• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
As much as I'd want to see an upgrade from AT to playable, I actually think it's more likely to get a new golden sun game. Isaacs biggest obstacle was the fact that the series is dying, so our best bet is to bring it back to life first.
That is the issue though. A lesser known character is not playable because their series is dead, their series is dead because not enough people know it exists, not enough people know the series exists because their character is not playable in Smash. It is a loop. Smash also can bring a series back to life, but we do need to figure out if Sakurai could actually make Isaac work in the first place. I mean he couldn't make any of these characters work:
  • Isaac
  • Skull Kid
  • Zero
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dixie Kong
  • Spring Man
  • Takamaru
  • Magnus
  • Ashley
  • Waluigi
It really isn't that hard developing movesets when you look at their games.
 
Last edited:

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
Guys I think the Rathalos picture was in fact just a Monster Hunter reference that unfortunately turned out to be quite similar to Golden sun camera angle. Just like for the healing item we misinterpreted it.
While you might be right, what a stroke of opportunity it might be for us to use it as advertisement and propaganda to stir up some GS hype! Hehe, honestly though, whether or not it was intended for Golden Sun, we can use it as a fire to spur us forward with our petitioning. :)
 

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
Hey, just wanted to drop in and say that I'm so sorry

I'm not even a fan of Golden Sun that much, but seeing Issac get shunted again physically hurt to watch. I felt my chest sink since I know how bad you guys want him.

The Grinch crushed my dream of Banjo, and Minecraft completely kills any hope the duo have for DLC in my eyes. I hope somehow, someway, Issac manages to make it in. I'm pulling for you guys
Why have you counted out Banjo? He was one of the few characters that was safe during the whole direct. He can still get in as DLC
 
Last edited:

Flynn.Scifo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
687
Location
Paris . France
While you might be right, what a stroke of opportunity it might be for us to use it as advertisement and propaganda to stir up some GS hype! Hehe, honestly though, whether or not it was intended for Golden Sun, we can use it as a fire to spur us forward with our petitioning. :)
I'd rather it was not intended tbh, because if it was I would seriously question Sakurai. Why so cruel.
 

MonkeyDLenny

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
1,559
Why have you counted out Banjo? He was one of the few characters that were safe during the whole direct. He can still get in as DLC.
Minecraft is why.

People keep saying both can get in, but there is no way Nintendo will give two of their DLC slots to Microsoft. Minecraft is way more lucrative, recognizable, and it's the flagship of Nintendo and Microsoft's partnership; not to mention that both Sakurai LOVES Minecraft, and unlike in the west Minecraft doesn't have a negative stigma attatched to it. Why WOULDN'T they pick Minecraft over Banjo?

Banjo is a dead franchise that's only brought out for nostalgia points by Microsoft.... Grinch gave me a bit of hope but it wasn't to be.

Cemented by all of the leakers who were validated by the Grinch being false all saying Steve is in... I'm not holding my breath
 

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
Minecraft is why.

People keep saying both can get in, but there is no way Nintendo will give two of their DLC slots to Microsoft. Minecraft is way more lucrative, recognizable, and it's the flagship of Nintendo and Microsoft's partnership; not to mention that both Sakurai LOVES Minecraft, and unlike in the west Minecraft doesn't have a negative stigma attatched to it. Why WOULDN'T they pick Minecraft over Banjo?

Banjo is a dead franchise that's only brought out for nostalgia points by Microsoft.... Grinch gave me a bit of hope but it wasn't to be.

Cemented by all of the leakers who were validated by the Grinch being false all saying Steve is in... I'm not holding my breath
Maybe because the owner of Banjo, Mr. Phillips himself, says that he would be fine putting Banjo in the game even when he is not asked.
Remember, your franchise isn't dead until you stop supporting it.
Edit: Honestly, I just want old and forgotten franchises to catch a break this time around. Even if Isaac couldn't make it, I hope Banjo can carry the torch.
Edit 2: It really sickens me to see cherished franchises that are perfectly fine on their own being shunned by the very companies that develop them and are left to rot. What is worse is when the franchise is gutted to iphone trash. No gamer deserves to have that happen to their franchise.
 
Last edited:

?!?!?!

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
585
That is the issue though. A lesser known character is not playable because their series is dead, their series is dead because not enough people know it exists, not enough people know the series exists because their character is not playable in Smash. It is a loop. Smash also can bring a series back to life, but we do need to figure out if Sakurai could actually make Isaac work in the first place. I mean he couldn't make any of these characters work:
  • Isaac
  • Skull Kid
  • Zero
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dixie Kong
  • Spring Man
  • Takamaru
  • Magnus
  • Ashley
  • Waluigi
It really isn't that hard developing movesets when you look at their games.
This is true, and smash was 100% the best chance we had to revive the series, but it doesn't mean we can't still try to get a golden sun game on the switch. We just need a way to show Camelot all of our collective support of Isaac and the series (the ballot, the fact that our demand is what even brought Isaac back into smash, THIS thread and the ridiculous amount of support we've gained)
 
Last edited:

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
I'd rather it was not intended tbh, because if it was I would seriously question Sakurai. Why so cruel.
I’m of the belief that if it was intended for us, it would mean that something is in the works for Golden Sun for Smash. It just didn’t get shown yet because of DLC.
Picture this: if it’s intended for GS, and Isaac is in-game already. He could end up jumping the AT>Playable gap, or Matthew or Felix could. OR, if this trademark renewal means a new GS game, then it could even be an instance where we get a GS representative from an entirely new game, a la Roy or Corrin for Fire Emblem. :D
“This is tin foil hat theories with Frank.”
 

MonkeyDLenny

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
1,559
Maybe because the owner of Banjo, Mr. Phillips himself, says that he would be fine putting Banjo in the game even when he is not asked.
Remember, your franchise isn't dead until you stop supporting it.
Edit: Honestly, I just want old and forgotten franchises to catch a break this time around. Even if Isaac couldn't make it, I hope Banjo can carry the torch.
It's true that Philip would be totally cool with it, but it's up to Nintendo and Sakurai to request it... and I can't see them picking Banjo over Minecraft...
 

Jupiter Ivan

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
527
So I have a question. I invite all thoughts on this and appreciate speculation. (Also for any potential fan game brainstorming)

We petition for a new Golden Sun game, and we get it. What do you think we get/what do you want from it? A remake of the originals as a bundle type deal? A conclusion to GS3? Or a prequel-style Golden Sun, from when Alchemy was sealed the first time? :)
I’m in the remake camp. We need a restart if this franchise is going to succeed. Golden Sun 4 8 or more years after Dark Dawn would be a terrible idea. I would love to see prequels, but I feel like that can come later. For now Golden Sun just needs new blood.
 

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
I’m in the remake camp. We need a restart if this franchise is going to succeed. Golden Sun 4 8 or more years after Dark Dawn would be a terrible idea. I would love to see prequels, but I feel like that can come later. For now Golden Sun just needs new blood.
Well said. And I agree. Yeah Golden Sun has a bad habit of long distances between games... that needs to stop. We need a Fire Emblem-style “game every 2-3 years.” Now THAT would be amazing.
 

Oracle_Summon

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
5,059
It's true that Philip would be totally cool with it, but it's up to Nintendo and Sakurai to request it... and I can't see them picking Banjo over Minecraft...
I really want to argue you on this front...but.....

Why does this keep happening to franchises that people grew up with and cherish? Why do gamers have to sit and watch their franchises die?
Edit: Listen, just please, regardless of how bleak it seems, fight for Banjo for my sake as an Isaac fan. Please? At least one of us deserves to have our franchise get revived.
 
Last edited:

Flynn.Scifo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
687
Location
Paris . France
I’m of the belief that if it was intended for us, it would mean that something is in the works for Golden Sun for Smash. It just didn’t get shown yet because of DLC.
Picture this: if it’s intended for GS, and Isaac is in-game already. He could end up jumping the AT>Playable gap, or Matthew or Felix could. OR, if this trademark renewal means a new GS game, then it could even be an instance where we get a GS representative from an entirely new game, a la Roy or Corrin for Fire Emblem. :D
“This is tin foil hat theories with Frank.”
I don't know buddy, I wish I could be that optimistic but it sounds so unlikely.
 

Silo777

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
256
If we get a new Golden Sun now, it’s probably because of Isaac’s unbelievable support for smash. And if that’s the case, it has to be a remake because people are going to want to play Isaac’s game.
 

LuminoZero

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
182
Minecraft is why.

People keep saying both can get in, but there is no way Nintendo will give two of their DLC slots to Microsoft. Minecraft is way more lucrative, recognizable, and it's the flagship of Nintendo and Microsoft's partnership; not to mention that both Sakurai LOVES Minecraft, and unlike in the west Minecraft doesn't have a negative stigma attatched to it. Why WOULDN'T they pick Minecraft over Banjo?

Banjo is a dead franchise that's only brought out for nostalgia points by Microsoft.... Grinch gave me a bit of hope but it wasn't to be.

Cemented by all of the leakers who were validated by the Grinch being false all saying Steve is in... I'm not holding my breath
Because people wouldn't pay for Minecraft Steve.

They are going to release characters that there is demand for. That people (besides the hardcores who will buy everyone) will actually pay for. Steve doesn't meet that criteria.
 

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
I don't know buddy, I wish I could be that optimistic but it sounds so unlikely.
:D you called me buddy. That’s awesome :) I’m not saying it was intended for us. But if it was, I promise you it would mean something. I don’t think Sakurai is cruel. I don’t think he would troll a fan base maliciously. I have to think the best of him, at the very least.
 

Jupiter Ivan

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
527
Guys I think the Rathalos picture was in fact just a Monster Hunter reference that unfortunately turned out to be quite similar to Golden sun camera angle. Just like for the healing item we misinterpreted it.
If it was then it was a MH reference with enough coincidences to fill a landfill.

The angle. Golden Sun angle.
The location. Colosso.
The type of monster. A fire/poison Dragon.
Three characters in a row. Each heavily relating to a Golden Sun character in a profound way.
Silent Protagonist. Isaac.
Marth/Marusu/Mars. Garet.
Psychic. Ivan.
Not only did these characters relate to Isaac, Garet and Ivan, but the order they were aligned in was identical to the games too. It would have been different if it was Marth, Link then Shulk.

At this point I’m more leaning toward it being a GS reference but also eluding to the fact that Isaac is an AT. Since it was a screenshot also about other ATs. Just like with Smash 4 Ridley silhouette eluding to the fact he was a stage boss/hazard. I don’t mean this in harsh way, but it kinda proves he didn’t learn his lessen after that fiasco. To essentially do it again to us.

I’d love to think he was eluding to something further down the line, but I honestly can’t.
 

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
If it was then it was a MH reference with enough coincidences to fill a landfill.

The angle. Golden Sun angle.
The location. Colosso.
The type of monster. A fire/poison Dragon.
Three characters in a row. Each heavily relating to a Golden Sun character in a profound way.
Silent Protagonist. Isaac.
Marth/Marusu/Mars. Garet.
Psychic. Ivan.
Not only did these characters relate to Isaac, Garet and Ivan, but the order they were aligned in was identical to the games too. It would have been different if it was Marth, Link then Shulk.

At this point I’m more leaning toward it being a GS reference but also eluding to the fact that Isaac is an AT. Since it was a screenshot also about other ATs. Just like with Smash 4 Ridley silhouette eluding to the fact he was a stage boss/hazard. I don’t mean this in harsh way, but it kinda proves he didn’t learn his lessen after that fiasco. To essentially do it again to us.

I’d love to think he was eluding to something further down the line, but I honestly can’t.
So you don’t think it may be a DLC reference if it refers to GS either? :(
 

Jupiter Ivan

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
527
So you don’t think it may be a DLC reference if it refers to GS either? :(
While I’d absolutely love to be wrong, I think the likelyhood is next to none. I’m not saying that to be pessimistic, I’m normally one of the most positive people here, but I’m also a somewhat of a realist. That being said that’s why we need to stick together and be as loud and proud as we can. Not just for Isaac in Smash, but Golden Sun in general. If we ever want to see a future for it, that is.
 

Sentinel07

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
115
So you don’t think it may be a DLC reference if it refers to GS either? :(
That would be nice, and I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility. That being said, I'm going to keep my expectations as low as possible on the DLC for the time being.
 

Yellowlord

ゆゆネーター
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
3,635
Location
Who knows? :3
Well: Felix just showed up as a Spirit in Sakurai's demonstration of the mode. Damn... that caught me off guard.

He was shuffling up the spirits, by the way.
 
Last edited:

_Frank_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
15
While I’d absolutely love to be wrong, I think the likelyhood is next to none. I’m not saying that to be pessimistic, I’m normally one of the most positive people here, but I’m also a somewhat of a realist. That being said that’s why we need to stick together and be as loud and proud as we can. Not just for Isaac in Smash, but Golden Sun in general. If we ever want to see a future for it, that is.
That would be nice, and I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility. That being said, I'm going to keep my expectations as low as possible on the DLC for the time being.
I understand both ways of thinking. My hype for Smash bros lowered about 50% when Isaac was disconfirmed, so these theories kinda get me slightly hyped again. But yes, we definitely have to stick together and keep fighting :)
 

Flynn.Scifo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
687
Location
Paris . France
I agree with Ivan, I tend to be a realist too and the only way I can think of the Golden Sun to rise is if for some reason Sakurai decide that Assists can now be promoted to playable. That's not impossible, it's his game, he can make whatever he wants as long as Nintendo headquarters agree.

As for the series itself I also think remakes should come first to gather new fans. But from a business standpoint would it be profitable for Nintendo atm, I don't know.
 

Xenigma

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,033
Location
Charleston, SC
NNID
Xenigma
As for the series itself I also think remakes should come first to gather new fans. But from a business standpoint would it be profitable for Nintendo atm, I don't know.
In a world where two of the biggest Switch titles are Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Octopath Traveler, not to mention Fire Emblem: Three Houses is being set up as one of their major releases of 2019, I think the answer to that question is self-evident. That doesn't mean it's happening, but this an ideal environment for a Golden Sun remake/reboot to be greenlit, assuming Camelot isn't already on Mario Golf duty.
 

LuminoZero

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
182
I agree with Ivan, I tend to be a realist too and the only way I can think of the Golden Sun to rise is if for some reason Sakurai decide that Assists can now be promoted to playable. That's not impossible, it's his game, he can make whatever he wants as long as Nintendo headquarters agree.

As for the series itself I also think remakes should come first to gather new fans. But from a business standpoint would it be profitable for Nintendo atm, I don't know.
If Isaac is DLC that decision was likely made long ago. Remember, creating a character takes about a year.
 

StrawHatX

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
1,086
It’s really hard for me to imagine that there won’t be anymore DLC after these 5 characters come out.

The Switch isn’t even 2 years old yet and it’s selling like crazy. It’s going to be around for at least another 4-5 years and that means Ultimate will be around for at least that long and most likely a few years more. I don’t see how we won’t get more DLC down the line.

So at that point I see no reason why assist trophies won’t be considered for playable status since this game will be the definitive Smash game for a long time.

I’m a little worried though that if Isaac doesn’t get into Ultimate as a fighter then it’s going to be hard for him to get into Smash 6 unless we get a new Golden Sun game before then and it’s popularity goes up. Simply due to the fact that Smash 6 will most likely cut the roster in half since this game is the Ultimate version. I have a hard time imagining them topping this character count.
 

Undella2

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
249
Well, I had a look around some of the other threads, and it seems like almost every single Nintendo franchise, if it wasn't obvious/known already, got at least 1 spirit or more.

If spirits count as hard disconfirmations, then they'll have to go below the bottom of the barrel if they want any Nintendo characters, other than the P L A N T, to be some sort of DLC.

Therefore, it is highly likely that spirits shouldn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.

AT's on the other hand...

If we want Isaac to come into the game as a fully-fledged character, since he is the most well-known GS character now, we'll certainly have to make the 11th count. I hope we're all ready.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Because people wouldn't pay for Minecraft Steve.

They are going to release characters that there is demand for. That people (besides the hardcores who will buy everyone) will actually pay for. Steve doesn't meet that criteria.
They appear to think that people will pay for Piranha Plant. If you don’t register a copy of the game before January 31st, you will have to pay if you want it.

If that’s their thought process, I can also see them charging for Steve. As much bull**** as that would be.

Nintendo seems to think that people won’t pay for the characters they voted for in the ballot - what we want is (apparently) third party characters. More mass appeal, I guess. It’s easier to advertise Steve than it is Geno.
 

TheSpaceKing12

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Messages
435
Location
The moon
NNID
IsaacForSSB4
3DS FC
2105-8706-4581
I agree with Ivan, I tend to be a realist too and the only way I can think of the Golden Sun to rise is if for some reason Sakurai decide that Assists can now be promoted to playable. That's not impossible, it's his game, he can make whatever he wants as long as Nintendo headquarters agree.

As for the series itself I also think remakes should come first to gather new fans. But from a business standpoint would it be profitable for Nintendo atm, I don't know.
There's a ton of depth to that question. And in order to get to the bottom of it, I have to give you a summation of how Golden Sun almost certainly fits into the sphere of game production. I have a lot of experience with game sales and analysis thereof. So follow me. This will be a long comment.

The first golden sun game sold 1.7 million copies. That would suggest a high profit margin. But the problem we have to consider there is A, the games development cycle, which given it started as a 64 game, is fair to assume was troubled getting off the ground. And the standard MSRP of a GBA game at launch (30 dollars, if I recall) [However, the studio is not making 30 per game, as the publisher takes a cut, as well as the stores where games are sold, it would be more like 15] was a formula for commercial disappointment. While far from an outright flop. It's suffice to say that commercial turn around was not as strong as Nintendo corporate was hoping for with a shiny new IP, that was was initially pitched as Nintendo's reply for Final fantasy and other PlayStation rpgs. And given it's visual style, which was boundary pushing given what was capable on GBA. This game was probably a pretty penny when compared to the average production of a GBA game. They made money, but not as much as they wanted.

That's where things start to go downhill. Usually when you have a lukewarm commercial victory, the publisher will allow you to do a sequel, under the pretense that said sequel MUST sell even better to compensate for under performance of the first title. If Sales increase, that is indicative of a brand with massive staying power, as that would mean word of mouth carried the title, and hype continued to grow title over title. The Lost age sold 1.2 million. This was likely a big disappointment for Nintendo. The lost age's production was likely no where near as expensive as the first game, due to asset re-use and not have to program an engine from scratch. But this decreased cost did not make the difference necessary for Nintendo to green light further sequels.

Dark Dawn is an industry example of what is known as developer bet, and or passion project. These are often spurred by a combination of fan demand, developer passion, and sometimes proper timing. These are typically games that corporate really didn't want to do, but devs on high in the studio had to push really, really hard for it. Staking both credibility and reputation on the line in order to achieve. Nintendo would reluctantly give the go ahead. However, the bar for entry of a DS game production is leaps and bounds higher than that of a GBA game. So the already dwindling staff of the Original two titles was essentially boned from the start. Dark Dawn sold 850K copies. From there, nintendo corporate puts the IP on ice indefinitely. The sales have trended downward from the first title onward, and Dark Dawn actually lost the studio money. With this loss, it's suffice to say people at Camelot lost a lot of creative freedom as punishment for their gamble.

This isn't all supposition. This is plugging Golden Sun into the time tested and time approved formula by which the whole of the game industry operates. The almighty dollar is the dictate by which everything is ran. Golden Sun would have likely fared better as a Nintendo Gamecube game. As the high production values, in combination with excellent design would have led to a more sustainable formula. As the higher values would be offset by the higher standard cost of a video game. 1.7 million copies sold at 50 dollars a game, is a massively higher turn around than that of 1.7 million at 30 dollars a game. Even in scenarios where the GBA game costs 2 million to make, and the Gamecube game is more like 8 million. (these are estimates, cost on both sides can go far higher or lower depending on marketing push)

The ideal for Nintendo right now is to go cover every IP in the catalog. The Switch is a rare kind of platform. It has caused a significant boon in the raw sales data of nearly every franchise that nintendo owns to touch it. While on ice IP's haven't been tested yet. It's suffice to say this would make for a massive boon as well. Nintendo would be most interested in a remake of Golden Sun 1. As it is both the most commercially, and critically successful title in the series. We have seen a very significant increase in sales RPG's on switch specifically. This is a rare opportunity for Nintendo to actually consider the production of a new title. As the timing is ripe. However. This where a problem is presented. The vast majoirty of the Golden Sun team no longer operates at Camelot. And Nintendo is not going to make the mistake of placing a shattered team on a new production once more. This time, and even MORE shattered team. And given the historically shakey commercial history of the series, Nintendo's best interest would be to oversea the external production of a new title under a new development studio.

The studio in question will need large experience with RPG's. So Nintendo's first order of business would be finding a developer who can work cheap enough, where if the new title fails, there is no huge loss incurred. This is where things get very murky. I say it's suffice to assume that some things have been considered internally. Merely on account of the golden sun series new trademark. However, finding the proper team that has both the talent, and works cheap enough, in order to avoid risk, is key. If a developer is found that would be willing in the next year or two, expect a remake of Golden Sun 1.

Golden Sun 1 is statistically the most likely to sell. Most likely to review well, and in this day and age, first parties are starting to care more about quality than raw game sales. but nintendo is still fickle, don't expect a new custom robo or F-zero verry soon. An extremely good game is lfar more likely to move consoles to more niche audiences. This for instance, is how Xenoblade can remain a strong force despite questionable sales. Xenoblade fans will buy consoles to buy new xenoblade games. And even if those games sell poorly, the first party in question will make the money back in sales of games like Mario Odessey, and other titles. As a Xenoblade fan who wasn't interested in the console for Mario Odessey, is still likely to go back and buy it now that they own the console. and by extension, the only place to play it.

It's an "every console matters" approach that we are seeing adopted more and more, especially by Sony, who fund's small games just because their bigger games will pay for them, and the overall critical and variety based aspect of the library is increased. If Nintendo wishes to move this policy to more IP's, Golden Sun stands out as a prime candidate. I wouldn't hold out hope to fiercely. But I would argue that Golden Sun is a series that's true commerical potential has never been seen. The closest would be the first title on GBA, which was drastically bottlenecked on account of being an unproven IP at the time, and the standards MSRP of a GBA game holding the end numbers back severely
 
Last edited:

Flynn.Scifo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
687
Location
Paris . France
If spirits do matter they could still go for something like : Sora, Lloyd, fire emblem three houses or shadow of Valentia rep, banjo kazooie, and I don't know Rayman ?

Edit : One other thing on that matter. People say that some of the fighters have been spotted as spirits too. But were the spirits using the smash bros render or the original from their series ? I think this is an important clue to consider if spirits can be promoted fighters.
 
Last edited:

FunAtParties

PM me ur character ideas girl
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
3,880
Location
Illinois
NNID
ZestyÑ
Switch FC
SW-8404-4905-2993
There's a ton of depth to that question. And in order to get to the bottom of it, I have to give you a summation of how Golden Sun almost certainly fits into the sphere of game production. I have a lot of experience with game sales and analysis thereof. So follow me. This will be a long comment.

The first golden sun game sold 1.7 million copies. That would suggest a high profit margin. But the problem we have to consider there is A, the games development cycle, which given it started as a 64 game, is fair to assume was troubled getting off the ground. And the standard MSRP of a GBA game at launch (30 dollars, if I recall) [However, the studio is not making 30 per game, as the publisher takes a cut, as well as the stores where games are sold, it would be more like 15] was a formula for commercial disappointment. While far from an outright flop. It's suffice to say that commercial turn around was not as strong as Nintendo corporate was hoping for with a shiny new IP, that was was initially pitched as Nintendo's reply for Final fantasy and other PlayStation rpgs. And given it's visual style, which was boundary pushing given what was capable on GBA. This game was probably a pretty penny when compared to the average production of a GBA game. They made money, but not as much as they wanted.

That's where things start to go downhill. Usually when you have a lukewarm commercial victory, the publisher will allow you to do a sequel, under the pretense that said sequel MUST sell even better to compensate for under performance of the first title. If Sales increase, that is indicative of a brand with massive staying power, as that would mean word of mouth carried the title, and hype continued to grow title over title. The Lost age sold 1.2 million. This was likely a big disappointment for Nintendo. The lost age's production was likely no where near as expensive as the first game, due to asset re-use and not have to program an engine from scratch. But this decreased cost did not make the difference necessary for Nintendo to green light further sequels.

Dark Dawn is an industry example of what is known as developer bet, and or passion project. These are often spurred by a combination of fan demand, developer passion, and sometimes proper timing. These are typically games that corporate really didn't want to do, but devs on high in the studio had to push really, really hard for it. Staking both credibility and reputation on the line in order to achieve. Nintendo would reluctantly give the go ahead. However, the bar for entry of a DS game production is leaps and bounds higher than that of a GBA game. So the already dwindling staff of the Original two titles was essentially boned from the start. Dark Dawn sold 850K copies. From there, nintendo corporate puts the IP on ice indefinitely. The sales have trended downward from the first title onward, and Dark Dawn actually lost the studio money. With this loss, it's suffice to say people at Camelot lost a lot of creative freedom as punishment for their gamble.

This isn't all supposition. This is plugging Golden Sun into the time tested and time approved formula by which the whole of the game industry operates. The almighty dollar is the dictate by which everything is ran. Golden Sun would have likely fared better as a Nintendo Gamecube game. As the high production values, in combination with excellent design would have led to a more sustainable formula. As the higher values would be offset by the higher standard cost of a video game. 1.7 million copies sold at 50 dollars a game, is a massively higher turn around than that of 1.7 million at 30 dollars a game. Even in scenarios where the GBA game costs 2 million to make, and the Gamecube game is more like 8 million. (these are estimates, cost on both sides can go far higher or lower depending on marketing push)

The ideal for Nintendo right now is to go cover every IP in the catalog. The Switch is a rare kind of platform. It has caused a significant boon in the raw sales data of nearly every franchise that nintendo owns to touch it. While on ice IP's haven't been tested yet. It's suffice to say this would make for a massive boon as well. Nintendo would be most interested in a remake of Golden Sun 1. As it is both the most commercially, and critically successful title in the series. We have seen a very significant increase in sales RPG's on switch specifically. This is a rare opportunity for Nintendo to actually consider the production of a new title. As the timing is ripe. However. This where a problem is presented. The vast majoirty of the Golden Sun team no longer operates at Camelot. And Nintendo is not going to make the mistake of placing a shattered team on a new production once more. This time, and even MORE shattered team. And given the historically shakey commercial history of the series, Nintendo's best interest would be to oversea the external production of a new title under a new development studio.

The studio in question will need large experience with RPG's. So Nintendo's first order of business would be finding a developer who can work cheap enough, where if the new title fails, there is no huge loss incurred. This is where things get very murky. I say it's suffice to assume that some things have been considered internally. Merely on account of the golden sun series new trademark. However, finding the proper team that has both the talent, and works cheap enough, in order to avoid risk, is key. If a developer is found that would be willing in the next year or two, expect a remake of Golden Sun 1.

Golden Sun 1 is statistically the most likely to sell. Most likely to review well, and in this day and age, first parties are starting to care more about quality than raw game sales. but nintendo is still fickle, don't expect a new custom robo or F-zero verry soon. An extremely good game is lfar more likely to move consoles to more niche audiences. This for instance, is how Xenoblade can remain a strong force despite questionable sales. Xenoblade fans will buy consoles to buy new xenoblade games. And even if those games sell poorly, the first party in question will make the money back in sales of games like Mario Odessey, and other titles. As a Xenoblade fan who wasn't interested in the console for Mario Odessey, is still likely to go back and buy it now that they own the console. and by extension, the only place to play it.

It's an "every console matters" approach that we are seeing adopted more and more, especially by Sony, who fund's small games just because their bigger games will pay for them, and the overall critical and variety based aspect of the library is increased. If Nintendo wishes to move this policy to more IP's, Golden Sun stands out as a prime candidate. I wouldn't hold out hope to fiercely. But I would argue that Golden Sun is a series that's true commerical potential has never been seen. The closest would be the first title on GBA, which was drastically bottlenecked on account of being an unproven IP at the time, and the standards MSRP of a GBA game holding the end numbers back severely
Wow what a post.
 

KoopaSaki

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
559
Wow, even as a huge Waluigi fan, I never knew about this. This is the first time I've ever heard about it. Now you got me intrigued BluePikmin
Just finished my OBGYN shelf and had some time to collect my thoughts on the situation. As someone who has wanted Isaac playable since Brawl was announced (and as my #1 most wanted newcomer for Ultimate and #2 for Smash 4), of course I'm incredibly disappointed not only that Isaac is an AT, but also the that my hopes of bringing new life to the franchise has been dusted.

Unfortunately, I think the bottom line is that Isaac under-performed on the Smash Ballot. I understand that he was a popular contender among SmashBoards, Reddit, Gamefaqs, etc., especially with all of the polling that has been done over the years, but all of these individual communities are just a small part of the fanbase. For instance, Bayonetta was considered the top overall pick for the ballot, yet she certainly did not perform well based on all of these fan-made polls. We all know that Isaac got cut from Smash 4 entirely and that the representation for the franchise in Ultimate will most likely consist of two songs (Battle Scene/Final Boss and Weyward) + an AT. This, compounded with the fact that Camelot has shown little interest in continuing the Golden Sun series given how much attention the Sports franchise has received these past few years, makes me believe that Golden Sun is simply not a priority target for anyone. Not Camelot. Not Nintendo. Not Sakurai. And as much as I hate to say it, this is understandable.

My hype has also been killed as far Piranha Plant goes, but I can't bring myself to say he 'stole' any character's spots (similar to ROB's case) because Sakurai intended to put a joke character in. It could have been a Goomba in a boot or Chain Chomp or anything else but the bottom line is that a joke character was getting in no matter what.

As far as DLC goes the unrealistic slivers of hope are: 1). Sakurai does the unexpected and allows a current AT to also be playable. 2). Camelot intends to make Matthew the new lead/face of Golden Sun. I would not bet a single penny on either to happen though. So given that Piranha Plant is not part of the the other 5 DLC characters, who is all left now that several top contenders such as Rex, Skull Kid, Spring Man, etc. have been axed (Assuming the roster has been decided long ago based on Sakurai's comments on Rex's situation and being in Spirits =/= impossibilities. So no surprise 8th gen Pokemon, Three Houses protagonist, etc.)? My guesses for now would be:

-Chorus Kids (They had character files in Smash 4, most likely intended to be playable).
-Geno (Sakurai stated in interviews that he wanted him to be playable in previous games. If not Geno then another Square character based on Vergeben. Regardless of your opinions on him, he has been the best source of leaks so far).
-Microsoft character (I would hate to see Steve but Vergeben believes we will get Minecraft content in some form. Unless they have shown off any Minecraft content yet, the only way I can see Banjo getting in is if that Minecraft content is some sort of 'Microsoft Celebration.).
-Dixie Kong (Overall safe pick and decently popular character. Could easily be Diddy Kong's Isabelle).
-And some other 3rd party fighter (My guilty and unrealistic pick would be Lloyd Irving but the character pool here is so large that it's difficult to call. Heck we could even get both Banjo and Steve...).

Anyways, thanks for reading and thanks for the fun speculation everyone! I wanted Isaac as much as many of you, but I still hope to bump into you guys online when the game comes out!
So, we were discussing this in the Discord, and I think it is worth sharing. Let's start with a picture.

https://twitter.com/sora_sakurai/status/373426526064107523?lang=en



This is from a tweet Sakurai made on August 29th, 2013. One year, to the day, later we had Shulk announced for Smash. Sakurai is also on record saying that a new character takes about a year to make from conception to finish.

I still fully believe the Rathalos picture was a Golden Sun reference. Too many coincidences in it. But what if we read the meaning of the picture wrong? Sakurai has a habit of posting teases and hints like this when he is most involved with a character, in the planning and designing stages.

What if the message that tweet was supposed to send wasn't "Isaac is next to be revealed" but "I heard you, I'm working on it"?

So, assuming the timeline still holds, that would mean roughly a year. Assuming less time, because Isaac would be stand alone DLC and not part of a larger game, he might be done by early summer. Just in time for E3. Now then, suppose there was some other announcement at E3 that might make a Golden Sun character much more profitable for Nintendo, much like Corrin was?

Yes, this is a crap ton of conjecture, I won't deny that. But right about now I think we need a little hope, as far fetched as it might be.
@XenoWarriorX like I said Nintendo of america's twitter is open to the public to receve direct messages GO TELL THEM !
 

AlliwantisIsaac

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
52
Guys I think the Rathalos picture was in fact just a Monster Hunter reference that unfortunately turned out to be quite similar to Golden sun camera angle. Just like for the healing item we misinterpreted it.
I'm a huge monster hunter fan and yes IT IS a monster hunter reference. How can i tell? Well, in MH games you can fight monsters in arenas (not coliseums) and he's being fought by swordsmen. AAAAND not to mention both link and marth costumes are available as dlc in the latest monster hunter game for the switch.

Was gonna add a pic to further prove my point but i'm a noob around here still and i don't know how. :v
 
Last edited:

Flynn.Scifo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
687
Location
Paris . France
I'm a huge monster hunter fan and yes IT IS a monster hunter reference. How can i tell? Well, in MH games you can fight monsters in arenas (not coliseums) and he's being fought by swordsmen. AAAAND not to mention both link and marth costumes are available as dlc in the latest monster hunter game for the switch.

Was gonna add a pic to further prove my point but i'm a noob around here still and i don't know how. :v
I'm a big MH fan too so yea I can see what you're referring to. Makes me realize that one of the potential DLC could also be a monster hunter rep.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom