Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[N3ON]

Besides, it may be more trouble than it's worth to reprogram the game to have characters' ATs not show up in every stage when/if they become playable.

Given my pretty limited knowledge of programming, disabling an AT under a specific "if" condition does not sound overly intensive. I mean, they've already disabled many ATs on specific stages. Programming-wise, it'd basically be like turning an item off in the item select, except it'd be contingent on a character choice instead of an item one.

Not that I think they'll upgrade ATs - just that if they did, that facet would be a lot more straightforward than even some of the glitches they've had to handle so far.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well at any rate, they may not upgrade ATs this time either, lord knows why, regardless of how feasible it is. They probably would rather save the effort for brand-new characters anyways.

 

[NessAtc.]

Sure, but I don't think many people expect the Moon to be playable.

that's besides the point. The point is they already disable certain assists for even the smallest conflictions. Disabling an assist while a character is active is not rocket science comparatively. Heck, they don't even *need* to disable it, since we can have a Final Smash Chrom and a victory screen Chrom and a mii costume Chrom while Chrom is getting beaten by himself

 

[Diddy Kong]

Playing through Dragon Quest 3 now, and I find quite a lot of similarities to Golden Sun in a way. Granted, I prefer Golden Sun, but it’s a good game especially for mobile standards (I know it’s a remake don’t flame me).

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sure, but I don't think many people expect the Moon to be playable.

Alucard, though?

Plus if it's easy to do for the Moon it's easy to do for Waluigi, there's not much science to it.

 

[N3ON]

You can't have the Moon crashing down while Skull Kid's FS is making the Moon crash down.

This isn't some Chrom stuff, this actually matters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Alucard, though?

Plus if it's easy to do for the Moon it's easy to do for Waluigi, there's not much science to it.

At least in his case it was made clear that the fans would rather have a Belmont be first. His time hasn't come for now.

My gut feeling says they still won't budge on Waluigi regardless. So try not to act surprised if the Frisk/Waluigi leak isn't real.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

That interview does give me hope that we could see more fan requested characters show up as DLC. And by extension Isaac. If that were to happen for Ultimate I wouldn't expect it until post fighter's pass (assuming we get more) and even then I suspect he would probably show up in the next game. Regardless though, it gives me a little hope that fan demand has a bit more influence than I previously figured.

Having said that, I also worry a little that he meant the inclusion of fan requested characters will lead to more characters being requested rather than the addition of yet more popular picks. Especially given potential translation issues I'm a bit wary.

Also regarding potential for a new Golden Sun game or remaster, I expect that no news is likely good news for now. The longer we go with no information as to what Camelot is up to, I suspect the more likely that game they are working on is not a Mario Sports title. I may be making too many assumptions here, but my understanding is that Mario Sports titles shouldn't take nearly as much development time, so a longer absence could mean something more involved.

Though now that I've said aaaaaall of that, I'm still not entirely convinced that a new Golden Sun would necessarily have to be made by Camelot. Especially if they make remasters or a reimagining of the old games. I'd love to see Monolith Soft's take on the IP to be honest. Especially given their involvement in both BotW and XB2, I feel like Golden Sun would be squarely in their wheelhouse.

Monolith is implied to be working on BotW 2 and I don't know if they're still making a new IP we've seen the art for, so I'm not sure if they still have manpower for GS.

Also, why release/announce GS this year when the next Pokemon games release in November? It would be "dead on arrival". Not that I'd expect news this year either way.

 

[GoodGrief741]

At least in his case it was made clear that the fans would rather have a Belmont be first. His time hasn't come for now.

My gut feeling says they still won't budge on Waluigi regardless. So try not to act surprised if the Frisk/Waluigi leak isn't real.

Oh I won't be surprised at all, but not because ATs are impossible to upgrade. Improbable? Sure.

 

[N3ON]

Well, Waluigi is the canary in the coalmine. If any ATs get upgraded, it'll be him. Then it's open season.

But Isaac would be sitting pretty, should that day ever come.

 

[FlawedAI]

Well, Waluigi is the canary in the coalmine. If any ATs get upgraded, it'll be him. Then it's open season.

But Isaac would be sitting pretty, should that day ever come.

This is my personal opinion, but while Waluigi is probably a more popular request than Isaac, I legitimately think that Isaac has a better chance for Ultimate. Granted, I'm not sure about anything anymore, but it just feels like if they were to upgrade an Assist in this game, it'd be Isaac.

 

[N3ON]

This is my personal opinion, but while Waluigi is probably a more popular request than Isaac, I legitimately think that Isaac has a better chance for Ultimate. Granted, I'm not sure about anything anymore, but it just feels like if they were to upgrade an Assist in this game, it'd be Isaac.

If a new Golden Sun happens, sure, but outside of that, I think the only thing that would maybe break characters from an existing role like AT would be mass outcry. And in that category, Waluigi trumps all others.

People may say that Isaac has more to offer in terms of stage, music, spirits, etc. And that is all true. But that's not the basis on which a character would be elevated from AT status, so I don't think that facet is of great benefit here.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This is my personal opinion, but while Waluigi is probably a more popular request than Isaac, I legitimately think that Isaac has a better chance for Ultimate. Granted, I'm not sure about anything anymore, but it just feels like if they were to upgrade an Assist in this game, it'd be Isaac.

It's the ultra mainstream one vs. the one who is more suited to the structure of FP characters.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think the only thing that would maybe break characters from an existing role like AT would be mass outcry.

or maybe just.... y'know... deciding to do it? That happens in development too. They decide to make NPC characters playable.

 

[GoodGrief741]

or maybe just.... y'know... deciding to do it? That happens in development too. They decide to make NPC characters playable.

Sakurai is pretty headstrong though. That's why I think we won't see any promotions until extreme circumstances call for it.

 

[SirCamp]

Monolith is implied to be working on BotW 2 and I don't know if they're still making a new IP we've seen the art for, so I'm not sure if they still have manpower for GS.

Also, why release GS this year when the next Pokemon games release in November? It would be "dead on arrival". Not that I'd expect news this year either way.

No one was suggesting it would release this year, we were simply speculating about when we would hear about a GS game being in development IF there was one. And yeah I agree, if there were to be one they wouldn't announce it until next year.

Also I did not mean to imply that I think Monolith Soft would or even could do it now, just that they are an example of another studio that I very much believe could do the series justice. My point was simply that I don't believe it has to be Camelot or bust when it comes to a new game being made.

 

[NessAtc.]

Sakurai is pretty headstrong though. That's why I think we won't see any promotions until extreme circumstances call for it.

I don't think I'd describe Sakurai as "headstrong" after he added Ridley, K Rool and Banjo

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't think I'd describe Sakurai as "headstrong" after he added Ridley, K Rool and Banjo

Well, it did take him a while, and massive fan demand, to add them.

 

[N3ON]

or maybe just.... y'know... deciding to do it? That happens in development too. They decide to make NPC characters playable.

"Just cause" is not really Sakurai's modus operandi though, is it. Even as a surprise pick, there are more surprising candidates than Isaac, given the bar now rests around Piranha Plant. Really, the only reason he would choose Isaac now is a new game, or demand.

And if demand is the driving force, there is an AT that just outclasses Isaac. Frankly, it's commendable that, all things considered, Isaac is still second place.

 

[Organization XIII]

We wouldn't have to settle for second place every time if Golden Sun fans would stop going dormant every single time something seems to be in our way. Good Lord if the Banjo, K Rool, or Ridley fans did that they wouldn't be here.

 

[FlawedAI]

We wouldn't have to settle for second place every time if Golden Sun fans would stop going dormant every single time something seems to be in our way. Good Lord if the Banjo, K Rool, or Ridley fans did that they wouldn't be here.

Maybe our "chill" nature has hurt us in the long run, lol. We clearly need to speak up if we ever want something good to happen.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think we stopped being the chill guys a while back, and it's getting noticed.

 

[Bassoonist]

Weren't Isaac fans getting a bad rep not too long ago for being too salty about the final results of Ultimate's roster? I don't think we've been too chill.

 

[Nazyrus]

Weren't Isaac fans getting a bad rep not too long ago for being too salty about the final results of Ultimate's roster? I don't think we've been too chill.

What I remember is that a bunch of people made "calls" to Nintendo, which wasn't cool at all… I think there was a news that confirmed they were aware of the "backlash" then, which is good in terms of knowing how much people wanted the character, but… definitely not done in the right way, lol.

 

[Organization XIII]

I think the only wrong way is to do nothing.

 

[FlawedAI]

I think the only wrong way is to do nothing.

Absolutely, which is why we need to keep up with events like Golden Sunday and others. We need to be fresh in people's minds for a long time, especially that we don't know when the next Smash will be.

 

[TempestSurge]

I don't really blame the Isaac fan base for being chill. Not that it obviously hasn't hurt us in the long run but it makes sense as to why this fan base hasn't been as loud as the likes of Ridley or K. Rool.

Isaac was an assist in Brawl. Before the bad stigma associated with assists was a thing. At the time, being an assist in Brawl was an honor, Isaac had his foot in the door, representation in Smash in some form. Maybe had Isaac not been an assist, the voices would have gotten louder for his inclusion. For now it seemed like Isaac being an assist, made him among top picks for playability next game.

Cue Smash 4, Little Mac gets promoted and Isaac's assist is nowhere to be seen. Nintendo even dropped Golden Sun port on Wii U out of nowhere. At this point I was waiting for Isaac to be revealed. I didn't think assists being cut would be a thing, it was only the second Smash game to feature assists. Then Nintendo released a Ballot for Smash 4, so our voices and effort went to voting for Isaac.

Ultimate was waiting for the pay off essentially. I did feel as if the ballot was the acknowledgement that Nintendo needed to see that Isaac was wanted playable, voting for him in a fighter ballot. I held it to a high standard. It kind of just felt impossible that Nintendo would cut his assist, see the demand for him in the fighter ballot, and then proceed to bring bring him back as an assist again, instead of leaving cut assists cut like the others. Yet Isaac is the special exception to the rule. So at this point, the salty backlash, yes it's yikes you never want your fandom to be embarrassing, but it makes sense given the journey this fan base has been through. This outrage was built up to this particular boiling point, in a the quiet kid can only take so much kind of way.

 

[Bassoonist]

Isaac was an assist in Brawl. Before the bad stigma associated with assists was a thing. At the time, being an assist in Brawl was an honor, Isaac had his foot in the door, representation in Smash in some form.

I understand your point, but I most certainly did not feel that way at all back then. In addition, Assist Trophies have always had a bad stigma. Even before Isaac was revealed to be an AT in Brawl after the release of the game, there were characters that many people wanted who got Assist Trophy'd as it is said. I bet you could go back and find one of those Character Graveyard topics and see what I'm talking about. The stigma has always been there.

Isaac was my number one pick going into the speculation for Super Smash Bros Brawl. I suppose that was foolish, but in between Melee and Brawl was when the Golden Sun series got to its biggest and I remember it even being the talk of people back when I was in late middle school/early high school. It was a hype series, and Isaac seemed so perfect for SSB.

When the final Brawl roster was revealed I was crushed, and was not appeased at all by the presence of Isaac as an AT. Call me salty, but here we are over a decade later and things certainly haven't gotten even the slightest bit of better.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The stigma has always been there.

Still, it wouldn't be a surprise for the stigma to start small then grow over time:

• Having a character still be an AT after three games
• Playing without items has become more popular, both because of competitive Smash and because of items becoming more annoying
• DLC being a thing, and worrying if content already in the game (not just ATs) will prevent your character from making it
• The next Smash game supposedly being a decade away

 

[TempestSurge]

I understand your point, but I most certainly did not feel that way at all back then. In addition, Assist Trophies have always had a bad stigma. Even before Isaac was revealed to be an AT in Brawl after the release of the game, there were characters that many people wanted who got Assist Trophy'd as it is said. I bet you could go back and find one of those Character Graveyard topics and see what I'm talking about. The stigma has always been there.

Isaac was my number one pick going into the speculation for Super Smash Bros Brawl. I suppose that was foolish, but in between Melee and Brawl was when the Golden Sun series got to its biggest and I remember it even being the talk of people back when I was in late middle school/early high school. It was a hype series, and Isaac seemed so perfect for SSB.

When the final Brawl roster was revealed I was crushed, and was not appeased at all by the presence of Isaac as an AT. Call me salty, but here we are over a decade later and things certainly haven't gotten even the slightest bit of better.

Yeah I can understand that, there are some people that have been in the speculation scene of Smash, supporting their character for a long time. There are exceptions. I didn't really delve into the speculation scene till 4, so I definitely contributed to the fanbase being chill unknowningly despite Isaac being a most wanted of mine.

I do agree with the notion that the assist stigma worsened over time. When you realize your character can be an assist for their second or third time. The backlash over Isaac being an assist in Ultimate most likely wasn't to that extent in Brawl as a result, being referred to as chill or deemed not loud enough till this point.

 

[ZelDan]

yeah, even during Brawl I didn't like assist trophies, and was disappointed with both Lyn and Isaac being AT'd then.

It especially sucked then because on Brawl Dojo you'd see a picture of the character first and be like "WAIT WHAT" then see the word assist trophies afterwards. really helps to increase the hope crushing of the situation I do say.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I do really like ATs, but I think Sakurai needs to change his ways a bit and actually promote characters that have a role in base game. Otherwise people are just going to start hating their characters being in any capacity that isn't fighter, which is the opposite of what's intended.

 

[Dinoman96]

I do really like ATs, but I think Sakurai needs to change his ways a bit and actually promote characters that have a role in base game. Otherwise people are just going to start hating their characters being in any capacity that isn't fighter, which is the opposite of what's intended.

Well, in more cases than not, a character becoming an assist trophy instead of playable is basically his way of saying "yeah, this character isn't good enough, sorry".

I feel like the one exception there is Spring Man, who just got screwed over because ARMS came too late and Sakurai/Nintendo seemingly don't have much faith in their characters being DLC you have to pay $5.99 for, hence the reliance on third parties.

 

[TempestSurge]

I do really like ATs, but I think Sakurai needs to change his ways a bit and actually promote characters that have a role in base game. Otherwise people are just going to start hating their characters being in any capacity that isn't fighter, which is the opposite of what's intended.

You know I always wondered how Chrom went from a Final Smash and then suddenly to being such a highly requested character that he got promoted next game. I used to be like, more requested than Isaac? To me Smash 4 is kind of when you realize your character could be stuck in a non playable role and fans began to get loud so there were way more promotions from 4 to Ultimate: Isabelle, Dark Samus, Chrom, Ridley etc.

 

[Dinoman96]

You know I always wondered how Chrom went from a Final Smash and then suddenly to being such a highly requested character that he got promoted next game. I used to be like, more requested than Isaac? To me Smash 4 is kind of when you realize your character could be stuck in a non playable role and fans began to get loud so there were way more promotions from 4 to Ultimate: Isabelle, Dark Samus, Chrom, Ridley etc.

To be fair...Chrom and Dark Samus really just got in because they could work as echo fighters, which take substantially less time to develop than proper newcomers.

They're both characters that missed their small window of opportunity beforehand, so implementing them as echos was essentially their consolation prize. Someone like Isaac on the other hand, requires an entirely unique moveset.

 

[GoodGrief741]

You know I always wondered how Chrom went from a Final Smash and then suddenly to being such a highly requested character that he got promoted next game. I used to be like, more requested than Isaac? To me Smash 4 is kind of when you realize your character could be stuck in a non playable role and fans began to get loud so there were way more promotions from 4 to Ultimate: Isabelle, Dark Samus, Chrom, Ridley etc.

Chrom was also arguably like Waluigi, where he didn't just get shafted, but also literally mocked in his trailer. That really helps people rally, it helps make memes. Plus, Chrom was the protagonist of the game that saved Fire Emblem so already he had quite the fanbase.

But yeah Smash 4 went so far with the 'just doing new stuff' thing that people just decided they needed to be heard. Also the Ballot happened and after that there's no way back.

 

[NessAtc.]

hence the reliance on third parties.

this still remains to be seen

 

[StormC]

this still remains to be seen

I think 3/5 could be considered "relying on" at a certain point, even if the last two were both miraculously Nintendo characters.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think 3/5 could be considered "relying on" at a certain point, even if the last two were both miraculously Nintendo characters.

one of if not the most selling fighting game of all time needs third parties to sell DLC.

Yeah sure

also do tell how smash relies on Joker and Banjo

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

one of if not the most selling fighting game of all time needs third parties to sell DLC.

Yeah sure

For DLC, yes. You're not selling the base roster anymore. You're selling individual characters and they want to gather people outside of the Nintendo fandom as well. They want people to buy a Switch. It's not a coincidence we're getting more third parties as is. They're basically how the series evolved to get far more customers. Relying solely on Nintendo characters isn't that effective. Sonic alone got a massive fan outcry of love and cheers. That's what people wanted, to see their favorite icons battle it out against the Nintendo characters. Seeing massively notable franchises get in the biggest gaming crossover in the world(...though to be fair, MUGEN technically has that, but it's both a fangame and lacks the same quality).

There was massive cheers and people rejoiced to see Castlevania in Smash. Seeing Snake back was huge. Not every fanbase will be happy, of course, but they aren't just targeting Nintendo-only fans, and haven't been for a while. The demographic changed since Brawl. Melee was the last time where it was pretty much Nintendo only. It's pretty clear that 3rd parties are a big part and they are blatantly relying on them as part of the Fighter's Pass to help it go well. And so far it's going fairly well for a lot of people. Older Nintendo fans love Banjo & Kazooie. Some really love Hero because they're a Dragon Quest fan as is. Joker is the only really recent character overall in comparison, but Persona's been going on itself for quite a while. They can't pander to every single fan in the universe. We got a crapload of Golden Sun content, so that's a pretty huge improvement over both Brawl and 4 combined.