Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Lyndis_]

4th Party is not a thing.

4th Party doesn't even make sense. How is something 4th party? I wish someone could explain the logic behind the word ''4th party".

While the phrase itself doesn't really make sense, I believe it's a useful term that does make sense (even if there's no such thing as a 4th party.)

4th party is basically not just outside of the company but outside of the medium entirely.

Characters from things like movies, books, etc; that have nothing to do with video games. I think we can, however, safely say we will never get 4th party representation in Smash... ever. Let alone a character.

 

[Hinata]

Sora is the closest thing to a case of there being two parties to deal with when it comes to a VG character and he's still not 4th Party.

You simply have a case of him being shared between Square and Disney. I can see them allowing him if it were up to Square, but I simply think the problem with Sora is he's so connected to Donald and Goofy in his games and you couldn't do his character justice without representing his friendship with them.

And Donald and Goofy are the real problem, because you're be negotiating two of the most iconic Disney characters for what would be a small cameo in a move/final smash and I'd wager? The cost? Still massive.

Sora just isn't worth it as popular as he is, because the budget for him alone would probably be huge.

There's just no way to avoid talking to Disney if they want to add Sora to Smash Bros. And Disney is stingy as **** when it comes to their properties, so I could honestly see Disney not even bothering with negotiations and just flat-out saying "No, we won't allow it".

 

[Tree Gelbman]

While the phrase itself doesn't really make sense, I believe it's a useful term that does make sense (even if there's no such thing as a 4th party.)

4th party is basically not just outside of the company but outside of the medium entirely.

Characters from things like movies, books, etc; that have nothing to do with video games. I think we can, however, safely say we will never get 4th party representation in Smash... ever. Let alone a character.

Nah. Those are all 3rd party. It's simply a case of Nintendo working with a company who is not owned by them to acquire a character.

First Party: Nintendo IP
Second Party: An IP that is from a company Nintendo owns. Like Pokemon Company.
Third Party: Anyone else in any medium.

Even public domain characters like Dracula, Zorro, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood wouldn't fall under a 4th Party moniker.

 

[Deleted member]

4th Party is not a thing.

4th Party doesn't even make sense. How is something 4th party? I wish someone could explain the logic behind the word ''4th party".

I've been asking that for years.

I blame Super Smash Bros. Crusade for coining the term.

 

[Lyndis_]

Nah. Those are all 3rd party. It's simply a case of Nintendo working with a company who is not owned by them to acquire a character.

First Party: Nintendo IP
Second Party: An IP that is from a company Nintendo owns. Like Pokemon Company.
Third Party: Anyone else in any medium.

Even public domain characters like Dracula, Zorro, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood wouldn't fall under a 4th Party moniker.

I think you may have just missed the point of what I was saying.

I know it's not a real legal term, I'm explaining the use of the phrase in regards to talking about Smash speculation. To differentiate characters like Rayman and characters that aren't even in video games at all, or at least, aren't generally associated with them.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think you may have just missed the point of what I was saying.

I know it's not a real legal term, I'm explaining the use of the phrase in regards to talking about Smash speculation.

It still makes for a silly thing to say. It's literally the strangest thing people say in this fan base that was coined by a fan.

I mean first, second, and third party aren't even an entertainment industry exclusive those terms literally just refer to the first person, second person, third person thing in English/Grammar.

As in they are literally just spun-off from those grammatical rules.

 

[Lyndis_]

It still makes for a silly thing to say. It's literally the strangest thing people say in this fan base that was coined by a fan.

I mean first, second, and third party aren't even an entertainment industry exclusive those terms literally just refer to the first person, second person, third person thing in English/Grammar.

As in they are literally just spun-off from those grammatical rules.

I think you're just looking too deep into the semantics of it rather than it's actual usage... I even said in my original post that it doesn't make sense for the reasons you're just mentioning back to me.

I didn't coin the term, don't look at me.

 

[colder_than_ice]

There's just no way to avoid talking to Disney if they want to add Sora to Smash Bros. And Disney is stingy as **** when it comes to their properties, so I could honestly see Disney not even bothering with negotiations and just flat-out saying "No, we won't allow it".

Not defending Sora’s chances, but we did get Wreck-it-Ralph in Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed. Disney’s not entirely against crossovers.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

There's just no way to avoid talking to Disney if they want to add Sora to Smash Bros. And Disney is stingy as **** when it comes to their properties, so I could honestly see Disney not even bothering with negotiations and just flat-out saying "No, we won't allow it".

Yup. If I recall correctly Dissida exists purely as the Final Fantasy fighting game because original it was suppose to be a Kingdom Hearts fighting game and Disney straight up just said ''Nope. Won't allow it. Not today or any day."

So if they don't want their characters fighting each other in that game. I doubt they want them fighting anyone else's game either.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not defending Sora’s chances, but we did get Wreck-it-Ralph in Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed. Disney’s not entirely against crossovers.

I think you're worried about the wrong company.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

What, Splatoon's Inklings weren't a shoo-in? They were pretty obvious right from the start with them being successful

"At this point", as in after the Inkling reveal

 

[Hinata]

The fact that there's no shoo-ins make things fun, though. Now we can't look at a character and be like "oh yeah, of course they're getting in, there's no point even speculating". It's all just "possibilities" from here.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Nah. Those are all 3rd party. It's simply a case of Nintendo working with a company who is not owned by them to acquire a character.

First Party: Nintendo IP
Second Party: An IP that is from a company Nintendo owns. Like Pokemon Company.
Third Party: Anyone else in any medium.

Even public domain characters like Dracula, Zorro, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood wouldn't fall under a 4th Party moniker.

Technically, yes, but the 4th Party moniker just makes for an easy way to distinguish non-video game characters.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Technically, yes, but the 4th Party moniker just makes for an easy way to distinguish non-video game characters.

Just say non video game characters it makes you sound so much more intelligent. Also 9 times out of 10 the person you're talking to is going to know if that character is from a game, movie, book, TV show, etc.

Especially with the majority of the characters that are asked for in this fanbase that aren't primarily from video games.

There's literally NO reason for the term. It exists to make you sound like you have no clue what you're talking about because it was most likely created by someone who had no idea what they were talking about.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So since Sora and Disney is the latest topic right now. I could give some potential credence on whether it increases or decreases Sora's chances.

So I play the mobile game Final Fantasy Record Keeper. It's more or less uses the classic FF Active turn based combat system. Unlike other games where the characters are the gacha which you can recruit day one on either the current event they're in, or with a thing called a Hero Lode which you can get in any event. Their initial max level is 50 but Memory Crystals can be used to raise their level max(Mc1 goes to 65, MC2 to 80, MC3 to 99) The weapons and armor characters use are in the gacha instead. They grant Special techniques called Soul Breaks. There are many different types

In February, it was announced that Kingdom Hearts X and FFRK were having a collab, with Sora and Riku being recruitable. Now here comes the funny part. Nearly every single KH thing had a ©Disney under it and I mean 99% EVERYTHING! So much it became a meme. Now as I said if you missed a character you can get them with a hero lode which you can get one in an event. Sora and Riku don't get one, which means YOU HAVE to get them AND their Memory Crystals in the event or you can't get them EVER, until the next KH event. Same with the relics. There's a general pool of relics in the game and every event's two banners add some new relics in the general pool. KH relics however were limited and were gone when the event ended until another KH event would happen.

So yeah, I'm not so confident on Sora's chances in Smash with how Disney became stingy when it came to Sora and Riku in FFRK.

 

[kylexv]

I just want another character like . One that collectively blows the entire internet's minds.
I'm the type a guy who thinks super unexpected characters (including retro characters) are super hilarious and, most of the time, fun to play.

 

[MrReyes96]

I was thinking, splatoon is extremely popular, especially in japan. It’s nintendo biggest new IP In a long time. Are we underestimating the potential for more than one rep?
Callie, Marie, Octolings, DJ Octavio?
Callie and Marie especially because of how iconic they’ve been
We don’t know how inkling plays yet but there are a lot of weapons in splatoon, and we know both of them are capable secret agents that could use different weapon types.
Pearl and Marina could be featured on a stage or take the assist trophy role that many people assume would go to them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think Mewtwo in Smash is a villain considering he is portrayed as an edgy character with no feelings, has darkness powers and was in the Event 51 of Melee.

That may be the case during Melee's time, but nowadays, Mewtwo feels more neutral than evil.

Wario was evil in SSE and even had that trophy gun thing that only the villains had.

Ironically, Wario was only turning fighters into trophies for his own selfish reasons. Despite his actions in the Subspace Emissary though, Wario has spent more time playing the anti-hero role; even though he's not a nice guy, Wario will go so far as to save an entire kingdom if it means getting his hands on some treasure.

Also, based on his spin-off appearances, Wario has spent more time going up against Bowser.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Fourth party is a completely valid term. Is it made up? Yes. So are first party, second party, and third party.

All words and terms are made up, that's how language works. New words and terms are always being coined.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Splatoon as it is now as an IP doesn't scream more than one rep. Most of the core gameplay and representing it can be told through the Inklings alone. Callie, Marie, Pearl and Marina are all popular, but I'm not really sure what their movesets would even be.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Just say non video game characters it makes you sound so much more intelligent. Also 9 times out of 10 the person you're talking to is going to know if that character is from a game, movie, book, TV show, etc.

Especially with the majority of the characters that are asked for in this fanbase that aren't primarily from video games.

There's literally NO reason for the term. It exists to make you sound like you have no clue what you're talking about because it was most likely created by someone who had no idea what they were talking about.

Has nothing to do with sounding smart, it's just a handy term that evolved. Not sure why you're being a jerk about this...

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Fourth party is a completely valid term. Is it made up? Yes. So are first party, second party, and third party.

All words and terms are made up, that's how language works. New words and terms are always being coined.

Fourth party is not valid, never will be valid, it has literally NO meaning. It has no impact like first, second, or third party either.

If you walked into a business meeting to discuss legal rights with a company and said ''4th party" you would be laughed at and you know why?

It's meaning is already present in the term ''third party."

It is legit just something a dumb person said once on the internet and it caught on because stupidity spreads like wild fire.

Ya'll trying to jump through hoops to keep this dumb ass word alive is giving me a headache.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Fourth party is not valid, never will be valid, it has literally NO meaning. It has no impact like first, second, or third party either. If you walked into a business meeting to discuss legal rights with a company you would be laughed at and you know why?

It's meaning is already present in the term ''third party."

It is legit just something a dumb person said once on the internet and it caught on because stupidity spreads like wild fire.

Ya'll trying to jump through hoops to keep this dumb *** word alive is giving me a head ache.

Literally every word you just typed out was made up at some point in history.

Ain't ain't a word but so many people used it that it's now listed in the dictionary.

I don't know why you're so hung up over this, we're discussing characters in a video game, not trading stocks in monkey suits.

 

[Deleted member]

Personal Opinion: I'd rather lose all Third Parties in Smash than to have any Non-Video Game Third Party character as a playable character. Im serious.

Hopefully, that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Edit: Changed the term from "hot take" to "personal opinion" because i realized "Hot Take" doesn't mean what i thought it would mean (and before you ask the term itself is Safe for Work).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Alright, let's calm down. This is starting to sound close to flaming others.

Likewise, semantic derails of sorts really don't help with anything. If you know what they mean, that's good enough.

 

[Deleted member]

I am sure the roster was decided in 2016. It would be really cool to have Solageo and Lunala as Pokéball Pokémon.

What would they do?

You describe it here!

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Fourth party is a completely valid term. Is it made up? Yes. So are first party, second party, and third party.

All words and terms are made up, that's how language works. New words and terms are always being coined.

I was just about to say this before I read this.

Fourth party is not valid, never will be valid, it has literally NO meaning. It has no impact like first, second, or third party either.

If you walked into a business meeting to discuss legal rights with a company and said ''4th party" you would be laughed at and you know why?

It's meaning is already present in the term ''third party."

It is legit just something a dumb person said once on the internet and it caught on because stupidity spreads like wild fire.

Ya'll trying to jump through hoops to keep this dumb *** word alive is giving me a headache.

Sorry, Webster, but language is an ever changing device of communication that molds to however people decide to use it. Of course there's a "correct" way to state things, but if people didn't push those boundaries to better fit what they're trying to express, language never develops. "4th Party" may not have originally meant anything, but it has certainly developed a meaning within Smash discussion.


EDIT: Oh shoot, don't hurt me mods. I typed this before I saw the post.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Literally every word you just typed out was made up at some point in history.

Ain't ain't a word but so many people used it that it's now listed in the dictionary.

I don't know why you're so hung up over this, we're discussing characters in a video game, not trading stocks in monkey suits.

Some word gets added to the dictionary.

4th Party is not one you should. To literally say every word is made up is true.

But most of the added words that get put forth into the lexicon of the English language at least make sense or shorten a prior word like ''Bae' does for ''Baby".

4th party does not.

And why? Because 4th party implies that there are more beings to deal with than a third party. As if there are not only two individuals to deal with in the business matter. It's implying there are three or more. And that's not true of any character.

And legit that's just silly. Because even in a case of a shared rights character like say Sora from Kingdom Hearts. They'd still consider him a third party even with Square and Disney both involved.

Again first party, second party, third party are spun off of first person, second person, third person.

I'm trying to teach you guys why you shouldn't be saying this word, but none of you actually seem to understand why it's nothing less than a silly term that should be left in the dust.

Alright, let's calm down. This is starting to sound close to flaming others.

Likewise, semantic derails of sorts really don't help with anything. If you know what they mean, that's good enough.

Sorry, saw this post after typing my last one. It's dropped.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Fourth party is a completely valid term. Is it made up? Yes. So are first party, second party, and third party.

All words and terms are made up, that's how language works. New words and terms are always being coined.

Pretty much no one uses fourth party and that's the problem.

Just because all words are made up, doesn't mean all made up words are "valid".

 

[PixelSun]

Sorry, Webster, but language is an ever changing device of communication that molds to however people decide to use it. Of course there's a "correct" way to state things, but if people didn't push those boundaries to better fit what they're trying to express, language never develops. "4th Party" may not have originally meant anything, but it has certainly developed a meaning within Smash discussion.

You probably said the meaning in previous pages but... what's 4th party? could you give me an example of a 4th party character (in case there is one)?

 

[Polan]

Regarding Sora, I wouldn't really rule him out. Nintendo and Disney have an amiable relationship and if Nintendo really feels that Sora would bring the hype (which he absolutely will) then they'll negotiate for him. Now Mickey, Donald and Goofy might be trickier to get but I imagine if they are only confined to a Final Smash and a victory screen, then Disney won't complain as much. Disney only gets difficult if their characters are getting beat up.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I think Sora has a shot since Nintendo and Disney was worked together before for Wreck it Ralph. If Disney was so against video game companies, KH wouldn't even exist.

 

[A Distant Demon]

You probably said the meaning in previous pages but... what's 4th party? could you give me an example of a 4th party character (in case there is one)?

non-video game characters. EX Goku or Mickey Mouse would be "4th party"




Sora should be a damn frontrunner. Popular as hell, moveset potential, long history of Nintendo games, relevant, iconic (not Cloud/Sonic/Pac man tier but shhh), and hell he's even from a Japanese company (sort of). The guy has everything.

But Disney just gets in the way because they're crazy. Pisses me the hell off.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I don't expect Sora, or even want him honestly. However, it was made very clear in Smash 4 that Smash Bros can move mountains. We all thought a Final Fantasy character was impossible because Square Enix wouldn't bend enough to allow a character, but in the interview with Sakurai and the Nomura, Nomura said "it was an opportunity for Cloud to be in Smash, how could I pass that up?"

SE is NOT Disney nor are they representative of Disney's thoughts on the prospect of Sora in Smash, however I do think that Nomura's statement on Cloud's opportunity to be in Smash shows how powerful Smash can be. If Sakurai actually wants Sora, he might be able to work some magic.

 

[N3ON]

Duck Hunt Dog didn't literally make me go "what the ****"

Why are there no mirrors present in most mirror matches?

What are Mewtwo, Roy, Dixie, etc "forbidden" from doing? Being playable?

When a character gets Luigified, they don't become more like Luigi. Unless it's Luigi.

When someone is making excuses, I don't actually have a problem playing against someone named John.

If Meta-Knight broke Brawl, how come I can still play the game?

If a character does a sex kick, that doesn't... actually... never mind.

We drawing the line at 4th party now?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

non-video game characters. EX Goku or Mickey Mouse would be "4th party"

Does ROB fit the bill in a sense?

Honestly, just non-video game characters is enough. Would Super Man (comic) be viewed as fourth party from the One Piece (manga) circle?

But Disney just gets in the way because they're crazy. Pisses me the hell off.

When did they do that? Did Disney shut down Sora before?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Sales wise Kingdom hearts isn't even close to Final fantasy, dragon quest or tomb raider anyway so it's probably not even worth adding sora considering the mess it would cause with disney anyway. If another square enix character gets in chances are it's another FF character or a DQ character. Lara is doubtful as from what I know tomb raider isn't very big in japan, although I'm not entirely sure about that tbh. Plus the guns could be an issue.

 

[New_Dumal]

I know what you must feel with the term "fourth party" because I'm really pissed with 2.5D(2 and half dimension) concept.
If you can't move in the three dimensions, you're into a 2D game.
Yes, there's game 2D with "fake-dept" design and games with games with models 3D but movement 2D...
People should always go for the gameplay perspective, something like "This game is 2D but with 3D models" etc.

I will now say something related to Smash discussion to keep from being warned:
I saw a video in YT where the person defends the "Just Dance" dancer as a character. I found it funny and people would love in the end of the day.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Does ROB fit the bill in a sense?

Honestly, just non-video game characters is enough. Would Super Man (comic) be viewed as fourth party from the One Piece (manga) circle?



When did they do that? Did Disney shut down Sora before?

Just speculation about how crazy over-protective Disney is of its IPs. Stuff like Sora note even managing to get into Disney Infinity and stuff like that. If it isnt Final Fantasy (World Of/the KHUx Record Keeper crossover) he pretty much doesn't leave his own game lol

Sales wise Kingdom hearts isn't even close to Final fantasy, dragon quest or tomb raider anyway so it's probably not even worth adding sora considering the mess it would cause with disney anyway. I

If we both third party inclusions based on sales alone, especially when comparing them to some of the biggest sries ever the pool is going to get absurdly small real fast.

 

[Bowserlick]

I hope the new Smash newcomer is 4th Party terminology.