivor.

I don't understand how a she cant be a hypocrite when she's calling others bad guys for using tactics that she's using herself.

I'm sorry, she singled out single tactics that Ken's used when? He views him as a good guy for a jillion things he's done, most of which she's never come close to doing!

My whole argument is that judging people as good/bad is stupid to begin with, remember? That's why I bashed Sugar. What part of this do you not understand?
I'm done.

Why can't you characterize people as "Good" or "Bad" in the context of Survivor? My argument is that you can.

You've argued that Sugar cannot be a "Good guy" with the logic that she lied to Crystal. You specifically used that argument. I presented my case against Bob. He's lied, too. According to your logic, he is then a "Bad guy" (or at least not a "Good guy").

If you're gonna argue there is no Good/Bad, argue it exclusively. Don't throw in random BS about how Sugar must also be a bad guy or this and that.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

So the logic here is that it does not matter whether or not she is what she claims to be, it's that she had the arrogance to think she was a "good guy" in the first place?

You can't call people good guys and bad guys in survivor, especially not if you're using those "bad guy"/"dishonest" tactics themselves. Which sugar IS, not as much as ken, but she still is. We've been through this.
I don't understand how a she cant be a hypocrite when she's calling others bad guys for using tactics that she's using herself (even if she isn't using them as much). If you don't think that doesn't make someone a hypocrite, I don't care..

By her logic, Ken is a bad guy because he's spreading lies. But she is also lying! By that logic she would also be a bad guy, since she's been lying aswell.
That's why she's a hypocrite. I don't care that she did it less, she still did it, and hence she is a hypocrite.

Again, I don't care about this good guy/bad guy BS. It's stupid.

 

[crosser43]

Bob didn't even plan to play the game. He doesn't even want the million
"I’m not playing the game, I’m here to have a good time. And a million dollars only buys you friends you don’t need and tempts you with sins you shouldn’t be committing anyway."

 

[Turbo Ether]

What time does it come on today?

 

[crosser43]

8 EST and Reunion at 10 EST.

 

[victra♥]

Great! Can't wait to see it tonight. Who would have thought Ken would have made it this far? So sexy.

 

[SandStorm]

Ken has played extraordinarily well throughout this game.

I'm frankly amazed by his transition as the quiet under-dog outsider, to a Machiavellian mastermind.

However he made a crucial miscalculation that has found him in a precarious position in the final five whereas he's facing a base of 3 strong insiders (two of whom are much better at challenges overall than him, Bob, Sugar, Matty), and the lead-along Suzie.

Indeed he was cleverly fooled by a hidden idol forgery, but he shouldn't of taken a half measure trying to maintain ties to his *5*, while showing a symbolic gesture of support to the two he thought he had immunity with.

Either he should've just voted with the 5 as planned and taken himself to the final 3 Sugar-Crystal and himself, or went for a full flip with Crystal. If he voted with the original 5 than if the hidden immunity idol was real, than Matty would've been voted off anyways, and he would've maintained face with the rest of the tribe. Still having the numbers to continue 4-2.

Or if he wanted a shift in gameplay, he should've went full on with the new 4 person alliance of bob-corrianne-crystal and himself. And taken those numbers to the finals. He may have jepordized some tribal votes, however by the end he would've impressed everyone by controlling and shifting the game so often and they would vote for him purely based on merit.

Now he's basically on the outs, and the only way I see him avoiding getting voted off next is by winning immunity so the newly formed alliance could cannibalize itself, and then play off . Who knows maybe bob will give him immunity if he wins it again (Because Bob might want to keep up apperances and maintain his promise. I wouldn't count on it though, Ken really needs to win it himself to be safe.). If it came down to 4 (and I assume that if ken doesn't get voted off, Suzie would), then he could turn Bob over to his side convincing him that Matty - Sugar would vote him off in a clinch.

So yeah, I've really gotta hand it to Ken, he's done this community proud. Unfortunately he made a late mis-step which could cost him the game, however he could change fortune by winning immunity next.

 

[mitch2302]

ken bettar win something, or smash bros goes on strike.

 

[victra♥]

If Ken wins, there's going to be an uproar.

If Ken loses, there's going to be an uproar.

I can't wait.

Most of my smasher friends are heading over today to watch it with me. So excited.

 

[mitch2302]

...gar. i have an exam tomorrow at 9 am. and then another one on tuesday at 9 am...then another one on wed....at 9 am. but i want to waaaatch!!!

 

[victra♥]

...gar. i have an exam tomorrow at 9 am. and then another one on tuesday at 9 am...then another one on wed....at 9 am. but i want to waaaatch!!!

Solution: Watch it, and then study till midnight. Wake up at 8 after a good 8 hours of sleep and do a quick review on your way to class.

Outcome: Sex.

 

[mitch2302]

ohhhh, i never realized that studying+survivor = sex.

i should have. its perfectly obvious

if only smash could be fit in there somehow...

ps: wow, i've gotten 100 posts just cause of this thread-- i love it

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I'm guessing Ken comes in 4th.

Company was coming over today and I have no Tivo or anything so I was worried but I was talking to them and it turns out they're big Survivor fans too. Lucky me.

 

[MajorasMask999]

ps: wow, i've gotten 100 posts just cause of this thread-- i love it

Same ^o^

And to make this post somewhat relevant, for those that have seen what the Final Five Immunity Challenge looks like, is it not the most badass maze ever?

Maybe Vanuatu's Vertical Maze and Fiji's Brail Maze were better but that looks like it's going to be up there with my favorite maze challenges :3.

Ken is going to dominate that. I can't wait.

 

[mitch2302]

High-five for being smash journeymen? high-five! alright!!

..but you play brawl. ew.

edit: yes it looks epic.

 

[Ukemi]

Has anyone noticed that both Sugar AND Bob have not been voted against EVER?

That has never happened. (According to CBS it has but they miscounted.)

Agh. Survivor pwn3d my matchup chart and tier list. Lol. I got pwn3d by a TV show.