Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Big-Cat]

I think we'll see a Demise costume for Ganondorf.

Come to think of it, that would make Ganondorf the first character to go shirtless in Smash.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Come to think of it, that would make Ganondorf the first character to go shirtless in Smash.

Now that's exactly what we needed.

Also, i'm hoping more for a Toon Ganondorf alt to be considered. WW Ganon is no doubt the best Ganon in the entire series.

 

[Luco]

The funny thing about Meta Knight is that Brawl's game play is the reason for his dominant position. If he remains unchanged, but the game play elements are altered, his tier position may end up getting a nerf, if not a drastic one.

Actually that's true and i've thought about that before. Still, his insane priority could still do with some down-toning, imo.

Weird coming from the guy that mains the two characters that have moves that plain out beat every one of his specials save shuttle loop lol.

And shirtless ganondorf? Erm... I think I could do without it. >_>

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Weird coming from the guy that mains the two characters that have moves that plain out beat every one of his specials save shuttle loop lol.

Lucas' PK Fire's priority is broken, and needs to be toned down.

 

[Luco]

Lucas' PK Fire's priority is broken, and needs to be toned down.

When he's top of the tier list you can say that all you want. :-D

 

[SmashShadow]

Also, i'm hoping more for a Toon Ganondorf alt to be considered. WW Ganon is no doubt the best Ganon in the entire series.

I never even thought of that. They are around the same height and I would be less opposed to that than him getting a slot of his own. I'm not a big fan of a duplicate roster for the Zelda series and don't want the line-up to look like Toon vs Original Link/Zelda/Ganon. One of the main reasons I support Vaati so much.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think we'll see a Demise costume for Ganondorf.

Come to think of it, that would make Ganondorf the first character to go shirtless in Smash.

As long as it's not a mere palette swap, a Demise alternate outfit seems doable for Ganondorf.

 

[Baskerville]

If hackers can do it, there is no excuse.

 

[Sword_kirby777]

If hackers can do it, there is no excuse.

HAHAHA! This is true. ^_^

 

[Orngeblu]

Here's a thought...DON'T GET RID OF TOON LINK! D:< I WANT TO KEEP HIM BECAUSE HE HIS MY MAIN ON BRAWL!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

BBrawl more or less showed the right way to nerf MK within the context of Brawl. Make Mach Tornado a low damage move. The priority etc. is fine, but it shouldn't suck people into it given how polarizing that is against large characters and on stages with ceilings and how ridiculous of an option that move is when it does real damage. Down smash should be a far weaker kill move. For its speed and for the type of character it's on, it's way too good at what it does. It should be hard for MK to score KOs without going off-stage for a gimp, and the main reason that's not true in standard Brawl is because of down smash. Shuttle Loop (grounded) should be far less rewarding on hit as well. It has some of the best range of any attack in the game, invincibility, and is relatively hard to punish (usually you just get a grab, and that requires timing as opposed to something like Dolphin Slash on Marth which eats the opponent's most powerful smash on block easily). That move is just way too good and shuts down the gameplan of characters based on aerial approach; it somehow needs to just be a worse option (we made it really weak on hit; other approaches could work). To be clear aerial Shuttle Loop is mostly fine; MK is really putting himself out there every time he uses it so it being fairly rewarding is reasonable.

Of course, smash 4 will be a different game so MK may require different balancing than he did in Brawl. MK might even just plain not be in smash 4 for that matter; we really don't know. Things like nerfing his recovery are the wrong approach though since you don't want to remove what makes him unique as a character. What you want to do is make his clearly intended weakness (poor KO power) actually exist and remove his ability to just shut down the game plan of other characters. That will result in more diverse and interesting matches involving MK while also making him a lot more balanced with the rest of the cast. Most people who tried to tier BBrawl put MK near the bottom of the top 10 characters so I think our approach empirically worked at least; we didn't ruin him but did make him fair.

 

[FlappyFalco]

I never even thought of that. They are around the same height and I would be less opposed to that than him getting a slot of his own. I'm not a big fan of a duplicate roster for the Zelda series and don't want the line-up to look like Toon vs Original Link/Zelda/Ganon. One of the main reasons I support Vaati so much.

Yes, Toon Ganondorf doesn't deserve a character slot, a costume for Ganondorf is more suitable. Also Ganon is his beast form and Ganondorf is his gerudo form.

But Toon Zelda deserves a spot, she looks different enough and could transform into Tetra and/or Phantom Zelda since there is no Toon Sheik.

@Orngeblu:Agreed.

 

[Luco]

BBrawl more or less showed the right way to nerf MK within the context of Brawl. Make Mach Tornado a low damage move. The priority etc. is fine, but it shouldn't suck people into it given how polarizing that is against large characters and on stages with ceilings and how ridiculous of an option that move is when it does real damage. Down smash should be a far weaker kill move. For its speed and for the type of character it's on, it's way too good at what it does. It should be hard for MK to score KOs without going off-stage for a gimp, and the main reason that's not true in standard Brawl is because of down smash. Shuttle Loop (grounded) should be far less rewarding on hit as well. It has some of the best range of any attack in the game, invincibility, and is relatively hard to punish (usually you just get a grab, and that requires timing as opposed to something like Dolphin Slash on Marth which eats the opponent's most powerful smash on block easily). That move is just way too good and shuts down the gameplan of characters based on aerial approach; it somehow needs to just be a worse option (we made it really weak on hit; other approaches could work). To be clear aerial Shuttle Loop is mostly fine; MK is really putting himself out there every time he uses it so it being fairly rewarding is reasonable.

Of course, smash 4 will be a different game so MK may require different balancing than he did in Brawl. MK might even just plain not be in smash 4 for that matter; we really don't know. Things like nerfing his recovery are the wrong approach though since you don't want to remove what makes him unique as a character. What you want to do is make his clearly intended weakness (poor KO power) actually exist and remove his ability to just shut down the game plan of other characters. That will result in more diverse and interesting matches involving MK while also making him a lot more balanced with the rest of the cast. Most people who tried to tier BBrawl put MK near the bottom of the top 10 characters so I think our approach empirically worked at least; we didn't ruin him but did make him fair.

I somewhat agree but I'd still say down toning his priority somewhat would balance him out further. Not a long way, judging by what you've said some small changes really do seem to work here but... he's still over powered through gimping because he can last off-stage, so it sounds. Not that he shouldn't last offstage, just that his attacks should be beaten out every once in a while.

Otherwise that sounds like a great MK to me. :-)

@ Orngeblu: Well that's great and all but you need to provide reasoning beyond the fact that he's your main... It's not like influential developers frequent these forums.

 

[Johnknight1]

How about instead of trying to "tone down" Meta Knight we just make everyone have heavy offensive firepower=???

You know, like in Smash 64 and Melee (but maybe less/less "long" unavoidable combos).

 

[Powerstars]

How about instead of trying to "tone down" Meta Knight we just make everyone have heavy offensive firepower=???

You know, like in Smash 64 and Melee (but maybe less/less "long" unavoidable combos).

Totally agree with dis.

 

[Johnknight1]

Although to be fair, his down Smash shouldn't kill so early, his neutral B should probably have slightly less priority, his down B shouldn't have a stupid infinite glitch, and he shouldn't be able to plank from below the stage (along with the rest of the playable roster).

 

[Orngeblu]

I want a duel mode for Brawl. It will be a 1v1. You fight against a random person 1v1. c:

Also, being able to invite people or join people in your friend froster, to a Team Battle. (Where you are set up with other two randoms)

 

[Luco]

How about instead of trying to "tone down" Meta Knight we just make everyone have heavy offensive firepower=???

You know, like in Smash 64 and Melee (but maybe less/less "long" unavoidable combos).

Because it means less work to just tone down one character rather than buff everyone else and unless you put hours of effort in to making sure everyone else's overpowered-ness doesn't unbalance the game then you just end up with the same problem on a different character. :-/

Although come to think of it to balance every character they'd need to put in a similar amount of work anyway, wouldn't they? Hm... I suppose it's possible. Remember though if everyone's too powerful then matches end up being like 200% damage meter on smash 64: Whoever gets the first grab, wins. You can do that anyway currently but not so directly and it's possible to escape if the other person makes an error.

 

[Johnknight1]

Because it means less work to just tone down one character rather than buff everyone else and unless you put hours of effort in to making sure everyone else's overpowered-ness doesn't unbalance the game then you just end up with the same problem on a different character. :-/

If they only "tone down" 1 character they are looking over the problems of the other 38 characters and the basis of the huge gaping problems that Brawl had (which is ultimately why Game Arts is probably never going to work on a smash bros game again). Plus, this will be 2 brand new smash bros experiences, like the 3 before it. Nearly everyone will be much different than before.

Although come to think of it to balance every character they'd need to put in a similar amount of work anyway, wouldn't they? Hm... I suppose it's possible. Remember though if everyone's too powerful then matches end up being like 200% damage meter on smash 64: Whoever gets the first grab, wins. You can do that anyway currently but not so directly and it's possible to escape if the other person makes an error.

Offense is never going to be as crazy as in Smash 64 because of all the added defensive options we've gotten in Melee and Brawl. If those added defensive options (and possible more) along with strong offense is implemented and balance right, that gives us more options, which makes the game deeper, and ultimately better (while still fairly simple).

One of Brawl's biggest problem was outside of Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Olimar, nobody had much offense. Well, other than cheap tactics, stalling-based stuff (ROB, Pit), chain grabbing (Dedede), broken projectile spamming (Falco, Snake, Toon Link), etc. All other forms of offense are beaten by the same cheap tactics (running away, stalling, shielding, projectile spamming, planking, edge grabbing over and over and over, etc), which is proof that we need more offense than we had in Brawl to balance out the defense.

Giving everyone more offense with some actual combos of more than 2 hits would probably balance the game, which is inevitably what Namco Bandai, a company with as much experience in fighting games (unlike Game Arts) is going to do. That way, we will get more spectacular KO's, more rewards for players with skill and knowledge (of the game and their opponent), and more momentum swings (which Brawl seemed to lack entirely without items on).

After all, everyone loves it when a match can turn upside down in a second, and when offense can come out of nowhere to even up a match. That's why the most popular sports in the world are sports where things can change with one play (baseball, soccer, football, etc). That is also why game shows increase the amounts of points you can earn later in the shows. People want action, and Brawl was severely lacking in it!

 

[Luco]

Not really, because this will be 2 entirely different smash games like every smash game before. Nearly all of the "changes" to the vets [outside of appearances] will be how they're balanced.

Offense is never going to be as crazy as in Smash 64 because of all the added defensive options we've gotten in Melee and Brawl.

One of Brawl's biggest problem was outside of Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Olimar, nobody had much offense. Well, other than cheap tactics, stalling-based stuff (ROB, Pit), chain grabbing (Dedede), broken projectile spamming (Falco, Snake), etc.

Giving everyone more offense with some actual combos of more than 2 hits would probably balance the game, which is inevitably what Namco Bandai, a company with as much experience in fighting games (unlike Game Arts) is going to do. That way, we will get more spectacular KO's, more rewards for players with skill and knowledge (of the game and their opponent), and more momentum swings (which Brawl seemed to lack entirely without items on).

You think so? I dunno, I think that smash has already had several installments, vets have been changed but the tier list is as wonky as ever.

True enough that we lack combos - well, ones that are solid: We can get luck-based combos but nothing definitive outside of, well, locks really (jab lock, laser lock, ice block lock, Dtilt lock, etc) in to other moves that happen to lead in to other moves. Still, i'm worried that Namco Bandai will change smash in a way that will make me dislike it. I enjoy smash specifically because of it's unique mechanics that have introduced so much to the fighting genre. Will NB, a company that goes for something a lot more traditional, change that for the better or the worse? I'm honestly not sure so i'm hoping that if they do change it then they change it in a positive way. Otherwise i'm not sure how happy i'll be with smash.

Of course even so, i think NB doesn't really want to change any of smash's fundamentals because of sensitivity issues (which i think is really mature and I totally respect NB for that. By the same token if they can make it better then I'd have no problem with that either), so may be that I don't have to worry. :o

 

[Baskerville]

Here's a thought...DON'T GET RID OF TOON LINK! D:< I WANT TO KEEP HIM BECAUSE HE HIS MY MAIN ON BRAWL!

I approve of this.

 

[Big-Cat]

True enough that we lack combos - well, ones that are solid: We can get luck-based combos but nothing definitive outside of, well, locks really (jab lock, laser lock, ice block lock, Dtilt lock, etc) in to other moves that happen to lead in to other moves. Still, i'm worried that Namco Bandai will change smash in a way that will make me dislike it. I enjoy smash specifically because of it's unique mechanics that have introduced so much to the fighting genre. Will NB, a company that goes for something a lot more traditional, change that for the better or the worse? I'm honestly not sure so i'm hoping that if they do change it then they change it in a positive way. Otherwise i'm not sure how happy i'll be with smash.

Of course even so, i think NB doesn't really want to change any of smash's fundamentals because of sensitivity issues (which i think is really mature and I totally respect NB for that. By the same token if they can make it better then I'd have no problem with that either), so may be that I don't have to worry. :o

I've always said that some "traditional" mechanics would really help the series and possibly help out with some holes in the game's design. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if these so called traditional mechanics are modified for Smash such that the Smash versions are distinct in their own right. For example, there's the smaller analog shield idea which is the equivalent of high-mid-low blocking while allowing for various sized characters AND is more intuitive. If we want to look at what's in now, DI is essentially the aerial ukemi you see in airdash fighters except it lacks the visual cues of the aerial ukemi (does it need it?).

Speaking of which, does DI need to be balanced out? Should all moves be DI-able?

 

[Baskerville]

Not all moves, just moves with multiple hits.

 

[Big-Cat]

Do you think DI should have restrictions as to where you do it towards? Like, you can't always use a certain direction to escape harm's way.

 

[Baskerville]

It should be more move dependent. Like if you land a Dair with DDD and you're on the ground you can DI horizontally instead of upward to punish, preventing from taking more damage. (Dunno if I answered your question well or not)

 

[Big-Cat]

It kind of did. About that DI upward in that scenario, if DDD predicts that the opponent will do that, does he have a way to counter it (and he should).

 

[Baskerville]

He can do either Uair, Nair, UTilt or try to grab them(if hes on the ground).

 

[FlappyFalco]

He can do either Uair, Nair, UTilt or try to grab them(if hes on the ground).

Uh.... The last 6 posts confuse me.I'm sure there's no U or N button on a Wiiumote....

 

[Baskerville]

U = Up air/ Tilt
N = Neutral air
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Big-Cat]

He can do either Uair, Nair, UTilt or try to grab them(if hes on the ground).

Then you answered my question. My concern was that because of the range of DI, could you always escape on certain moves and not worry about the opponent after.

 

[~automatic]

Uh.... The last 6 posts confuse me.I'm sure there's no U or N button on a Wiiumote....

The letters denote the direction on which one tilts the analog stick when making an imput.
U = Up
D = Down
F = Forward (either side)
N = Neutral (no stick movement)

 

[Sword_kirby777]

The letters denote the direction on which one tilts the analog stick when making an imput.
U = Up
D = Down
F = Forward (either side)
N = Neutral (no stick movement)

Or the D-Pad if you're using just the Wiimote.

 

[Luco]

And B for Back. :-P

Anyway, I actually really enjoyed how DI and SDI work in Brawl, personally. It allowed for some crazy things to happen (think Lucas' Usmash causing you to slam on to the ground instead of getting star KO'ed. :-P )

 

[Sword_kirby777]

Yeah, DI led into a lot of interesting things. I don't really think it should be changed much, if any. I like the idea of knowing how to DI allowing you to be better at surviving, it makes the game involve a little bit more skill than luck. I know it doesn't take all that much to DI, but knowing when and where to DI, and in which direction, and so on, takes skill.

 

[Luco]

Yeah, DI led into a lot of interesting things. I don't really think it should be changed much, if any. I like the idea of knowing how to DI allowing you to be better at surviving, it makes the game involve a little bit more skill than luck. I know it doesn't take all that much to DI, but knowing when and where to DI, and in which direction, and so on, takes skill.

Yeah I agree with this.

Btw Kuma have I told you your avatar is awesome? I love it so much (it's very cute )!

 

[FlappyFalco]

The letters denote the direction on which one tilts the analog stick when making an imput.
U = Up
D = Down
F = Forward (either side)
N = Neutral (no stick movement)

Oh, I get it now. But who/where/what is a DI?

 

[Luco]

Directional Input. When you get hit, it determines where you go.

 

[~automatic]

Here's a video explaining how DI works and how it can be used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

The basic idea of using DI is to change your trajectory away the KO zone for survival, avoiding combos, getting out of multi-hit attacks, hazards or items (Zelda's Up Smash, the laser beam on Halberd and Smart Bombs for example) and other fun stuff.

 

[Mypantisgone]

Was this posted before?

Someone translate this,please,if not we may be missing something big...all Sakurai said was "Oh my goodness.Good luck everyone!"

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Was this posted before?

Spoiler

Someone translate this,please,if not we may be missing something big...all Sakurai said was "Oh my goodness.Good luck everyone!"

Looks fan-made to me. I can't speak/read Japanese, so I have no idea what it says.

Edit: Wait, you said you can't read Japanses, yet you could understand what Sakurai said. Did this come from his twitter?