Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Literally coming from the man himself

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[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I adored seeing Sakurai break down the history and overview of SNK and their games with such passion. He didn't need to but he wanted to show outsiders why Terry and his games could have some appeal to them. I would not be mad if they talked about every newcomer's origins at great length like this. With such an extensive fanbase like Smash's, offering insight like that is such a great tribute and a gift to helping these franchises grow.

Imagine how Golden Sun could benefit from showing footage of epic sequences like the Djinn summons and the Fusion Dragon, or describing the gaming library of Camelot. There are probably more than a few casuals who would be interested in trying it out knowing that they've made a number of successful Mario sports games.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

After seeing today's presentation, I can without a doubt say that Isaac will someday make it into the Smash roster.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

"When we released the original 64 version of Super Smash Brothers, I was often asked "Who is Samus?". Whether or not the character is fun to play as is more important than whether the character's new or old, or whether the character is recognizable to everyone."

Good to hear that. Remember that, contrary to what some people believe, Sakurai is an artist driven by passion, not some executive looking at charts and trends obsessing about maximising profit. We got characters like because Sakurai genuinely feels characters like these add to the "character game" focus that Sakurai has been known to care about the most, wanting to honour the characters and games they come from.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

After seeing today's presentation, I can without a doubt say that Isaac will someday make it into the Smash roster.

The problem is whether he joins in this game or not. And it's better to join in this game.

 

[Xenigma]

I had a slightly different takeaway from this presentation. Yeah, it's great that Sakurai is willing to overlook general popularity in the name of a good character, but what really got me today was the sheer passion he showed for SNK, Fatal Fury, and King of Fighters. He sounded like someone who has been a genuine fan of those games for a long time, not something he researched purely for Smash, and thus the push for Terry to be playable may well have been from Sakurai himself. To that end, I remain nervous about that unknown factor of whether Sakurai has played or otherwise cares about the Golden Sun series, because his own advocacy could absolutely make the difference between playable Isaac and the series staying on the bench indefinitely.

Anyway, putting the cynicism aside: I loved the presentation today. I've been a fighting game fan for a very long time, King of Fighters absolutely included, and while it's not surprising to see them go above and beyond on DLC at this point, I was still blown away how much this pack is a love letter to the FGC. The "walls" on the new stage, all the cameos, the super moves, the three-character teams in Classic, and most especially the 50 songs (further proof how silly Midgar's two song list is). Can't touch the DLC until late tonight at best, but I'm definitely looking forward to ARE YOU OKAY? BUSTAH WOLF!

 

[clearandsweet]

the push for Terry to be playable may well have been from Sakurai himself. To that end, I remain nervous about that unknown factor of whether Sakurai has played or otherwise cares about the Golden Sun series, because his own advocacy could absolutely make the difference between playable Isaac and the series staying on the bench indefinitely.

Yeah that's the impression I kind of got as well. Not like Marth, Metaknight or Palutena had to wait very long to get into Smash and those are all franchises Sakurai has adopted or vocally been a huge fan of - just like KoF. Still, at this point, there's not much to be done for how little or how much Sakurai personally likes Golden Sun. I mean, he's never said he particularly loves DK, but here were are with a K. Rool buff patch, all purely off of fan demand.

And yeah sweet Wise One, I don't care one bit about King of Fighters but just seeing all the detail like how Terry's hat flies off when he dies in stamina mode... makes me yearn for that for Golden Sun. The same thing happened in Banjo's reveal showcase too. The entire cameo section when he was explaining lore and backstories I was 100% thinking about how amazing that would be to see for stuff I actually care about. AND IN THE BACKGROUND OF THE VENUS LIGHTHOUSE WE CAN SEE KRADEN, AN ALCHEMY SCHOLAR, WITH SHEBA AND FELIX WHO WILL THEN JUMP OFF THE LIGHTHOUSE WHEN IT BEGINS TO CRUM.... ugh. Makes me hurt wanting it so bad.

At the end of the day, it doesn't change anything about our position. I'm still of the mindset that Golden Sun 4/Switch news and Smash Bros Golden Sun representation will be linked, and I'm still of the mindset that they are indeed still happening.

 

[SonicLink125]

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You heard it hear folks! Isaac is perfection! lol

 

[THE 6r]

Playing Terry reminds me of how much I wish that Issac doesn't have command imputs because I'm terrible at using them

 

[N3ON]

Playing Terry reminds me of how much I wish that Issac doesn't have command imputes because I'm terrible at using them

Well then you probably shouldn’t have gotten into a fighting game like Golden Sun.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Well then you probably shouldn’t have gotten into a fighting game like Golden Sun.

I unironically would dig a Golden Sun themed fighting game. If the series ever gets revived and becomes a huge hit again that will be my top choice for a spinoff

 

[PrinceGal3n]

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

 

[Guynamednelson]

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

To be fair, the stage's gimmick could conflict with Move.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

He and a few others are unusable in KoF Stadium.

 

[Ura]

To be fair, the stage's gimmick could conflict with Move.

Yeah this. I just tried this on Battlefield and Isaac's AT is still there.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

Yeah we discussed situations like this happening when the game came out, some assist trophies aren't compatible on certain stages like Alucard in Wii Fit Studio. The ability for the dev team to toggle assist trophies on or off under certain conditions is one of the points supporting assist trophy promotions as well

 

[FlawedAI]

The fact that the dev team programmed the ability for Assists to toggle on/off is one of the biggest reasons I think Assists don't deconfirm. This ability makes it so easy to just set a boolean internally like this: "if Isaac is selected, Isaac Assist spawn rate = 0". It would literally be that easy.

 

[StrawHatX]

I’ll admit I honestly didn’t care too much about Terry, but he’s a ton of fun to play and I love his stage’s mechanics.

I love how Sakurai can make you really like a character you would never think you’d care about.

Really excited to see who FP #5 is. Still holding out hope Isaac gets in post pass. The possibilities for his move set with psynergy and djinn would be insane.

 

[N3ON]

The fact that the dev team programmed the ability for Assists to toggle on/off is one of the biggest reasons I think Assists don't deconfirm. This ability makes it so easy to just set a boolean internally like this: "if Isaac is selected, Isaac Assist spawn rate = 0". It would literally be that easy.

ATs not becoming playable has never been a hurdle due to programming, fwiw.

If it's truly a thing, it's because it's a principle Sakurai has.

 

[StrawHatX]

ATs not becoming playable has never been a hurdle due to programming, fwiw.

If it's truly a thing, it's because it's a principle Sakurai has.

Agreed. And we have seen AT’s get promoted. Obviously it hasn’t been in the same game, but I think we can all agree that if any Smash game was going to change that it would be Ultimate.

Sakurai is making this game a love letter to the fans and wants to support it further into the future. And seeing how this is the best selling Smash game ever and the Switch is becoming the best selling Nintendo console ever both probably aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[THE 6r]

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

The fact that this is a thing is good for us because it proves that the devs are willing to toggle the potential assist trophy list and deactivate some based on circumstances.

 

[N3ON]

Agreed. And we have seen AT’s get promoted. Obviously it hasn’t been in the same game, but I think we can all agree that if any Smash game was going to change that it would be Ultimate.

Sakurai is making this game a love letter to the fans and wants to support it further into the future. And seeing how this is the best selling Smash game ever and the Switch is becoming the best selling Nintendo console ever both probably aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.

I suppose part of it is contingent on how far they choose to go with DLC.

The fact that this is a thing is good for us because it proves that the devs are willing to toggle the potential assist trophy list and deactivate some based on circumstances.

It's not like this is new info, though.

 

[DogManStar]

Yeah there's no doubt that the programmers could easily turn off ATs if there was going to be one made playable. If that character appeared onstage they could just disable that AT for that match. If they wanted to they could probably even replace Isaac's AT with Matthew or some other character who could do something similar like Garet or maybe even Jenna. I don't think that'll happen though, if Isaac's gonna be made playable at this point, I think they'll just leave the AT untouched.

 

[Pinguino21v]

After seeing today's presentation, I can without a doubt say that Isaac will someday make it into the Smash roster.

May I ask how are you that certain? That doesn't feel better or worst than before.
The pro: Sakurai mentionned that "fun" is more important than recognition.
The con: still no positive signs for first parties to get in future DLC, especially with Bamco entering again in the speculation game with Heihachi mii costume missing. There's still a impressive number of third parties characters still in play, how could of mere first party find a spot there?

thus the push for Terry to be playable may well have been from Sakurai himself. To that end, I remain nervous about that unknown factor of whether Sakurai has played or otherwise cares about the Golden Sun series, because his own advocacy could absolutely make the difference between playable Isaac and the series staying on the bench indefinitely.

Exactly. Sakurai is known for being biased toward early home console (NES and SNES). I don't think he has ever been a "GameBoy gamer", and especially a GBA one. That doesn't bode well for all the missing series (GS, RH, AW...).

At the end of the day, it doesn't change anything about our position. I'm still of the mindset that Golden Sun 4/Switch news and Smash Bros Golden Sun representation will be linked, and I'm still of the mindset that they are indeed still happening.

Hopefully.

YA'LL. Check Training Mode. I checked the Assist Trophy List to pick my own to use. ISAAC IS MISSING.

To be fair, the stage's gimmick could conflict with Move.

if Isaac's gonna be made playable at this point, I think they'll just leave the AT untouched.

That's one more example of Assist Trophies being locked out of specific stages. But I agree with DogManStar , if an AT is upgraded, I can see his AT form stay available, like Chrom can be everywhere at the same time.

I’ll admit I honestly didn’t care too much about Terry, but he’s a ton of fun to play and I love his stage’s mechanics.

That's my point of view too. I didn't know neither the character nor the game, but I'm liking what he looks and how he feels (on the contrary to Banjo). I need to train with inputs however.

 

[Hydewell]

So, a lot of the stream was an explanation of who was Terry and SNK, basically lol Despite revisionists, SNK was a big company at the arcades times, but nowadays they were completely obscure (I mean, some years ago they only ported old titles and did some neo geo machines without doing any new games, didn't they?) and in the last two years they restarted to do a new games. So, I guess the offer to include Terry was like a "holy sign" just because they gained a lot of exposure (their last games didn't even hit the 1 million sold), so I understand the facilities they gave, including the 50 tracks xD

Anyways, regarding the stream (which I saw some hours after, so maybe I missed some things), Sakurai highlighted again their intentions to introduce new series in Smash Bros (when he said the fact they added 50 tracks is a special occasion and don't expect them with other ones), so I guess it'll depend on Sakurai if Golden Sun is well-introduced as a series or not in this game.
Also, the "It's more important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable" that some people like to highlight... For me, it doesn't mean anything. All really depends on Sakurai, and if he has a bias for a character or series, he will justify whatever he wants. Sakurai literally rejected characters for being obscure (Takamaru and Ayumi for example). That statement is just for Terry and a response for the hundred of tweets saying "Who is this guy" when he was announced and mildly leaked. So this statement it's more for the strange picks he loves to do (or maybe for 3rd party) rather than Nintendo characters, when he literally said he asks what plans they have with the franchise rather than the originality of the character itself.

And Camelot related, Teppei Kamata, the art director for Mario Tennis Ultra Smash and a battle character designer for Golden Sun Dark Dawn joined to 1-Up studios. We already knew he didn't take part in Mario Tennis Aces, but we didn't know if he was working in a parallel project of Camelot or not.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

May I ask how are you that certain? That doesn't feel better or worst than before.
The pro: Sakurai mentionned that "fun" is more important than recognition.
The con: still no positive signs for first parties to get in future DLC, especially with Bamco entering again in the speculation game with Heihachi mii costume missing. There's still a impressive number of third parties characters still in play, how could of mere first party find a spot there?

I'm talking about the chances of Isaac ever being playable in Smash in general in future titles, not just Ultimate.

 

[StrawHatX]

May I ask how are you that certain? That doesn't feel better or worst than before.
The pro: Sakurai mentionned that "fun" is more important than recognition.
The con: still no positive signs for first parties to get in future DLC, especially with Bamco entering again in the speculation game with Heihachi mii costume missing. There's still a impressive number of third parties characters still in play, how could of mere first party find a spot there?


Exactly. Sakurai is known for being biased toward early home console (NES and SNES). I don't think he has ever been a "GameBoy gamer", and especially a GBA one. That doesn't bode well for all the missing series (GS, RH, AW...).


Hopefully.




That's one more example of Assist Trophies being locked out of specific stages. But I agree with DogManStar , if an AT is upgraded, I can see his AT form stay available, like Chrom can be everywhere at the same time.


That's my point of view too. I didn't know neither the character nor the game, but I'm liking what he looks and how he feels (on the contrary to Banjo). I need to train with inputs however.

I’m curious as to why so many people think first parties have no shot in future DLC. It made perfect sense to have the Fighter Pass be third party only to advertise it and draw more people in. They’ve done that.

Post pass they can now bring in more first party characters to satisfy fans, as Sakurai alluded to in the Banjo video. And they can add more third party too if they want. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I find it really frustrating how so many people are so dismissive of Nintendo IP’s getting more representation in a game series that started off as Nintendo’s All-stars coming together in a fighting game. There’s no way Sakurai just tells Nintendo fans to F off, and it would make no sense for Nintendo to not advertise some of their own series they would make all the money from.

And best of all, neither of them have to go through all that copyright BS to do it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I’m curious as to why so many people think first parties have no shot in future DLC. It made perfect sense to have the Fighter Pass be third party only to advertise it and draw more people in. They’ve done that.

Post pass they can now bring in more first party characters to satisfy fans, as Sakurai alluded to in the Banjo video. And they can add more third party too if they want. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I find it really frustrating how so many people are so dismissive of Nintendo IP’s getting more representation in a game series that started off as Nintendo’s All-stars coming together in a fighting game. There’s no way Sakurai just tells Nintendo fans to F off, and it would make no sense for Nintendo to not advertise some of their own series they would make all the money from.

And best of all, neither of them have to go through all that copyright BS to do it.

Well apparently... 3RD PARTY CHARACTERS MAKE MONEY!!! SO NINTENDO ISN'T GOING TO GIVE NINTENDO FANS THEIR CHARACTERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY!!! - The Internet

 

[clearandsweet]

I’m curious as to why so many people think first parties have no shot in future DLC

I find it really frustrating how so many people are so dismissive of Nintendo IP’s getting more representation in a game series that started off as Nintendo’s All-stars coming together in a fighting game. There’s no way Sakurai just tells Nintendo fans to F off, and it would make no sense for Nintendo to not advertise some of their own series they would make all the money from.

I think the largest part is we don't know the form of the post-FP content. Echos? Stages? Standalone music? How long will it continue? Surely it's financially viable to continue for _quite_ some time, but there are functionally no limits for what they can do for it. There are no patterns to go off.

Now this, granted, is internal to IS, but if you bought Fire Emblem: Three Houses, you got a free male Byleth in Fire Emblem Heroes, and that promotion was all freaking over FEH. Now imagine, if you will, that you could buy Isaac in Smash Ultimate for $5.99... but for $54 more you could just buy Golden Sun + TLA Remastered for Switch and get Isaac in Smash Bros Ultimate included with your purchase.

God, the cross-promotional synergy. Guarantee three million sales, easy. I know you've seen all these people that are like "welp I'm going back and playing dragonquest/banjokazooie/persona/castlevania because they're in Smash and I want to check it out..." I guess you could do this for anything, like Waddlee Dee for a new Kirby, Paper Mario, ect.

Then consider Smash has even done this in the past with with itself re: Mewtwo in Smash 4, Piranha Plant in Ult. The longer we go without hearing anything GS in Smash or anything from Camelot, the more this seems like an actual possibility and not just me fantasizing. This is actually a freaking great idea tho.

...

See the trick is to make as many predictions as possible so you look like a savant after it comes true. The "shotgun" approach to wisdom.

 

[StrawHatX]

Well apparently... 3RD PARTY CHARACTERS MAKE MONEY!!! SO NINTENDO ISN'T GOING TO GIVE NINTENDO FANS THEIR CHARACTERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY!!! - The Internet

It’s hilarious. Especially when you consider it’s likely Nintendo has to split the profits with whatever third party character they get with the company who owns them.

Don’t have that problem with first party characters.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

It’s hilarious. Especially when you consider it’s likely Nintendo has to split the profits with whatever third party character they get with the company who owns them.

Don’t have that problem with first party characters.

Even if the big N thinks it isn't worth looking into their catalogue anymore when it comes to the DLC, they can't overlook the fact that characters like Isaac, Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Krystal, Dixie Kong, Skull Kid, ect would make them a ton of money.

 

[Organization XIII]

It’s hilarious. Especially when you consider it’s likely Nintendo has to split the profits with whatever third party character they get with the company who owns them.

Don’t have that problem with first party characters.

I mean they don't but they also just put in 4 3rd party characters and 99% probable it's going to be 5 so clearly the money they are splitting means little in comparison to how much they are making.

 

[StrawHatX]

I mean they don't but they also just put in 4 3rd party characters and 99% probable it's going to be 5 so clearly the money they are splitting means little in comparison to how much they are making.

Well, I figured Nintendo was more interested in getting games by those companies on the Switch. That’s the positive of allowing guest characters into your extremely popular game. They get to sell DragonQuest, FF, and all those other popular titles on their console.

 

[Organization XIII]

Well, I figured Nintendo was more interested in getting games by those companies on the Switch. That’s the positive of allowing guest characters into your extremely popular game. They get to sell DragonQuest, FF, and all those other popular titles on their console.

Well while DQ had an element of promotion the rest didn't. Like for p5 some spinoffs are coming to Switch but I don't think that matters. Cloud was added well before the FF ports so they meant nothing. I don't remember if a port of SF2 came around near Ryu but I guess I wouldn't be surprised since Capcom has ported it a number of times but none of the current entries are anywhere near Switch and were probably never even considered for that poor Wii U. Terry came way after SNK started their "put all the arcade source code we saved on Switch" campaign so that likely wasn't a part of the deal. With Llyod being 5 and Arise missing Switch I doubt ports were the focus. The pass was mostly just what Sakurai liked and that seems to matter a lot more than deals and recognizability. Or maybe all the support is still in the pipeline but for now there's not really evidence to suggest these 3rd party additions were more than Smash additions for addition's sake.
I am fully confident that first party DLC will happen but there are of course reasons to justify considering why they wouldn't.

 

[StrawHatX]

Well while DQ had an element of promotion the rest didn't. Like for p5 some spinoffs are coming to Switch but I don't think that matters. Cloud was added well before the FF ports so they meant nothing. I don't remember if a port of SF2 came around near Ryu but I guess I wouldn't be surprised since Capcom has ported it a number of times but none of the current entries are anywhere near Switch and were probably never even considered for that poor Wii U. Terry came way after SNK started their "put all the arcade source code we saved on Switch" campaign so that likely wasn't a part of the deal. With Llyod being 5 and Arise missing Switch I doubt ports were the focus. The pass was mostly just what Sakurai liked and that seems to matter a lot more than deals and recognizability. Or maybe all the support is still in the pipeline but for now there's not really evidence to suggest these 3rd party additions were more than Smash additions for addition's sake.
I am fully confident that first party DLC will happen but there are of course reasons to justify considering why they wouldn't.

I guess I should have worded it differently. I think in general it’s just to be on good terms with those companies. Whether we get ports right away or at a later date.

 

[SonicLink125]

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Fun fact for you all today! It’s weird that some spirit battles can’t use the actual Mii costumes they make for them. Guess the paywall is that strong, huh? lol

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Well apparently... 3RD PARTY CHARACTERS MAKE MONEY!!! SO NINTENDO ISN'T GOING TO GIVE NINTENDO FANS THEIR CHARACTERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY!!! - The Internet

Apparently, didn't exist as DLC for Smash 4.

Real talk, though, the people that make these kind of assumptions don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Remember when was dismissed as a character that wouldn't score well on the ballot because supposedly only a vocal minority wanted him? Yeah, these arguments pretty much another example of unfound, unjustified fan assumption. When some people say that first-party characters wouldn't be hype, they really mean that they wouldn't be hype for them. They just confuse their opinion for being that of the grand majority of Smash fans.

At the very least I can definitively gurantee you that Waluigi as a hypothetical DLC character would have more impact and hype at this point than most third-party characters suggested here.

 

[Organization XIII]

I wonder if Corrin actually is the reason for the 3rd party focus. Many were not exactly excited for him to join and I'm sure the third parties got more sales. I hope that's not the case but it's a secret fear I have. Maybe with the second wave they'll test the waters with first parties again and this time pick a better choice, assuming that's what happened anyway.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't remember if a port of SF2 came around near Ryu but I guess I wouldn't be surprised since Capcom has ported it a number of times but none of the current entries are anywhere near Switch and were probably never even considered for that poor Wii U.

The Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection was ported to the Switch. I think Ryu was added simply because of SF's popularity, as there is nothing about him that could imply he's meant to promote SFV especially since it got rid of the Focus Attack.

I wonder if Corrin actually is the reason for the 3rd party focus. Many were not exactly excited for him to join and I'm sure the third parties got more sales. I hope that's not the case but it's a secret fear I have. Maybe with the second wave they'll test the waters with first parties again and this time pick a better choice, assuming that's what happened anyway.

There are reasons for people to prefer Bayonetta other than her being owned by Sega. She was pretty much considered a Nintendo character by then anyway.

 

[StrawHatX]

I wonder if Corrin actually is the reason for the 3rd party focus. Many were not exactly excited for him to join and I'm sure the third parties got more sales. I hope that's not the case but it's a secret fear I have. Maybe with the second wave they'll test the waters with first parties again and this time pick a better choice, assuming that's what happened anyway.

I would hope they’re not that naive. Corrin had everything to do with him/her being another FE character, and the last DLC character at that which just made people even more angrier.