Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[AlliwantisIsaac]

I'm a big MH fan too so yea I can see what you're referring to. Makes me realize that one of the potential DLC could also be a monster hunter rep.

Possibly. I'd pay for that but i prefer my golden boi.

 

[Metocles]

There's a ton of depth to that question. And in order to get to the bottom of it, I have to give you a summation of how Golden Sun almost certainly fits into the sphere of game production. I have a lot of experience with game sales and analysis thereof. So follow me. This will be a long comment.

The first golden sun game sold 1.7 million copies. That would suggest a high profit margin. But the problem we have to consider there is A, the games development cycle, which given it started as a 64 game, is fair to assume was troubled getting off the ground. And the standard MSRP of a GBA game at launch (30 dollars, if I recall) [However, the studio is not making 30 per game, as the publisher takes a cut, as well as the stores where games are sold, it would be more like 15] was a formula for commercial disappointment. While far from an outright flop. It's suffice to say that commercial turn around was not as strong as Nintendo corporate was hoping for with a shiny new IP, that was was initially pitched as Nintendo's reply for Final fantasy and other PlayStation rpgs. And given it's visual style, which was boundary pushing given what was capable on GBA. This game was probably a pretty penny when compared to the average production of a GBA game. They made money, but not as much as they wanted.

That's where things start to go downhill. Usually when you have a lukewarm commercial victory, the publisher will allow you to do a sequel, under the pretense that said sequel MUST sell even better to compensate for under performance of the first title. If Sales increase, that is indicative of a brand with massive staying power, as that would mean word of mouth carried the title, and hype continued to grow title over title. The Lost age sold 1.2 million. This was likely a big disappointment for Nintendo. The lost age's production was likely no where near as expensive as the first game, due to asset re-use and not have to program an engine from scratch. But this decreased cost did not make the difference necessary for Nintendo to green light further sequels.

Dark Dawn is an industry example of what is known as developer bet, and or passion project. These are often spurred by a combination of fan demand, developer passion, and sometimes proper timing. These are typically games that corporate really didn't want to do, but devs on high in the studio had to push really, really hard for it. Staking both credibility and reputation on the line in order to achieve. Nintendo would reluctantly give the go ahead. However, the bar for entry of a DS game production is leaps and bounds higher than that of a GBA game. So the already dwindling staff of the Original two titles was essentially boned from the start. Dark Dawn sold 850K copies. From there, nintendo corporate puts the IP on ice indefinitely. The sales have trended downward from the first title onward, and Dark Dawn actually lost the studio money. With this loss, it's suffice to say people at Camelot lost a lot of creative freedom as punishment for their gamble.

This isn't all supposition. This is plugging Golden Sun into the time tested and time approved formula by which the whole of the game industry operates. The almighty dollar is the dictate by which everything is ran. Golden Sun would have likely fared better as a Nintendo Gamecube game. As the high production values, in combination with excellent design would have led to a more sustainable formula. As the higher values would be offset by the higher standard cost of a video game. 1.7 million copies sold at 50 dollars a game, is a massively higher turn around than that of 1.7 million at 30 dollars a game. Even in scenarios where the GBA game costs 2 million to make, and the Gamecube game is more like 8 million. (these are estimates, cost on both sides can go far higher or lower depending on marketing push)

The ideal for Nintendo right now is to go cover every IP in the catalog. The Switch is a rare kind of platform. It has caused a significant boon in the raw sales data of nearly every franchise that nintendo owns to touch it. While on ice IP's haven't been tested yet. It's suffice to say this would make for a massive boon as well. Nintendo would be most interested in a remake of Golden Sun 1. As it is both the most commercially, and critically successful title in the series. We have seen a very significant increase in sales RPG's on switch specifically. This is a rare opportunity for Nintendo to actually consider the production of a new title. As the timing is ripe. However. This where a problem is presented. The vast majoirty of the Golden Sun team no longer operates at Camelot. And Nintendo is not going to make the mistake of placing a shattered team on a new production once more. This time, and even MORE shattered team. And given the historically shakey commercial history of the series, Nintendo's best interest would be to oversea the external production of a new title under a new development studio.

The studio in question will need large experience with RPG's. So Nintendo's first order of business would be finding a developer who can work cheap enough, where if the new title fails, there is no huge loss incurred. This is where things get very murky. I say it's suffice to assume that some things have been considered internally. Merely on account of the golden sun series new trademark. However, finding the proper team that has both the talent, and works cheap enough, in order to avoid risk, is key. If a developer is found that would be willing in the next year or two, expect a remake of Golden Sun 1.

Golden Sun 1 is statistically the most likely to sell. Most likely to review well, and in this day and age, first parties are starting to care more about quality than raw game sales. but nintendo is still fickle, don't expect a new custom robo or F-zero verry soon. An extremely good game is lfar more likely to move consoles to more niche audiences. This for instance, is how Xenoblade can remain a strong force despite questionable sales. Xenoblade fans will buy consoles to buy new xenoblade games. And even if those games sell poorly, the first party in question will make the money back in sales of games like Mario Odessey, and other titles. As a Xenoblade fan who wasn't interested in the console for Mario Odessey, is still likely to go back and buy it now that they own the console. and by extension, the only place to play it.

It's an "every console matters" approach that we are seeing adopted more and more, especially by Sony, who fund's small games just because their bigger games will pay for them, and the overall critical and variety based aspect of the library is increased. If Nintendo wishes to move this policy to more IP's, Golden Sun stands out as a prime candidate. I wouldn't hold out hope to fiercely. But I would argue that Golden Sun is a series that's true commerical potential has never been seen. The closest would be the first title on GBA, which was drastically bottlenecked on account of being an unproven IP at the time, and the standards MSRP of a GBA game holding the end numbers back severely

There's good points you make, but I don't think it's as pragmatic as you make it sound.

Golden Sun passes all of the tests you would want it to in terms of sales for an RPG. Even Dark Dawn's 500k-850k is really not bad.

And 1.8m on your first attempt in a new series being an RPG, no less, is something that not even games like Xenoblade Chronicles can claim. Somewhere in the 300k-500k in the RPG genre is considered to be 'good'. For perspective, Earthbound was considered a dud when it hit the US, only getting up to 140,000 copies sold. But Mother 2 and Mother 3 happened without a hitch despite that.

1.8m and 1.2m are just bank in comparison, even if you saw a decline from one to the other. Let's draw a comparison to the beginnings of the Final Fantasy franchise. Before that game, Square was doing garbage financial wise. FFI gets released to a total of 1.3m combined copies sold. This is still considered to be one of the largest success stories for a company. Sorry to say, Nintendo are just idiots if they don't pursue Golden Sun looking at its original numbers, not to mention that I just don't buy it.

Let's look at another series, Fire Emblem. Awakening was the very first time the franchise actually surpassed 1 million copies sold. How many games were released before that point for the series? Twelve. Some of those twelve you can really consider to be absolute failures considering how many times the development team could work in order to get it right. Even to this day, most of them haven't even eclipsed 500,000k in copies sold being re-released on virtual consoles and new systems.

Golden Sun puts nearly everything in the genre to shame for a first in its series outside of legends like Chrono Trigger. As far as how much cost it was to produce the game with its graphics style and all of the over the top summons, I'm not really sure. Would Golden Sun really be double the costs of some of its contemporaries though? Some 2000-2001 RPGs: Breath of Fire IV, Dark Cloud, Final Fantasy IX, Grandia II, Dragon Warrior VII, Paper Mario (1.37m for those curious), Persona 2 Eternal Punishment, Pokemon Crystal, Skies of Arcadia, Tales of Eternia, Jade Cocoon 2.

I think some of these would cost just as much. In particular Grandia II and Jade Cocoon 2. Grandia II only sold something like 200,000k copies and there was still a Grandia III and another Grandia spinoff Japan only the same year 2 came out.

From what I've seen of various documentaries done, Nintendo actually is somewhat hands off when it comes to the development of things. I watched something recently about GameFreak and the origins of the Pokemon Company when they made the originals. Nintendo didn't even give them a dime for the production and they were the ones responsible for the game itself. I actually get the feeling that Camelot could do basically do the same thing if it really wanted to and it were managed better. Instead it really feels like they're afraid to do many experimental things and stick with Mario Sports games. Evidence of that is with Intelligent Systems and their gigantic library of Fire Emblem attempts with some Wars games mixed in.

There are gaming studios that pump out literally dozens of games we've never heard about until it's 9th iteration where it finally gets big and people go through the entire series to find that all of the past games were also quality product.

With Camelot, I think it's less of a desire thing and more of talent and ability thing. They're very afraid of moving money around to hire new staff to work on another RPG because it's just not what their company does anymore. The same people that were there in the days of Shining Force and Golden Sun are gone save for a Takahashi brother or two.

I mean, maybe you're right in your analysis as to why these things don't happen for our beloved series. Just from the outside looking in for me it doesn't feel that way.

 

[hustler713]

I'm sorry but this comment is 100% un-called for. Sakurai has not only given us Ridley, King K Rool, & Simon Belmont but he also brought back every last fighter from all the past games! And on top of that we actually have what looks to be a good adventure mode this time. Yeah sure maybe the story won't be much to write home about the same could be said for Smash Bros Brawl. As for Pokemon, that's always been the case for Smash Bros, we have always had a new Pokemon Rep in every single Smash Bros game, why people don't expect that to happen this time is beyond me. Same for Piranha Plant, we've always had a "WTF Character" in Smash Bros. Smash Bros 64 has Jigglypuff, Smash Bros Melee had Pichu, Smash Bros Brawl had ROB, and Smash Bros 4 had Wii Fit Trainer. Saying that Sakurai doesn't listen to the fans is downright insulting after all the hard work him and his team has put in.

That's exactly what i said. He listened to the Fans partially. He gave us K Rool, Ridley and the Belmonts, but the next Big Fan Bases Waluigi, Us Isaac Fans or spring man supporters, got ****ed over.

I know that every Game had one of those WTF Chars, a pokemon rep and an NES Rep, but why should this continue? Why wasn't Sakurai able to just make the Chars that were requested? Why did he have to satisfy his weird Taste again, while screwing other Fan Bases over?
It could be that the Roster of this Game is better than 4s, it is not that bad ibjectively you're right, but i honestly i still didn't forgive him 4s base roster. I still didn't forgive him brawls gameplay. This Game should have been flawless for me to warm up with him. I personally don't have anything against those Chars per se, my problem is that those chars take places from fighter which would deserve the spot much more.

And yeah inceniroar isn't that bad, i will use him a few times for sure, Ken was on my wishlist before. so yeah i can even accept inceniroar.
But tell me, HOW the **** did a plant that cones out of tubes and spits fireballs in it's origin game deserve a spot? That's exactly that stuff that caused me to hate sakurai back in the day.

 

[Darkfur]

Hey...daddy isaac is NOT deconfirmed!!!

I'd be pretty ecstatic at this actually. Daddy Isaac is pretty Woof. And that is exactly what his name needs to be. Imagine Xander shouting that. xP

Edit: Spelling cleanup

 

[Xevious 1]

The Grinch leaker right now.

I think the biggest issue with the direct is the assist trophy slaughter, almost no one likes AT because they usually "deconfirm" deserving characters. Iike Isaac or Skull Kid. I would rather not have any GS content be in the base game if that still left the door for Isaac to be DLC. The Shantae thread has been looking up lately due to her being in the game, but not as an AT. Which means she is on Sakurai's mind and not deconfirmed, leaving her open for DLC.

Granted AT meaning that characters wont appear in the same title as DLC is a fan made rule, not based on anything Sakurai said, nothing is stopping him from just tweaking the AT trophy model to use as a character while removing said character as an AT, it just hasn't happened yet.

 

[Flynn.Scifo]

Id be pretty ecstatic at this actually. Daddy Isaac is prettu Woof. And thaybis exactly what his name needs to be. Imagine Xander shouting that. xP

Daddy Isaac is husbando material.

 

[Huanchi]

https://youtu.be/-QyQWFVRDQE

At 3:15:40 you can see Isaac in action...he mixes up his attacks a bit and can teleport . they say something about him " robin ... " but i cant understand japanese

 

[Solbliminal]

After having time to soak up the Direct, yeah. Piranha Plant is disappointing in terms of character. But the thing looks admittedly fun to play, which is fine.

What has my hype leveled out at the moment is the DLC. And I sincerely hope Isaac will be considered among the 5. I got a bit glum seeing him, Shadow, Spring Man and Bomberman basically get shafted. But DLC also leaves open even more possibilities. Since its now confirmed I'm willing to talk about it.

Y'all already know who I want. ... 2B

 

[Frosty Pops]

Who says he's not?

As we've discussed before, the "AT's cannot be playable" is a fan rule. And as we all know very well, Sakurai loves turning expectations of their heads.

Use adult Isaac so "technically" we have an awesome character who still differintiates from the assist. Plus his beard and design are pretty awesome.

 

[Metocles]

The Grinch leaker right now.

I think the biggest issue with the direct is the assist trophy slaughter, almost no one likes AT because they usually "deconfirm" deserving characters. Iike Isaac or Skull Kid. I would rather not have any GS content be in the base game if that still left the door for Isaac to be DLC. The Shantae thread has been looking up lately due to her being in the game, but not as an AT. Which means she is on Sakurai's mind and not deconfirmed, leaving her open for DLC.

Granted AT meaning that characters wont appear in the same title as DLC is a fan made rule, not based on anything Sakurai said, nothing is stopping him from just tweaking the AT trophy model to use as a character while removing said character as an AT, it just hasn't happened yet.

A youtuber named Red, who I like to watch, has covered a bit of this. Back in the days of Brawl, most people generally were okay with ATs because we felt that they were basically runner-ups. Sakurai sometimes refers to them as such. Specifically the humanoid or more fleshed out ones because they are basically half of the way there. Come Sm4sh... the only one that did was Little Mac and that quickly changed everyone's minds about ATs.

At that point most Smash players realized that ATs feel like a kind of purgatory/limbo space. Some awkward holding pattern that are anything but runner-ups. Sakurai could reject anything he wants, yeah, but we'll have to see to believe it.

I also watched the part of the video that Huanchi posted above, and it looks like it's true. All Isaac does is hands, hands, hands. There's not really much of an upgrade in terms of what he's doing on stage other than teleporting and grabbing sometimes.

 

[Deleted member]

The main question is this: has Sakurai played Golden Sun and did he like it?

I have no shame in admitting that, as a Xenoblade fan, I have definitely been catered to because Sakurai enjoyed Xenoblade 1 and LOVED Xenoblade 2. I have no reason to believe that Shulk would've EVER gotten in if Sakurai hadn't played XC1 and, even though the game was just a BIT too late, the amount of content from XC2 in the very short timespan between XC2 and Ultimate even though the project plan was already finalized shows that he really really really loves this game. And if there's ever a second wave of DLC or a Smash 6, Rex is at the top of the newcomer list 100%.

However, as a Zelda fan, I can also say that Zelda in terms of characters has been shunted pretty hard- 3 Links, Zelda, Sheik, and a sort-of-semiclone Ganondorf is all we have. And the reason for that? Sakurai doesn't play Zelda games. He didn't even play OoT when it came out for crying out loud! It seems like fighters and content in general mostly come from whatever games are on his mind at the time (with a couple of exceptions; I doubt Sakurai cares THAT MUCH about Pokemon for example). So, in order for y'all to get Isaac in, you need to figure out how to get Sakurai to play GS or if he played GS and didn't like it convince him to give it another try. How? Be loud, but not annoying. Fanart, memes, music, story discussion. All of this noise might somehow make it up to the heads of Nintendo who go "oh hey this Golden Sun game seems to have the fans talking. Sakurai, could you take a look?" And if he likes the game you guys could be set for life!

 

[TempestSurge]

The thing that gets me about the relevancy argument and that if we ever want Isaac in Smash then we need to start pushing for a new game first is that: even when Isaac was relevant, Sakurai still chose to make him an assist!

In the case of Dark Dawn, it was released in 2010. 4 was released in 2014. This would mean the project plan could have started back in say 2012, and thus make Dark Dawn only two years old. Maybe it was the blunder of it being on the DS instead of the 3ds. The way 4 was based on promotion, linking you to the respective Wii U or 3ds game.

Of course now in 2018, Isaac comes off more old and seeming like fans are clinging to nostalgia of the gba days because Sakurai never chose to make him a fighter back in the other Smash cycles.

It makes me think it's not the sales, it's not the number of games, it's not the relevancy, it's just the fact that Sakurai has no interest in making Isaac a fighter himself. That he doesn't fit into his particular tastes, that he sees him as unrealizable. So there's another barrier Isaac has to surpass, and that's Sakurai himself. Once again Villager had a stage in Brawl but Sakurai states he couldn't think of a moveset and then in 4 proceeds to say how characters like Mega Man and Villager wouldn't normally be the type of characters in Smash at all.

Maybe it is as simple as Sakurai cannot think of a moveset but the fans want him so let's at least bring back the assist (what he originally had Isaac debut as even with the duology selling in the millions), he even added a few extra animations to his assist attacking pattern. This just makes it really hard to believe that Isaac is dlc in any fashion unless he really sees all the dismay at Isaac's assist reveal and starts to crack down on figuring out this moveset. Otherwise, utility psynergy, meet support role.

I really hope in Sakurai's next interview about the final direct he touches on Isaac. We have to know what he thinks about him and Golden Sun, if at one point he ever tried to make Isaac playable, otherwise it feels like we're trapped in this limbo and alternatively Isaac will be trapped as an assist, even Lyn for all of Sakurai's FE bias. Unless Isaac does kick off and become loud enough to not be ignored, I can just as easily see the next Smash Sakurai adding another Xenoblade or FE newcomer over him as Dark Dawn's 2010 release date gets more dwarfed as the years go on. I guess the one hopeful thing to hold onto is if that trademark renewal is really for a Golden Sun game and the series is back, the shining beacon to no playable Isaac.

tldr: I'm nervous that it's Sakurai but we may not become loud enough to change his mind.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There's a ton of depth to that question. And in order to get to the bottom of it, I have to give you a summation of how Golden Sun almost certainly fits into the sphere of game production. I have a lot of experience with game sales and analysis thereof. So follow me. This will be a long comment.

The first golden sun game sold 1.7 million copies. That would suggest a high profit margin. But the problem we have to consider there is A, the games development cycle, which given it started as a 64 game, is fair to assume was troubled getting off the ground. And the standard MSRP of a GBA game at launch (30 dollars, if I recall) [However, the studio is not making 30 per game, as the publisher takes a cut, as well as the stores where games are sold, it would be more like 15] was a formula for commercial disappointment. While far from an outright flop. It's suffice to say that commercial turn around was not as strong as Nintendo corporate was hoping for with a shiny new IP, that was was initially pitched as Nintendo's reply for Final fantasy and other PlayStation rpgs. And given it's visual style, which was boundary pushing given what was capable on GBA. This game was probably a pretty penny when compared to the average production of a GBA game. They made money, but not as much as they wanted.

That's where things start to go downhill. Usually when you have a lukewarm commercial victory, the publisher will allow you to do a sequel, under the pretense that said sequel MUST sell even better to compensate for under performance of the first title. If Sales increase, that is indicative of a brand with massive staying power, as that would mean word of mouth carried the title, and hype continued to grow title over title. The Lost age sold 1.2 million. This was likely a big disappointment for Nintendo. The lost age's production was likely no where near as expensive as the first game, due to asset re-use and not have to program an engine from scratch. But this decreased cost did not make the difference necessary for Nintendo to green light further sequels.

Dark Dawn is an industry example of what is known as developer bet, and or passion project. These are often spurred by a combination of fan demand, developer passion, and sometimes proper timing. These are typically games that corporate really didn't want to do, but devs on high in the studio had to push really, really hard for it. Staking both credibility and reputation on the line in order to achieve. Nintendo would reluctantly give the go ahead. However, the bar for entry of a DS game production is leaps and bounds higher than that of a GBA game. So the already dwindling staff of the Original two titles was essentially boned from the start. Dark Dawn sold 850K copies. From there, nintendo corporate puts the IP on ice indefinitely. The sales have trended downward from the first title onward, and Dark Dawn actually lost the studio money. With this loss, it's suffice to say people at Camelot lost a lot of creative freedom as punishment for their gamble.

This isn't all supposition. This is plugging Golden Sun into the time tested and time approved formula by which the whole of the game industry operates. The almighty dollar is the dictate by which everything is ran. Golden Sun would have likely fared better as a Nintendo Gamecube game. As the high production values, in combination with excellent design would have led to a more sustainable formula. As the higher values would be offset by the higher standard cost of a video game. 1.7 million copies sold at 50 dollars a game, is a massively higher turn around than that of 1.7 million at 30 dollars a game. Even in scenarios where the GBA game costs 2 million to make, and the Gamecube game is more like 8 million. (these are estimates, cost on both sides can go far higher or lower depending on marketing push)

The ideal for Nintendo right now is to go cover every IP in the catalog. The Switch is a rare kind of platform. It has caused a significant boon in the raw sales data of nearly every franchise that nintendo owns to touch it. While on ice IP's haven't been tested yet. It's suffice to say this would make for a massive boon as well. Nintendo would be most interested in a remake of Golden Sun 1. As it is both the most commercially, and critically successful title in the series. We have seen a very significant increase in sales RPG's on switch specifically. This is a rare opportunity for Nintendo to actually consider the production of a new title. As the timing is ripe. However. This where a problem is presented. The vast majoirty of the Golden Sun team no longer operates at Camelot. And Nintendo is not going to make the mistake of placing a shattered team on a new production once more. This time, and even MORE shattered team. And given the historically shakey commercial history of the series, Nintendo's best interest would be to oversea the external production of a new title under a new development studio.

The studio in question will need large experience with RPG's. So Nintendo's first order of business would be finding a developer who can work cheap enough, where if the new title fails, there is no huge loss incurred. This is where things get very murky. I say it's suffice to assume that some things have been considered internally. Merely on account of the golden sun series new trademark. However, finding the proper team that has both the talent, and works cheap enough, in order to avoid risk, is key. If a developer is found that would be willing in the next year or two, expect a remake of Golden Sun 1.

Golden Sun 1 is statistically the most likely to sell. Most likely to review well, and in this day and age, first parties are starting to care more about quality than raw game sales. but nintendo is still fickle, don't expect a new custom robo or F-zero verry soon. An extremely good game is lfar more likely to move consoles to more niche audiences. This for instance, is how Xenoblade can remain a strong force despite questionable sales. Xenoblade fans will buy consoles to buy new xenoblade games. And even if those games sell poorly, the first party in question will make the money back in sales of games like Mario Odessey, and other titles. As a Xenoblade fan who wasn't interested in the console for Mario Odessey, is still likely to go back and buy it now that they own the console. and by extension, the only place to play it.

It's an "every console matters" approach that we are seeing adopted more and more, especially by Sony, who fund's small games just because their bigger games will pay for them, and the overall critical and variety based aspect of the library is increased. If Nintendo wishes to move this policy to more IP's, Golden Sun stands out as a prime candidate. I wouldn't hold out hope to fiercely. But I would argue that Golden Sun is a series that's true commerical potential has never been seen. The closest would be the first title on GBA, which was drastically bottlenecked on account of being an unproven IP at the time, and the standards MSRP of a GBA game holding the end numbers back severely

Wow, this is a seriously good post. It is interesting to see Golden Sun analyzed to this degree in terms of financial business. This fully explains why Camelot is in such a limbo with just making Mario sports games now.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing that gets me about the relevancy argument and that if we ever want Isaac in Smash then we need to start pushing for a new game first is that: even when Isaac was relevant, Sakurai still chose to make him an assist!

In the case of Dark Dawn, it was released in 2010. 4 was released in 2014. This would mean the project plan could have started back in say 2012, and thus make Dark Dawn only two years old. Maybe it was the blunder of it being on the DS instead of the 3ds. The way 4 was based on promotion, linking you to the respective Wii U or 3ds game.

Of course now in 2018, Isaac comes off more old and seeming like fans are clinging to nostalgia of the gba days because Sakurai never chose to make him a fighter back in the other Smash cycles.

It makes me think it's not the sales, it's not the number of games, it's not the relevancy, it's just the fact that Sakurai has no interest in making Isaac a fighter himself. That he doesn't fit into his particular tastes, that he sees him as unrealizable. So there's another barrier Isaac has to surpass, and that's Sakurai himself. Once again Villager had a stage in Brawl but Sakurai states he couldn't think of a moveset and then in 4 proceeds to say how characters like Mega Man and Villager wouldn't normally be the type of characters in Smash at all.

Maybe it is as simple as Sakurai cannot think of a moveset but the fans want him so let's at least bring back the assist (what he originally had Isaac debut as even with the duology selling in the millions), he even added a few extra animations to his assist attacking pattern. This just makes it really hard to believe that Isaac is dlc in any fashion unless he really sees all the dismay at Isaac's assist reveal and starts to crack down on figuring out this moveset. Otherwise, utility psynergy, meet support role.

I really hope in Sakurai's next interview about the final direct he touches on Isaac. We have to know what he thinks about him and Golden Sun, if at one point he ever tried to make Isaac playable, otherwise it feels like we're trapped in this limbo and alternatively Isaac will be trapped as an assist, even Lyn for all of Sakurai's FE bias. Unless Isaac does kick off and become loud enough to not be ignored, I can just as easily see the next Smash Sakurai adding another Xeno lade or FE newcomer over him as Dark Dawn's 2010 release date gets more dwarfed as the years go on.

tldr: I'm nervous that it's Sakurai but we may not become loud enough to change his mind.

Just to comment on the moveset thing, Piranha Plant exists. That argument is no longer a thing. And from what I've seen Isaac has plenty of moves and magic to make into a moveset with his earth stuff

 

[Metocles]

The main question is this: has Sakurai played Golden Sun and did he like it?

I have no shame in admitting that, as a Xenoblade fan, I have definitely been catered to because Sakurai enjoyed Xenoblade 1 and LOVED Xenoblade 2. I have no reason to believe that Shulk would've EVER gotten in if Sakurai hadn't played XC1 and, even though the game was just a BIT too late, the amount of content from XC2 in the very short timespan between XC2 and Ultimate even though the project plan was already finalized shows that he really really really loves this game. And if there's ever a second wave of DLC or a Smash 6, Rex is at the top of the newcomer list 100%.

However, as a Zelda fan, I can also say that Zelda in terms of characters has been shunted pretty hard- 3 Links, Zelda, Sheik, and a sort-of-semiclone Ganondorf is all we have. And the reason for that? Sakurai doesn't play Zelda games. He didn't even play OoT when it came out for crying out loud! It seems like fighters and content in general mostly come from whatever games are on his mind at the time (with a couple of exceptions; I doubt Sakurai cares THAT MUCH about Pokemon for example). So, in order for y'all to get Isaac in, you need to figure out how to get Sakurai to play GS or if he played GS and didn't like it convince him to give it another try. How? Be loud, but not annoying. Fanart, memes, music, story discussion. All of this noise might somehow make it up to the heads of Nintendo who go "oh hey this Golden Sun game seems to have the fans talking. Sakurai, could you take a look?" And if he likes the game you guys could be set for life!

Yeah, we're basically not sure? He's a big gaming historian, so I think he obviously knows about the game and all of these games in general. RPGs are his favorite genre too so you'd think he would have by some point.

Golden Sun is one of the franchises he's just never talked about at all though and we've never seen a quote from him about it for sure. Whereas you'll see quotes about nearly everything else out there, including, Xenoblade Chronicles like you said. Like I've been saying, between Brawl and this game, the way Isaac functions is very telling to me. There's basically nothing in his AT that represents the games correctly other than a big psynergy hand which, honestly, is very un-Sakurai-like. Imagine for instance, I made an AT for Bayonetta and all I had her do was fire her guns. You'd probably seriously question if I played her games.

If you had to force an answer out of me here, I'd probably say one of the following:
1. He didn't play them at all
2. He did play them, but only once long ago and forgets most of the details.
3. He only played until very early in and stopped

I only say those because that's what it feels like. And you're on to something with the Zelda. The only difference there is, and I think you'll agree with me, you can't make the Smash games without Zelda characters in it. That would be sacrilege.

As an opposing force to this, he loves Geno and has commented on him about wanting to add him in as well. But hasn't so far, which is strange. We'll see come DLC because we all thought he as a lock for sure knowing how Sakurai chooses (or has Nintendo choose for him).

All of this could be as simple as nobody has ever asked him anything at all about Golden Sun. He could have books to write about it for all we know.

 

[TempestSurge]

Just to comment on the moveset thing, Piranha Plant exists. That argument is no longer a thing. And from what I've seen Isaac has plenty of moves and magic to make into a moveset with his earth stuff

True there is that, similar to Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt, Sakurai imagined creative movesets for them. Of course then it just goes back to whether he has interest in the character Isaac himself, to want to make him playable. We've all been envisioning Isaac with Djinns/summons/earth magic/all these other various elementals, but Sakurai brings him back doing the same psynergy hands as he did in Brawl. If I never played Golden Sun myself, I'd think that's all Isaac is known for. I just want to know if the concept of something like earth magic is realizable to Sakurai to bother.

 

[Frosty Pops]

I can get over Isaac not making it in Smash, and i am still going to get the game. But...if absolutely none of the DLC characters is someone that gets me even a little hype I am seriously going to doubt Smash teams ability to deliver content to the fans. I have got maybe 30 characters I would like to see even after the masaacre of assists in the game thus far...about half of which I would have liked to play.
And of all of the characters I would like to see only about 10 are 3rd party. I also thought of some of the most popular characters remaining that would be plausible choices for the game.
Examples for 3rd party: Shantae, Banjo, Geno, Spyro, Crash.
Examples 1st party: Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, any Fire Emblem character that doesn't use a sword, Birdo.
I mean seriously my choices are everywhere...I even have a list of characters that I don't think could ever happen that would be awesome inclusions. And if not even a single one of these makes it in the game then I will literally be at a loss for words.
I know we got alot of good (and some meh) characters. Love Ridley as a character didn't have a preference for him being in Smash though. K. Rool is a great addition and I am happy for his fans but he is not one of my top choices personally. The Belmonts are awesome as they are a new IP and very unique in their fighting style but I don't have a connection with them as I played the newer games first. Inkling is a new IP and an obvious choice but they are only ok.
Dark Samus is the only thing that got my hyped thus far and only a bit cause she is an echo, but i do appreciate the energy they took to make her movements and animations stand out from Samus.
Lets see if they really know what fans want. I have a list that includes stuff from just about any popular (doable) 3rd party franchise, and good characters left in both represented and unrepresented 1st party IP. They can't possibly miss them all.

 

[link2702]

Y’all probably have brought it up yourselves, but just in case...

Y’all shouldn’t completely lose hope yet.

While the AT reveal definitely stung, the piranha Plant showed us all that sakurai is unpredictable. Who’s to say he might break his own rules and make an assist both playable and a at in the same game? After all an at did become playable, just not in the same game unfortunately.

Or maybe sakurai likes Isaac’s adult version more and wants to make him playable? Or Isaac’s son?

While I’m sure that might sting a little for some as they find Isaac’s younger form more iconic, the point is, y’all still have a shot at a gs rep. Don’t completely give up hope. There are five dlc spots, that’s five more chances.

 

[Tiymako]

I got bombarded with harassment and people calling me "entitled" for wanting one character. ONE. I did what I would normally never do. I'm tired of this passive shtick. I'm tired of playing the nice guy who STILL get's crapped on by the whole universe because said universe hates him. The Isaac community endures this too much. So I did what I don't do. I bit back, I bit back really hard. Folk's telling me the character is dead. I did a burn out on half the cash in one reply. Folk's telling me he's to niche, so I respond by striking right in the fire and asking if they knew what in the hell a xenoblade was before smash 4. Folk's telling me he's an anime swordsman, I respond by questioning if they did five minutes of research. Folk's telling me to "sit down boy" cause I haven't waited 20 years so apparently my opinion didn't count, responded in kind by asking if that Magolor pick of his felt good to wear.

I know I shouldn't have done that. But good god did it feel cathartic. I felt like I blew through years of rage in the time span of about an hour. I have never seen an Isaac fan lash out, until I did. Which is hilarious because I saw people responding as though I HAD lashed out. Well they poked the bear, so I responded with as much spite and as many barbs as they painted me to have.

I really want to just lash out sometimes too, we have endured a lot as a fanbase. It's hard to stay strong for so long when your limited to the decay of your own fuse. I have been wanting a Golden Sun representative for almost 17 years, ever since I played Golden Sun growing up. I understand what it is like to keep being passive and not get anywhere by just taking the hits. I know I can be a bit of a pushover sometimes, but I have been through emotions like these time and time again.

We all can't be the pillar of strength and sometimes we let it get to us. It's clear that people can be ignorant and hypocritical. Sometimes we lash out, it happens to the best of us.

I don't blame you for what you did, we don't always have to take **** from others and let them get away with it. Sometimes it is better to bite back, however.. I am not that type of person to let what people say get to me and there were many many times I wanted to give up and lash out at some trolls. Still that is what they want, they want to see if they can break up the community as strong as us and stir the pot to cause trouble. Don't give into it, don't let them get inside your heads and certianly bite back when it is called for. As long as you play the game they are playing, but better than it's what they deserve.

Don't give up and certianly don't let them win.

 

[Metocles]

I can get over Isaac not making it in Smash, and i am still going to get the game. But...if absolutely none of the DLC characters is someone that gets me even a little hype I am seriously going to doubt Smash teams ability to deliver content to the fans. I have got maybe 30 characters I would like to see even after the masaacre of assists in the game thus far...about half of which I would have liked to play.
And of all of the characters I would like to see only about 10 are 3rd party. I also thought of some of the most popular characters remaining that would be plausible choices for the game.
Examples for 3rd party: Shantae, Banjo, Geno, Spyro, Crash.
Examples 1st party: Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, any Fire Emblem character that doesn't use a sword, Birdo.
I mean seriously my choices are everywhere...I even have a list of characters that I don't think could ever happen that would be awesome inclusions. And if not even a single one of these makes it in the game then I will literally be at a loss for words.
I know we got alot of good (and some meh) characters. Love Ridley as a character didn't have a preference for him being in Smash though. K. Rool is a great addition and I am happy for his fans but he is not one of my top choices personally. The Belmonts are awesome as they are a new IP and very unique in their fighting style but I don't have a connection with them as I played the newer games first. Inkling is a new IP and an obvious choice but they are only ok.
Dark Samus is the only thing that got my hyped thus far and only a bit cause she is an echo, but i do appreciate the energy they took to make her movements and animations stand out from Samus.
Lets see if they really know what fans want. I have a list that includes stuff from just about any popular (doable) 3rd party franchise, and good characters left in both represented and unrepresented 1st party IP. They can't possibly miss them all.

I'll tell you one thing, with Vergeben and Hitagi talking about Steve from Minecraft seeing how they got Kencineroar right, I am definitely not buying that fighter pack. Even the mere chance of Steve being one of those fighters is really detracting me from that offer. I'm sorry, I just don't think I'd be able to cope with him in especially if nothing Golden Sun is ever playable in those DLCs. I'll just buy them individually even if it means they're more expensive that way.

Other than that... yeah let's hope they make their DLC selections wisely. Honestly, the DLC could fix the entire game with its amendments to the roster if they're smart enough about it. Or it could be even more detrimental if they screw up somewhere because ultimately years after everything in this game is released whatever DLC they pick will also be considered just as much a part of the game as the base is now. As of now, these newcomers just aren't a grand slam to me all things considered.

 

[Pwnapplez]

Felix is a spirit, and is telling you about hope!

 

[Huanchi]

View attachment 175298

Felix is a spirit, and is telling you about hope!

Sakurai pls stop playing with my heart

 

[KidCham]

Maybe we'll have some mii costumes, some new ones have been revealed during the nintendo live show, like Nia from Xenoblade and Saki

 

[Q-Long]

I think Nintendo must have saw all of the disappointment that the leak was not true.

I think the roster would have been different if the leak was made back in say early 2015 or 2014.

That being said now we have to decide as a fanbase between Isaac, Felix, Matthew, or to simply vote for an umbrella term "Golden Sun protagonist"

Because AT promotion seems very difficult. But Isaac is the one most people are emotionally invested in. Also we now have to decide if we want to work with other fanbases in the AT, Sticker, or Costume rut. It helps break any ideas that those disconfirm you and helps us be nicer to one another. Corny I know, but the leak tore the community apart suffice to say. But at the same time brought us together.

Idk

 

[Huanchi]

Saki got a costume ? wow..just give me Isaac costume at least pls so i can pretend its him

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Looks like it got taken down.

Also, where'd you hear about the Saki costume? I thought he wasn't anywhere right now.

 

[TempestSurge]

I really want to just lash out sometimes too, we have endured a lot as a fanbase. It's hard to stay strong for so long when your limited to the decay of your own fuse. I have been wanting a Golden Sun representative for almost 17 years, ever since I played Golden Sun growing up. I understand what it is like to keep being passive and not get anywhere by just taking the hits. I know I can be a bit of a pushover sometimes, but I have been through emotions like these time and time again.

We all can't be the pillar of strength and sometimes we let it get to us. It's clear that people can be ignorant and hypocritical. Sometimes we lash out, it happens to the best of us.

I don't blame you for what you did, we don't always have to take **** from others and let them get away with it. Sometimes it is better to bite back, however.. I am not that type of person to let what people say get to me and there were many many times I wanted to give up and lash out at some trolls. Still that is what they want, they want to see if they can break up the community as strong as us and stir the pot to cause trouble. Don't give into it, don't let them get inside your heads and certianly bite back when it is called for. As long as you play the game they are playing, but better than it's what they deserve.

Don't give up and certianly don't let them win.

My gloves have long since been off when it came to Isaac, even back in the days of his missing assist in 4. I've always called out people who were misinformed about Golden Sun and their fans or wanted to make false claims like Golden Sun not selling well. Of course, my screen name is pretty different across all my social media accounts and I've pretty much been calling out fandom jank for years across the various ones I've been in so I'm used to being insulted or generalized for liking a certain thing, it's almost tame in comparison, but still annoying to see.

Edit: There's really more R.I.P. Isaac and fans expressing their condolences than anything, not really much 'Haha, trolled!' compared to the former.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

View attachment 175298

Felix is a spirit, and is telling you about hope!

It feels like the universe is desperate to get my hopes up so it can shatter them again.

I doubt these words had any thought put into them, they were most likely just slapped onto characters randomly.

Do we know if these words are even set? Maybe it's random each time you get them.

 

[TempestSurge]

I'll tell you one thing, with Vergeben and Hitagi talking about Steve from Minecraft seeing how they got Kencineroar right, I am definitely not buying that fighter pack. Even the mere chance of Steve being one of those fighters is really detracting me from that offer. I'm sorry, I just don't think I'd be able to cope with him in especially if nothing Golden Sun is ever playable in those DLCs. I'll just buy them individually even if it means they're more expensive that way.

Other than that... yeah let's hope they make their DLC selections wisely. Honestly, the DLC could fix the entire game with its amendments to the roster if they're smart enough about it. Or it could be even more detrimental if they screw up somewhere because ultimately years after everything in this game is released whatever DLC they pick will also be considered just as much a part of the game as the base is now. As of now, these newcomers just aren't a grand slam to me all things considered.

The thing about DLC is when you take into the context of the assist massacre. I see some fans viewing it as, "Alright so our big competition Isaac, Shadow, Skull Kid, Springman etc. is down but our character is just a spirit/nowhere to be seen so we got a shot for DLC!"

Or what if instead you're nothing. Which judging by the rumors of DLC is seeming like it's going in that direction, it's hard getting behind other first parties when other popular ones got deconfirmed by assists, it's like a consolation prize with the DLC being set in stone. I feel like maybe Banjo and Geno have a shot, but of course Banjo has to deal with these rumors about Steve now from credible sources. And my doubts about Geno have more to do with DLC maybe being advertisement after all, like you can make money off the ballot, yet some popular picks got deconfirmed as assists throughout this entire smash cycle so it's up in the air to what who those 5 characters could be.

 

[Gurein]

Has the change.org petition been posted atound here? I know these never amount to anything, but if we manage a lot of votes in we might gain somd points in our favor.

 

[Huanchi]

Has the change.org petition been posted atound here? I know these never amount to anything, but if we manage a lot of votes in we might gain somd points in our favor.

yes, 2 of them were posted here

 

[Q-Long]

So at the end of the story trailer spirits (like Pigma from star fox) were absorbed. Do you think that has any story significance?

I'm guessing its the evil orb thing absorbinged pig spirits for ganondorf so his pig form would be a boss.

and then other spirits will be absorbed depending on the character and villain. This would in turn give them new forms

Ganondorf: Pigs
Metalface: Robots
Big Ridley: Aliens
??? King K Rool: Reptiles (???)
Mega Incinroar: Pokemon
Giga Bowser: Reptiles
Dracula: Evil things
Dark Emperor: Mii themed things
Virus: Virus/Poison (Virus was a planned boss in Smash 4, hope its in. I think the Doc Mario viruses are cute)
Galleom: Armored characters
King Dedede: ???
Rathalos: Fire spirits?
Petey Piranha: Plants
Duon: Twin themed characters (like the ones from Pokemon)
Yellow Devil: Rock themed spirits (Called Rock Spirit in JP)

Pigs could be Porky. King Dedede might not be a bad guy. Could be either way.

The small piranha must not be in base. But Petey is in as a boss. I just realized this is a weird situation where if this plant is the same exact Petey in Brawl, its sort of a "Smash character" like ROB.

I'm guessing Incinroar was included for more villains, not just for Pokemon reasons, though I understand in wrestling, he could turn and be good.

Too bad Isaac isn't in. Doom Dragon made of Ridley, Bowser, and K Rool would've been a spectacle.

 

[Quetzal77]

Matthew and Felix being Spirits is actually a good thing I think. It's more GS content, and Spirits don't deconfirm characters. On the off chance that GS4 is happening behind the scenes then maybe, maybe, Matthew has a shot at DLC. Either way it's nice to get recognition for the series. Have any other characters been seen?

 

[Deleted member]

So Matthew and Felix too huh? Oye.

Oh well glad sone Golden Sun content got in some way.

 

[Ura]

There's a ton of depth to that question. And in order to get to the bottom of it, I have to give you a summation of how Golden Sun almost certainly fits into the sphere of game production. I have a lot of experience with game sales and analysis thereof. So follow me. This will be a long comment.

The first golden sun game sold 1.7 million copies. That would suggest a high profit margin. But the problem we have to consider there is A, the games development cycle, which given it started as a 64 game, is fair to assume was troubled getting off the ground. And the standard MSRP of a GBA game at launch (30 dollars, if I recall) [However, the studio is not making 30 per game, as the publisher takes a cut, as well as the stores where games are sold, it would be more like 15] was a formula for commercial disappointment. While far from an outright flop. It's suffice to say that commercial turn around was not as strong as Nintendo corporate was hoping for with a shiny new IP, that was was initially pitched as Nintendo's reply for Final fantasy and other PlayStation rpgs. And given it's visual style, which was boundary pushing given what was capable on GBA. This game was probably a pretty penny when compared to the average production of a GBA game. They made money, but not as much as they wanted.

That's where things start to go downhill. Usually when you have a lukewarm commercial victory, the publisher will allow you to do a sequel, under the pretense that said sequel MUST sell even better to compensate for under performance of the first title. If Sales increase, that is indicative of a brand with massive staying power, as that would mean word of mouth carried the title, and hype continued to grow title over title. The Lost age sold 1.2 million. This was likely a big disappointment for Nintendo. The lost age's production was likely no where near as expensive as the first game, due to asset re-use and not have to program an engine from scratch. But this decreased cost did not make the difference necessary for Nintendo to green light further sequels.

Dark Dawn is an industry example of what is known as developer bet, and or passion project. These are often spurred by a combination of fan demand, developer passion, and sometimes proper timing. These are typically games that corporate really didn't want to do, but devs on high in the studio had to push really, really hard for it. Staking both credibility and reputation on the line in order to achieve. Nintendo would reluctantly give the go ahead. However, the bar for entry of a DS game production is leaps and bounds higher than that of a GBA game. So the already dwindling staff of the Original two titles was essentially boned from the start. Dark Dawn sold 850K copies. From there, nintendo corporate puts the IP on ice indefinitely. The sales have trended downward from the first title onward, and Dark Dawn actually lost the studio money. With this loss, it's suffice to say people at Camelot lost a lot of creative freedom as punishment for their gamble.

This isn't all supposition. This is plugging Golden Sun into the time tested and time approved formula by which the whole of the game industry operates. The almighty dollar is the dictate by which everything is ran. Golden Sun would have likely fared better as a Nintendo Gamecube game. As the high production values, in combination with excellent design would have led to a more sustainable formula. As the higher values would be offset by the higher standard cost of a video game. 1.7 million copies sold at 50 dollars a game, is a massively higher turn around than that of 1.7 million at 30 dollars a game. Even in scenarios where the GBA game costs 2 million to make, and the Gamecube game is more like 8 million. (these are estimates, cost on both sides can go far higher or lower depending on marketing push)

The ideal for Nintendo right now is to go cover every IP in the catalog. The Switch is a rare kind of platform. It has caused a significant boon in the raw sales data of nearly every franchise that nintendo owns to touch it. While on ice IP's haven't been tested yet. It's suffice to say this would make for a massive boon as well. Nintendo would be most interested in a remake of Golden Sun 1. As it is both the most commercially, and critically successful title in the series. We have seen a very significant increase in sales RPG's on switch specifically. This is a rare opportunity for Nintendo to actually consider the production of a new title. As the timing is ripe. However. This where a problem is presented. The vast majoirty of the Golden Sun team no longer operates at Camelot. And Nintendo is not going to make the mistake of placing a shattered team on a new production once more. This time, and even MORE shattered team. And given the historically shakey commercial history of the series, Nintendo's best interest would be to oversea the external production of a new title under a new development studio.

The studio in question will need large experience with RPG's. So Nintendo's first order of business would be finding a developer who can work cheap enough, where if the new title fails, there is no huge loss incurred. This is where things get very murky. I say it's suffice to assume that some things have been considered internally. Merely on account of the golden sun series new trademark. However, finding the proper team that has both the talent, and works cheap enough, in order to avoid risk, is key. If a developer is found that would be willing in the next year or two, expect a remake of Golden Sun 1.

Golden Sun 1 is statistically the most likely to sell. Most likely to review well, and in this day and age, first parties are starting to care more about quality than raw game sales. but nintendo is still fickle, don't expect a new custom robo or F-zero verry soon. An extremely good game is lfar more likely to move consoles to more niche audiences. This for instance, is how Xenoblade can remain a strong force despite questionable sales. Xenoblade fans will buy consoles to buy new xenoblade games. And even if those games sell poorly, the first party in question will make the money back in sales of games like Mario Odessey, and other titles. As a Xenoblade fan who wasn't interested in the console for Mario Odessey, is still likely to go back and buy it now that they own the console. and by extension, the only place to play it.

It's an "every console matters" approach that we are seeing adopted more and more, especially by Sony, who fund's small games just because their bigger games will pay for them, and the overall critical and variety based aspect of the library is increased. If Nintendo wishes to move this policy to more IP's, Golden Sun stands out as a prime candidate. I wouldn't hold out hope to fiercely. But I would argue that Golden Sun is a series that's true commerical potential has never been seen. The closest would be the first title on GBA, which was drastically bottlenecked on account of being an unproven IP at the time, and the standards MSRP of a GBA game holding the end numbers back severely

I think you brought up a lot of good points and what have you but this whole idea of diminishing sales being a reason for Golden Sun's absence is kinda laughable when you consider all of Nintendo's other franchises that dwindle with every other installment. Fire Emblem, for instance continued to sell less and less from FE7 going onwards through FE12. Why would the series have it's projects greenlighted when they performed even more mediocre than Golden Sun? And FE is just one of the many. It's amazing to think that Nintendo is still trying to push the Star Fox brand after Command was a failure and then a decade later, Zero. And yet the rumor mill is lending credence to the idea that there's another Star Fox game albeit a racing one coming out. Where do we draw the line here exactly?

And I don't think you're approaching all angles when it comes to Dark Dawn's commercial performance. This was coming at a time late in the DS era where Nintendo already announced the 3DS and all attention was on that platform. We see that a lot with games coming out late in a system's life cycle where they just do abysmal numbers like Metroid Returns on the 3DS. Piracy for DS games was at an all time high as well which likely lead to Dark Dawn having a sharp decrease in it's sales. Then you factor that their marketing for the game was subpar at best (as is the tale with just about all of their franchises that they don't care about) and it only reinforces the numbers the game did. And well, Dark Dawn wasn't the strongest entry to put it nicely which lead to the game getting flak critically.

I do agree that a remake is the way to go. Out of all the dormant Nintendo franchises, i'd argue Golden Sun and Advance Wars are the ones with the best chances of returning. Of course that depends on certain things happening. The Switch is an entirely new ball game compared to the Wii U/3DS generation where Nintendo only focused on their successful franchises or taking chances on new ones they thought would succeed.

 

[TappyBat]

that's a good point. sakurai probably doesn't like golden sun at all...

 

[Ninetales Commander]

That's exactly what i said. He listened to the Fans partially. He gave us K Rool, Ridley and the Belmonts, but the next Big Fan Bases Waluigi, Us Isaac Fans or spring man supporters, got f***ed over.

I know that every Game had one of those WTF Chars, a pokemon rep and an NES Rep, but why should this continue? Why wasn't Sakurai able to just make the Chars that were requested? Why did he have to satisfy his weird Taste again, while screwing other Fan Bases over?
It could be that the Roster of this Game is better than 4s, it is not that bad ibjectively you're right, but i honestly i still didn't forgive him 4s base roster. I still didn't forgive him brawls gameplay. This Game should have been flawless for me to warm up with him. I personally don't have anything against those Chars per se, my problem is that those chars take places from fighter which would deserve the spot much more.

And yeah inceniroar isn't that bad, i will use him a few times for sure, Ken was on my wishlist before. so yeah i can even accept inceniroar.
But tell me, HOW the f*** did a plant that cones out of tubes and spits fireballs in it's origin game deserve a spot? That's exactly that stuff that caused me to hate sakurai back in the day.

I understand your pain, I really do, I practically cried when Isaac was shown as an assist but lashing out at Sakurai is not gonna get you anywhere. The thing is; Sakurai is the director but Nintendo is the 1 calling the shots. Sakurai has even stated himself that while he is allowed input on the game, Nintendo are the bosses. In fact, Sakurai originally didn't want to put Corrin in the game but in the end he had no choice because Nintendo demanded it happen as they wanted to advertise Fire Emblem Fates as hard as they could.
From what you've been typing, it sounds to me like Smash Bros just isn't for you, a lot of the community actually loves the WTF Character as it brings a sense of charm and surprise to every Smash Bros Game. Hell, we don't even know if Sakurai even wanted Piranha Plant, he could have been, once again, at the mercy of Nintendo which I honestly wouldn't put it past them considering it is a Mario character.
Please don't think I'm trying make your pain look like nothing, I'm absolutely gutted that Isaac is an assist but I'm also not going to let that sadness cloud my judgement.

 

[Huanchi]

I understand your pain, I really do, I practically cried when Isaac was shown as an assist but lashing out at Sakurai is not gonna get you anywhere. The thing is; Sakurai is the director but Nintendo is the 1 calling the shots. Sakurai has even stated himself that while he is allowed input on the game, Nintendo are the bosses. In fact, Sakurai originally didn't want to put Corrin in the game but in the end he had no choice because Nintendo demanded it happen as they wanted to advertise Fire Emblem Fates as hard as they could.
From what you've been typing, it sounds to me like Smash Bros just isn't for you, a lot of the community actually loves the WTF Character as it brings a sense of charm and surprise to every Smash Bros Game. Hell, we don't even know if Sakurai even wanted Piranha Plant, he could have been, once again, at the mercy of Nintendo which I honestly wouldn't put it past them considering it is a Mario character.
Please don't think I'm trying make your pain look like nothing, I'm absolutely gutted that Isaac is an assist but I'm also not going to let that sadness cloud my judgement.

the thing is, when nintendo is in charge... and GS4 happens.. then we have the biggest chance to get a golden sun rep in ever... otherwise i start loosing hope and accept we are in AT zone forever :/

 

[Q-Long]

https://www.strawpoll.me/16770252

Poll, for who we should vote for.

Also with the DLC, it turns out the 108 stages theory turns out to be true. It happened to be true at the same time as the box and card theory.

 

[DCavalier]

After an hour of messing around in Blender, this is what came out of it.
Still WIP-ish, but I dunno what else can I do with the materials of the object.
Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome.