Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[StrawHatX]

Granted guys, it’s best I say one last thing before I go afk for a bit, but just how high do some of you REALISTICALLY see for Isaac go get in as dlc next year? And what timing would you expect him to be revealed if it were to happen? All my buds been asking me this question at my college dorm since I brought up our discussions so it’s useful to know this. Any proving points I’ll appreciate considering one keeps saying AT promotions are impossible. >_<

The idea that Sakurai wants to make Ultimate this legacy game and THE fan game definitely increases his chances even with him already being an AT.

There are some good arguments to be made for inclusion if you look at how much of an RPG juggernaut the Switch has become and how Nintendo would benefit from bringing GS to it (Especially since they own the rights and don’t have to split profits with Square if they rerelease it), but I think Sakurai has total control of the DLC picks from this point on and doesn’t really think about that stuff.

I’d say currently he has a legit 50% chance to get in. It all really depends on the first fighter we get after the Pass. Not that getting a third party character means we’re only getting third parties again, but it at least gives us a hint on maybe where Sakurai’s head is at.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think Isaac's more or less a lock for DLC. It's just a matter of if he's #5 or if he's coming in the x amount of characters after the pass, and I'm thinking it's 75/25 on that front

 

[Kalaam]

I also think isaac is very likely as 5th, to set the tone for what will come next.

 

[Hydewell]

Granted guys, it’s best I say one last thing before I go afk for a bit, but just how high do some of you REALISTICALLY see for Isaac go get in as dlc next year? And what timing would you expect him to be revealed if it were to happen? All my buds been asking me this question at my college dorm since I brought up our discussions so it’s useful to know this. Any proving points I’ll appreciate considering one keeps saying AT promotions are impossible. >_<

It's depend on the first character of the second wave (because I doubt the 5th one will be a character with an actual role in the game) and if Camelot is doing a Golden Sun game or not. If they're doing, they could announce Isaac/whoever from GS with the announcement of a new game, like Isabelle and Animal Crossing. Also, I doubt Nintendo would announce him in the E3, he's not that important.
In terms of probability... maybe between 10-20%? Sadly, he has still huge competition, and some new characters have joined to the speculation and have gain a lot of support, like Doomguy or Steve, to mention some. And even if the AT status doesn't matter and the new bandwagons characters doesn't count, we still have no idea how Isaac performed in the ballot (I mean, if we see the online polls he surely did okay and the fact he returned as an AT also prove that, but still there could be some characters above him, so...).

 

[Gurein]

I also think isaac is very likely as 5th, to set the tone for what will come next.

While that would be very funny (and obviously extremely neat) let's not get TOO optimistic here. Better reveal a character like Geno or Isaac first for the extra characters to set up the tone.
On another note, seeing how Sakurai likes to go wild and be unpredictable with the CGI trailers lately wouldn't it be funny Felix gets revealed first, then proceeds to free Isaac from his AT shell?

 

[Pinguino21v]

I think the 5th character of the pass will be a new third party, but there's a lot of contenders. I'm personally betting on either Ryu Hayabusa, Steve, or a Capcom rep (Phoenix, RE or MH).

Assist and spirit upgrade, if happening, will be after.

 

[SonicLink125]

I think the 5th character of the pass will be a new third party, but there's a lot of contenders. I'm personally betting on either Ryu Hayabusa, Steve, or a Capcom rep (Phoenix, RE or MH).

Assist and spirit upgrade, if happening, will be after.

Doom Slayer is a good contender for the 5th spot.
Isaac would be amazing if he was #6, but any AT would be a huge win for us all.

 

[THE 6r]

Doom Slayer is a good contender for the 5th spot.
Isaac would be amazing if he was #6, but any AT would be a huge win for us all.

I think that there's a chance of Sora being 5 as well, as kinda a BIG surprise

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I definitely think the 5th character for the fighter pass is another third party. I think there's a decent chance to focus will change after the 5th character though. Since it was said that the fighter pass characters were meant to be characters you wouldn't expect.

Ryu Hayabusa
Doom Slayer

seem like the two most likely contenders, though I wouldn't rule out Phoenix Wright either. I suppose there's an outside chance that the 5th dlc character is Geno but I'm not so sure about that.

Then again talking about "likely contenders" doesn't mean much when barely anyone even saw Terry Bogard coming.

 

[N3ON]

Granted guys, it’s best I say one last thing before I go afk for a bit, but just how high do some of you REALISTICALLY see for Isaac go get in as dlc next year? And what timing would you expect him to be revealed if it were to happen? All my buds been asking me this question at my college dorm since I brought up our discussions so it’s useful to know this. Any proving points I’ll appreciate considering one keeps saying AT promotions are impossible. >_<

Who knows if promotions are possible, but I think realistically, Isaac's best shot is either if they intend on giving us a fair bit more DLC (like, a filling up those remaining 10 WoL slots amount) or if a good deal of what comes after the pass focuses on first-party. Otherwise, I wouldn't hold my breath.

But you never know.

I think Isaac's more or less a lock for DLC. It's just a matter of if he's #5 or if he's coming in the x amount of characters after the pass, and I'm thinking it's 75/25 on that front

I think calling any character with an existing role, especially an AT, a "lock" is definitely getting ahead of yourself.

I also think isaac is very likely as 5th, to set the tone for what will come next.

The fact that the Pass is likely all third-parties aside, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Isaac to be an AT if he was decided for DLC pre-launch. Any explanation that could reconcile that would likely stray into bias or away from reality.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think calling any character with an existing role, especially an AT, a "lock" is definitely getting ahead of yourself.
The fact that the Pass is likely all third-parties aside, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Isaac to be an AT if he was decided for DLC pre-launch. Any explanation that could reconcile that would likely stray into bias or away from reality.

If that's your opinion sure, but I don't bother with logic and Smash anymore. It doesn't work.

 

[Kalaam]

True. Logic also said Sans would never be in smash in any form, that Banjo was impossible because it was too old and didn't belong to Nintendo anymore, that K.Rool was irrelevant, etc etc etc

 

[MeatOfJustice]

I think that there's a chance of Sora being 5 as well, as kinda a BIG surprise

2 SE characters on the same pack? It seems too expensive for Nintendo to me.

I definitely think the 5th character for the fighter pass is another third party. I think there's a decent chance to focus will change after the 5th character though. Since it was said that the fighter pass characters were meant to be characters you wouldn't expect.

Ryu Hayabusa
Doom Slayer

seem like the two most likely contenders, though I wouldn't rule out Phoenix Wright either. I suppose there's an outside chance that the 5th dlc character is Geno but I'm not so sure about that.

Then again talking about "likely contenders" doesn't mean much when barely anyone even saw Terry Bogard coming.

I'd say Capcom in general as the 3rd most likely (I'd say it's between Phoenix, Dante and Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter if Capcom is not in the Pass), but I agree on Ryu H. and Doomslayer being the most likely.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Doom Slayer is a good contender for the 5th spot.

I think that there's a chance of Sora being 5 as well, as kinda a BIG surprise

I agree that both could be the 5th. But I am personally not really feeling them. I'm not a Doom fan so maybe I'm biased. I'm a fan of Sora but I really really don't see him in the pass.

Nobody knows.

 

[StrawHatX]

I think Crash will be the 5th character in the Pass.

Isaac would be one of the newer DLC characters. The Fighter Pass was likely planned before the game even finished. So with Isaac being an AT and having a costume I don’t think Sakurai thought Isaac would make it. But now that he’s decided to just add on more characters and make fans happy it’s totally plausible now.

I think Geno for sure happens. Nintendo and Square are buddies and we still haven’t seen the Geno costume.

 

[THE 6r]

I feel like, from a business standpoint, whoever character 5 is it has to be the "ultimate" showstopper. It has to to make the previous 4 characters in the FP and plant look predictable. This last one is the biggest wild card. It also has to make people want more. It's probably a 3rd party (like the rest of the pass).

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I feel like, from a business standpoint, whoever character 5 is it has to be the "ultimate" showstopper. It has to to make the previous 4 characters in the FP and plant look predictable. This last one is the biggest wild card. It also has to make people want more. It's probably a 3rd party (like the rest of the pass).

I feel like that's not really necessary now that we know more characters are coming. It doesn't need to be a "last hurrah" or anything like that.

Besides from what I've seen of Smash they don't usually bring out the big guns at the last second. (I mean usually they bring the big guns out pretty early, like Ridley or King K. Rool)

If they wanted a showstopper they would surely have kept Banjo & Kazooie for the 5th slot.

 

[SonicLink125]

I feel like, from a business standpoint, whoever character 5 is it has to be the "ultimate" showstopper. It has to to make the previous 4 characters in the FP and plant look predictable. This last one is the biggest wild card. It also has to make people want more. It's probably a 3rd party (like the rest of the pass).

It’s funny how we all thought we had the DLC characters down. Then Nintendo leaks Terry on accident which caught almost everyone off guard. It’s really hard to pinpoint who the 5th DLC character will be. However, the best part of that is it doesn’t matter since now with more DLC on the way, the sky’s the limit.

 

[StrawHatX]

I feel like that's not really necessary now that we know more characters are coming. It doesn't need to be a "last hurrah" or anything like that.

Besides from what I've seen of Smash they don't usually bring out the big guns at the last second. (I mean usually they bring the big guns out pretty early, like Ridley or King K. Rool)

If they wanted a showstopper they would surely have kept Banjo & Kazooie for the 5th slot.

When they came up with the Pass characters they may not have thought they’d make any more DLC so for all they knew that last character would be a “last hurrah”.

But who knows. Even though Banjo is my favorite from the Pass I think Crash would be a much bigger impact. Not in the Smash community, but in general.

 

[NessAtc.]

Historically they have never, ever done a "last hurrah" character, those types of characters are always in the middle or at the beginning

There's no grounds to believe this time will be different

 

[StrawHatX]

Historically they have never, ever done a "last hurrah" character, those types of characters are always in the middle or at the beginning

There's no grounds to believe this time will be different

Very true. Corrin was arguably the most underwhelming DLC character of Smash 4.

 

[Bassoonist]

True. Logic also said Sans would never be in smash in any form, that Banjo was impossible because it was too old and didn't belong to Nintendo anymore, that K.Rool was irrelevant, etc etc etc

Okay, but there are things we think as fans that we call "logic" (what you listed), but then there are hard, cold facts. Isaac not being able to be a part of the Fighter's Pass DLC falls into the latter, not the former. As N3ON explained, if he was intended to be in the Fighter's Pass, his inclusion as an Assist Trophy would make no sense.

I won't downplay the fact that Banjo & Kazooie becoming a Smash character is an unexpected wonder, but even still, what was going against them is still quite different from Isaac. What's going against Isaac being the last character in the Fighter's Pass is in-game evidence, not pieced together logic from other means.

 

[Undella2]

If Sakurai is truly intent on "giving the fans what they want", then I think that Isaac, Geno, and Waluigi are some of the last big long-lasting fan requests that have yet to be fulfilled, and it would only be logical to add them, (or at least try asking Square Enix in the case of Geno).

Otherwise, I think that a Namco or Capcom character is going to be Fighter Pass character #5. I'm expecting either a fighting game character owned by one of those two companies or something in the vein of Lloyd or Phoenix Wright.

 

[NessAtc.]

Okay, but there are things we think as fans that we call "logic" (what you listed), but then there are hard, cold facts. Isaac not being able to be a part of the Fighter's Pass DLC falls into the latter, not the former. As N3ON explained, if he was intended to be in the Fighter's Pass, his inclusion as an Assist Trophy would make no sense.

I won't downplay the fact that Banjo & Kazooie becoming a Smash character is an unexpected wonder, but even still, what was going against them is still quite different from Isaac. What's going against Isaac being the last character in the Fighter's Pass is in-game evidence, not pieced together logic from other means.

Yeah we definitely didn't get Mewtwo and Lucas in smash 4 dlc because they were trophies, that would have been stupid

Also, Banjo was in talks for development at E3 last year. That's the general timeframe they were getting the DLC together. If Isaac's in the scheduled pass while also having in game stuff, not only would removing said stuff be adding extra work for limited payoff, lack of an Isaac spirit in the game would be a goddamn dead ringer for DLC. This isn't like third parties where you can just say "of course it's not in the game, it's not owned by Nintendo". If Golden Sun spirits were missing, it would have killed all suspense whatsoever.

 

[N3ON]

If that's your opinion sure, but I don't bother with logic and Smash anymore. It doesn't work.

The "anything could happen" mentality is the antithesis of claiming something is a "lock".

 

[StrawHatX]

If Sakurai is truly intent on "giving the fans what they want", then I think that Isaac, Geno, and Waluigi are some of the last big long-lasting fan requests that have yet to be fulfilled, and it would only be logical to add them, (or at least try asking Square Enix in the case of Geno).

Otherwise, I think that a Namco or Capcom character is going to be Fighter Pass character #5. I'm expecting either a fighting game character owned by one of those two companies or something in the vein of Lloyd or Phoenix Wright.

Good thing about those top 3 as well is Sakurai doesn’t have to go through a third party company to get Isaac and Waluigi, and Nintendo is such good buds with Square now (who already have Cloud and Hero in there) that working out something for Geno shouldn’t be an issue. He already has a spirit as does Mallow.

 

[NessAtc.]

The "anything could happen" mentality is the antithesis of claiming something is a "lock".

We haven't been given a concrete end point for DLC. It's literally just a matter of time before he actually does decide to just do it.

 

[Bassoonist]

Yeah we definitely didn't get Mewtwo and Lucas in smash 4 dlc because they were trophies, that would have been stupid

Also, Banjo was in talks for development at E3 last year. That's the general timeframe they were getting the DLC together. If Isaac's in the scheduled pass while also having in game stuff, not only would removing said stuff be adding extra work for limited payoff, lack of an Isaac spirit in the game would be a goddamn dead ringer for DLC. This isn't like third parties where you can just say "of course it's not in the game, it's not owned by Nintendo". If Golden Sun spirits were missing, it would have killed all suspense whatsoever.

I was never someone who said that Mewtwo and Lucas could not be Smash 4 DLC because they were trophies in the base-game. If they had been added and kept as Assist Trophies then that would be a different matter.

Your argument about lack of GS content in the base-game being a "dead ringer" for DLC is exactly what some of us felt with SSB4. I remember the lack of an Isaac AT being so unbelievable.

You know, if it had happened again in Ultimate, I don't think it would have been as suspect, as we'd already seen that happen before and absolutely nothing came of it.

 

[SonicLink125]

Good thing about those top 3 as well is Sakurai doesn’t have to go through a third party company to get Isaac and Waluigi, and Nintendo is such good buds with Square now (who already have Cloud and Hero in there) that working out something for Geno shouldn’t be an issue. He already has a spirit as does Mallow.

I hope they can get Geno with how stingy Square has been. But I guess we’ll see next year. lol

 

[NessAtc.]

I was never someone who said that Mewtwo and Lucas could not be Smash 4 DLC because they were trophies in the base-game. If they had been added and kept as Assist Trophies then that would be a different matter.

Your argument about lack of GS content in the base-game being a "dead ringer" for DLC is exactly what some of us felt with SSB4. I remember the lack of an Isaac AT being so unbelievable.

You know, if it had happened again in Ultimate, I don't think it would have been as suspect, as we'd already seen that happen before and absolutely nothing came of it.

you forget that literally EVERY Nintendo franchise released at that time has at least one spirit. if Golden Sun had none, of COURSE that would be incredibly suspicious.

 

[Bassoonist]

you forget that literally EVERY Nintendo franchise has at least one spirit. if Golden Sun had none, of COURSE that would be incredibly suspicious.

Golden Sun's content was not completely absent in SSB4, there were two music tracks - the one from Brawl and another added newly from Dark Dawn.

Now with Spirits, I'm not one who thinks that they disconfirm a character. We have plenty of Spirits of playable characters, after all. That's quite a bit different from Assist Trophies, which one of a character has never coexisted with the same character as playable in the same game.

At the end of the day, it's Isaac's presence (not just that, but him being remade for SSBU, after being absent from SSB4) as an Assist Trophy that is the biggest deal here and throws a huge wrench in the idea that Isaac being planned as DLC. As I mentioned before, all GS content they included in Ultimate save for the Assist Trophy could have not been included in Ultimate's base-game and we wouldn't be able to say "Oh, yeah, he's obviously going to be DLC!" because we had the same conundrum in SSB4 and nothing came of it.

 

[Kalaam]

While you are right that expectation should stay tame etc, showing hype and excitement is what will make us visible. Be outstanding, be extravagant, show hyper high hype with fancreation. Make them notice that there is a big hype for this character. Not a mild, calm group of fan who expect him not to be in. Show that he is wanted, that we are ready to hype to **** out of his inclusion, that it will sell.

 

[THE 6r]

While you are right that expectation should stay tame etc, showing hype and excitement is what will make us visible. Be outstanding, be extravagant, show hyper high hype with fancreation. Make them notice that there is a big hype for this character. Not a mild, calm group of fan who expect him not to be in. Show that he is wanted, that we are ready to hype to **** out of his inclusion, that it will sell.

The champaign has been on ice since 2001. Certainly the blowback from deconfirmation got some eyes and ears at the big N, but we won't know until we get a grasp of whether or not the 2nd wave was planned from the start, or a reaction to fans.

 

[NessAtc.]

Golden Sun's content was not completely absent in SSB4, there were two music tracks - the one from Brawl and another added newly from Dark Dawn.

Now with Spirits, I'm not one who thinks that they disconfirm a character. We have plenty of Spirits of playable characters, after all. That's quite a bit different from Assist Trophies, which one of a character has never coexisted with the same character as playable in the same game.

At the end of the day, it's Isaac's presence (not just that, but him being remade for SSBU, after being absent from SSB4) as an Assist Trophy that is the biggest deal here and throws a huge wrench in the idea that Isaac being planned as DLC. As I mentioned before, all GS content they included in Ultimate save for the Assist Trophy could have not been included in Ultimate's base-game and we wouldn't be able to say "Oh, yeah, he's obviously going to be DLC!" because we had the same conundrum in SSB4 and nothing came of it.

I can't believe I have to say this again

If there was not a single Golden Sun spirit in the game whatsoever, in spite of literally every other Nintendo franchise receiving at least one, that would be cause for curiosity. That's why they didn't leave it out.

Was the assist trophy necessary for the narrative? Probably not. But at the same time, it's a HELL of a lot easier to base a new character off of an existing model, and the assist was likely done FAR before DLC even started getting planned

I also have no idea where the hell this idea that base game content is affecting post-game content decisions came from. Post-game content is an entirely different ball game, we have literal evidence that the post game content was being planned WELL after the full game was finalized, and above all else, these extrapolations y'all are throwing around are assumptions without any basis, since the proposed scenario has never happened before.

If Isaac is not Character #5, it won't be because he's an assist trophy. It won't be because he has content already in the game. It won't be because we have 2 JRPG characters already. It won't be because Sakurai arbitrarily decided the entire pass must be third party. There is only one reason:

He simply did not get picked. Nothing. Else.

 

[StrawHatX]

Golden Sun's content was not completely absent in SSB4, there were two music tracks - the one from Brawl and another added newly from Dark Dawn.

Now with Spirits, I'm not one who thinks that they disconfirm a character. We have plenty of Spirits of playable characters, after all. That's quite a bit different from Assist Trophies, which one of a character has never coexisted with the same character as playable in the same game.

At the end of the day, it's Isaac's presence (not just that, but him being remade for SSBU, after being absent from SSB4) as an Assist Trophy that is the biggest deal here and throws a huge wrench in the idea that Isaac being planned as DLC. As I mentioned before, all GS content they included in Ultimate save for the Assist Trophy could have not been included in Ultimate's base-game and we wouldn't be able to say "Oh, yeah, he's obviously going to be DLC!" because we had the same conundrum in SSB4 and nothing came of it.

I agree his AT throws a wrench into him being DLC....... for the Fighter Pass. Don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think Sakurai only planned to have this one Fighter Pass and that be it for DLC. If Nintendo picked a group of characters for the Pass (and seemingly third parties) then Isaac wasn’t going to have a chance.

But the way Sakurai worded the decision to make more DLC sounded like he realized the next Smash game won’t be out for a very long time and won’t have nearly the amount of characters Ultimate has and so he’s now going to please fans as a thank you.

I fully admit my bias as an Isaac fan, but I do truly believe this means it doesn’t matter if a character has an AT already. If there has been demand and Sakurai can make the character interesting as a fighter then he’ll do it. There has never been a Smash game like this before. Sakurai seemingly wants to make this like nothing that will ever happen again.

So just because a character wasn’t orinignly planned to be in the base game or the Pass (which again was up to Nintendo to decide so its kind of hard for Sakurai to plan for that) doesn’t mean it can’t happen now where anything can go to please the people who have supported the series.

 

[TempestSurge]

Granted guys, it’s best I say one last thing before I go afk for a bit, but just how high do some of you REALISTICALLY see for Isaac go get in as dlc next year? And what timing would you expect him to be revealed if it were to happen? All my buds been asking me this question at my college dorm since I brought up our discussions so it’s useful to know this. Any proving points I’ll appreciate considering one keeps saying AT promotions are impossible. >_<

To be honest there's not really any definite concrete answer to give. Until there's an actual assist promotion, it'll always be the thing that makes Isaac seem impossible. Of course if Sakurai or some credible leaker comes out and says this extra DLC won't have any assist promotions then that's a done deal for Isaac lol.

You know there are things in this thread that'll I'll speculate and remain optimistic regarding Isaac's chances cause I want him to be playable and I'm around others who are also rooting for him, but it may not necessarily be things that would ever be convincing enough for others. Like I have a cousin where nothing short of Isaac's actual trailer is convincing him.

 

[DogManStar]

I don’t think Isaac will be #5. It just doesn’t seem to fit the way the pass has been structured so far and the timing doesn’t make sense. I don’t think Isaac would have been planned to be added before the game came out (when this pass was probably planned) so I wouldn’t start waiting for him until later on.

 

[StrawHatX]

I don’t think Isaac will be #5. It just doesn’t seem to fit the way the pass has been structured so far and the timing doesn’t make sense. I don’t think Isaac would have been planned to be added before the game came out (when this pass was probably planned) so I wouldn’t start waiting for him until later on.

We know Nintendo basically picked characters for the Fighter Pass and Sakurai decided out of the bunch which ones he wanted to work on. And since 4/5 characters have been third party it’s obvious Nintendo wanted to improve relations with other companies most likely for more titles on the Switch.

Isaac likely was never considered for the Pass. Now that we’re finishing up with it and moving to Sakurai picking characters again it seems much more hopeful. Especially keeping the fans in mind like he said.

 

[Sentinel07]

Granted guys, it’s best I say one last thing before I go afk for a bit, but just how high do some of you REALISTICALLY see for Isaac go get in as dlc next year? And what timing would you expect him to be revealed if it were to happen? All my buds been asking me this question at my college dorm since I brought up our discussions so it’s useful to know this. Any proving points I’ll appreciate considering one keeps saying AT promotions are impossible. >_<

I wouldn't say I have any expectations. If someone were to ask me, I would say the odds are highly unlikely.

Now, if that supposed rumor that stated Nintendo was surprised at the reception Isaac got when he revealed as just an AT again has any merit, then who knows, they may decide to do him out of fan demand.

 

[DogManStar]

We know Nintendo basically picked characters for the Fighter Pass and Sakurai decided out of the bunch which ones he wanted to work on. And since 4/5 characters have been third party it’s obvious Nintendo wanted to improve relations with other companies most likely for more titles on the Switch.

Isaac likely was never considered for the Pass. Now that we’re finishing up with it and moving to Sakurai picking characters again it seems much more hopeful. Especially keeping the fans in mind like he said.

Yeah, going off of this I am fully expecting the last pass character to be another third party from a similar situation as the others. I'm thinking maybe Lloyd, Doomguy, maybe Ryu or Sora...

Beyond that it is hard to say. Hopefully Sakurai in charge will take fan demand into account again and bring some old favorites on board. Not really sure what the expanding worlds thing meant, he could just want to bring in new iterations of old series (like Geno) or entirely new universes without playable characters (like Isaac or Lloyd.)