Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[GillyGrime]

Hey guys,

I've lurked around this thread since March and I have to say, the Isaac community is one of my favourite Smash communities I've seen. I had never played or even heard of Golden Sun previously (I know, shocking) and you guys have just been such a positive yet persistent fan base. You've been amazingly good sports over Isaac's AT status (which gutted me initially as I was #TeamReal for Grinch lol rip) and though it stung at first, I too think it's amazing just to see him in game at all after Smash 4 (and with a cool mii costume).

I can say you guys have created a new Golden Sun fan in me (currently playing the first one and picked up a copy of the DS one), and I am certain Nintendo can see better than ever how loved and desired the Golden Sun series is. I'd love to support both Isaac and Golden Sun.

 

[SonicLink125]

Hey guys,

I've lurked around this thread since March and I have to say, the Isaac community is one of my favourite Smash communities I've seen. I had never played or even heard of Golden Sun previously (I know, shocking) and you guys have just been such a positive yet persistent fan base. You've been amazingly good sports over Isaac's AT status (which gutted me initially as I was #TeamReal for Grinch lol rip) and though it stung at first, I too think it's amazing just to see him in game at all after Smash 4 (and with a cool mii costume).

I can say you guys have created a new Golden Sun fan in me (currently playing the first one and picked up a copy of the DS one), and I am certain Nintendo can see better than ever how loved and desired the Golden Sun series is. I'd love to support both Isaac and Golden Sun.

Awesome! Welcome, my fellow Adept, to the House of the Golden Sun! Thank you! It’s always so great to see newcomers to the series!

This right here everyone is one of the big reasons why we need to keep pushing for Golden Sun’s revival and Isaac’s inclusion to the Smash roster much harder than ever regardless of the chances/odds. The more people that get introduced, the better.

We need to keep it all relevant no matter what people say. I’m also not going to let other IPs overshadow Isaac/GS while I have a say in it all.

 

[Silo777]

I think Isaac was definitely close. If getting into smash is like delivering a pizza, Isaac is the delivery man who trips on the steps to your front porch. Many fan favourites were flat out ignored thus time around, but this character from this old series that hasn’t had a game in almost a decade, and wasn’t even IN the last game, suddenly gets everything except a fighter. I think Isaac was really close, but something is holding him back. Whether it just be the lack of time or the dormant status of his series, there is something that is holding him back from that playable position even though he checks all the other boxes for them. I think that’s why he got all this extra content.

I think the most suspicious part of it is the added moves to his assist trophy. I’ve seen it in action, and it’s almost a complete overhaul from the one in Brawl. This happened to nobody else. It feels like they want him in but again, that one thing was in his way.

 

[SPEN18]

I think the most suspicious part of it is the added moves to his assist trophy. I’ve seen it in action, and it’s almost a complete overhaul from the one in Brawl. This happened to nobody else. It feels like they want him in but again, that one thing was in his way.

I haven't played Ultimate yet, but don't Ashley, Waluigi, Lyn, Midna, Shadow, and Skull Kid still do the same stuff? Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those. Of course, it could just be because Isaac's AT wasn't in 4 that he got upgraded, but there are still a few ATs that just do one thing (nintendog, Moon, Dr. Wright, Jeff, Squid Sisters, and I think some others). Did Gray Fox, the other Brawl-exclusive AT, get an update?

 

[KoopaSaki]

Alright men. Tourney #2 has now begun. This time it’s at oblivion games. Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

 

[Falgor]

Good luck KoopaSaki !

I'd like to see less pessimism here, guys! There are many positives to look at from what we got in Ultimate:
A Mii Costume is the last step before becoming playable, and Isaac managed to get both this and an upgraded AT that Sakurai can use as a base, with maybe another already playable character such as Shulk.

Another thing to note, about Spirits: GS got the most spirits after Rhythm Heaven, but got more content on other, more important sides.
Let's note that Dark Dawn Isaac is also literally one of the best Spirits in the game, and most likely the best "Grab" Spirit of them all!
It's not a coincidence the GBA Isaac Spirit can only be found in the last part of the WoL.

Finally, I have a topic to launch!
With the way the music is handled in Ultimate (Music from "Other" series can be heard on all the stages from series without a playable rep), what's the best stage to put the two GS tracks on?
(If someone has a complete list of the corresponding stages, please share it!)

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

On another note, I’ve been thinking...

We may actually have a Tales rep on the way... but I don’t think it’s gonna be Lloyd. I’m thinking it’s gonna be Yuri. His game is about to be rereleased.

I know that Smash Ultimate hasn’t exactly catered to advertisement yet, at least not as much as Sm4sh, but it kind of makes sense. Vesperia is another one of the more popular Tales games. So if Namco wanted a rep, something tells me they’d go for him.

Low key, I’d lose my **** if Yuri got in. I wouldn’t dare tell our Lloydbros tho...

 

[SonicLink125]

I haven't played Ultimate yet, but don't Ashley, Waluigi, Lyn, Midna, Shadow, and Skull Kid still do the same stuff? Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those. Of course, it could just be because Isaac's AT wasn't in 4 that he got upgraded, but there are still a few ATs that just do one thing (nintendog, Moon, Dr. Wright, Jeff, Squid Sisters, and I think some others). Did Gray Fox, the other Brawl-exclusive AT, get an update?

So far, all the returning ATs (including Grayfox) do the same thing except being able to dodge and be KO’d. Isaac is the only one that got an overhaul and (besides Grayfox for obvious reasons) was the only cut AT to come back. That’s impressive in its own right.

 

[SPEN18]

So far, all the returning ATs (including Grayfox) do the same thing except being able to dodge and be KO’d. Isaac is the only one that got an overhaul and (besides Grayfox for obvious reasons) was the only cut AT to come back. That’s impressive in its own right.

Ok cool. The reason I was asking is that, in this case, there is pretty much no reason for them to feel compelled to update him. With just Move, he already did about as much as other popular ATs like Skull Kid, Shadow, and Ashley, who pretty much just have one main function and don't do much else IIRC. So the update wasn't just because he was being brought back from Brawl; either it was because of demand or because they just felt like it, with the latter being unlikely for a "dead" character.

Edit: spelling

 

[RandomAce]

In all honesty. Looking back at PolarPanda’s post, I think it was more time constraints with Sakurai skipping over Isaac because he didn’t have a game yet as one reason, but there’s more.

I mean, just take a look at Ultimate’s newcomers. We only got 6 new fighters, and the other 5 are echoes. Inkling and Simon were really the only two that went really far with some new stuff like Simon’s Whip and the Ink Mechanic. Ridley and Incineroar are next, with unique movesets but not really going beyond that. And finally King K. Rool has a noticeable amount of moves that seemed borrowed over, and Isabelle is a semi clone. Ken is the most unique echo, but he’s still uses Ryu as a base.

When it comes to Pirahna Plant, it seemed that Sakurai wanted a wacky character simply for the pre-order bonus since that’s a character in the end most people would at least know and enjoy as a unique addition.

This doesn’t even go with how we only 4 stages.

What I’m saying is that Isaac most likely was dropped because he wouldn’t be feasible for the base game. Isaac would’ve needed to be a unique newcomer and bring a stage along with limited resources and time for brand new content despite being lesser known than other characters that could’ve been added in that time and still appease fans (like Isabelle, and some of the echoes). They know that Isaac was extremely popular which would explain why GS got an upstart of content with Spirits of most of the main cast, Isaac’s Fully Powered Spirit (Adult Isaac) being a legendary, along with Isaac getting both a Mii Costume and an AT, because it was all the team was able to do for Isaac and GS related content.

The fact that Nintendo got taken aback by the reaction to Isaac’s AT shows that Isaac’s popularity has grown and further confirms how popular Isaac is to the Smash crowd.

Although I don’t think Isaac was in the running when the first 5 DLC were decided, I sure as hell think Isaac is very close to getting considered if Nintendo is willing to do more DLC, which I think is probable. We’re the closest we’ve been to the tipping point and now is the ripest time to show our push for Isaac as DLC. Cosplay at different events like what KoopaSaki is doing, raise awareness and support a GS and Isaac related community like Isaac: Venus Adept ‘s Twitter. Anything to show Nintendo that, yes, Isaac would be a good choice for DLC and we have people that would be more than happy to get him.

Phew this took a lot out of me.

 

[Quetzal77]

Used Isaac Mii a couple of times online just now. Hope to see more of him as more people unlock his costume!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Used Isaac Mii a couple of times online just now. Hope to see more of him as more people unlock his costume!

I wonder if Nintendo is keeping track of how often certain Mii costumes are used. Hell, if that's happening, I wonder if people using Isaac's hair to go Super Saiyan are gonna accidentally encourage a GS revival/Isaac in Smash.

 

[Xenigma]

Ok cool. The reason I was asking is that, in this case, there is pretty much no reason for them to feel compelled to update him. With just Move, he already did about as much as other popular ATs like Skull Kid, Shadow, and Ashley, who pretty much just have one main function and don't do much else IIRC. So the update wasn't just because he was being brought back from Brawl; either it was because of demand or because they just felt like it, with the latter being unlikely for a "dead" character.

This is what sticks with me. Even if you call the upgraded AT, the Spirits, and the Mii Costume a bunch of consolation prizes, the amount of attention that Golden Sun got this game is remarkable. I can't think of a good reason for us to have gotten as much as we did at the level of quality we did except for the obvious one: our support from the SSB4 days, including the ballot, made a difference. It's especially obvious given that we went from near non-existent in SSB4 to a sizeable presence in Ultimate, while most other cut ATs in particular remained cut.

Admittedly, I do remain rather pessimistic about Isaac as DLC: I have no reason to believe he's in the Fighters Pass, and even if I believe he could make the cut in a future wave, I'm not at all convinced we'll get more than that one scheduled year of content (judging by SSB4's DLC and how Nintendo handles DLC in general). In the big picture, though, I see our past efforts having had a tangible effect on Ultimate, and even now I'm seeing fans stepping up to show their support both for Isaac in Smash and more Golden Sun in general. It may take years for those efforts to bear fruit, but I do believe we're on the right track.

 

[FlawedAI]

Good luck KoopaSaki !

I'd like to see less pessimism here, guys! There are many positives to look at from what we got in Ultimate:
A Mii Costume is the last step before becoming playable, and Isaac managed to get both this and an upgraded AT that Sakurai can use as a base, with maybe another already playable character such as Shulk.

Another thing to note, about Spirits: GS got the most spirits after Rhythm Heaven, but got more content on other, more important sides.
Let's note that Dark Dawn Isaac is also literally one of the best Spirits in the game, and most likely the best "Grab" Spirit of them all!
It's not a coincidence the GBA Isaac Spirit can only be found in the last part of the WoL.

Finally, I have a topic to launch!
With the way the music is handled in Ultimate (Music from "Other" series can be heard on all the stages from series without a playable rep), what's the best stage to put the two GS tracks on?
(If someone has a complete list of the corresponding stages, please share it!)

I personally use both themes on Find Mii, since it's the closest to an RPG stage "Other" has. Weyard kinda fits Wuhu Island, I guess. Honestly, I just turned it up wherever I could to hear it as often as possible.

 

[Guynamednelson]

judging by SSB4's DLC

Keep in mind that they couldn't make more Smash 4 DLC because work on Ultimate was starting. This time around, I can see Ultimate having a lifespan similar to those of Melee and Brawl, and as an extension of how long it'll be before Smash 6, more DLC.

 

[KoopaSaki]

Tourney#2 results: I Managed to get in top 16 but I got beaten hard by a sheik and snake player. I’m not very good at the projectile game with constant pressure so I’m gonna commit to learning that matchup now. Sorry fellow adepts. I’ll improve next time.

 

[FlawedAI]

I'm still not sure on a second wave, but that conflicts with Nintendo's desire to keep the Switch alive for many years to come and keeping one of its biggest games alive for many years to come would be a good idea. This may actually convince me that a second wave is coming... I'll think it over, but I'm not confident. Although... what if successive waves are created/directed by a new person with Sakurai in an advisor role? Sakurai goes out with a bang, and a newcomer gets a nice grip with the series, and Sakurai gets to test his/her ability in fulfilling Sakurai's vision for the series, while adding their own. This could help us, since a younger head would probably be more familiar with Golden Sun, and may have a soft spot for the franchise, like Sakurai with Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade, and what Square let him do with Final Fantasy, and probably Persona, and basically any JRPG franchise outside of Golden Sun. I maintain that timing the single biggest reason Golden Sun isn't in Smash.

I still think Isaac has a pretty good shot for Wave 1, but if a Wave 2 comes around, the odds get even better. Don't lose hope, Adepts! Remember: no matter what, Sakurai is aware we exist. If Nintendo themselves had no idea, the overwhelmingly negative reaction to Isaac's Assist has to have tipped them off. Our time is soon! We need to be loud and proud about our support for Golden Sun. Obnoxious isn't the right word, but persistent is what we should strive for. A persistent, large, loud fanbase to show Nintendo that Golden Sun could be a moneymaker if it wasn't stuck on the sidelines with Advance Wars and F-Zero.

I think we were about 4-6 extra development months away from Isaac being playable, honestly. Ultimate still looks somewhat rushed to me (but it's better when actually playable the game), and Chrom sticks out like a sore thumb, with his multiple roles. Sakurai said that no one was added/dropped during Ultimate's development, but Chrom tells me that's a bold-faced lie. I'm still basically convinced that Isaac was planned but cut, and that also tells me Isaac will probably be DLC. We know Sakurai doesn't like saving content for DLC, and the game was obviously finished before DLC, so all the Golden Sun content was added to tide fans over. Isaac has to be on Sakurai's mind, and I think this will be the game where Isaac finally breaks the curse and joins Smash.

 

[Xenigma]

Keep in mind that they couldn't make more Smash 4 DLC because work on Ultimate was starting. This time around, I can see Ultimate having a lifespan similar to those of Melee and Brawl, and as an extension of how long it'll be before Smash 6, more DLC.

Sure, but it's also the only Smash game we've had in the DLC era, so I have to go by what little precedent we have. I don't think Melee and Brawl make good comparisons given they were pre-DLC, and I'm struggling to think of Nintendo games that have released DLC past a single season pass. The closest I can think of is Splatoon 2 extending its scheduled content updates, and that was only by another six months or so of free updates. I'd like to think years of support should be the norm for their more popular titles, much like how games like Street Fighter V and Tekken 7 are being handled, but I don't get the impression Nintendo operates that way as of yet.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

When even Matthew is a spirit, it's hard to tell whether Sakurai won't stick to his guns.

The best chance for anything that could change is if there's enough begging for a second fighter pass. I doubt Isaac would get in the current fighter pass, since they'll be saving lesser expected surprises there.

If not then, it's back to campaigning for a new GS.

 

[Falgor]

I personally use both themes on Find Mii, since it's the closest to an RPG stage "Other" has. Weyard kinda fits Wuhu Island, I guess. Honestly, I just turned it up wherever I could to hear it as often as possible.

I very much agree on Weyard fitting Wuhu Island, and using the two themes on Find Mii is a great idea!

 

[Lonodel]

Does anyone know where the osaac spirit is in worls of light? Not afraid of spoilers

 

[Organization XIII]

Does anyone know where the osaac spirit is in worls of light? Not afraid of spoilers

In the absolute final area of WoL.

 

[JaidynReiman]

In all honesty, recent things are starting to make me think that the insider information is complete BS and Isaac was just plain cut due to time. And they made the AT very quickly in response to that. I hesitate to jump to any conclusions, of course. But there's a few things that were pointed out to me and I noticed something with Isaac's AT as well.


For those curious about the latter, look at the hands on Isaac's AT very closely.

 

[SPEN18]

For those curious about the latter, look at the hands on Isaac's AT very closely.

Could you explain this just for the ease of everybody?

 

[tbuster766]

Could you explain this just for the ease of everybody?

I second that lol.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Alright men. Tourney #2 has now begun. This time it’s at oblivion games. Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!View attachment 182550

The man from the golden clan is back do it too it my guy you got this

 

[Undella2]

Anyone know what Vaati's spirit battle is?

-------------------------------------------------

In other news, what's going on with that glove?

When I looked at it, it didn't look any more detailed than the rest of Isaac's model.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Could you explain this just for the ease of everybody?

So here's what Isaac's hands look like in Brawl:

Doesn't look very similar, but this does:



Isaac's hands were literally ripped straight from Master Hand. Supporting the theory it was a rush job.

 

[SonicLink125]

View attachment 182597

So here's what Isaac's hands look like in Brawl:

Doesn't look very similar, but this does:
View attachment 182599


Isaac's hands were literally ripped straight from Master Hand. Supporting the theory it was a rush job.

I had this thought for awhile, but I couldn’t pin point it until now, thanks to you. Just...wow!

 

[Amtoj]

View attachment 182597

So here's what Isaac's hands look like in Brawl:

Doesn't look very similar, but this does:
View attachment 182599


Isaac's hands were literally ripped straight from Master Hand. Supporting the theory it was a rush job.

Gonna have to disagree with the theory behind this one. The best kind of assets in game development are ones that can be recycled. I bet the developers just thought a recolored Master Hand would work well enough. Modeling a new hand, as effortless as that sounds, probably wasn't considered worth the time.

 

[JaidynReiman]

The thing to note about Isaac's Brawl hand is that its rounded on the bottom. Master Hand has the appearance of it fading off into an arm, which Isaac's hands did not have in Brawl. And, well, it definitely doesn't look quite the same in Brawl, but this one is totally just a recolored, semi-transparent Master Hand.

 

[Amtoj]

The thing to note about Isaac's Brawl hand is that its rounded on the bottom. Master Hand has the appearance of it fading off into an arm, which Isaac's hands did not have in Brawl. And, well, it definitely doesn't look quite the same in Brawl, but this one is totally just a recolored, semi-transparent Master Hand.

The hand was probably different back then due to hardware constraints. Master Hand was definitely higher poly than whatever limit was imposed on Assist Trophy models. Less room to work with led to the blocky and solid looking hand. Power isn't an issue on the Switch though.

Sorry if I come off as trying to kill off any hope. I just think this isn't the proof of Isaac's status that everyone's looking for.

 

[StrawHatX]

Gonna have to disagree with the theory behind this one. The best kind of assets in game development are ones that can be recycled. I bet the developers just thought a recolored Master Hand would work well enough. Modeling a new hand, as effortless as that sounds, probably wasn't considered worth the time.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.

I want to believe they had plans for Isaac to be playable, but I just can’t see why they would feel the need to rush an AT when they already have a costume and a bunch of GS spirits. It’s not like we had an Isaac AT in Smash 4 and we’d all think it would be suspicious if it was missing. So I don’t see why they’d feel the need to have to make one.

 

[SonicLink125]

Anyone know what Vaati's spirit battle is?

-------------------------------------------------

In other news, what's going on with that glove?

When I looked at it, it didn't look any more detailed than the rest of Isaac's model.

I have yet to find Vaati, but I did find him in the shop!

Can’t buy him though. Too poor. :’(

 

[StrawHatX]

I STILL have yet to find Isaac in the spirit adventure mode. Does anyone know where he is? The only one I found was Felix. I got Jenna and Garet from the spirit board.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Tourney#2 results: I Managed to get in top 16 but I got beaten hard by a sheik and snake player. I’m not very good at the projectile game with constant pressure so I’m gonna commit to learning that matchup now. Sorry fellow adepts. I’ll improve next time.View attachment 182571

That’s alright bud, just keep playing and improve your game!

 

[NoOtherPersona]

tbuster766 if ya need a hype man just let me know I do that for free

 

[JaidynReiman]

I STILL have yet to find Isaac in the spirit adventure mode. Does anyone know where he is? The only one I found was Felix. I got Jenna and Garet from the spirit board.

Yes, I know where he is, but its a bit of a spoiler. But he's basically at the way, way end of WoL.

Spoiler: MAJOR WoL SPOILERS

Galeem isn't the end. There's two entirely new maps afterwards. Isaac is in the third one.

 

[StrawHatX]

Yes, I know where he is, but its a bit of a spoiler. But he's basically at the way, way end of WoL.

Spoiler: MAJOR WoL SPOILERS

Galeem isn't the end. There's two entirely new maps afterwards. Isaac is in the third one.

Thank you. I’m on the second one. I figured there was probably a third.

 

[SonicLink125]

Aaaaahhhh!!! I’m so close!!!