Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Ninjaed]

Isaac came really close to being playable. If Sakurai wants this to be the ultimate Smash to improve upon for as long as possible, why not make Isaac playable if he was already really close?

Because there needs to be more. Blastoise, Krystal, Dixie Kong, Heihachi, Geno... they all came really close to be playable but were scrapped for some reason or another. It mostly boiled down to "too much effort for not enough". Of course, circumstances can change over time, but they're not going to become playable simply because they almost were in the past.

So basically, if we can prove Isaac or Golden Sun is now worth the effort, there will be nothing stopping Sakurai from making that a reality. And right now, people have gone from "Isaac is a dead meme" to "hey you know what? let's discuss his chances after all". People who liked the games figured "he's no chance" before, now they're reconsidering that and may support the effort in the future. Now we need to keep that momentum going! The more we gather, the bigger the movement and the higher Isaac's chances!

 

[SPEN18]

Lloyd is a really strong candidate right now with or without the voice acting thing being for Smash.

---

If they take another character exclusively from the ballot (like K. Rool and Banjo) then I think it would almost surely be Isaac. I guess it could also be Geno or someone but if they're just taking characters right off the top of the ballot (which might actually be the case: K. Rool and Banjo were the only bonafide ballot picks, and the polls seem to agree that these two could very easily have been 1-2 on the ballot) then I think Isaac is left on the top of that stack.

Everybody's been saying that they're not just picking off the top of the ballot but they might actually be doing this, just not at the rate we would've expected. #1 for the base game, #2 for the first round of DLC...#3 for the second round of DLC? The rest of the "popular" picks have clearly been mined from underneath other characters, so perhaps they're intentionally waiting before taking the next character off the top of the ballot, while picking and choosing in the meantime (you know, to space things out). Of course it's just a wild guess and there's no guarantee that they're doing this but it's entirely possible. Anybody who's convinced that Ridley, Simon, etc. are true ballot characters probably wouldn't be able to take this as a possibility but I'd guess that the ballot was a secondary reason for those characters making it. Again, it's still all very unlikely but just an idea.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Lloyd is a really strong candidate right now with or without the voice acting thing being for Smash.

---

If they take another character exclusively from the ballot (like K. Rool and Banjo) then I think it would almost surely be Isaac. I guess it could also be Geno or someone but if they're just taking characters right off the top of the ballot (which might actually be the case: K. Rool and Banjo were the only bonafide ballot picks, and the polls seem to agree that these two could very easily have been 1-2 on the ballot) then I think Isaac is left on the top of that stack.

Everybody's been saying that they're not just picking off the top of the ballot but they might actually be doing this, just not at the rate we would've expected. #1 for the base game, #2 for the first round of DLC...#3 for the second round of DLC? The rest of the "popular" picks have clearly been mined from underneath other characters, so perhaps they're intentionally waiting before taking the next character off the top of the ballot, while picking and choosing in the meantime (you know, to space things out). Of course it's just a wild guess and there's no guarantee that they're doing this but it's entirely possible. Anybody who's convinced that Ridley, Simon, etc. are true ballot characters probably wouldn't be able to take this as a possibility but I'd guess that the ballot was a secondary reason for those characters making it. Again, it's still all very unlikely but just an idea.

I think Geno will be next in line in terms of the long fan requested characters because even Sakurai want's him in and he tried to get him in back in Brawl, but probably couldn't because of Square-Enix. That's the one thing I would say Geno probably has above Isaac is Sakurai bias.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think Geno will be next in line in terms of the long fan requested characters because even Sakurai want's him in and he tried to get him in back in Brawl, but probably couldn't because of Square-Enix. That's the one thing I would say Geno probably has above Isaac is Sakurai bias.

The thing here is that Geno is one of the few we do know he wanted before. The keyword being "know". We don't know if there's any other characters he wants that aren't in yet. For all we know, Isaac could very well be one of them.

And again, with how much attention was given to K Rool and Banjo as per being fan requested, I find it hard to believe Sakurai thinks the assist and spirits is just "enough", especially when we didn't get a new song to go along with it.

 

[FlintIke]

Isaac came really close to being playable. If Sakurai wants this to be the ultimate Smash to improve upon for as long as possible, why not make Isaac playable if he was already really close?

I really do hope he will include a new mechanic where ATs that are currently selected as a fighter won't appear for that match.

If that's possible I would hope that Sakurai considers that option. It would even be a little bit less work since a really high quality model of Isaac is already in the game. They just really need to give him the rest to make him an actual fighter.

Let us see where the line for smash is crossed. Cause at the moment I only believe that non-videogame-characters have a 0% chance (which Sakurai confirmed so there is that). Thanks to Terry there are but a few characters which I think are impossible but for the most part anything goes from now on.

EDIT:

The thing here is that Geno is one of the few we do know he wanted before. The keyword being "know". We don't know if there's any other characters he wants that aren't in yet. For all we know, Isaac could very well be one of them.

And again, with how much attention was given to K Rool and Banjo as per being fan requested, I find it hard to believe Sakurai thinks the assist and spirits is just "enough", especially when we didn't get a new song to go along with it.

Since Isaac got the full treatment (AT, Spirits, Mii Costume) I think there is no way that he was lacking any kind of support. So I hope if there is gonna be another kind of Ballot (or focus on Fan Requests) we still might have a shot to get out boy in. I could see Sakurai making a few exceptions to AT due to fan demand.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I really do hope he will include a new mechanic where ATs that are currently selected as a fighter won't appear for that match.

Besides the Great Bay not having two Moons thing, they made it so Gray Fox says different things when Snake is around. Surely they can program an AT to not show up depending on the fighters.

Also, here's a fun fact: Isaac's AT model was used to make the Mii costume, judging by their texture maps:

Spoiler

AT:

Mii:

This seems to be mostly unique to Isaac, as I've checked various other characters that are both ATs and Mii costumes, and except for Skull Kid they seem to have made completely different models for each.

 

[IFSFFS]

At the same time, considering that Isaac has spirits, an AT, and a Mii Costume, It only shows just how close Isaac really was to being playable. I think this is one thing a lot of people ignore in speculation, the character got a lot of content in base game because they were on the cusp of being a playable character, but there was not enough time in all likelihood.

This is the important part. Deconfirmation bandwagon only happens because of the thoght that the character CANNOT happen. I think it´s our duty to start talking in these terms. Is not that it´s impossible, but that it´s so close to happening we have to keep pushing for it.

On a side note, goldensunday carriers: Maybe, aside from the physical letters it´s a good idea to attach the emails with online content of people being let down by Isaacs absence, and also messages of people asking for it. There is a ton out there, and giving them a nice summary is a way to show them that the demand is not an echo chamber of sorts, but one that comes from a wide variety of fans across the internet.

For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjGDe2AHkUk
Showing them a nice compilation of reactions for Isaac trophy inclusion is a nice way of disinguising him from other demands. You can see that Waluigi, supposedly having also a loud and demanding fanbase, has this reaction compilation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3xAh3Cbcxs
where you can see that people are not halfway as upset, most of them just take it as a meme, and even some rejoyce in his decomfirmation

We need to show them we are not stopping until the very end.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

@PushDustIn was correct the "29/30" extra spots are NOT filled with alt costumes, its been checked. I admit I'm no dataminer so I was going off what I heard from multiple places but that was apparently false info echoed around.

— PapaGenos (@GenosPapa) September 24, 2019

Well looks like the alternate costumes don't take up slots

 

[GoodGrief741]

@PushDustIn was correct the "29/30" extra spots are NOT filled with alt costumes, its been checked. I admit I'm no dataminer so I was going off what I heard from multiple places but that was apparently false info echoed around.

— PapaGenos (@GenosPapa) September 24, 2019

Well looks like the alternate costumes don't take up slots

Well then why are there two kinds of slots with different amounts?

 

[SonicLink125]

Besides the Great Bay not having two Moons thing, they made it so Gray Fox says different things when Snake is around. Surely they can program an AT to not show up depending on the fighters.

Also, here's a fun fact: Isaac's AT model was used to make the Mii costume, judging by their texture maps:

Spoiler

AT:

Mii:

This seems to be mostly unique to Isaac, as I've checked various other characters that are both ATs and Mii costumes, and except for Skull Kid they seem to have made completely different models for each.

That’s a neat find! But if that’s the case, then they can easily update Isaac’s model when making him playable. People say he’s the (if not, one of the) only ATs that’s very low poly compared to the other ATs so “it wouldn’t work” to build him from it. But Isaac’s Mii costume is much higher poly/quality. If it was made from Isaac’s AT, then clearly they can do it. I’m mumbling here, but hopefully this makes sense.

 

[FlawedAI]

Isaac's Mii Costume has higher quality textures, but they'd be stupid to not at least work off of Isaac's Assist model to make him playable. Even if some major overhauling is needed (and hopefully a new, unique hand model and not a recolored Master Hand) Isaac still has quite a bit to lessen his load if he made the jump to playable. All he needs is the go-ahead from Sakurai to get it done, and I firmly believe he's being worked on as we speak.

 

[Nidre]

One thing I just thought of; for characters who are already in the game as possible profile pics within online, like Isaac, maybe they're taking note of who gets picked the most as a measure of popularity. If I was programming the game I'd certainly be keeping track of that.

 

[SPEN18]

I think Geno will be next in line in terms of the long fan requested characters because even Sakurai want's him in and he tried to get him in back in Brawl, but probably couldn't because of Square-Enix. That's the one thing I would say Geno probably has above Isaac is Sakurai bias.

But my proposition was that they're taking characters right off the top of the ballot in terms of (more or less) raw votes, but just taking their time in doing so, only adding in maybe one per speculation season.

In this hypothetical scenario "Sakurai bias" wouldn't matter. And based on the information I've seen, it seems that Isaac clearly outperformed Geno internationally.

 

[THE 6r]

Isaac came really close to being playable. If Sakurai wants this to be the ultimate Smash to improve upon for as long as possible, why not make Isaac playable if he was already really close?

Same. It would be reasonable to go back to finish some of the unfinished ideas that he put in the game.

 

[smashkirby]

Same. It would be reasonable to go back to finish some of the unfinished ideas that he put in the game.

You know, considering Sakurai's comment about how Smash Ultimate doesn't exactly have characters who were cut due to time constraints, I wonder if some characters are being saved for DLC...

 

[KoopaSaki]

My hopes for Isaac are rising given all the positive outlook this speculation is having and I sure hope that Isaac can in fact make it into smash next year. I just wonder if Sakurai has any history with golden sun as far as whether he has played the series fully or just played it for 10 minutes. Also if he was planned to playable but got shafted as an AT due to time constraints, I sure hope he intended to bring Isaac to playable later on or maybe he did not plan that and now is given the huge fan outcry we have been doing for the past 10 months.

 

[FlintIke]

My hopes for Isaac are rising given all the positive outlook this speculation is having and I sure hope that Isaac can in fact make it into smash next year. I just wonder if Sakurai has any history with golden sun as far as whether he has played the series fully or just played it for 10 minutes. Also if he was planned to playable but got shafted as an AT due to time constraints, I sure hope he intended to bring Isaac to playable later on or maybe he did not plan that and now is given the huge fan outcry we have been doing for the past 10 months.

I am pretty sure Sakurai played GS. That man always surprises me with his amazing tastes regarding video games. He played amazing JRPGs like Persona and Dragon Quest, so I am pretty sure he probably did play Tales of and Golden Sun as well. It might have only be the first game of the franchise but that's all we need given the success the very first GS had.
And we'll see about the whole AT thingy. Sakurai did really make a lot of people happy given the roster as it is now. Sure there will always be some left out, but I can imagine him "breaking the Rules" for AT to please the long time fans of a certain character. Let's just hope for the best in the near future when Wave 2 drops!

 

[randy2dope]

Sorry for double post lol

 

[randy2dope]

 

[DogManStar]

I am pretty sure Sakurai played GS. That man always surprises me with his amazing tastes regarding video games. He played amazing JRPGs like Persona and Dragon Quest, so I am pretty sure he probably did play Tales of and Golden Sun as well. It might have only be the first game of the franchise but that's all we need given the success the very first GS had.
And we'll see about the whole AT thingy. Sakurai did really make a lot of people happy given the roster as it is now. Sure there will always be some left out, but I can imagine him "breaking the Rules" for AT to please the long time fans of a certain character. Let's just hope for the best in the near future when Wave 2 drops!

I think it’s pretty safe to assume that Sakurai has played Tales at least, since he discussed his thought process behind picking Lloyd as the mii costume in 4. If he likes JRPGs this much though, I can’t see why he wouldn’t have played GS yet.

 

[SonicLink125]

I think it’s pretty safe to assume that Sakurai has played Tales at least, since he discussed his thought process behind picking Lloyd as the mii costume in 4. If he likes JRPGs this much though, I can’t see why he wouldn’t have played GS yet.

If he hadn’t played Golden Sun, how would he know Isaac could use utility psynergy for his AT?

It not a matter of if he’s played it. It’s more a matter of how much he’s played it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If he hadn’t played Golden Sun, how would he know Isaac could use utility psynergy for his AT?

It not a matter of if he’s played it. It’s more a matter of how much he’s played it.

Isaac now has Psynergy abilities from both GS1 and TLA in Ultimate, he's got to have played a good bit of the series.

 

[DogManStar]

Isaac now has Psynergy abilities from both GS1 and TLA in Ultimate, he's got to have played a good bit of the series.

Yeah hopefully he has played both TBS and TLA now. He doesn’t pick the spirits right? All of the TLA party is there besides Piers.

 

[SonicLink125]

Yeah hopefully he has played both TBS and TLA now. He doesn’t pick the spirits right? All of the TLA party is there besides Piers.

Both Sheba and Piers are missing. As well as Kraden, Saturos, Menardi, Karst, Agato, Alex, etc.
Not to mention all the other Dark Dawn characters.

 

[NessAtc.]

Isaac's Mii Costume has higher quality textures, but they'd be stupid to not at least work off of Isaac's Assist model to make him playable. Even if some major overhauling is needed (and hopefully a new, unique hand model and not a recolored Master Hand) Isaac still has quite a bit to lessen his load if he made the jump to playable. All he needs is the go-ahead from Sakurai to get it done, and I firmly believe he's being worked on as we speak.

no, they're the exact same textures with a slight addition to shading on the breastplate and a button texture overlaid on top of where the face texture would be

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Both Sheba and Piers are missing. As well as Kraden, Saturos, Menardi, Karst, Agato, Alex, etc.
Not to mention all the other Dark Dawn characters.

Yep, more than enough to fill up DLC spirits. Assuming we also could get a remake down the line and Isaac's Smash inclusion can potentially cross over with that we could get new spirits based on the new artwork that is made for the remakes

 

[FlawedAI]

no, they're the exact same textures with a slight addition to shading on the breastplate and a button texture overlaid on top of where the face texture would be

Oh, my mistake. My point still stands about Isaac being less work than other fighters though.

 

[N3ON]

Oh, my mistake. My point still stands about Isaac being less work than other fighters though.

Incrementally, I suppose - in that they have about as much done as they would a background character like Mumbo Jumbo, Pauline, or any of the Phantom Thieves. I'm sure just having a rough model is the very very tip of the iceberg when it comes to making the character.

View attachment 239499

That creature isn't Isaac. That thing is definitely Issac.

 

[NessAtc.]

Yep, more than enough to fill up DLC spirits. Assuming we also could get a remake down the line and Isaac's Smash inclusion can potentially cross over with that we could get new spirits based on the new artwork that is made for the remakes

Could just as easily use Djinn and bosses as well

 

[Onassi2]

Incrementally, I suppose - in that they have about as much done as they would a background character like Mumbo Jumbo, Pauline, or any of the Phantom Thieves. I'm sure just having a rough model is the very very tip of the iceberg when it comes to making the character.

I’m not a game developer or coder, but I’d reckon the fact that Isaac can be grabbed, thrown, KO’d, and just interacted with in general surely lightens the workload needed to turn him into a full fledged fighter relative to Pauline or other background characters.

 

[NessAtc.]

I’m not a game developer or coder, but I’d reckon the fact that Isaac can be grabbed, thrown, KO’d, and just interacted with in general surely lightens the workload needed to turn him into a full fledged fighter relative to Pauline or other background characters.

Those attributes are the standard make of a fighter anyway, so it's not necessarily an edge he has over any other character

he has to be remade as a playable character, they can't make use of hitboxes or grab boxes for that

 

[Ura]

Yeah. There's no shortage of GS characters to have as Spirits. Accounting for Sheba, Piers, Alex, Saturos, Menardi, and all those DD characters.

 

[Onassi2]

Those attributes are the standard make of a fighter anyway, so it's not necessarily an edge he has over any other character

he has to be remade as a playable character, they can't make use of hitboxes or grab boxes for that

Fair enough, can’t argue when I have zero knowledge of how that works.

 

[Kamtheman56]

Isaac's Mii Costume has higher quality textures, but they'd be stupid to not at least work off of Isaac's Assist model to make him playable. Even if some major overhauling is needed (and hopefully a new, unique hand model and not a recolored Master Hand) Isaac still has quite a bit to lessen his load if he made the jump to playable. All he needs is the go-ahead from Sakurai to get it done, and I firmly believe he's being worked on as we speak.

As someone who has worked with the models for both the assist trophy and Mii costume the texture quality is only slightly better on the costume but the costume is a bit higher poly than his AT model. I assume this is because during gameplay if you're wearing the costume you'll always see it, thus requiring it to look better. Regardless I imagine they both stem from an original higher poly Isaac before turning it into game assests, so they might still have that lying around somewhere.

 

[Hydewell]

Even if the're missing spirits from the game, they can always put spirits of new artwork if there're a remake of Golden Sun on the way, even if it features some characters they are already in the game.
A little off topic, but it's interesting how they'll put spirits from Daemon X Machima but they didn't put anything related to Astral Chain and FE3H...

 

[Tetiro]

Hey guys I just wanted to say I'm doing another monthly Golden Sunday Giveaway for you lovely peeps! It is for an Isaac scarf

This day has finally come. This Sunday I am giving away an Isaac Scarf from Golden Sun! Version 1 of my scarf! So check this twitter profile on Sunday to get a chance to claim it! It is super soft!#goldensun #fanwork #crafts #bringbackgoldensun pic.twitter.com/A1uGOECDdO

— Jeremy (@Grandpa_Pixel) September 26, 2019

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

u/spikain on r/GoldenSun upscaled some official Golden Sun art with beautiful results

1/2 pic.twitter.com/85r27VL4Qy

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) September 26, 2019

2/2 pic.twitter.com/lTYkxf7b9d

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) September 26, 2019

 

[Mav485]

u/spikain on r/GoldenSun upscaled some official Golden Sun art with beautiful results

1/2 pic.twitter.com/85r27VL4Qy

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) September 26, 2019

2/2 pic.twitter.com/lTYkxf7b9d

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) September 26, 2019

I see art like this and I just remain stupified at how Nintendo can't see the potential in this franchise and get it up and running!! That guy (u/spikain) did a great job on the images. I particularly like the Garet one.

 

[DMurr]

Honestly, I'd argue that the fact that Golden Sun got more content than other series without a playable character is because Isaac wasn't going to be playable, not because he was almost playable. What that does say to me though is that they were aware of the demand for it.

 

[Midget Master]

Honestly, I'd argue that the fact that Golden Sun got more content than other series without a playable character is because Isaac wasn't going to be playable, not because he was almost playable. What that does say to me though is that they were aware of the demand for it.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that was their thinking. But even so, content is content - Isaac even got a new costume, which 4 has shown to very much suggest "we know people want to play as this." They probably realize the demand either way, and that's certainly a better place to be in than a lot of characters.

That's enough that I think if Nintendo ever goes for another game or remakes, they would at the least consider a Golden Sun rep in Smash. Particularly if they leave the window for DLC open ended this time around and intend to use it for marketing pushes.