Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Bowserlick]

Smash has a cool fighting system where the fight changes depending on both opponent's percentages. Combos only work at certain times. It really looks and feels like an actual fight. Chain grabs really break the mold and not in a good way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Chain Grabs are still far better than Infinites. Infinites are easily bannable in general. But Brawl's lack of real combos due to the hitstun more or less forced Infinites to stay so some could actually win.

There's really nothing wrong with Chain Grabs either. Maybe some reduction wouldn't be too bad, but removing them all together is unnecessary. 10 in a row would be good.

 

[Opossum]

I know! I'll ask Rarity!

Just as a funfact. The fella who made the pony.mov videos actually did fanart of (not surprisingly) the Villager, based on the psycho Villager meme.
[Collapse=Not sure if squeamish people would like it, so fair warning. It's not too bad, though ]

[/Collapse]




See? You can relate everything to Smash Bros.

 

[Tacblack]

Smash has a cool fighting system where the fight changes depending on both opponent's percentages. Combos only work at certain times. It really looks and feels like an actual fight. Chain grabs really break the mold and not in a good way.

I couldn't agree any more. Chain grabs really sway things quickly. I'd rather want a game that is based off situational combos as opposed to whoever grabs first (not implying the entire game is entirely based off chain grabs; however they do play big role).

 

[Demna]

I couldn't agree any more. Chain grabs really sway things quickly. I'd rather want a game that is based off situational combos as opposed to whoever grabs first (not implying the entire game is entirely based off chain grabs; however they do play big role).

Chaingrabs (Talking mostly about Iceclimbers since they're the only character who's able to Zero to Death Chaingrab you) are really hard to pull off completely. The feeling that you receive when you chaingrab a character from Zero to death is the definition of awesomeness. It's true that sometimes it's unfair for your opponent, but you can always plan a specific strategy to not get grabbed. Most people plan to separate Nana from Popo and ultimately gimp Nana. Everything has a solution

 

[Big-Cat]

Smash chain grabs are stupid. No grab breaks and able to grab in hitstun? What malarkey is this?

 

[Jaedrik]

Just don't get grabbed.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think if the same grab is performed within a couple seconds either the animation can become a push or a simple regular A move.

Then you can have grabs with high stun or set knockback that can lead to more organic combos and not just simply back into itself.

 

[HylianHero]

Awesome. I've been looking for a solid forum about Smash! So excited to actually see it being put together, I was pretty worried Brawl was going to be the last one.

 

[Banjodorf]

Awesome. I've been looking for a solid forum about Smash! So excited to actually see it being put together, I was pretty worried Brawl was going to be the last one.

Greetings! Welcome to the best forum on the net! We have....this!

So yeah. Also this Fantastic Fighting Fraters or whatever game is all the rage these days...

 

[Bowserlick]

Hi there HylianHero. Welcome to the forums. I see you chose Link as your avatar. Your already onto a good start.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Welcome, HylianHero.

I hope you enjoy it here. We have lots of Boomerangs too.

 

[Tacblack]

Chaingrabs (Talking mostly about Iceclimbers since they're the only character who's able to Zero to Death Chaingrab you) are really hard to pull off completely. The feeling that you receive when you chaingrab a character from Zero to death is the definition of awesomeness. It's true that sometimes it's unfair for your opponent, but you can always plan a specific strategy to not get grabbed. Most people plan to separate Nana from Popo and ultimately gimp Nana. Everything has a solution

Oh yeah! I hope I didn't come off like I thought that doing chain grabs doesn't take any skill at all. I just wish that they were at least nerfed just a bit is all. I would just prefer if chaingrabs didn't exist or existed to a minimal extent.

 

[Luco]

Chaingrabs (Talking mostly about Iceclimbers since they're the only character who's able to Zero to Death Chaingrab you) are really hard to pull off completely. The feeling that you receive when you chaingrab a character from Zero to death is the definition of awesomeness. It's true that sometimes it's unfair for your opponent, but you can always plan a specific strategy to not get grabbed. Most people plan to separate Nana from Popo and ultimately gimp Nana. Everything has a solution

I actually kind of agree with you.

Obviously ICs have the ability to CG every single character in the cast. But look at brawl with an eye for detail and this becomes much more complex. First of all, the ice climbers can only perform the CG when together. Separate them and kill nana and Popo can only CG you to about 53% (I think, from memory?), or if you're one of the spacies (can't remember which) he can take you to 90 but that's only one character so we have an outlier. Already we've established that the climbers are a glass cannon. Kill nana and the ICs are literally reduced to low tier for the rest of that stock. I'm not kidding.

Next you have to realise, the CG varies with each character. With Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Olimar and such, the button pressing is almost instantaneous (though still requires timing) but for characters like Ganondorf and Dedede, the CG requires such ridiculous timing that it's very likely the ICs will mess up (I should know because I can do the CG and it's freakin' hard to do it consistently to kill range on someone like Snake). On some characters, such as Lucas and Ness, the CG becomes almost ridiculously hard. This is due to the awkward weight class of the PSI kids which makes the timing for the CG MUCH harder than against anyone else, thus Lucas is considered the hardest character for the ICs to CG.

Then you take into account items. Bombs, grenades, bananas, anything... characters like these can make CGing very hard for the ICs by itself and is one of the primary reasons characters like Snake have an even MU with them. Imagine being ICs and versing an Olimar. He's thrown all of his pikmin at you, 2 of which are whites, and you've started the CG. Of course you'll kill him, but by the time you do it'll take one hit from him next stock to reset the situation. Would you prefer to kill him but risk yourself heavily early on next stock or would you take a moment to push him away to get the pikmin off to attempt to get the grab again? I suppose that's up to you.

Last of all you have to think about aerial based characters and characters with a lot of mobility. Of course it'll be harder for a ganondorf to run away from an ICs but someone like Peach can use her aerial prowess to find a safer way to land, then repeat the process. Same with someone like Meta Knight. The ICs want you on the ground but if you can stay in the air then what the heck are they gonna do? Uair you? For 13% damage? Ok. Now what? You can go ahead and poke at them all day until you it them and separate them. Just play super safe. There's actual matches where people have done this on youtube. It's hard but doable.

There's more that contributes to this, such as nerves and mashing and such... basically, the ICs aren't as overpowered as people like to think they are. You can't just reduce it to 'I don't want a game where characters have to compete to get the first grab' and leave it at that because there's so much more involved. Why do you think the ICs are second and not first? Coming up with solutions to try and deal with CGs can mess up other possible aspects of the game, you know? Maybe some LT character would do amazing suddenly because of a good string involving a small Cg that... he now can't do because a grab 'limit' was enforced on him.

Like yeah i'm all for balance but personally I think it's possible for CGs to exist and balance to be had. ICs are actually quite a fun character to play because they teach you how to play safe.

Now, although my argument may sound contrary, I should clarify: Whether or not CGs exist in the next game to me doesn't matter so much as it does the freedom of characters to do what they like. I hate limiting a character severely in any case. MK would easily be nerfed with a few hitbox reductions and less power on some moves and he's suddenly not god tier but still plays like MK. ICs could maybe do what they do in Melee, which is wobbling - it's an infinite (I think?) but it's hard to pull off or something (because the ICs aren't top tier)... like i'm just trying to envision certain other solutions.

Tl:dr I just don't want to change who the ICs are because I love quite a bit of how they play. The issue with nerfing them is that you could end up unnecessarily nerfing someone else, you know?

 

[Aidebit]

If IC's were based more on grab combos and Popo was buffed, then they'd balance out.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Chain Grabs are still far better than Infinites. Infinites are easily bannable in general. But Brawl's lack of real combos due to the hitstun more or less forced Infinites to stay so some could actually win.

There's really nothing wrong with Chain Grabs either. Maybe some reduction wouldn't be too bad, but removing them all together is unnecessary. 10 in a row would be good.

I actually agree with this sentiment, but I'm not against letting infinites remain if they don't make the game unplayable (again, crashing/freezing, corrupting data, that kind of thing). I'll reiterate that I still think that infinites are bad design. With chaingrabs, you at least have a chance to get yourself out; it's difficult, but you can break grabs in Smash. You can also avoid chaingrabs a lot easier than, say, an unblockable set up in MvC 2 that leads to an infinite. Those infinites, on the other hand, you gotta hope that the other guy is gonna **** up.

Honestly, though, I don't think chaingrabs are that degenerative to Smash's competitive meta. A lot of them are character-specific and are at certain percentages only; in Melee, characters like Fox and Falco only have "true" chaingrabs on themselves, and Marth can only chaingrab the Space Animals if they guess the initial DI properly and only to a certain percent (which is probably enough to set up and eliminate a stock anyway). Sheik and Ice Climbers have a strong, grab-centric game; Sheik has a solid chaingrab on a few characters (even then, it's possible to get away if you're on a stage with lower platforms. Simply DI up and away from Sheik when you're at a higher percentage and land on the platform), and has a strong vortex/oki game (also called tech chasing) on the Space Animals. Ice Climbers, well, they can wobble/hand-off/basically do whatever the hell they want to you in a grab---as long as the Ice Climber player is enough of a technical wizard to do it and can land the grab in the first place. You see a pattern in there, right? It's still kinda 50/50 and situational for a lot of this, barring one character (Ice Climbers).

In Brawl, there's a lot of the same of that kind of stuff, but it's definitely more character-specific and centralizing. DDD, for example, can chaingrab 2/3rds of the cast no problem, and can do it to really high percentages. Hell, he can even grab five of those characters indefinitely (standing grab infinite). There are also grab releases, such as on the Mother boys and couple others (I think Wario is one of them? Help me out here, Automatic). Ice Climbers are still Ice Climbers. I'm not necessarily trying to pole-jock Melee by saying this, but there is a lot more of that bull**** extant in Brawl, so I can see where somebody could possibly think that it is "all that people see." I'll go out on a limb and say that top-end Brawl is all about counterpicking characters, thanks to how polarizing it can be at times. Those issues don't really crop up at high levels of play for that game.

Unless, of course, you're up against Ice Climbers on FD in Brawl. Then you're ****ed.

Edit: I also second everything Luco said.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Gargaglione]

Chain Grabs aren't that bad. I usually get out of them around the 3rd or 4th throw. Maybe it's because the people who've done it on me aren't the best at it, but from my experience, they were never game-breaking or anything.

 

[Luco]

In Brawl, there's a lot of the same of that kind of stuff, but it's definitely more character-specific and centralizing. DDD, for example, can chaingrab 2/3rds of the cast no problem, and can do it to really high percentages. Hell, he can even grab five of those characters indefinitely (standing grab infinite). There are also grab releases, such as on the Mother boys and couple others (I think Wario is one of them? Help me out here, Automatic). Ice Climbers are still Ice Climbers. I'm not necessarily trying to pole-jock Melee by saying this, but there is a lot more of that bull**** extant in Brawl, so I can see where somebody could possibly think that it is "all that people see." I'll go out on a limb and say that top-end Brawl is all about counterpicking characters, thanks to how polarizing it can be at times. Those issues don't really crop up at high levels of play for that game.

Unless, of course, you're up against Ice Climbers on FD in Brawl. Then you're ****ed.

Edit: I also second everything Luco said.

Smooth Criminal

There are many different grab releases yep. Mother boys, Wario on an air release (a primary reason for his -2 MU with King Dedede), I think there are some on Squirtle...

Fun fact: Even Meta Knight gets CGed by someone other than ICs. It's not an infinite but it's sure as heck helpful for this character. Bonus points if you can guess which character. :D

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu?

 

[Demna]

Oh yeah! I hope I didn't come off like I thought that doing chain grabs doesn't take any skill at all. I just wish that they were at least nerfed just a bit is all. I would just prefer if chaingrabs didn't exist or existed to a minimal extent.

Actually it's quite difficult and requires experience because the timing varies from character to character and it's impossible to learn in a week or two. Personally I've invested around 40 hours of training to Chaingrab every character, and I still mess up. Top players who invest 500+ hours still screw up sometimes as well. What does that tell you about the skill requirement ?

I actually kind of agree with you.

Obviously ICs have the ability to CG every single character in the cast. But look at brawl with an eye for detail and this becomes much more complex. First of all, the ice climbers can only perform the CG when together. Separate them and kill nana and Popo can only CG you to about 53% (I think, from memory?), or if you're one of the spacies (can't remember which) he can take you to 90 but that's only one character so we have an outlier. Already we've established that the climbers are a glass cannon. Kill nana and the ICs are literally reduced to low tier for the rest of that stock. I'm not kidding.

Next you have to realise, the CG varies with each character. With Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Olimar and such, the button pressing is almost instantaneous (though still requires timing) but for characters like Ganondorf and Dedede, the CG requires such ridiculous timing that it's very likely the ICs will mess up (I should know because I can do the CG and it's freakin' hard to do it consistently to kill range on someone like Snake). On some characters, such as Lucas and Ness, the CG becomes almost ridiculously hard. This is due to the awkward weight class of the PSI kids which makes the timing for the CG MUCH harder than against anyone else, thus Lucas is considered the hardest character for the ICs to CG.

Then you take into account items. Bombs, grenades, bananas, anything... characters like these can make CGing very hard for the ICs by itself and is one of the primary reasons characters like Snake have an even MU with them. Imagine being ICs and versing an Olimar. He's thrown all of his pikmin at you, 2 of which are whites, and you've started the CG. Of course you'll kill him, but by the time you do it'll take one hit from him next stock to reset the situation. Would you prefer to kill him but risk yourself heavily early on next stock or would you take a moment to push him away to get the pikmin off to attempt to get the grab again? I suppose that's up to you.

Last of all you have to think about aerial based characters and characters with a lot of mobility. Of course it'll be harder for a ganondorf to run away from an ICs but someone like Peach can use her aerial prowess to find a safer way to land, then repeat the process. Same with someone like Meta Knight. The ICs want you on the ground but if you can stay in the air then what the heck are they gonna do? Uair you? For 13% damage? Ok. Now what? You can go ahead and poke at them all day until you it them and separate them. Just play super safe. There's actual matches where people have done this on youtube. It's hard but doable.

There's more that contributes to this, such as nerves and mashing and such... basically, the ICs aren't as overpowered as people like to think they are. You can't just reduce it to 'I don't want a game where characters have to compete to get the first grab' and leave it at that because there's so much more involved. Why do you think the ICs are second and not first? Coming up with solutions to try and deal with CGs can mess up other possible aspects of the game, you know? Maybe some LT character would do amazing suddenly because of a good string involving a small Cg that... he now can't do because a grab 'limit' was enforced on him.

Like yeah i'm all for balance but personally I think it's possible for CGs to exist and balance to be had. ICs are actually quite a fun character to play because they teach you how to play safe.

Now, although my argument may sound contrary, I should clarify: Whether or not CGs exist in the next game to me doesn't matter so much as it does the freedom of characters to do what they like. I hate limiting a character severely in any case. MK would easily be nerfed with a few hitbox reductions and less power on some moves and he's suddenly not god tier but still plays like MK. ICs could maybe do what they do in Melee, which is wobbling - it's an infinite (I think?) but it's hard to pull off or something (because the ICs aren't top tier)... like i'm just trying to envision certain other solutions.

Tl:dr I just don't want to change who the ICs are because I love quite a bit of how they play. The issue with nerfing them is that you could end up unnecessarily nerfing someone else, you know?

Popo's chaingrab alone usually deals 50%-60% including the forward smash in the end. However, it varies from character to character because some top players can Chaingrab Metaknight with Popo until 90% with upsmash in the end (Since Popo's grab has a great vertical hitbox and can grab Metaknight). It truly does vary from character to character with chaingrabbing. I find Lucas and Ness to be the most difficult, since you need to double Down-throw them, because it's very hard to regrab Ness/Lucas after a Forward-throw. I used to struggle with Snake/Ganondorf/D3 due to their weight, but I found a great way to deal with them called Hobbling. Which is basically backthrowing them to footstool from Nana and Iceblock, regrab pummel and repeat. I made a whole thread about the chaingrabbing and what specific chaingrab rotation should you perform on a specific character(s), check it out : http://smashboards.com/threads/iceclimbers-chaingrab-tips.336216/

I completely agree with aerial character such as Metaknight, Peach, and Jigglypuff. It's quite difficult to land a grab on each of them yet alone to perform a zero-to-death chaingrab. It does require an enormous amount or training and experience.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's still very gay though.

 

[Bowserlick]

Ice Climbers may have trouble being implemented on the 3DS so Nana will have to sit on Popo's shoulders basically making them one character with no desyncing allowed.

 

[Demna]

There is an important aspect that I forget to include; tripping. a good Iceclimber will advocate a tripless chaingrabs, where he tries not to back-throw to Nana since she might trip as a result, and of course never dash when grabbing. The ideal chaingrab now is Down-throw to Down-throw since it has less IASA frames than Forward-throw and doesn't cause any trips.

I think I read an article that the Iceclimber's chaingrab will be nerfed, no absolute proof though.

 

[IsmaR]

What has gotten into you.

I wonder if IsmaR understands me.

I don't think I've ever not gotten you, Oasis.

 

[Oasis_S]

Now I'm trying to think of what I was like back in the R.I.D.L.E.Y. days. I don't think I was a maid back then. At least not as Strong of one as I am now.

 

[IsmaR]

Almost everything I know/learned about you was from Icel, not WoR or R.I.D.L.E.Y., interestingly enough. I figured it went both ways.

 

[Oasis_S]

...y-you mentioned her~

Huh, didn't think you guys talked that much. It's funny though, we were reminiscing the other day about those earlier times~

 

[Aidebit]

There are many different grab releases yep. Mother boys, Wario on an air release (a primary reason for his -2 MU with King Dedede), I think there are some on Squirtle...

Fun fact: Even Meta Knight gets CGed by someone other than ICs. It's not an infinite but it's sure as heck helpful for this character. Bonus points if you can guess which character. :D

Peach, right?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Now I'm trying to think of what I was like back in the R.I.D.L.E.Y. days. I don't think I was a maid back then. At least not as Strong of one as I am now.

I'm fairly certain you had the ridley and sukapon avatar

 

[IsmaR]

I talked to everyone back then. I might as well have been Sterks' personal therapist. What little I did talk with her and Rey seemed invaluable.

And I was in the same situation recently. I miss Miss Lolo.

Edit: And apparently that last post was my 7,000th one.

 

[Oasis_S]

Oh my goodness, Straks. Lol.

Well cool. :3

 

[IsmaR]

I'd be even more surprised if she remembered me. And yeah straks. I did my best to be Dr. Phil for him and Rey. Haven't heard from either in a while. I should probably have let them know I don't use MSN anymore.

ALSO ICE CLIMBER THINGS. I hope they get a new Final Smash. Something along the lines of Ice Car.

 

[Demna]

I don't use MSN anymore.

ALSO ICE CLIMBER THINGS. I hope they get a new Final Smash. Something along the lines of Ice Car.

Who uses MSN now?
The Iceclimbers Final Smash is pretty annoying when your opponent is on the other side of the summit, and the only way to cross over the top is to use your Up-B and only Popo will make it. Sometimes this mechanic got my Popo to be wrecked by my opponent.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

I like Iceberg. It's silly.
CRRRRSSSSHHHH.

You'd think the Ice Climbers would get a remake or even a new game by now, considering the redesigned Ice Climber content in Brawl and Melee.

 

[Oasis_S]

She does remember you, actually, but I'm not sure you'd like for what reason, lol. She was actually the one that brought you up. Not that she said anything bad about you, but I do think maybe she had the wrong impression of you. I dunno.

 

[Demna]

I like Iceberg. It's silly.
CRRRRSSSSHHHH.

You'd think the Ice Climbers would get a remake or even a new game by now, considering the redesigned Ice Climber content in Brawl and Melee.

When did the latest game of Iceclimbers got released?

 

[IsmaR]

That's...unexpected. tbh I got that vibe, but didn't want to say anything (at the time) nor did I really try, especially once I died. And try me, I get remembered for a plethora of otherwise embarrassing or incredibly

reasons. Take it all in good sport and consider most of them compliments.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Yo. Been gone for a week [after I just refound my account for like 3 days of posting haha so no one will remember me anyways]

Anything exciting been announced? Articles etc?

 

[FalKoopa]

When did the latest game of Iceclimbers got released?

Wii U Virtual console version. April 26, 2013.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

By the way, is there any way to use the image link without the pic auto-updating the next day?