Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[TheSpaceKing12]

If we’re going all third party for this roster, and among them, a western character, it comes down between crash bandicoot or the doom slayer. Both have an insanely strong argument from a purely historical standpoint. As for feasibilty? Well Joker destroys any and all “is this feasible?” Arguments when it comes to third parties.

I’m a bit of a crash support myself. But I’d be happy with either. Though I don’t think that’s the route we’re taking. The dlc has a budget. And while it’s fair to say Nintnedo probably got joker for dirt cheap (Atlus’s is a very small company, after all) [theyre more independent from sega than you’d initially think] they don’t have the cash to throw around to just get unlimited crazy third party additions. Maybe one or two BIG ones. But no more. If we are going all third party, (which I doubt) then expect one huge character, and 4 smaller ones, joker being among the ‘smaller’ ones. And by smaller I mean wacky. 2B, for instance, comes to my mind.

 

[KMDP]

I have a question, what set-up, by which I mean Specials and Voice, do you think is best for an Isaac Mii Fighter?

I have Blurring Blade, Gale Stab, Stone Scabbard and Power Thrust as his specials, with Type 1 (High) as his voice. My set-up could definitely use improvement.

 

[JaidynReiman]

If we’re going all third party for this roster, and among them, a western character, it comes down between crash bandicoot or the doom slayer. Both have an insanely strong argument from a purely historical standpoint. As for feasibilty? Well Joker destroys any and all “is this feasible?” Arguments when it comes to third parties.

I’m a bit of a crash support myself. But I’d be happy with either. Though I don’t think that’s the route we’re taking. The dlc has a budget. And while it’s fair to say Nintnedo probably got joker for dirt cheap (Atlus’s is a very small company, after all) [theyre more independent from sega than you’d initially think] they don’t have the cash to throw around to just get unlimited crazy third party additions. Maybe one or two BIG ones. But no more. If we are going all third party, (which I doubt) then expect one huge character, and 4 smaller ones, joker being among the ‘smaller’ ones. And by smaller I mean wacky. 2B, for instance, comes to my mind.

I'd honestly argue someone else, anyone else, over 2B. 2B is already in SC6. SE would probably push for a different crossover. I'd sooner bet on Geno or Crono (SE hasn't done anything with Crono in forever and he'd be a hype as hell addition).


And yeah, if its all third-party, guaranteed, 4/5 are Joker level or lower. Persona 5 is only about 2m in sales and Persona is a small IP. Persona 5 is just the first huge breakout success for Persona (the entire series has about 9m sales, 2.2m of which is on Persona 5 alone, that tells you exactly how well it sold).

Lloyd Irving is easily a top candidate because of this. I'm super confident he is in.

Maybe Koei could get a character, but Joker doesn't really help other companies much because he's another Sega character. Still leaning on only one new company's involvement at most (which is probably "the big one").


1 could be something huge and probably will be. But people are really sleeping on AT promotions. Isaac hits all the right buttons, they can promote a new GS game (assuming one is in development), and he'd be way cheaper to make than any third-parties. They have an easy system in place to disable AT's on specific stages, they could easily use this mechanic to disable the AT if that character is already present (except for spirit battles of course, but that's really not a big deal).

 

[TempestSurge]

I don't mean to be that guy, but I don't think the first wave of DLC being all third party is good for Isaac' chances. Lets say we do get a wave 2 of DLC that means that FE Three Houses and Pokemon Gen 8 will be out already, and nintendo will want to promote them. If we get 5 characters again then two of them go to game promotion. Sakurai already expressed interest in adding Rex, and only excluded him because his game was released too late into Smash's development. Rex is also very popular in Japan an has Sakurai bias behind him. In this scenario what is really stopping him from adding Rex. That leaves 2 spots left. Isaac would have to compete with third party characters, other popular nintendo characters, and other assist trophies if they do decide to upgade assists. Lets hope nintendo gets their game promotions out of their system before wave 2 of DLC.

If Nintendo wants to add a Gen 8 and Three Houses rep, I don't see why they wouldn't just do that in wave 1, instead of holding them off all the way until after 2020 and then however long the next wave of dlc will be. That would just seem to mean they were always planning to do a wave 2 regardless, if they went all third parties, but I don't see why Nintendo wouldn't add their own characters in the first wave if they have plans to want to do it in the first place.

It makes sense to do promotion characters like that in the first wave of dlc anyways, to attract new players to Smash. If they do a second wave, and we assume it'll take the same amount of time (so if after wave 1 ends in early 2020 and they had plans for a wave 2 and it takes the same amount of time, up to say 2022) then Smash Ultimate will be four years old, most of the casual player base diving into a shiny new game will likely have begun to move on or play the game less. Adding in Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee etc. and just wrapping the rest of the fan favorite characters people have been clamouring for in a neat little bow for the end of dlc would be a nice little send off to the dedicated fan base that tends to play every Smash until the development of the next one. It won't be as if people will stop asking for these same characters every Smash cycle.

If not, I sooner see Nintendo promoting even newer characters in that future wave 2, as I remember when Chrom used to top the Japanese polls, there will most likely be another release of a game where the recency then makes that character the most wanted to include in Smash, especially since there can be another Corrin scenario where said characters game won't even need to be out to be added (at least in all regions I suppose).

Though at this point, Isaac showing up in Ultimate as potential DLC down the line is something that would be a nice surprise to hope for. Having the the closure of the assist and Mii costume just saves me from being glued to insiders info for another two years and I can just sit back and see what Nintendo has cooked up for the rest of the DLC. So while I still enjoy reading theories and will still hope for Isaac in some fashion, I'm far from worrying and stressing over it.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Also, remember Snake got in because Kojima asked Sakurai for him. I'm still not sure about western style and western third parties becoming common in Smash.

Anyways, I don't think Isaac will be in wave 1. We can hope for wave 2, which I'm pretty sure will happen, but Isaac being a part of it is a wild card. We must not give up on pushing for him, no matter how many times people tell us to shut up. As long as we are not bothering Sakurai himself, it should be ok

The main thing giving me hope for a second wave is there being six remaining spaces on the stage select screen. Potentially leaving room for a "more" button like in the 3ds version.

Of course this idea could easily fall apart if we get a bonus stage outside of the five stages we'll be getting in the fighter packs. So it's by no means an air tight theory.

I think it's worth considering though even if they think it's possible that they'll add more characters beyond this fighter wave they're not going to commit to it this early and without having actually decided on the characters.

I do think all bets could be off for a second dlc wave if it happens but I'm still hesitant to think Isaac is remotely likely. That said my lack of my hope doesn't affect how much I want to support Isaac and Golden Sun. I've planted my flag here and that's where I'm going to stay, regardless of what happens.

 

[Istry555]

So, I honestly think Reggie more or less just confirmed that all the DLC will be third party, and not just third party but a majority of characters with little to no association with Nintendo:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/1...blematic-of-smash-bros-ultimates-dlc-approach

"[Joker is] emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC."

"Fils-Aime explained that Sakurai and the team working on Ultimate’s DLC don’t necessarily see characters from franchises not typically associated with Nintendo as a limiting factor when it comes to Smash Bros: 'Mr. Sakurai, he's not only a student of Nintendo franchises, and obviously he's had his hand in a few, but he's a student of video games from a total perspective.'"

This next quote not specifically about Smash but seems to be Reggie's/Nintendo's general attitude and probably informed stuff: "Our job is to continue growing the install base for Nintendo Switch to drive engagement of our players, to grow the audience. As that happens, then developers see the opportunity."

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

So, I honestly think Reggie more or less just confirmed that all the DLC will be third party, and not just third party but a majority of characters with little to no association with Nintendo:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/1...blematic-of-smash-bros-ultimates-dlc-approach

"[Joker is] emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC."

"Fils-Aime explained that Sakurai and the team working on Ultimate’s DLC don’t necessarily see characters from franchises not typically associated with Nintendo as a limiting factor when it comes to Smash Bros: 'Mr. Sakurai, he's not only a student of Nintendo franchises, and obviously he's had his hand in a few, but he's a student of video games from a total perspective.'"

This next quote not specifically about Smash but seems to be Reggie's/Nintendo's general attitude and probably informed stuff: "Our job is to continue growing the install base for Nintendo Switch to drive engagement of our players, to grow the audience. As that happens, then developers see the opportunity."

Yah, it's looking pretty bleak for most Nintendo characters right now.
With how things are going I think I'm taking a break from speculation until we get the character announcement. The net has just been cast too wide to be able to properly discuss any possibilities, I feel.

Still gonna be around and spreading the Isaac love when I can but in terms of thinking about what Nintendo/Sakurai could do, I'm on a break.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

How would you guys feel if the rest of the dlc was 3rd parties and if so what 3rd parties do you want I'd want at least for the last 4
Ryu H
Dragon Quest anything
Lloyd
Dante just so him and bayo can fight

Dante
Crash
Lloyd
Scorpion

 

[THE 6r]

How would you guys feel if the rest of the dlc was 3rd parties and if so what 3rd parties do you want I'd want at least for the last 4
Ryu H
Dragon Quest anything
Lloyd
Dante just so him and bayo can fight

Lloyd (or Heihachi, I'm fine with ether one)
Professor Layton
Wonder Red
Banjo & Kazooie

 

[ZelDan]

Master Chief
Sans
Crash Bandicoot
SE character

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've seen people suggest things like Dragon Quest, Tomb Raider, and NieR for Smash for the sake of series representation but what sets Persona and Joker apart is that Smash fans actually wanted them in Smash. The first three have like no demand. That's why Joker was such a big deal. A decent number of people wanted Persona/Shin Megami Tensei content in Smash but thought it was impossible. Granted, Joker was usually like top 30-50 range in fan polls but was still there where as virtually no one is demanding Dragon Quest characters or Lara Croft. Joker is super similar to Cloud and Bayonetta in that regard.

 

[Undella2]

Should we start a campaign for Assist Trophy promotions once this wave of DLC is 'bout half over?

 

[Xenigma]

Should we start a campaign for Assist Trophy promotions once this wave of DLC is 'bout half over?

Maybe, but I'm not entirely certain it's needed. If we take the one rumor that NoA was surprised by the response to Isaac's AT reveal at its word, plus the previous, public acknowledgement of Waluigi's support, we have a track record of Nintendo being surprised by how much people like these AT characters, which would presumably influence their decision-making when considering further DLC. That's not to say we shouldn't campaign, but it would seem we are a known entity at this point, so the best thing we can do is encourage Nintendo to actually pursue a wave 2, given that is hardly a guarantee, and from there vouch for Isaac/ATs/whatever as examples of the further DLC we want to buy.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Maybe, but I'm not entirely certain it's needed. If we take the one rumor that NoA was surprised by the response to Isaac's AT reveal at its word, plus the previous, public acknowledgement of Waluigi's support, we have a track record of Nintendo being surprised by how much people like these AT characters, which would presumably influence their decision-making when considering further DLC. That's not to say we shouldn't campaign, but it would seem we are a known entity at this point, so the best thing we can do is encourage Nintendo to actually pursue a wave 2, given that is hardly a guarantee, and from there vouch for Isaac/ATs/whatever as examples of the further DLC we want to buy.

Where did that rumour come from? First I've heard of it.

 

[Istry555]

I really don't think there's going to be a second wave of DLC... it's just not the pattern Nintendo has done with their games in the past.

I do think there might (small might) be a possibility that Waluigi will be announced as an extra bonus DLC after the fighter's pack is finished, if only because Nintendo has actually commented on the "outcry" (which would annoy me to no end because Nintendo also doesn't realize most of that outcry was just meme posting and I don't feel complaining and internet trolling is a way to get something you want and shouldn't be rewarded). However, if this happens, I feel it would be a special case and there won't be any more characters afterwards.

I've seen people suggest things like Dragon Quest, Tomb Raider, and NieR for Smash for the sake of series representation but what sets Persona and Joker apart is that Smash fans actually wanted them in Smash. The first three have like no demand.

I'd agree with the rest, but Dragon Quest would be a beyond hype reveal for Japan which is all that probably matters. I really don't think it's "Nintendo" choosing so much as specifically Nintendo of Japan that's choosing the characters, and they know their audience would love a Dragon Quest character if possible.

 

[Xenigma]

Where did that rumour come from? First I've heard of it.

This post, which was talked about on this thread a week or so ago. I have no idea how credible it is, but it's certainly plausible enough.

 

[Deleted member]

I tried to make an accurate Isaac Mii.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Honestly I think people would be surprised at the kind of stuff that flies here in Japan. It's not at all uncommon to see Japanese actors in blackface on TV, and the "Okama" homosexual trope is still played for laughs all the damn time. It's pretty gross.

With that said, having not read the stuff you linked, I never got the feeling that Atlus/Persona specifically was pushing some kind of anti-LGBT agenda? I heard about the ending of Catherine and that was definitely pretty bad, but I think it lines up with the general homophobia/transphobia that's pretty common in Japan. I'm not saying that to give them a pass, just to say that it's (sadly) not something exclusive to Persona, and you also have to weigh the fact that Kanji, one of the main characters from Persona 4, is canonically gay and (to my mind) was treated fairly respectfully and with actual nuance, by Japanese standards anyway.

That is to say, you're not wrong by any means, and I'm not trying to whataboutism this, but Cloud in Final Fantasy VII also cross-dressed as a woman in a brothel, nearly got sexually assaulted, and Barret is a pretty yikes black stereotype, but it was still cool to see Cloud join the fray in Smash. I think it's OK for people to be excited about Joker being in and it's also OK to feel as you do as well. I just wanted to add in my two cents there and say that I don't think it's quite as black and white as "Atlus hates LGBT." To my knowledge at least they're not on Chic-Fil-A's level at least where they're actively donating to hate groups.

EDIT: as for some of the fans of Atlus' games being pretty toxic, no argument there. But I'm not sure how that reflects on the company themselves. Rick and Morty fans, Kingdom Hearts fans, Call of Duty fans, etc. etc. all have VERY vocal and obnoxious and awful segments of their fanbases but I don't think it's fair to pin that on the company unless it's something that they actively stoke.

EDIT 2: Just because I didn't make it clear in my original post: what I'm getting at is that Japan is a different culture with a different history and different values and we can't judge them by 2018 Western liberal values. That goes without saying, of course. But the progressive movement in the United States and the widespread acceptance of LGBTQ+ individuals in North America and Europe is a VERY recent and far from complete phenomenon, and it just takes time. Japan is still a pretty homogeneous place (not as much as people think but that's another story) with a lot of very conservative worldviews when it comes to stuff like this. I do my best to engage my Japanese friends in conversation about this stuff or call out things that offend me when I see them, but it's slow going.

WHAT THE ****!?

 

[Deleted member]

And I got my wig, so my Isaac Mii is complete. I'll start taking pictures tonight.

 

[Pwnapplez]

Guys...I did it...I unlocked 50 Cent

 

[Nazyrus]

I tried to make an accurate Isaac Mii.

View attachment 182227

So far this looks way better yeah.

 

[StarDustStorm]

I got the whole Isaac Mii set, and I wonder what voice option I should give him?

 

[GoodGrief741]

View attachment 182235
Guys...I did it...I unlocked 50 Cent

I knew he was in Smash!

 

[Fatmanonice]

I really don't think there's going to be a second wave of DLC... it's just not the pattern Nintendo has done with their games in the past.


I'd agree with the rest, but Dragon Quest would be a beyond hype reveal for Japan which is all that probably matters. I really don't think it's "Nintendo" choosing so much as specifically Nintendo of Japan that's choosing the characters, and they know their audience would love a Dragon Quest character if possible.

I see this argument a lot but it goes against Sakurai's entire philosophy of character selections. He's noted time and time again that global appeal is important and was so concerned about this that Marth and Roy were almost cut from the NA and EU versions of Melee. That said, Marth is the last 100% unique character that's gotten into Smash solely because of Japanese demand and that was 17 years ago.

 

[SPEN18]

I see this argument a lot but it goes against Sakurai's entire philosophy of character selections.

Well, Sakurai's philosophy probably doesn't matter much when NoJ is picking the characters.

I don't think Sakurai would be able to reject something like a DQ character just because it's less known in the West.

Edit: also the arrival of my Smash game via mail was delayed. I'll get it within a few days, though (or at least I hope)

 

[Bassoonist]

How would you guys feel if the rest of the dlc was 3rd parties and if so what 3rd parties do you want I'd want at least for the last 4
Ryu H
Dragon Quest anything
Lloyd
Dante just so him and bayo can fight

IMO:
1. Sora
2. Amaterasu (Okami)
3. Phoenix Wright

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of third parties I love. Persona 5 was actually one, so it was kind of neat to see Joker. I really need to try Tales and Dragon Quest someday.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

If the remaining dlc characters are third parties (and spirits disconfirm characters) then I'm hoping for...

Banjo & Kazooie
Phoenix Wright
Monokuma
Lloyd Irving

I don't have any confidence in Monokuma but it would be super cool.

 

[Silo777]

Just got the Isaac set. Pretty bittersweet, but if any of y’all wanna play Isaac dittos, my friend code is SW-6288-1035-8611

 

[Luigifan18]

If the remaining dlc characters are third parties (and spirits disconfirm characters) then I'm hoping for...

Banjo & Kazooie
Phoenix Wright
Monokuma
Lloyd Irving

I don't have any confidence in Monokuma but it would be super cool.

That reminds me, someone needs to wake up the Monokuma thread.
Also, there's now a tiiinnnyyyy chance of Moge-ko somehow getting into the game, if Nintendo doesn't mind making a lot of people rather uncomfortable. Maybe I should finally get around to making her support thread.

 

[Sentinel07]

Honestly, the only other 3rd Party I can truly say I'd be excited for is a Tales character.

Most of the other 3rd parties I have either no emotional attachment to (Banjo, Shantae), neutral towards (Sora), or flat out dislike (Steve).

 

[ChronoBound]

I unlocked every character in the game and now I want to create Mii fighters of all the characters that got costumes. What is the best Isaac Mii you guys have (I already have the full Isaac costume)? Is there anyway for a Switch to import such a Mii without having to do it manually?

 

[Deleted member]

If we're gonna be talking about DLC cost, I think the advantage might now be Activision. A few years ago, I'd say it'd be impossible to get them for anything, but with the whole Skylanders franchise being dead now and them seeing market value in Crash and Spyro, they'll be willing to play ball. Will they be cheap? Probably not. But, looking at Bethesda right now and how incompetent they have been in the past 4-5 years since Todd Gordon has taken control of the organization (Fallout 76 is not the exception) & his master quest to make everything just about The Elder Scrolls, and I'm more confident we will see Crash than the Doom Marine in the game.

 

[StarDustStorm]

I unlocked every character in the game and now I want to create Mii fighters of all the characters that got costumes. What is the best Isaac Mii you guys have (I already have the full Isaac costume)? Is there anyway for a Switch to import such a Mii without having to do it manually?

You have to save a mii to an Amiibo from a Wii U or 3DS console.

 

[SPEN18]

Honestly, the only other 3rd Party I can truly say I'd be excited for is a Tales character.

Most of the other 3rd parties I have either no emotional attachment to (Banjo, Shantae), neutral towards (Sora), or flat out dislike (Steve).

Yeah when it comes to third parties I'm basically just rooting for the Lloyd bros. and Banjo. I'd also be alright with Rayman. But none of these are at the top of my list

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I've seen people suggest things like Dragon Quest, Tomb Raider, and NieR for Smash for the sake of series representation but what sets Persona and Joker apart is that Smash fans actually wanted them in Smash. The first three have like no demand. That's why Joker was such a big deal. A decent number of people wanted Persona/Shin Megami Tensei content in Smash but thought it was impossible. Granted, Joker was usually like top 30-50 range in fan polls but was still there where as virtually no one is demanding Dragon Quest characters or Lara Croft. Joker is super similar to Cloud and Bayonetta in that regard.

I want a dragon quest mostly because of its history and the fact that the series has been with Nintendo for a long time I don't know anything about Lara tho I wouldn't really want her lol

 

[KoopaSaki]

I want a dragon quest mostly because of its history and the fact that the series has been with Nintendo for a long time I don't know anything about Lara tho I wouldn't really want her lol

Starting my first ever smash ultimate tourney as my quest for golden sun revival begins! Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Starting my first ever smash ultimate tourney as my quest for golden sun revival begins! Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

Good luck my friend safe travels and may we meet on the battlefield

 

[tbuster766]

Starting my first ever smash ultimate tourney as my quest for golden sun revival begins! Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

Good luck man!

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Starting my first ever smash ultimate tourney as my quest for golden sun revival begins! Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

Good luck! We're all rooting for you man

 

[SonicLink125]

Starting my first ever smash ultimate tourney as my quest for golden sun revival begins! Wish me the best of luck fellow adepts!

Yeah! You go, dude! Keep the dream alive! We’re all rooting for you!

Speaking of Tournaments, the one I participated in was crazy. I’m still in disbelief that I got second place (used Link). The one that got first was a Link main and he played insanely good. Yet, several people wanted to 1on1 me instead because apparently they never seen a player (me) that uses the Wiimote+Nunchuck control style. Haha! It was a lot of fun!