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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Diddy Kong

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It can still end up being a mixed bag though, since Bowser is arguably the worst fighter in Melee, while he excels a lot better in Smash 3DS / Wii U. Likewise, Smash 3DS / Wii U Mewtwo is a lot better than its Melee incarnation.
Honestly, if it is to please the competitive crowd, then of course disfunctional characters as Bowser must be fixed as well. Smash 4 did this perfectly, and I would want to see a moveset for Bowser reflecting his Smash 4 playstyle cause they finally did it right (with the right amounts of buffs). Same with Mewtwo, and to a lesser extent; Roy. Roy and Falco I'd hope they keep their semi-clone movesets, but I would buff them up.

Melee HD should have a smaller cast anyway as to avoid balance problems. And just because it's called Melee, it doesn't need to have a Zelda / Sheik switching character, disfunctional movesets for Bowser and Mewtwo and having Pichu in general.
 
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Changing Melee balance any further than the PAL changes would just defeat the purpose of Melee HD. The whole point is to give competitive players a way to play their competitive game without needing CRTs and Wiis.

Keep the balance as is, or the target market (which is already extremely niche) is already being pushed away.
 
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Ura

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Melee HD needs to take the Melee SD Remix approach. Keeping the top tier characters as they are and buffing the lower tier characters.

Imagine how many tiers Roy could jump if they buffed the sourspot of his sword to be like Lucina's.
 

Spazzy_D

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We always said we wouldn't do this sort of video. I mean, it's click baity, highly opinionated, and creatively bankrupt.

But people also seem to like them, haha.

(Please note this was based on a staff vote, and that there are about 10 characters that got more than a few votes but didn't make the list.)
 
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ShadowKoopa

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We always said we wouldn't do this sort of video. I mean, it's click baity, highly opinionated, and creatively bankrupt.

But people also seem to like them, haha.

(Please note this was based on a staff vote, and that there are about 10 characters that got more than a few votes but didn't make the list.)
Oh boy, what a list. Those jokes are gonna make some people very angry, probably more than just excluding them.

I will say the editing is definitely better than usual. Weird how this one is the best-edited one.
 

Spazzy_D

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It should also be noted that Ridley is my number 1 choice, but I didn't vote for him because I don't see him getting in unless he appears in a more workable form in a new game or if Sakurai is no longer directing. I mean, it could still happen, surely, but I doubt it.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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All that I know is that if Smash 3DS / Wii U does happen to get a Nintendo Switch port, the lowest ranked fighters will need to receive a good amount of adjustments to their movesets.
 

Bowserlick

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The bottom tiers are helped out the most if the top fighters receive nerfs in order to have more consistent weaknesses and less over-powered tools, while the bottom-ranked characters also receive buffs.
 
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Diddy Kong

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The bottom tiers are helped out the most if the top fighters receive nerfs in order to have more consistent weaknesses and less over-powered tools, while the bottom-ranked characters also receive buffs.
I disagree. There are only a handful of 'bad' characters in Smash 4. With all the patches considered, at least half of the cast are functional characters with a good and fitting moveset.

And there's characters in the lower end of the spectrum of competitive usefulness which where good characters at one point before. Like Falco in both Melee and Brawl, Samus, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and Dr.Mario in Melee. King Dedede in Brawl minus the chain grabs... These characters where all good, at one point. So those would reguire less work to balance I imagine.

I also hope for no nerfs and it's likely Smash 4 Switch would be balanced like the latest patch. Nerfing high tiers would result in something awful like Brawl Sheik, or Brawl Mario, early Smash 4 Marth before buffs, Falco in Smash 4... Samus in her 'Power' Suit ever since Brawl. They also nerfed Diddy Kong at one point that he no longer was a real functional character in competitive play, then they buffed him back.

Certain characters are just better designed for competitve play than others. Pikachu, Fox, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight and Marth have always been at the Top 70% for example. Sheik and Falco have been Top Tier twice, and Captain Falcon was also a well performing character in all games but Brawl.

They know how to play Smash in a competitive way. These guys are probaly playing the heck out of the games themselves. I trust Namco and the rest of the Smash team enough to come with a good port / remake on Switch. It's a huge roster with above average balance considering it's size. Characters like Robin, Donkey Kong or Bowser can get results in tournaments. I think it would be a waste not to at least use the engine of Smash 4 to build up the next Smash.
 

TeddyBearYoshi

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Uh, you can't really say that for sure. I mean, I don't think it's happening either, but you kind of have no authority over the franchise.

It's really a case of "due to our observations, it's pretty unlikely to get nothing more than an HD remake" at best at this point.

For that matter, it could be a regular HD release, it could be the VC game with updated graphics, it could be an overhauled version with bug fixes... who knows. Or it may never get any kind of re-release. Again, who knows. I don't. You don't. Only Nintendo does.
I highly doubt Nintendo will ever remake a Smash game, but if they did, I think 64 would be more likely. Melee on Switch GC VC is likely, but putting resources into remastering Melee makes no sense from Nintendo's perspective.

For the same reason they won't remake Double Dash, it makes no sense for them to put resources into something that can't exist without competing with the latest title. For a party game series, it's usually limited to one per system except for special cases like Mario Party (which even now has slowed down per console)..

Remaking Melee is a minefield, and wouldn't be worth the effort anyways. Change nothing, then you've released a port of a party game mainstream consumers just see as smaller than Sm4sh and many see as unbalanced or not fun if you play certain characters like Ness. Change things and then you've upset the Melee fanbase and likely doom it to failure; and drawing any attention away from the main Smash Switch title to begin with would be bad for Nintendo.

It would be such a niche title that wouldn't exist except for keeping a group of competitive players (whom Nintendo has already shown they don't really care to cater towards if it requires much effort before) happy. Then you have to consider that this isn't even NoA, it's Nintendo in Japan that makes decisions like this where it likely makes even less sense in their eyes.
 
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Bowserlick

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I disagree. There are only a handful of 'bad' characters in Smash 4. With all the patches considered, at least half of the cast are functional characters with a good and fitting moveset.

And there's characters in the lower end of the spectrum of competitive usefulness which where good characters at one point before. Like Falco in both Melee and Brawl, Samus, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and Dr.Mario in Melee. King Dedede in Brawl minus the chain grabs... These characters where all good, at one point. So those would reguire less work to balance I imagine.

I also hope for no nerfs and it's likely Smash 4 Switch would be balanced like the latest patch. Nerfing high tiers would result in something awful like Brawl Sheik, or Brawl Mario, early Smash 4 Marth before buffs, Falco in Smash 4... Samus in her 'Power' Suit ever since Brawl. They also nerfed Diddy Kong at one point that he no longer was a real functional character in competitive play, then they buffed him back.
Tiers rank characters by comparing the roster to one another. Buffing bottom-tiers and nerfing high-tier characters bridge the gap between the level of performance. Smash 4 is the most balanced game of the series. Part of the reason for this is the release of patches.
 

XJustified

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I can agree with most of what is being said here about nerfs/buffs. But I need to point out that Diddy is the one who makes the best point.

Only a handful of characters are actually "bad", which is a huge step up from previous titles. This time in, most of the characters are serviceable if not truly usable in competition if people put enough effort in. That isn't to say if I switched from my main, Ike, to focusing on a higher tiered character like Cloud I would not see a large leap in my play, but in both cases it takes time. I know 100% that my Ike is better than my Cloud right now and that is because I chose to put in the work to a character I like.

Nerfs and Buffs are for sure important in fighting games, but that isn't an excuse to call for them instead of trying to work things out ourselves first. Just look at people calling for Bayo to be banned like MK was in Brawl, now a new status quo is set and she is more accepted as people grow more accustomed to playing as/against her.

---

I do speculate if/when Smash 4 is ported to Switch, there will likely be no new characters and they will just make it the definitive edition. This is the easiest and simplest way for Nintendo to do it.

My projection is it will be at E3 next year in some capacity and release around this time next fall. This gives a long enough window for people to continue purchasing ARMS and Pokken Tournament DX without Smash stealing buyers away from that, while also giving thousands of people reason to buy a Switch in Summer 2018. It makes the most sense for marketing and sales.

As for Melee HD, I doubt it will ever happen, purely because Sakurai has stated, or at least I am fairly certain, somewhere that they no longer have the source code for the game and would need to remake it from the ground up for such a thing. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Nintendo to do, so expect at most a release on eshop or something along those lines.
 

Bowserlick

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I can agree with most of what is being said here about nerfs/buffs. But I need to point out that Diddy is the one who makes the best point.

Only a handful of characters are actually "bad", which is a huge step up from previous titles. This time in, most of the characters are serviceable if not truly usable in competition if people put enough effort in. That isn't to say if I switched from my main, Ike, to focusing on a higher tiered character like Cloud I would not see a large leap in my play, but in both cases it takes time. I know 100% that my Ike is better than my Cloud right now and that is because I chose to put in the work to a character I like.

Nerfs and Buffs are for sure important in fighting games, but that isn't an excuse to call for them instead of trying to work things out ourselves first. Just look at people calling for Bayo to be banned like MK was in Brawl, now a new status quo is set and she is more accepted as people grow more accustomed to playing as/against her.
Bayo was better than she is currently. She was nerfed with a patch which took away her instant kill combo, among other traits. Bayo still has too many tools and advantages over other characters. A few of these tools have to be nerfed further.

While some characters have too many options, top-priority moves, hit-stun, ect., a few characters have too little. If they are buffed, while the very top characters are nerfed, more characters will be that much more competitive.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I highly doubt Nintendo will ever remake a Smash game, but if they did, I think 64 would be more likely. Melee on Switch GC VC is likely, but putting resources into remastering Melee makes no sense from Nintendo's perspective.
Nobody was saying it was likely. You're intentionally missing the point of my message. I already said it was unlikely, as was my argument. The point is clearly "We can't say anything for sure."

And the rest of your message, while interesting, doesn't really combat mine. I don't know why people think I ever thought it was likely. What I did think is that people need to stop acting like they know for sure.

It's very clear that @Arcadenik meant that it was unlikely. The problem is, his argument was poorly worded to have a completely different meaning. I don't need to reread the same arguments of why it's unlikely either. I already know them. It's been repeated.

------------

As for the idea of Melee HD, they absolutely have to be careful in handling it if they choose to do so. Nerfing any top tiers would already go too far. Buffing some low tiers is fine. But most importantly, they need to fix the Wavedashing so it is viable for every character, if they really want to make the game really good. Beyond that, obviously enable any trophies that weren't unlockable in the non-JP versions, of course. That's a given. Any other beta stuff doesn't much matter unless it was something only Japan got. No need to ignore the US in cases like that. Obviously any licensing issues could show up, like how some items were supposed to be from Perfect Dark, and they can update Trophies a little just saying what games they're from at best. No big deal. Any other major glitches(no, not Wavedashing. That's not even a glitch) could potentially be fixed to keep the game from having major errors.

Finally, they could actually make it worth the purchase beyond "just an updated graphics and fixing some bugs/balance issues" if they wanted. There's other beta stuff like a Fire Emblem course that would be a great idea to enable. If they want to go with characters, it's best to just have an extra mode or specific setups depending which ones. Boss Mode for the 3 main bosses(Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Giga Bowser) would be neat. Always on Final Destination. They can easily make the Wire Frames playable without any real issues. At best, they'd be harder to play with due to no special moves, but they are completely playable. Just give them low gravity as a natural state to justify the lack of a recovery move. And that's an ideal and easy way to enable extra playable characters. That is, without going into cut character ideas. Maybe add some more costume options too if you want. Update those a bit to have around 8 each if you can do so(may be hard due to licensing issues, mostly with Pokemon-related ones, though).

However, I think the biggest thing that makes Melee HD unlikely isn't some "they don't like competitive play" thing. It's that they already couldn't just transfer Melee's data to Smash 3DS/Wii U. Mewtwo had to be recreated from scratch. So it's possible that them trying to redo the game could be actually pretty difficult if the data is hard to work with. If not, then no problem.
 
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It should also be noted that Ridley is my number 1 choice, but I didn't vote for him because I don't see him getting in unless he appears in a more workable form in a new game or if Sakurai is no longer directing. I mean, it could still happen, surely, but I doubt it.
I wonder if people understand that Ridley will never ever be playable because his wings would constantly clip through most platforms while in idle, which is a big no-no.
 
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I wonder if people understand that Ridley will never ever be playable because his wings would constantly clip through most platforms while in idle, which is a big no-no.
Of all of the possible valid reasons why Ridley is unlikely to be made playable in the future of the series....this is not one of them.

Ridley would most likely be standing on all fours with his wings folded and on a semi-horizontal plane in his idle, unlike Charizard.





Rids.png
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I wonder if people understand that Ridley will never ever be playable because his wings would constantly clip through most platforms while in idle, which is a big no-no.
That's a non issue.

We already have several characters poking through platforms.

The funniest example being Ganondorf's head.

It's more that the wings proportions make them really odd to scale down.
 

Swamp Sensei

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You people are charming, aren't ya?
 

Aurane

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That's the only good thing about it.
That's not true.

They aren't ripping each others' arms off and beating each other with them. And the mods aren't breaking down crying in frustration of these animals.

Its a civil ridley discussion.

That good.
 

Swamp Sensei

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There have been plenty of civil Ridley discussions.

They just tend to stop when people **** on them.

Kind of like how just now we were having a civil Ridley discussion.

And some bunghole decided to get snarky.
 
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There have been plenty of civil Ridley discussions.

They just tend to stop when people **** on them.

Kind of like how just now we were having a civil Ridley discussion.

And some bunghole decided to get snarky.
While i agree with the sentiment that most ridley discussions (on smashboards at least) are fine until someone desides to start flaming. . .do not call people bungholes. . .


*sigh* i miss the comradarie of the ridley thread, the in-jokes, and blind faith. those were fun times
 

Swamp Sensei

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do not call people bungholes. . .
The funny thing is that I was calling myself the bunghole.

:troll:

Okay I'll stop.



To change the subject, what if we got a retro character from the Gameboy or SNES?
 

Staarih

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The ones from Game Boy I remember seeing having some support are Muddy Mole and Prince of Sable for instance, not sure how I personally feel about either of them.

I’d gladly take Lip for SNES though. And K. Rool (original design) might as well be a retro rep at this point too.
 

asia_catdog_blue

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Just remember guy. When suggest new content or ideas, you have to think about the one, major thing.

How would they work?
 
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It's more that the wings proportions make them really odd to scale down.
But that's exactly the point I'm making. Ganon's head is barely noticeable and only if you pause the game really.

Ridley's wingspan is massive, meaning his wings would be constantly clipping thorough most platforms.

>it's a nonissue
For an unprofessional mod... yes.

For a game with Nintendo's level of polish? Absolutely not.

Yea, there are other issues, but they mostly have work-arounds, as proven by that Ridley mod. However, this is the one issue that can't be fixed unless you a) raised all the platforms in the game just to accommodate him, or b) destroyed the integrity of the character by deforming him or making his idle something really awkward like a prone position, just so he can fit.

Moreover, you have to account that the mere act of moving, would have him clip through platforms ALL the time. Any time he ever did an attack, a good portion of his body would clip due to him stretching out. Then when you account for things like hitboxes and game balance it become a huge issue.

A character like Ridley would be perfectly fine in a traditional fighter with no platforms, or even in stages like FD, it's when you add platforms into the mix when it becomes evident just how out of place he feels in the game.

Finally, the sheer size of his wingspan adds another complication when it comes to the blast zone. It makes it very easy for him to die when out of bounds, as all it takes is for one bit of his wings to touch the blast zone for it to count as a KO.
 
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Diddy Kong

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I just wanna clarify, Ridley discussion was never 'good'. It was a forced and oppressive "fanbase". You could literally have arguements with people if you didn't include Ridley on your prediction roster. :rolleyes:
 

Cutie Gwen

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I just wanna clarify, Ridley discussion was never 'good'. It was a forced and oppressive "fanbase". You could literally have arguements with people if you didn't include Ridley on your prediction roster. :rolleyes:
To be fair anyone can do that. Plus, I'd argue Ridley's not even the worst when doing that. Anyone remember the absolute HATRED from angry K.Rool fans when he didn't win the ballot and demanded ballot results as they were certain it was rigged? Not saying anyone wanting a character in Smash will always act like this, every community just has bad apples
 

Diddy Kong

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To be fair anyone can do that. Plus, I'd argue Ridley's not even the worst when doing that. Anyone remember the absolute HATRED from angry K.Rool fans when he didn't win the ballot and demanded ballot results as they were certain it was rigged? Not saying anyone wanting a character in Smash will always act like this, every community just has bad apples
> Still thinking Bayonetta won the ballot

Jokes aside, K.Rool supporters DID have a lot of reasons to be mad this time around. The Mii costume being build from no recent designs, Kremlings showing up after ages of inaction, Dixie Kong not showing up at all... It where bigger hints than other communities, and I still believe that he was planned but decided against.

Why?

No recent appearance so no big marketing stunt like Cloud, Bayonetta or Corrin.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I just wanna clarify, Ridley discussion was never 'good'. It was a forced and oppressive "fanbase". You could literally have arguements with people if you didn't include Ridley on your prediction roster. :rolleyes:
Diddy you threw a tantrum when Diddy Kong lost Hoo Haa.

You don't have much room to talk.

> Still thinking Bayonetta won the ballot

Jokes aside, K.Rool supporters DID have a lot of reasons to be mad this time around. The Mii costume being build from no recent designs, Kremlings showing up after ages of inaction, Dixie Kong not showing up at all... It where bigger hints than other communities, and I still believe that he was planned but decided against.

Why?

No recent appearance so no big marketing stunt like Cloud, Bayonetta or Corrin.
Oh my gosh, you sound just like a Ridley conspiracy theorist.

Holy crap Diddy, you have no self awareness.
 
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Dont insult fanbases. Sweeping generalizations like that just make you look foolish, and are extremely rude anyway.

Also, its hypocricy since one of you already attacked me for being displeased with another fanbase in the past. Knock it off.

There have been plenty of civil Ridley discussions.

They just tend to stop when people **** on them.
most ridley discussions are fine until someone desides to start flaming.
Foreshadowing.
 

N3ON

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Again, Bayonetta did "win" the ballot, because she was the one that got included. The goal was not to get the most votes, the goal was to become a playable character.
 

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I just wanna clarify, Ridley discussion was never 'good'. It was a forced and oppressive "fanbase". You could literally have arguements with people if you didn't include Ridley on your prediction roster. :rolleyes:
> Still thinking Bayonetta won the ballot

Jokes aside, K.Rool supporters DID have a lot of reasons to be mad this time around. The Mii costume being build from no recent designs, Kremlings showing up after ages of inaction, Dixie Kong not showing up at all... It where bigger hints than other communities, and I still believe that he was planned but decided against.

Why?

No recent appearance so no big marketing stunt like Cloud, Bayonetta or Corrin.
This is kind of a textbook example of the fundamental attribution error.

"When they do it, they're oppressive. When we do it, we have legitimate grievances."
 
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Oooh Smash speculation. Gimme

Off topic, but is the Mimikyu bandwagon still a thing?
 

NonSpecificGuy

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I'm not completely convinced Bayonetta 'won' the ballot either. Though I don't think K. Rool or Ridley would have been close either. It's up in the air until at least next Smash, or you know forever if they don't ever release actual results.
 
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