Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Starphoenix]

Points in favor of the rumor being true:
-It guessed Miss Fit in combination with another somewhat unlikely pick.

Points against the rumor being true:
-At least 50% of the rumor was demonstrably false, as we did not get the promised 3 more characters at the end of E3.

At this point, there is no reason to continue treating this rumor as confirmation of Pac-Man, Mii, and Little Mac. All three are very likely newcomers to begin with, anyways.

No, what he said was not false. He never claimed they'd be shown at E3 only that he was tipped off about their E3 reveals. Everyone, including myself, inferred that from his post because he listed all six. Considering each character is broken up into their own pack it would not surprise me if Nintendo opted to spread the other three out instead of revealing them all at once. Wait until next week.

@Star: I could be wrong, but I'm starting to think that the limitations that he's talking about aren't space limitations, but mechanical limitations. He could very well be considering cutting Ice Climbers and Olimar, due to the apparent difficulty that they would give the 3DS. THAT would be tragic.

Yes, that is a very real possibility. Considering the context of what he was addressing that makes sense, but I don't think he'll cut them as much as their 3DS incarnations will be modified. Think of how Kirby plucks Pikmin from the ground and immidiately throws them when he copies Olimar. I can see something like that for Olimar in a worst case scenario. Instead of having the Pikmin follow him he'll simply throw them one at a time.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't see Nintendo allowing him to cut the only Pikmin rep with a new Pikmin game coming out for the system.

 

[Hello.]

The surprising part of his response is not actually about the 3DS' limitations, for we have already known that for months now by Sakurai, but what is interesting is Sakurai is being less definitive on whether or not there will be cuts. The key word in the first sentence is "may." The second part worth noting is that he is working as hard as he can to include as many characters as possible. Not only does this eliminate the theory that he is setting a cap on the amount of characters but it also indicates that he wants to keep as many of the characters from Brawl as he can. Trust me, no matter how badly we may feel about characters being removed if anyone probably hates it more it is Sakurai. If he is cognizant enough to remove tripping due to our loathing then I can guarantee you he can see how many people want to hold onto the characters from Brawl.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I was going to post something similar but I just couldn't find the words.

 

[TheTuninator]

No, what he said was not false. He never claimed they'd be shown at E3 only that he was tipped off about their E3 reveals. Everyone, including myself, inferred that from his post because he listed all six. Considering each character is broken up into their own pack it would not surprise me if Nintendo opted to spread the other three out instead of revealing them all at once. Wait until next week.

Check the Gematsu guy's post in the leak thread (emphasis mine).

But yeah, after she was confirmed, I figured I'd share the rest, which my source told me would appear at E3, barring impromptu change.

What he's claiming in his neoGAF post is irrelevant. What the source claimed is that all would appear at E3. The source was wrong. "Barring impromptu change" is hardly an adequate defense, as that would be the go-to rear-covering technique for any fake leaker.

 

[Deleted member]

"Barring impromptu change".

 

[Starphoenix]

What he's claiming in his neoGAF post is irrelevant. What the source claimed is that all would appear at E3. The source was wrong. "Barring impromptu change" is hardly an adequate defense, as that would be the go-to rear-covering technique for any fake leaker.

I've seen the exact same thing happen to another credible leaker with Marvel vs. Capcom, so perhaps that is how come it does not bother me.

 

[TheTuninator]

"Barring impromptu change".

I predict that the next reveal will be Mewtwo, barring impromptu change. If I'm wrong, well, I said "barring impromptu change", didn't I?

See how easy that is? Of course, this rumor has much more credibility due to the prediction of WFT, but "barring impromptu change" lends it exactly zero additional credibility.

I've seen the exact same thing happen to another credible leaker with Marvel vs. Capcom, so perhaps that is how come it does not bother me.

Hey, that's fair, and like I said I expect that these characters are quite likely going to end up in the final roster anyways. I just don't see any reason to continue putting any stock in this rumor when we know that the credentials of the leaker were not verified and that he was wrong.

I'm also skeptical that Nintendo would make an "impromptu change" of reveal plans at a conference as big as E3 in regards to not one, not two, but three reps, including one as big as Pac-Man, but that's less quantifiable.

 

[Deleted member]

@Shortie: I could argue why the Mega Man and Pac-Man situations are different, but damn you're right. Back to expecting Pac-Man and Mii...

To add on to what Starphoenix said, I especially want to pay attention to the part of this:

So we're forced into the situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. but we're really working hard in order to include as many characters as possible.

What has me interested here is that he didn't say that "we may need to cut characters if time constraints force it", but that if time constraints gets in the way, they may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. I don't know about most people here, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if time constraints comes up that he will still try to find a work-around to cutting characters. Like reducing emphasis on transformation characters (Pokémon Trainer being gone and Charizard, Squritle and Ivysaur given their own slots, Zelda and Sheik being separated, etc.) could help make the process easier or splitting up the Ice Climbers. Whatever the case is, Sakurai seems hesitant to cutting characters again and would only do so under the absolute last case scenario.

I think in the end, most people would rather have Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur split up than axed altogether. I know I would.

I was planning on making a thread in regards to this issues because of how much drama surrounded it, but I felt this should cover it enough.

 

[---]

Looking back on today's events

Good summary on today's events. Honestly most of this stuff we already assumed and this just serves as a reminder/confirmation (Go us!). With 3DS issues, we're just over-speculating again and putting our own words into Sakurai's mouth. Sounds more than anything that Sakurai himself doesn't completely know.

Just as a guess though, looking at 3DS file sizes among other things (Pokemon X & Y?) seems like it's more about programming issues than file size. EDIT: Hoots ninja'd me on this.

 

[Deleted member]

Your sarcastic example really falls flat.

The source he claims stated that the six would be shown off at E3 barring impromptu change.
We literally got half of the listed characters, two of them being ones no one would have seriously expected (especially the Wii Fit Trainer). There is no coincidence there.

You're claiming one thing that has absolutely no credibility to back up.

 

[TheTuninator]

I'd rather see Ice Climbers cut entirely and replaced with a new rep than see them become a half-hearted attempt at recreating them in an inadequate system.

Pokemon Trainer splits well, and so do Zelda, Sheik, Zamus, etc, but separating the Ice Climbers? You might as well remove them.

If certain characters have to be kneecapped on the 3DS version, I should hope that the WiiU version would feature them at their maximum potential, given that cross-version play is not included.

 

[Starphoenix]

Hey, that's fair, and like I said I expect that these characters are quite likely going to end up in the final roster anyways. I just don't see any reason to continue putting any stock in this rumor when we know that the credentials of the leaker were not verified and that he was wrong.

I'm also skeptical that Nintendo would make an "impromptu change" of reveal plans at a conference as big as E3 in regards to not one, not two, but three reps, including one as big as Pac-Man, but that's less quantifiable.

Honestly I don't care at the end of the day. I don't like Mii or Pac-Man, and my support of Little Mac is tepid at best. Just give me Mewtwo.

What has me interested here is that he didn't say that "we may need to cut characters if time constraints force it", but that if time constraints gets in the way, they may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. I don't know about most people here, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if time constraints comes up that he will still try to find a work-around to cutting characters. Like reducing emphasis on transformation characters (Pokémon Trainer being gone and Charizard, Squritle and Ivysaur given their own slots, Zelda and Sheik being separated, etc.) could help make the process easier or splitting up the Ice Climbers. Whatever the case is, Sakurai seems hesitant to cutting characters again and would only do so under the absolute last case scenario.

I think in the end, most people would rather have Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur split up than axed altogether. I know I would.

I was planning on making a thread in regards to this issues because of how much drama surrounded it, but I felt this should cover it enough.

Where has it been determined that transformation characters are causing mechanical problems? I've been at work so perhaps I missed something.

 

[Deleted member]

@TheTuninator: Yeah, it's for this reason why I doubt they'll split up the Ice Climbers, just was throwing it out there. However, there is a real chance that the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon will be split, as well as the split of Zelda and Sheik along with Samus and Zero Suit Samus.

I still maintain that while cuts will probably happen, they will be minimal and will probably just be a combination of Snake, Sonic and Toon Link. Lucario and Ike could go, but I strongly doubt they will because unlike Snake, Sonic and Toon Link, they wouldn't go for any reason other than time constraints and with Namco helping, time constraints that requires cuts could very well be avoided, especially if Sakurai can find workarounds.

 

[TheTuninator]

Your sarcastic example really falls flat.

The source he claims stated that the six would be shown off at E3 barring impromptu change.
We literally got half of the listed characters, two of them being ones no one would have seriously expected (especially the Wii Fit Trainer). There is no coincidence there.

The corollary is that he got half of the predictions wrong, and while almost nobody would have predicted Wii Fit Trainer and Villager together, out of a fanbase numbering in the tens of millions, somebody certainly could have. Several posters here claimed to have expected something for Wii Fit following the reveal. Furthering this point is the fact that as far as we know the source did not say "Villager and Mega Man for sure, and the others subject to impromptu change", but rather just rattled off six characters.

Like I said, I think all three have good chances for inclusion, and that rumor may indeed eventually prove legitimate. We just shouldn't treat this rumor as a guarantee of their inclusion, that's all. The source was not verified, the source was not specific regarding the release timetable, and the source was wrong about 50% of the characters, which means that right now we need to treat it as fake until proven otherwise.

You're claiming one thing that has absolutely no credibility to back up.

Agreed. However, my point there is that saying "barring impromptu change" adds absolutely no validity to any leak, because it's the most basic defense for a fake leak you could find as there's no way to disprove it.

For my money, unless the source found out about the planned E3 reps a month or two out, which is certainly possible, last-minute impromptu changes in the planned announcements for that many reps at such a major conference seem very unlikely.

 

[Starphoenix]

I'd really hate to lose Ice Climbers. They've actually been really good to me in Brawl. One interesting thought is if for some reason the Ice Climbers are removed, I wonder if Sakurai will find another character or return to an old idea to fill the token NES retro spot that Ice Climbers supposedly represent.

 

[TheTuninator]

I'd really hate to lose Ice Climbers. They've actually been really good to me in Brawl. One interesting thought though. If for some reason the Ice Climbers are removed, I wonder if Sakurai will find another character or return to an old idea to fill the token NES retro spot that Ice Climbers supposedly represent.

Ice Climbers are so unique that I can't imagine Sakurai doing anything less than fighting tooth and nail to keep them in. Indeed, he already seems to be doing just that by considering a delay in the launch of the 3DS version to allow for adequate development time.

At this point, I really wish that they hadn't committed to equal roster sizes. In the absence of true cross-version multiplayer, there's no real need to ensure exact accuracy between rosters. The customization they keep talking about would be problematic, but I am sure Sakurai can come up with a good way to skirt that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You know, come to think of it, there probably wasn't an update today because Sakurai has most likely been on a plane back to Japan all day. From California to Japan it is about a 12 hour flight and that doesn't include going through all the baggage/security checks as we the commutes to and from the airports. That being said, there's a good chance we won't see anything again until Monday.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't believe in splits.

If there's going to be an issue in regards to transformation characters work, then perhaps they would transform in the Wii U version, but stay in one form for 3DS.
Zelda: Sheik is unavailable in the 3DS version.
Samus: Zero Suit Samus is unavailable in the 3DS version.
Pokémon Trainer: Only uses Charizard in the 3DS version (though Squirtle and Ivysaur still pop out for Triple Finish).

Bear in mind that regardless of being different forms and counting as separate characters within data, they are still aspects of a singular entity (Zelda, Samus, Pokémon Trainer).
Take away those aspects, and while the characters are drastically different, they are still the same character.

Or if that doesn't work out, just make them unable to switch mid-game and select which state you want to be in for the match for the 3DS version only. That way, nothing is lost and the Wii U version can keep the characters as they were intended to be.

As for Ice Climbers, I see two potential paths if they can't work as they did outside of cutting them:

a. Change their gimmick. As much as the following gimmick is rather lame, Cartoon Network PTE had a strange system in regards to tag-teams (i.e. Billy & Mandy). You controlled both as they were one character instead of you controlling one as the computer follower copies your actions. They were also synchronized together to the point they could NOT be separated. They had specific attacks that used one character, some that used the other, and some that used both at the same time.

b. Make Popo solo in the 3DS version (with Nana as an alternate selection for good measure) and change his stats and moves compared to the Wii U version to make him a viable character on his own.

 

[Deleted member]

Where has it been determined that transformation characters are causing mechanical problems? I've been at work so perhaps I missed something.

Transformation characters are generally more complex characters overall to make (at least when not getting into the likes of third-parties) and the issues sounds more like a mechanical one rather than one of space (because with a 8 GB cart and proper compression done, there's no reason to believe why a early fifties roster including transformation can't happen). Given the outcry surrounding cut characters, I think Sakurai will want to find a workaround to deal with this should time constraints be an issue with keeping veterans. Splitting up Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, while would lose the unique aspect of the Trainer, would be much less complex to work with and as such, less time overall. Normally, I wouldn't even see this as a possibility, but Sakurai saying "reducing some characters to a degree" if forced out and not outright cut characters if time constraints get in the way makes me thing that this could happen.

 

[Shorts]

Honestly I don't care at the end of the day. I don't like Mii or Pac-Man, and my support of Little Mac is tepid at best. Just give me Mewtwo.

At least you have that. My favorite characters are Medusa, Junior, Krystal, Tingle, Tharja and Zoroark. I'll be REAL lucky if I get one character I actually WANT. Besides Dixie. She has a legitimate chance, and I really want her.

 

[TheTuninator]

A solo Ice Climber would rip out the heart and soul of that character. Cutting them would be a mercy at that point.

 

[Starphoenix]

Ice Climbers are so unique that I can't imagine Sakurai doing anything less than fighting tooth and nail to keep them in. Indeed, he already seems to be doing just that by considering a delay in the launch of the 3DS version to allow for adequate development time.

At this point, I really wish that they hadn't committed to equal roster sizes. In the absence of true cross-version multiplayer, there's no real need to ensure exact accuracy between rosters. The customization they keep talking about would be problematic, but I am sure Sakurai can come up with a good way to skirt that.

Exactly. That is the problem I am having with all of the information coming from Kotaku and IGN. What is the point of keeping the rosters the same if there are no benefits? You're just needlessly handicapping development. For all that you could have the 3DS be it's own entity with some minor unlockables when connected to the Wii U. Unless there is some grand feature he is not telling us about I cannot fathom what would be so special as to justify this approach. I had trouble buying into the dual game approach from the start and everything I am hearing now has only solidified my beliefs.

 

[Shorts]

The Ice Climbers aren't going anywhere as far as I'm concerned. He'll figure it out. If this was a Dixie / Diddy situation they'd been dropped by now.

 

[TheTuninator]

Exactly. That is the problem I am having with all of the information coming from Kotaku and IGN. What is the point of keeping the rosters the same if there are no benefits? You're just needlessly handicapping development. For all that you could have the 3DS be it's own entity with some minor unlockables when connected to the Wii U. Unless there is some grand feature he is not telling us about I cannot fathom what would be so special as to justify this approach. I had trouble buying into the dual game approach from the start and everything I am hearing now has only solidified my beliefs.

Given that the game is very much so still in development, I really hope that Nintendo would be brave enough to eat their words and do the right thing if it turns out that giving each game different total roster sizes would ensure the best possible final product.

 

[Starphoenix]

Transformation characters are generally more complex characters overall to make (at least when not getting into the likes of third-parties) and the issues sounds more like a mechanical one rather than one of space (because with a 8 GB cart and proper compression done, there's no reason to believe why a early fifties roster including transformation can't happen). Given the outcry surrounding cut characters, I think Sakurai will want to find a workaround to deal with this should time constraints be an issue with keeping veterans. Splitting up Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, while would lose the unique aspect of the Trainer, would be much less complex to work with and as such, less time overall. Normally, I wouldn't even see this as a possibility, but Sakurai saying "reducing some characters to a degree" if forced out and not outright cut characters if time constraints get in the way makes me thing that this could happen.

Well I was kind of asking for an official response.

At least you have that. My favorite characters are Medusa, Junior, Krystal, Tingle, Tharja and Zoroark. I'll be REAL lucky if I get one character I actually WANT. Besides Dixie. She has a legitimate chance, and I really want her.

Fortunately for me most of my favorite characters were added in Brawl. With Megaman and Villager confirmed all I need for now is them to return alongside Mewtwo. After that I honestly don't care who gets in, which will make me enjoy those reveals better.

Given that the game is very much so still in development, I really hope that Nintendo would be brave enough to eat their words and do the right thing if it turns out that giving each game different total roster sizes would ensure the best possible final product.

I have a feeling Sakurai would be willing to do that if necessary. Either that or make a replacement for certain characters on the 3DS version.

 

[TheTuninator]

The only character I really want, an AW rep, is unlikely enough that I never really expected them to get in anyway and it will be a pleasant surprise if they do. So I can mostly sit back and enjoy the ride too. It's a good feeling.

 

[Shorts]

Fortunately for me most of my favorite characters were added in Brawl. With Megaman and Villager confirmed all I need for now is them to return alongside Mewtwo. After that I honestly don't care who gets in, which will make me enjoy those reveals better.

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for all characters, and I don't expect ANYTHING, but if we're talking strictly "Who do you wanna see in Smash?" I'll be LUCKY to see Krystal and Dixie.

 

[Deleted member]

Back in mid-2011 when we were just hearing about Smash 4 coming out, Sakurai mentioned that the 3DS version was going to focus more on single-player while the Wii-U version would focus more on multi-player. I think this is where we're going to be seeing the most significant difference in regards to the game. Maybe the 3DS version will have the big story while the Wii-U version has a similar mode to the Adventure Mode in Melee?

But yeah, I was really disappointed to find out that there was no cross-play between both versions. The comments about Sakurai keeping the roster the same doesn't bother me since we all knew it was coming, but with that, you'd think that at least cross-play would be a given.

Cross-play between the Wii and DS has been done by Square Enix (with a Final Fantasy title I can't remember the name of) before. There isn't any reason why it couldn't be done with Smash (and no, each version having different stages is not a justified excuse to me).

 

[Hello.]

It is quite interesting that Sal's source was correct about three of the newcomers, and that Sakurai has somehow "hinted" to the other three in subtle ways. He oddly asked the IGN editor about a third-party character and spoke about Pac-Man (I wouldn't think this would be in Sakurai's nature), talking about customizing (perhaps Mii?) and then, of course, how eerily the ring shown looks like the Punch-Out ring.

Not only that but those "impromptu changes" were those three newcomers not shown but subtly hinted. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, heh.

 

[TheTuninator]

3DS focusing heavily on single-player would be a nightmare, as single-player eats up most of the resources and Nintendo has made the mind-boggling decision to shackle the WiiU's roster to that of the 3DS.

Cross-play between the Wii and DS has been done by Square Enix (with a Final Fantasy title I can't remember the name of) before. There isn't any reason why it couldn't be done with Smash (and no, each version having different stages is not a justified excuse to me).

I'm actually hopeful that the lack of cross-platform play indicates that characters whose gameplay needs to be "dumbed down" for the 3DS version will not be in the WiiU version.

It is quite interesting that Sal's source was correct about three of the newcomers, and that Sakurai has somehow "hinted" to the other three in subtle ways. He oddly asked the IGN editor about a third-party character and spoke about Pac-Man (I wouldn't think this would be in Sakurai's nature), talking about customizing (perhaps Mii?) and then, of course, how eerily the ring shown looks like the Punch-Out ring.

Not only that but those "impromptu changes" were those three newcomers not shown but subtly hinted. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, heh.

Sakurai's talk about customization implies that it extends across the game rather than applying to just one character out of forty or fifty, so I don't think that supports the Mii. The other two points are valid, though.

The customization talk also indicates that Sakurai is against characters being able to change their appearances, though of course this might be different for the Mii since being an avatar is his entire point. I'd call it a wash for any support for the Mii being in, personally.

 

[Starphoenix]

The only character I really want, an AW rep, is unlikely enough that I never really expected them to get in anyway and it will be a pleasant surprise if they do. So I can mostly sit back and enjoy the ride too. It's a good feeling.

Supposedly Intelligent Systems is possibly working on an Advance Wars sequel, so you never know.You never know, if Solid Snake gets the boot its possible he could use Snake's moveset as the basis for a character. Doubt it, but stranger things have happened this week.

 

[TheTuninator]

Supposedly Intelligent Systems is possibly working on an Advance Wars sequel, so you never know.You never know, if Solid Snake gets the boot its possible he could use Snake's moveset as the basis for a character. Doubt it, but stranger things have happened this week.

Yeah, I figure that we maybe get an AW rep if the hinted-at new game is real, and definitely not otherwise. I'd settle for a better Assist Trophy, honestly. Give me some COs.

 

[Starphoenix]

Saw this on Miiverse:

Here's the artwork: Wii Fit Trainer Weighs in. The Tree Pose.
The person in red, his hands aren't reaching all the way.

Spoiler

Next week we'll get to see how Sakurai is going to handle these Miiverse daily posts after E3. Don't really expect much more then recycling through some of the websites snapshots.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't care who gets cut, I just want more newcomers. If I wanted to play as the characters who might be cut from SSB4 again, I can simply play Melee or Brawl. I am just happy that SSB4 isn't going to have a conservative roster filled with all of Brawl characters plus the Top 10 from Shortie's countless polls.

 

[Deleted member]

Well I was kind of asking for an official response.

Unfortunately I don't. However, I find it hard to correlate this:

So we're forced into the situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. but we're really working hard in order to include as many characters as possible.

...with saying that he will have to cut characters due to time constraints. Not saying that cuts due to time constraints can't happen (although I find it much less likely that time constraints will be an issue), but I think he might be implying something other than cutting characters here should time constraints come up.

 

[Starphoenix]

I'm not sure how many Donkey Kong Country fans we have here, but there are some direct feed videos for Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze showing off some of David Wise's music for the game. One of them shows off a new track and man if this doesn't prove why we wanted him to do the music I don't know what will.

http://youtu.be/FFxS-vGACO0

On a more Smash Bros driven topic, am I the only one getting sick and tired of people calling for R.O.B's head? Out of all of the characters to cut, why do you want to cut a unique character, and a unique series at that? I swear this is Game & Watch in Brawl all over again.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Because ROB was completely out of nowhere and he's not really an "iconic" character. Characters, veterans, of the original smash leading up to Brawl that have been there for a long time are iconic characters of the series now.

ROB doesn't have much going for him to warrant coming back at all.

 

[Popsydoodles]

ROB is staying. The End.

 

[Deleted member]

Because ROB was completely out of nowhere and he's not really an "iconic" character. Characters, veterans, of the original smash leading up to Brawl that have been there for a long time are iconic characters of the series now.

ROB doesn't have much going for him to warrant coming back at all.

I don't see why a character has to be "iconic" in order to get in. We have plenty of non-iconic characters in Smash already such as Ike.

 

[Starphoenix]

Because ROB was completely out of nowhere and he's not really an "iconic" character. Characters, veterans, of the original smash leading up to Brawl that have been there for a long time are iconic characters of the series now.

ROB doesn't have much going for him to warrant coming back at all.

He's a fun and interesting character and was the only robot Super Smash Bros had until Mega Man came along. Plus he is an icon. People said the same crap about Mr. Game and Watch before Brawl. It's like history is repeating itself. And I'm sure people will be saying the same thing about Wii Fit Trainer for Smash 5.