Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[THE 6r]

It really seems like GS has a real chance to come back again right now. Hopefully that's incentive enough for Sakurai to actually put Isaac in Smash because I think that would solidify GS's continued presence

Normally this is just the wishful thinking of an echo chamber, but nowadays it feels more like that's not the case, which is what gives me hope.

 

[SonicLink125]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ah yes. Agatio’s most powerful move in the game. lol

Normally this is just the wishful thinking of an echo chamber, but nowadays it feels more like that's not the case, which is what gives me hope.

There really is a possibility that it can all happen and it’s pretty exciting! But we still gotta keep pushing for it. Even if somehow, someway, we get a legit leak that it is all happening, we keep pushing no matter what. We can’t stop the train of the Golden Sun!

 

[StrawHatX]

So this is going to be a long post, but I’ve been thinking a lot about Isaac’s chances and just want to see if somebody can change my mind about this.

First of all, I do agree that we COULD maybe get some form of Golden Sun game in the near future, and honestly that would be the biggest win for me. Even more than Isaac’s inclusion is Smash (which I obviously still want). And a new game could help with that. But unless it’s a remastered version or they just rerelease the games on the Switch I don’t know if any game would come out in time before Smash DLC ends.

Here’s the problem that I have when thinking about Isaac jumping to playable character. In Brawl he was made an AT even though this was during the time closest to the height of GS’s popularity. Then in Sm4sh he’s completely left out. Which seems a little odd since they likely already started working on the game around when DD came out. Guess those sales numbers really hit them?

At the end of Sm4sh we get a popularity poll essentially that Sakurai and his team get to measure characters’ wants from fans. We don’t know how well Isaac did, but I’m sure it was pretty good. So in Ultimate Sakurai takes characters from that list and starts making fan favorites characters. Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo are huge in fan demand from the Smash crowd and they finally get in. What about our Golden Boi? He gets his AT status back and a costume.

Yes, it’s more than Sm4sh, but obviously not what we were hoping. Even Geno STILL hasn’t had his costume return, and according to Insiders he’s constantly talked about as potentially DLC.

Now I don’t think it’s completely impossible Isaac could get promoted. But to be honest I’m starting to feel like Sakurai might be the kind of guy to think it would make more sense to add more fan favorites that aren’t in the game at all rather than promote a character from an AT. Because we all know Sakurai and his team see AT’s as a big deal and think fans are happy just to see their characters there.

I know Dark Samus and Little Mac made the jump even though it was a different game. I still think it’s more of a fan rule and not law. But like I said I think Sakurai might see Isaac as already being in Smash so he doesn’t need to make him a playable character.

Anyways I just felt like talking about it since the thread has been slow. I’m still hoping he jumps up in DLC. I’ll still believe. Just was wondering what others realistically feel about his promotion chances.

 

[Organization XIII]

Realistically it's hard to say. While I think expecting any ATs for the pass is silly, we do have a new round of DLC. Now Sakurai has upgraded ATs every game since their introduction so with a new round of deciding characters ATs have an alright shot. I feel the biggest hurdle to ATs getting in as DLC are the fans. Because the community is so deadset on believing that ATs kill they stop talking about a character all together. Could easily give the devs the impression the ATs did their job. Continual requests are the main key to getting what is seen as impossible into Smash. Now as for Isaac's chances hard to say. If Ultimate was a normal Smash without Vets eating 90% of the dev time for characters, he would have been in with Ridley and K Rool like he should have been. His ballot presence was large and there was all the demand during pre-Ultimate. If Sakurai truly wants to answer fan demand then him and Waluigi have a fair shot at making it. I think we need a little more data on some post pass selections before any calls can be made about Isaac's chances.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Here’s the problem that I have when thinking about Isaac jumping to playable character. In Brawl he was made an AT even though this was during the time closest to the height of GS’s popularity.

There were so much more characters that deserved to be in before Isaac, more known, historically more deserving, that I don't think Isaac was anywhere near that close be get in during Brawl.

And don't forget that Japan was never that fan of Golden Sun from the start. GS got the most momentum in Europe, more than America, and even more than Japan. GS is a "newb-friendly" JRPG, an really good first entry for new JRPG players, and hit the store at the right time for the West, but Japan has been a big JRPG land way before GS arrived, thus having not that much of success in a country experienced with that kind of games.

I don't discount the own strengths of the game. It's beautiful, have excellent musics, easy to get in but hard to master, interesting puzzles, and a charming world; but that wasn't enough to become a hit in Japan.

Yes, it’s more than Sm4sh, but obviously not what we were hoping. Even Geno STILL hasn’t had his costume return, and according to Insiders he’s constantly talked about as potentially DLC.

Geno is overrated. He only is a relatively strong request in America, a marginal one in Japan, and nearly nowhere to be seen in Europe (his game never get there before Virtual Console). If we are still talking about him, that's because we are on a board that is massively more used by Americans than others, thus the bias.
Objectively, he has less chance than Isaac. Square-Enix is picky, they would push any other character before him anyway.

Now as for Isaac's chances hard to say.

The big question is if there will be first parties or not.
If there's not, obviously Isaac won't come in.
If there's a few of them, I strongly believe he will be in the batch.
If it's only one or two, maybe it will only be promotional picks. But I hope not, Sakurai both said he wanted to please the fan, and to add new worlds, and that's not by adding one more Pokémon, one more Fire Emblem character, a 3rd monkey, or a villain for a niche and already represented RPG that we will do that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

we do have a new round of DLC. Now Sakurai has upgraded ATs every game since their introduction so with a new round of deciding characters ATs have an alright shot

One factor to consider is if this post-pass DLC was as pre-planned as the Fighters Pass was. Smash 4's wasn't, which is how they were able to acknowledge Mewtwo complaints right out the gate.

That, and considering the Waluigi stuff from last year, it's clear that assist trophies are becoming more divisive than ever.

 

[Kalaam]

People complained mewtwo wasn't playable in Smash 4, he was the big reveal for dlc.
People complain that some AT weren't made playable (Waluigi, Isaac) it's possible they'll be the big reveal for the post pass dlc. (which was decided post-launch so post Grinch Leak, post outcry, post reactions, post golden sunday)

 

[SPEN18]

One factor to consider is if this post-pass DLC was as pre-planned as the Fighters Pass was.

Given how they were marketing the Fighters Pass (and also that the next DLC isn't being marketed as "Fighters Pass 2" or anything similar), it seems to me that the post-pass DLC probably wasn't planned right from the get-go.

But of course I don't know for sure.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think at least one character may have been planned shortly after the fighter pass's reveal, but we'll have to wait and see. The brunt of it was probably after E3 though

 

[SonicLink125]

With all that we know so far:
•Plans for more DLC must have happened around between January through June.
•Fighters Pass (and the game itself) did extremely well for them to want to do more DLC
•The Grinch Leak brought back lash to Nintendo which MIGHT have been a blessing in disguise to have them consider Isaac, Geno, etc to be playable.
•Golden Sun Remake might be happening next year which would be perfect for Isaac to be revealed for it. But that’s only speculation atm.

Interesting stuff so far honestly.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

With all that we know so far:
•Plans for more DLC must have happened around between January through June.
•Fighters Pass (and the game itself) did extremely well for them to want to do more DLC
•The Grinch Leak brought back lash to Nintendo which MIGHT have been a blessing in disguise to have them consider Isaac, Geno, etc to be playable.
•Golden Sun Remake might be happening next year which would be perfect for Isaac to be revealed for it. But that’s only speculation atm.

Interesting stuff so far honestly.

SonicLink hit the nail on the head right here.
While the scenario of Isaac getting ignored for DLC is always a possibility, we need to keep in mind the circumstances that could make Isaac a top contender for a DLC spot also exists as well, especially from our support which is more than enough to continue what we're doing. The support that we generate for this character and series is what will be the ultimate factor that would make them decide to add him in so we need to keep at it. I mean we're crazy enough to make a holiday celebrating the Golden Sun series instead of throwing in the towel which says a lot for the passion we have and the timing for it was pretty good as well. We've made huge progress from where our position was in Smash 4 until now and we need to encourage them to go even further. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[FlawedAI]

I feel like Isaac's chances are super up in the air and depend on several sort-of independent factors. Let me explain:
1. If a new Golden Sun is development. We have several things that point to this: Aces' development ending in mid-2018, the trademark for Golden Sun being applied for soon after, the GS reference in (the Japanese version of) Aces, the Takahashis' insistence on wanting to make a new RPG, general fan demand, etc. However, none of these are solid confirmation, which sucks. A new Golden Sun would greatly help Isaac's chances.
2. How visible Isaac's fan demand is. We know from Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo that Sakurai will take fan demand into account. However, we also think that he was surprised by K. Rool's demand, which is strange, due to K. Rool's popularity all over the world. If he didn't know people wanted K. Rool, how will he know people want Isaac? (This leads me to my next point...)
3. How well Isaac did on the Smash Ballot. We can assume he did at least decently well since a ton of Golden Sun content was added to Ultimate. However, he didn't quite reach the ranks of K. Rool or Banjo, the only characters that I personally feel confident in calling a "Ballot Pick". (Sakurai includes Simon and Ridley as Ballot Picks, but I don't really believe that. Ridley was just general demand, and Simon didn't seem very popular according to exit polls.) Additionally, NoA was surprised by the backlash to Isaac's Assist, which means either NoJ didn't share the Ballot results, or Isaac did worse than we thought. (This is really suspicious to me, because it seems obvious that NoA would be scouring Nintendo-related boards to check in, and they somehow missed us?)
4. Will first-party characters be DLC. This seems obvious to people like us, but it's no guarantee that Sakurai will spring for the seemingly obvious picks like Waluigi and Isaac.
5. Finally, will they upgrade Assists? We have no clue on this one. I think the real question is "How far will Sakurai go to please fans, and were we loud enough when it mattered?" The Isaac/Golden Sun is kinda notorious for going quiet for a while, but we've done our best to stay relevant this time around. If Sakurai really wants to please the fans like he said he did, Isaac should be at the top of the list (or near the top, at least). This is the biggest one to consider, in my opinion.

In conclusion, it all really comes down to Sakurai and his judgement. If he feels the Golden Sun fanbase is large enough to warrant upgrading Isaac, he will. However, these other factors also need to be taken into consideration. I think we have a good chance, but these things will help us out a ton.

 

[DogManStar]

I think the biggest problem at this point is the fans, not Sakurai himself. We know Sakurai's opinion doesn't really matter too much if the fan demand is truly overwhelming, as evidenced by the case of Ridley. Even if he hates Isaac or something like that which we can't be sure of, he would have to include Isaac if enough people were constantly asking for him.
The problem is that a lot of people have given up on him because of the AT, which validates the opinion we assume Sakurai has: an AT will make fans of that character mostly satisfied because they're at least in the game. I'm sure most of us are happy that Nintendo recognized that we still exist, but since we're still here talking about it, we can all agree that this hasn't sated our real want.
Unfortunately, a lot of people have this idea that disagreeing with the devs or asking for more is ungrateful and spreading hate, especially in the case of Smash. People need to keep up the buzz around Golden Sun and Isaac/Felix/Matthew in Smash. You don't have to specifically bother Sakurai himself to do that, either, so I don't see why people are afraid to keep talking about the idea if they truly want Isaac in.

I think the best thing we can hope for is that Nintendo has heard us on Golden Sunday and that Sakurai himself has seen the reactions to the last Smash Direct. Hopefully he's aware that people can be pretty disappointed by assist trophies and understands that we just want to see this character playable after all this time we've waited trying to get this series back on its feet.

 

[Pinguino21v]

We know Sakurai's opinion doesn't really matter too much

And, yet, we have Joker and Terry. And we got Palutena.

 

[StrawHatX]

I think the biggest problem at this point is the fans, not Sakurai himself. We know Sakurai's opinion doesn't really matter too much if the fan demand is truly overwhelming, as evidenced by the case of Ridley. Even if he hates Isaac or something like that which we can't be sure of, he would have to include Isaac if enough people were constantly asking for him.
The problem is that a lot of people have given up on him because of the AT, which validates the opinion we assume Sakurai has: an AT will make fans of that character mostly satisfied because they're at least in the game. I'm sure most of us are happy that Nintendo recognized that we still exist, but since we're still here talking about it, we can all agree that this hasn't sated our real want.
Unfortunately, a lot of people have this idea that disagreeing with the devs or asking for more is ungrateful and spreading hate, especially in the case of Smash. People need to keep up the buzz around Golden Sun and Isaac/Felix/Matthew in Smash. You don't have to specifically bother Sakurai himself to do that, either, so I don't see why people are afraid to keep talking about the idea if they truly want Isaac in.

I think the best thing we can hope for is that Nintendo has heard us on Golden Sunday and that Sakurai himself has seen the reactions to the last Smash Direct. Hopefully he's aware that people can be pretty disappointed by assist trophies and understands that we just want to see this character playable after all this time we've waited trying to get this series back on its feet.

But does he really need to include Isaac if enough people are asking for him? Don’t get me wrong, I hope you’re right. But at the same while Isaac has been wanted in the Smash community you’ve had characters like Waluigi who have been asked for by a ton of people and Sakurai joked about him not making the cut (and this was before a couple of Waluigi fans acted like idiots and threatened him).

I agree with what a lot of people are saying here and I do feel like his chances are better than they’ve ever been. However, I also have this horrible feeling that it’s possible even with all the demand that Sakurai will still look at the situation as “Well, I already decided to make that character an AT so he’s already in the game and if I’m going to add more DLC then I’ll add characters that aren’t in the game at all.”

Because Sakurai and his team apparently saw characters being made into AT’s as something fans would still enjoy. I don’t know why since people were groaning about their favorites getting stuck as them since they were initially created. And they must have at least somewhat listened to fan feedback back then because they knew about the “Ridley too big” stuff and whatever.

The fact that this game is about pleasing fans and with the ballot, the Grinch Leak, and the reaction to Isaac’s fate in the Direct I do hope he decides to promote Isaac.

It’s been a painful ride as an Isaac fan. More so than even Geno fans because at least their character is still in DLC conversation by “Insiders”. Although all of those “Insiders” hang around in the Geno thread and are likely massive Geno fanboys so I don’t know how well you can trust what they’re saying. But some Geno fans take their word like it’s the damn Bible or something (and Geno is my second most wanted FYI).

 

[Kalaam]

Well, if we had "insiders" saying Isaac was in we would too.
Just that no big names wants to take that chance because of how unlikely he seems. (though, Terry was unlikely too, so it makes Isaac more likely than one might think)

 

[StrawHatX]

Well, if we had "insiders" saying Isaac was in we would too.
Just that no big names wants to take that chance because of how unlikely he seems. (though, Terry was unlikely too, so it makes Isaac more likely than one might think)

Oh I get it. But Fatman (who hangs out in their thread) is someone that knows Insiders. What he says is his own speculation on what he hears from them. So it’s not fact. It’s his own opinions. And even then those same Insiders will form just report on what their sources say and most of the time the sources aren’t 100% sure about stuff. And Fatman is cool and has made that clear, but some people treat him like a prophet.

Basically I just personally like to wait for proof that can’t be refuted or just for an official announcement. Even if it did include Isaac. That Grinch Leak hurt me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Because Sakurai and his team apparently saw characters being made into AT’s as something fans would still enjoy

It's apparently the case in Japan, but if it truly was that they would've been fine with Robin's FS instead of voting for Chrom on the ballot.

 

[StrawHatX]

It's apparently the case in Japan, but if it truly was that they would've been fine with Robin's FS instead of voting for Chrom on the ballot.

Maybe. But a cameo in a Final Smash is a little different than an AT. The AT actually interacts with fighters and has it’s own model. At least that may have been the way Sakurai saw it.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

It's apparently the case in Japan, but if it truly was that they would've been fine with Robin's FS instead of voting for Chrom on the ballot.

If it is, then it's good that our character is more wanted in other regions.

 

[Gioka]

It is hard to know where we stand right now, but wish TGA around the corner I know almost certainly that we will get a better idea on that soon. I am still unsure if we are getting only FP 5 but I think it would be a smart move from Nintendo and Sakurai to also at least hint to what may be coming for the post FP DLC

 

[N3ON]

It is hard to know where we stand right now, but wish TGA around the corner I know almost certainly that we will get a better idea on that soon. I am still unsure if we are getting only FP 5 but I think it would be a smart move from Nintendo and Sakurai to also at least hint to what may be coming for the post FP DLC

Well you'll get eyes that aren't usually watching Directs, that's true enough.

But the only thing predictable about Nintendo is that they're usually unpredictable.

 

[NessAtc.]

Maybe. But a cameo in a Final Smash is a little different than an AT. The AT actually interacts with fighters and has it’s own model. At least that may have been the way Sakurai saw it.

That's too semantic-y. If that was the case we never would have gotten Mac, Dark Samus, or Isabelle promoted at all

Or even Charizard for that matter

 

[StrawHatX]

That's too semantic-y. If that was the case we never would have gotten Mac, Dark Samus, or Isabelle promoted at all

Or even Charizard for that matter

Sure, but I thought we were talking about Japan. Chrom was a favorite over there. Those others were popular in the West.

Well.....maybe Isabelle was popular in both. I don’t know how much Japan loves AC.

 

[NessAtc.]

Sure, but I thought we were talking about Japan. Chrom was a favorite over there. Those others were popular in the West.

Well.....maybe Isabelle was popular in both. I don’t know how much Japan loves AC.

I was talking about the physical implementation, not the popularity
aside from that, Isaac was visible in Japan at the time of ballot anyway, just not overwhelmingly so. About same level as Cloud and Bayonetta.

 

[N3ON]

Just because you're content by a character being an AT doesn't mean you won't still request them to be playable at a later point. It's not mutually exclusive to either "fine with it" or "still pushing for it". I'm fine with Isaac being an AT, but I'd vote for him in a second on any future ballots.

 

[SonicLink125]

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Whenever I make these snapshots of Isaac, it just makes me want him as a playable character even more. The Golden Sun is burning inside me with a passion (lol)! We will make it happen!

 

[Gioka]

By the way guys I have this poll to know which kind of Golden Sun merch should I work on next, if you can vote it would be really helpful!
https://twitter.com/DDGioka/status/...r.com/DDGioka/status/1197208777860272131?s=20

 

[TempestSurge]

So this is going to be a long post, but I’ve been thinking a lot about Isaac’s chances and just want to see if somebody can change my mind about this.

First of all, I do agree that we COULD maybe get some form of Golden Sun game in the near future, and honestly that would be the biggest win for me. Even more than Isaac’s inclusion is Smash (which I obviously still want). And a new game could help with that. But unless it’s a remastered version or they just rerelease the games on the Switch I don’t know if any game would come out in time before Smash DLC ends.

Here’s the problem that I have when thinking about Isaac jumping to playable character. In Brawl he was made an AT even though this was during the time closest to the height of GS’s popularity. Then in Sm4sh he’s completely left out. Which seems a little odd since they likely already started working on the game around when DD came out. Guess those sales numbers really hit them?

At the end of Sm4sh we get a popularity poll essentially that Sakurai and his team get to measure characters’ wants from fans. We don’t know how well Isaac did, but I’m sure it was pretty good. So in Ultimate Sakurai takes characters from that list and starts making fan favorites characters. Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo are huge in fan demand from the Smash crowd and they finally get in. What about our Golden Boi? He gets his AT status back and a costume.

Yes, it’s more than Sm4sh, but obviously not what we were hoping. Even Geno STILL hasn’t had his costume return, and according to Insiders he’s constantly talked about as potentially DLC.

Now I don’t think it’s completely impossible Isaac could get promoted. But to be honest I’m starting to feel like Sakurai might be the kind of guy to think it would make more sense to add more fan favorites that aren’t in the game at all rather than promote a character from an AT. Because we all know Sakurai and his team see AT’s as a big deal and think fans are happy just to see their characters there.

I know Dark Samus and Little Mac made the jump even though it was a different game. I still think it’s more of a fan rule and not law. But like I said I think Sakurai might see Isaac as already being in Smash so he doesn’t need to make him a playable character.

Anyways I just felt like talking about it since the thread has been slow. I’m still hoping he jumps up in DLC. I’ll still believe. Just was wondering what others realistically feel about his promotion chances.

One thing we have to remember is Sakurai's vision for the roster. Despite Isaac's popularity, I think he was doomed to not be playable because Sakurai viewed him as a character that would not 'normally be in Smash'. A character that manipulates earth? Even Isaac's assist doesn't use earth psynergy, it's hard to imagine Isaac being on Sakurai's radar to implement as a possible inclusion in view of how much straight forward the movesets of other newcomers of Brawl were, there's also of course as mentioned priority for other characters on top of that, to ultimately make Isaac miss out but acknowledged as an assist.

Personally, I feel like Smash 4 at the very least should have been where Isaac made his debut. Sakurai had changed his vision on what sort of characters fit Smash like Megaman and Villager and was allowing newcomers with more gimmicks in their moveset and play much closure to their source material in general. Dark Dawn was released one year after the Wii Punch Out and the same year as Xenoblade. It was out for a good two years before Smash 4 started development. Nintendo even out of no where and no warning at all, all of a sudden dropped Golden Sun to the Wii U's virtual console a few months before Smash 4 was to come out. And yet for some reason Isaac's assist gets removed? How's that make a lick of sense lol. I get mad thinking about it cause Isaac's assist being removed pretty much fudged everything up and made him nearly fade into obscurity for the casual audience.

 

[SonicLink125]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

One thing we have to remember is Sakurai's vision for the roster. Despite Isaac's popularity, I think he was doomed to not be playable because Sakurai viewed him as a character that would not 'normally be in Smash'. A character that manipulates earth? Even Isaac's assist doesn't use earth psynergy, it's hard to imagine Isaac being on Sakurai's radar to implement as a possible inclusion in view of how much straight forward the movesets of other newcomers of Brawl were, there's also of course as mentioned priority for other characters on top of that, to ultimately make Isaac miss out but acknowledged as an assist.

Personally, I feel like Smash 4 at the very least should have been where Isaac made his debut. Sakurai had changed his vision on what sort of characters fit Smash like Megaman and Villager and was allowing newcomers with more gimmicks in their moveset and play much closure to their source material in general. Dark Dawn was released one year after the Wii Punch Out and the same year as Xenoblade. It was out for a good two years before Smash 4 started development. Nintendo even out of no where and no warning at all, all of a sudden dropped Golden Sun to the Wii U's virtual console a few months before Smash 4 was to come out. And yet for some reason Isaac's assist gets removed? How's that make a lick of sense lol. I get mad thinking about it cause Isaac's assist being removed pretty much fudged everything up and made him nearly fade into obscurity for the casual audience.

While it was frustrating that there was almost nothing of Golden Sun in Smash 4, it did get more people to vote for Isaac in the Ballot (according to exit polls) since people thought it was meant for Smash 4 and not Ultimate and had that stigma of “Assists are out” at the time.
What’s great right now is that more DLC is coming and anything can happen. As long as we continue our support for Isaac, we might see him playable soon. We’ll have to see. Remember, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[FlawedAI]

While it was frustrating that there was almost nothing of Golden Sun in Smash 4, it did get more people to vote for Isaac in the Ballot (according to exit polls) since people thought it was meant for Smash 4 and not Ultimate and had that stigma of “Assists are out” at the time.
What’s great right now is that more DLC is coming and anything can happen. As long as we continue our support for Isaac, we might see him playable soon. We’ll have to see. Remember, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

In a truly roundabout way, Isaac's Assist missing in Smash 4 may have been the single greatest blessing this fandom has ever received. It got people upset and they voted on the Ballot, and it showed. Then that was compounded when Isaac gloriously returned!... as an Assist again, making people even angrier than his Smash 4 removal.

 

[Kalaam]

Anger is giving us power.

 

[SirCamp]

Personally, I feel like Smash 4 at the very least should have been where Isaac made his debut. Sakurai had changed his vision on what sort of characters fit Smash like Megaman and Villager and was allowing newcomers with more gimmicks in their moveset and play much closure to their source material in general. Dark Dawn was released one year after the Wii Punch Out and the same year as Xenoblade. It was out for a good two years before Smash 4 started development. Nintendo even out of no where and no warning at all, all of a sudden dropped Golden Sun to the Wii U's virtual console a few months before Smash 4 was to come out. And yet for some reason Isaac's assist gets removed? How's that make a lick of sense lol. I get mad thinking about it cause Isaac's assist being removed pretty much fudged everything up and made him nearly fade into obscurity for the casual audience.

So I have thoughts on this. Granted I'm going to make a lot of assumptions here, but this is the only way that this really makes sense to me.

We know that Isaac has been a popular request among the community since Brawl. This likely lead to Isaac doing at least reasonably well in the character poll and even regardless of that Isaac was on Sakurai's mind even before that, at least inasmuch as Golden Sun got the Isaac AT and songs in Brawl. We also know that these was entirely removed come Smash 4, despite theoretically more things being in favor of Isaac (with the exception of Dark Dawn's less stellar reception). We also know that Smash 4 was Smash's (and perhaps' Sakurai's? not really sure here) first foray into DLC.

So my thoughts are this. Regardless of whatever else we are told, I imagine that DLC was planned for Smash 4 from the get go. And I suspect Golden Sun may have been part of that DLC plan. I would guess that Smash 4 got rushed out due to the dire situation the Wii U was in, and I suspect this was part of the reason characters like Lucas and Mewtwo didn't make the initial roster cut. So, obviously when they started DLC, they started with returning characters. Both because they were easiest to implement and were also heavily requested. They were shoe ins in every sense really. After that we got some more with Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta, and finally Corrin. This is where I think things went sour. They got more experimental and added third parties. And then the moment they added Corrin there was push back. And not only that, but the Wii U was still doing terribly, so if there were initially more plans for DLC that clearly would have been shelved while work on Ultimate got started. This would explain why Golden Sun content was so unceremoniously removed for no reason. Because there was a plan in place to add it back in at a time that made more sense (with Isaac DLC), but then circumstances changed and the plan had to be abandoned. I mean the ballot happened then we supposedly only got Bayonetta from it, but my guess is that by the time the results were tallied and they were getting work done the writing was on the wall as far as the Wii U was concerned, so even if they wanted to do more with it, they never had a chance.

But that leaves the question of why Isaac would be brought back as an AT for Ultimate. And honestly my suspicion there is that they knew by the time Ultimate came out that even more time would have passed since Dark Dawn and generally for these kinds of things, the hype dies down over time. So they reverted back to Golden Sun as secondary content since it's time had passed in their eyes, and likely other things simply took priority. This would explain why we only seem to get third party characters for DLC and why Golden Sun was treated the way that it was.

So assuming that any of that is true my hopes are first that we have a new Golden Sun game on the horizon and two that the fighters pass was the only DLC initially planned so that subsequently they could potentially take stock and reevaluate what to do with DLC going forward. Clearly the DLC was a runaway success and my hope is that this will encourage them to experiment more with the DLC formula so to speak. Personally this is how I would see Isaac getting added as DLC in the future. Also I would hope that the push back from the Isaac assist reveal would have some influence on future DLC decisions as well, but we shall see.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I imagine that DLC was planned for Smash 4 from the get go. And I suspect Golden Sun may have been part of that DLC plan. I would guess that Smash 4 got rushed out due to the dire situation the Wii U was in, and I suspect this was part of the reason characters like Lucas and Mewtwo didn't make the initial roster cut

1. I don't think it was as planned as early as Ultimate's was, when Corrin couldn't be too new for 4 DLC while Rex is too new for the Fighters Pass.
2. I actually blame having to work on 2 games for Lucas and Mewtwo not initially making the cut. I know that Lucas had to be a victim of 3DS limitations since his PK Starstorm had to be changed to work like Ness's.

 

[SirCamp]

1. I don't think it was as planned as early as Ultimate's was, when Corrin couldn't be too new for 4 DLC while Rex is too new for the Fighters Pass.
2. I actually blame having to work on 2 games for Lucas and Mewtwo not initially making the cut. I know that Lucas had to be a victim of 3DS limitations since his PK Starstorm had to be changed to work like Ness's.

As far as your comment about Corrin, don't make the mistake of assuming the situations were the same. For all we know Corrin and the reaction to him/her (or more likely the sales numbers) may have had a hand in why Sakurai felt Rex was too early. It's also possible Corrin was too early in Sakurai's eyes as well from the jump, but was forced into it for advertising purposes. But again if data didn't back up this strategy, the same may not have held true for Rex in Ultimate. Remember that Smash 4 was their first foray into Smash DLC, so just because things were done a certain way then doesn't mean that things will stay the same. They will respond to whatever data they have.

As for your second point I don't really know anything about that. Either way though, Sakurai clearly wanted them in the games and was not able, for whatever reason, to include them in base rosters. My broader point was that there are no more 1st party vets to add to Ultimate and the only time in the past that they had tried 1st newcomer DLC (unless you count Piranha Plant) with Corrin, there was push back and even perhaps underperforming sales (this is just a guess, but if it were the case it could explain some things). This could very well have scared them off of 1st newcomer DLC and/or characters that are too "new."

In fact this just made me think up a conspiracy theory. What if Piranha Plant is actually an experiment of sorts? Adding the character post release as free DLC so that it seems more appealing to early adopters (ie most hardcore fans), but for those that didn't get Smash in time acting as a sort of test for how 1st party characters can fare as DLC for a Smash game in a healthier ecosystem. This is definitely a leap, but it is interesting to think about and could even explain why Piranha Plant was chosen. If people end up happily shelling out for a Piranha Plant of all things, that would seem to bode well for more defined/popular characters no?

Really though this is mostly just me thinking out loud. I don't really know anything or have any real insight. I just think that the way Golden Sun content has been handled between 4 and Ultimate has been suspicious. And that was simply a theory for why that might have been the case. There are many ways that I could be completely off base. Hence the caveat about assumptions.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

As far as your comment about Corrin, don't make the mistake of assuming the situations were the same. For all we know Corrin and the reaction to him/her (or more likely the sales numbers) may have had a hand in why Sakurai felt Rex was too early. It's also possible Corrin was too early in Sakurai's eyes as well from the jump, but was forced into it for advertising purposes. But again if data didn't back up this strategy, the same may not have held true for Rex in Ultimate. Remember that Smash 4 was their first foray into Smash DLC, so just because things were done a certain way then doesn't mean that things will stay the same. They will respond to whatever data they have.

As for your second point I don't really know anything about that. Either way though, Sakurai clearly wanted them in the games and was not able, for whatever reason, to include them in base rosters. My broader point was that there are no more 1st party vets to add to Ultimate and the only time in the past that they had tried 1st newcomer DLC (unless you count Piranha Plant) with Corrin, there was push back and even perhaps underperforming sales (this is just a guess, but if it were the case it could explain some things). This could very well have scared them off of 1st newcomer DLC and/or characters that are too "new."

In fact this just made me think up a conspiracy theory. What if Piranha Plant is actually an experiment of sorts? Adding the character post release as free DLC so that it seems more appealing to early adopters (ie most hardcore fans), but for those that didn't get Smash in time acting as a sort of test for how 1st party characters can fare as DLC for a Smash game in a healthier ecosystem. This is definitely a leap, but it is interesting to think about and could even explain why Piranha Plant was chosen. If people end up happily shelling out for a Piranha Plant of all things, that would seem to bode well for more defined/popular characters no?

Really though this is mostly just me thinking out loud. I don't really know anything or have any real insight. I just think that the way Golden Sun content has been handled between 4 and Ultimate has been suspicious. And that was simply a theory for why that might have been the case. There are many ways that I could be completely off base. Hence the caveat about assumptions.

Sakurai did say he was convinced to put Corrin in.
And I still think the Isaac AT might have been cut in 4 due to 3DS limitations.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

The even more suspicious thing to me over Isaac's assist trophy being missing from Smash 4 was his lack of a trophy in general. They didn't even bother porting over the Brawl model as a trophy in the 3DS version considering that game had a focus on the handheld side of Nintendo. Ironically Golden Sun had more content in Smash Wii U which was more concerned with representation for home console games

 

[TempestSurge]

In a truly roundabout way, Isaac's Assist missing in Smash 4 may have been the single greatest blessing this fandom has ever received. It got people upset and they voted on the Ballot, and it showed. Then that was compounded when Isaac gloriously returned!... as an Assist again, making people even angrier than his Smash 4 removal.

Yeah I did feel in regards to Isaac's assist being missing helped push for his votes on the ballot to be featured in the game.

Though now I sort of see how Isaac's assist being missing gave Nintendo an easy out to just respond to the outcry on the ballot by simply returning the assist that should have never been cut in the first place (though I'm sure it had to do with 3DS limitations as well). Yet seeing as Isaac is the only Brawl assist to make the jump to Ultimate (sans Gray Fox for Snake) on top of Isaac getting new moves added to his assist. Like why do all this extra stuff? Why not just make Isaac playable? lol.

If Isaac was an assist in 4, imagine the backlash that could have possibly made Isaac one of the assist promotions for Ultimate. Then when the ballot came around, Nintendo would dang well know our votes were for a playable Isaac, not for simply his assist to return. Really, if Isaac's in this post pass DLC this would have been one heck of a journey.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Look at that! We are just 13 pages away from surpassing page 1000.

 

[DogManStar]

It’s really hard to say why Isaac was cut as an AT in 4. I still think it could be technical reasons personally, but we’ll probably never know.