Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Pichu4SSB4]

To put it short, i support diversity for most characters, but clones for some characters are still necessary.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why are they necessary?

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

I just feel they are, but that's just me. There are these reasonable clone characters such as Luigi, Roy, Toon Link, they don't really harm the roster. They contribute to it pretty well. And if Dixie was to make it in she'd have every right to be a clone of Diddy Kong with some minor changes to her mechanic, it'd be obviously reasonable. They both share the same playstyle in the DKC games too, like Luigi does with Mario in their games.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why not make them unique if they can be? And to say Dixie could be a Diddy clone. The Dixie fans are gonna have a field day with you.

 

[Deleted member]

They really can't say crap; it is possible that she can. No one's arguing that she will, though.

 

[SmashShadow]

Whoa, whoa. Why is Roy thrown in the mix?

 

[Luco]

I can see where you're going with it and to some extent I agree... but not too much. I think if the character is designed to be somewhat like another character in the actual game they come from, then clones in that situation are okay. To me this applies to characters such as Luigi compared to mario, TL compared to Link and perhaps even Lucas and Ness (although on a competitive level they have some huge differences! In fact, you might find that most if not all clones tend to have huge differences in their playstyles!). When it comes to Ganon and CF... No way in heck should they be alike at all.

When it comes right down to it, i'm not actually that bothered by clones if I can see some reasoning behind them that compares the characters there with themselves in their games.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd consider Lucas and Toon Link to be ones that can go either way. Both have a lot of similarities to Ness and Link respectively, but they have enough canon stuff to have a unique playstyle.

 

[Luco]

Mm... That's true enough. They really do play very differently, although I think TL and normal Link play slightly more similarly than Ness and Lucas. Not entirely sure on that one, you could watch some vids of both.

Actually, normal Link has something that doesn't work nearly as well with TL and that's the jab combos that Ike can do. Just discovered it today and it's pretty nasty.

 

[Big-Cat]

I meant in terms of moveset potential. Toon Link has lots of items that have never shown up outside of the Toon games.

 

[Luco]

Ah yea. Okay, that's a fair point.

 

[SmashShadow]

The thing is though, the most used weapons in both games are the same ones. You could give him the sling shot, whip, sword beam, gust jar but none of them are as iconic as the items he already uses. That's why I'm sure if his moveset really needs to deviate too much.

 

[FlappyFalco]

The thing is though, the most used weapons in both games are the same ones. You could give him the sling shot, whip, sword beam, gust jar but none of them are as iconic as the items he already uses. That's why I'm sure if his moveset really needs to deviate too much.

That's what I meant in my sig. If they wanted to give Toon Link the Skull Hammer for Side B they would have to get rid of the Boomerang which is far more iconic.

I think Realistic Link needs to change though. Not his moveset or for "de-cloning" purposes but for balance and how the moves work. He is obviously weaker than Toon Link because:His arrows don't fly as far as Toon Link's, his moves aren't that much stronger than Toon Link's and he feels heavier than Bowser for some reason.

The same goes for Ness. All his moves except his B down are weaker than Lucas' (his Final Smash especially). Now I don't play as Lucas that much, but when I do his moves feel easier to use and send enemies flying farther than with Ness. Or maybe it's just me.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

On a different note I hope there's less stages with moving and damaging gimmicks. I liked in melee that there was a lot of sedantery stages with different shapes without having to resort to hazards.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

On a different note I hope there's less stages with moving and damaging gimmicks. I liked in melee that there was a lot of sedantery stages with different shapes without having to resort to hazards.

But then people would whine about all the stages being "boring." Not that I'm opposed to having less hectic stages.

I think the best option would be to have an option to turn off the hazards in stages. That way the casuals get their crazy random party stages, while the hardcore fans can get a variety of more "normal" stages as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's what I meant in my sig. If they wanted to give Toon Link the Skull Hammer for Side B they would have to get rid of the Boomerang which is far more iconic.

That's why we have two Links in Smash. Heck, Ky and Robo-Ky play nothing in Guilty Gear, just to point out an example. I'm pretty sure the same goes for Sol and Order Sol.

Do you feel Falco and Wolf should have different specials?

 

[SmashShadow]

That's why we have two Links in Smash. Heck, Ky and Robo-Ky play nothing in Guilty Gear, just to point out an example. I'm pretty sure the same goes for Sol and Order Sol.

Do you feel Falco and Wolf should have different specials?

Out of all of them Wolf is the most different. Still, some of his specials could use refining(cough* Wolf Fire cough* Wolf Flash). I think falco is the one who should further differentiate from Fox. The one thing we can all agree on is no more Landmaster for everybody.

@Tyrogue of Hyrule I'm okay with Lucas being the powerhouse of the two but Ness was just plain weak. I guess you can say that balances out with his ability to combo better but he is still too weak IMO. I feel like Ness can keep PK Star Storm(Lucas's) but Lucas should definitely get a new FS because PK Star Storm was associated with Ness's friend, not Lucas. Maybe give him PK Love Omega.

 

[Luco]

That's what I meant in my sig. If they wanted to give Toon Link the Skull Hammer for Side B they would have to get rid of the Boomerang which is far more iconic.

I think Realistic Link needs to change though. Not his moveset or for "de-cloning" purposes but for balance and how the moves work. He is obviously weaker than Toon Link because:His arrows don't fly as far as Toon Link's, his moves aren't that much stronger than Toon Link's and he feels heavier than Bowser for some reason.

The same goes for Ness. All his moves except his B down are weaker than Lucas' (his Final Smash especially). Now I don't play as Lucas that much, but when I do his moves feel easier to use and send enemies flying farther than with Ness. Or maybe it's just me.

Ness is three spots higher than Lucas on the tier list, though on the Japanese tier list Lucas is quite a bit higher.

But that's not what I wanted to say. I don't feel Ness and Lucas need changing because they aren't actually that much of a clone of each other than what people think of them. As a person who plays both competitively, I can tell you for sure that their playstyles are hugely different and you should watch videos of shaky and mekos (Ness and Lucas top players, respectively) if you want to see just how much they vary. Taking specials out of it though, not even their aerials are similar, save maybe the headbutt.

That's still off topic though. In answer to your statement, Ness has one insane headbutt compared to Lucas. I think Ness' will kill much earlier, maybe at like 120-130-ish region, whereas on the same character Lucas would kill for sure at maybe 170-180.

Ness' back throw is by far the strongest Bthrow in the game past a certain percentage (and as a bit of fun trivia, Lucas has the strongest Dthrow I think... actually it might be Fthrow... gah, now I can't remember )... His PKT2 sweetspot usually kills at 60% but has the potential to kill at half that percentage and his PK flash can kill at I think 50 or 60 % well charged. Not sure on that last one. His Bair is rather insane and quick too, his Fair is a wall of amazingness for many reasons (can't spell amazingness without ness :3 ), his aerial spike is the strongest in the game past 20% (Diddy apparently has the strongest below 20%) and his dash grab is the best in the game.

Now i'm not trying to discredit Lucas here, seeing as he is my main and Ness my secondary, i'm just saying that they do have significant differences and Ness does have quite a few of his own strengths... it's just Lucas' ones are more apparent at first.

And if it seems like i'm ranting, i'm not. I just feel the only changes Ness and Lucas should really have are intricate ones, such as the CG issue, lessening some start-up and cool-down frames on a couple moves, etc. So don't worry, i'm not angry or annoyed or anything, this is just how I feel about the PK kids.

@ Kuma: Neither are Ness' (), not that that makes me love either of them any less. They're awesome! :D

As for their FS'es, Ness had the stronger starstorm if I recall. Unfortunately once you're used to it it's rather easy to avoid. I love the FS, I just feel there should be something that draws the person in... puts them in a bad position... I dunno.

Maybe combo FS'es could happen in the next game... that'd be insane. Peach using hers to lull everyone to sleep if possible while Lucas PK starstorms... >_>

 

[Big-Cat]

None of Lucas' specials are his.

 

[~automatic]

And his normals/aerials are very similar to Mewtwo's imo.

 

[Luco]

And his normals/aerials are very similar to Mewtwo's imo.

Really? I haven't played an awful lot of melee but I never thought they were that similar.

 

[SmashShadow]

None of Lucas' specials are his.

Meh. Lucas 0/4 Ness 1/4

 

[---]

And his normals/aerials are very similar to Mewtwo's imo.

Yeah I can agree with this a little, can't really explain why though.

Honestly I can kinda see why Sakurai chose Jigglypuff over Mewtwo, that's not to say Mewtwo wouldn't offer anything as a character, but IMO Jiggs offered more.

 

[Luco]

Maybe it's the floatiness and the feel of both characters? I suppose in that regard I can kind of see it... if I squint really hard... and use a lot of imagination... and... j/ks.

But yeah I can kinda get the meaning... I still think they're pretty different though generally.

 

[RomanceDawn]

And his normals/aerials are very similar to Mewtwo's imo.

It's true, i've been saying this for a long time now. But N-Air, Up Smash, Down Smash, it's totally Mewtwo. With the psychic Pokemon gone, the new psychic kid inherited some of his moves.

 

[Luco]

Well, maybe. I always thought Zelda had some similarities. Am I remembering Mewtwo wrong? :/

 

[RomanceDawn]

Think about Mewtwo's N-Air, the electricity, just like Lucas. Mewtwo's Up Smash, the energy raised over his head could somewhat draw in an opponent, just like Lucas. The Down Smash for both are aimed low in one direction shooting off an energy blast.

Of course each of Lucas's attacks are 10 times better than Mewtwo's ever were but visually they are very similar.

 

[Luco]

Mmm, s'pose so.

What do you guys think should happen to Meta Knight to make him less overpowered in smash 4? We've looked at buffing many characters but not much at nerfing them.

 

[Aurane]

After playing Kirby's 20th anny, I have now a stronger want for Adeleine for SSB4 ._. Why must good characters be missed?

@Luco Metaknight? Nerfing? Nah, let's leave him the way he is, and then balance out everyone else to be just as good as him. Problem solved!~

 

[Baskerville]

Well, it depends on how the game will play though.

 

[Luco]

After playing Kirby's 20th anny, I have now a stronger want for Adeleine for SSB4 ._. Why must good characters be missed?

@Luco Metaknight? Nerfing? Nah, let's leave him the way he is, and then balance out everyone else to be just as good as him. Problem solved!~

I think it requires much less work to just nerf him, when you put it that way. >_>

 

[Aurane]

I think it requires much less work to just nerf him, when you put it that way. >_>

I wouldn't know, I don't study on balance. I just desire it

But in seriousness Idk any way to nerf MK besides speed and (B) moves- Example, making it so that they all don't rise MK. But idk, I don't really get into 'nerfing'.

 

[Luco]

I normally wouldn't but for MK I think it might be truly necessary.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

MK's recovery needs to be tweaked down a it, same for R.O.B His ground moveset should have more ending lag as well, punishing MK in Brawl was really obscure because of the quick frames his moveset has. And also, for the love of god tweak down his Neutral Special (Tornado), i've come across players who spams that move too frequently and it's not very punishable. So it's really easy for noob players to get away with a spammy Meta Knight, this is a big credit to Brawl's physics though. Because floaty gameplay and no hitstun gave Meta Knight a big advantage over characters who struggled with Brawl's mechanic such as Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

So yes, i am in big favor of Meta Knight getting nerfed. For the sake of all of us, for the children!

 

[SmashShadow]

I'd say just slow some of his smashes by a few frames, nerf KB of Shuttle Loop, make nado harder to control or make it have ending lag and make his aerials(up) have some lag.

 

[Big-Cat]

How about getting rid of transcendent priority on most of his attacks?

 

[SmashShadow]

I'd be fine with that. I'd say keep it on his forward aerial, Shuttle Loop and Dimensional Cape.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing about Meta Knight is that Brawl's game play is the reason for his dominant position. If he remains unchanged, but the game play elements are altered, his tier position may end up getting a nerf, if not a drastic one.

 

[Big-Cat]

Come to think of it, that's how Capt. Falcon fell so low from Melee to Brawl.

 

[RunC.T.]

The funny thing about Meta Knight is that Brawl's game play is the reason for his dominant position. If he remains unchanged, but the game play elements are altered, his tier position may end up getting a nerf, if not a drastic one.

Very true man. 64, melee and brawl all have their own different engine for the style of fighting.
Im predicting the same for smash 4. a different fighting engine.

on another note. do you think they'll add more villian characters for the roster?
I'd love to use Demise from Skyward Sword.