Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[KMDP]

(don't have time to tally up the full numbers again right now, but if someone else wants to, it would be welcome)

Ask and you shall receive.
New Series in Smash 64: Mario, Donkey Kong, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Star Fox, Pokémon, Mother, F-Zero
New Series in Melee: Ice Climber, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch
New Series in Brawl: Wario, Kid Icarus, Pikmin, R.O.B., Metal Gear, Sonic
New Series in Smash 4: Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch Out!!, Xenoblade, Duck Hunt, Mii, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy VII, Bayonetta
New Series in Ultimate: Splatoon

Only including series with Fighters for obvious reasons.

EDIT: Tldr; the numbers are 9, 3, 6, 11, 1+

 

[StormC]

Considering Melee had 8 original newcomers and that’s an optimistic ceiling for what we will get in Ultimate, we’ll likely have 1-2 more new IPs. One might not be Nintendo.

 

[Skyblade12]

Ask and you shall receive.
New Series in Smash 64: Mario, Donkey Kong, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Star Fox, Pokémon, Mother, F-Zero
New Series in Melee: Ice Climber, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch
New Series in Brawl: Wario, Kid Icarus, Pikmin, R.O.B., Metal Gear, Sonic
New Series in Smash 4: Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch Out!!, Xenoblade, Duck Hunt, Mii, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy VII, Bayonetta
New Series in Ultimate: Splatoon

Only including series with Fighters for obvious reasons.

EDIT: Tldr; the numbers are 9, 3, 6, 11, 1+

9, 3, 4, 6, 1+
Going by first party numbers.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Ask and you shall receive.
New Series in Smash 64: Mario, Donkey Kong, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Star Fox, Pokémon, Mother, F-Zero
New Series in Melee: Ice Climber, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch
New Series in Brawl: Wario, Kid Icarus, Pikmin, R.O.B., Metal Gear, Sonic
New Series in Smash 4: Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch Out!!, Xenoblade, Duck Hunt, Mii, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy VII, Bayonetta
New Series in Ultimate: Splatoon

Only including series with Fighters for obvious reasons.

EDIT: Tldr; the numbers are 9, 3, 6, 11, 1+

Minor nitpick here in that Yoshi is missing from the 64 lineup.

After 4, there was bound to be a regression in new series even without Ultimate's focus on bringing back all veterans. Even so, if we can get another new first party IP or two, Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven seem like the strongest candidates in the running. Others are either dormant and without a character of Isaac's current popularity (AW, Custom Robo, and S&P) or obscure and without the devoted fan following (Dillon, Chibi-Robo).

I think the Chorus Kids idea could be returned to like Ice Climbers were now that handheld Smash is done away with, and maybe they'll get in as a secret non-ballot character. They probably have some assets left over after all.

We'll see if that'd be enough for Sakurai.

 

[Lisbon Mapping]

I definitely support! Although I've never played a Golden Sun game, it's obvious that Golden Sun definitely deserves representation in Smash and Isaac has the potential to have an incredibly unique moveset unless Sakurai decides to do something strange with him.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

to me the easiest pick would be Isacc, Ray Mk II, Ashley etc they would be easy and unique I'm honestly hoping for less third parties and more Nintendo only reps

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I do think if Sakurai cares about representing new series in each Smash game (something I'm not convinced about) that puts Isaac in a wonderful position because I can't really imagine any other new franchise (aside from Splatoon and I guess Bayonetta) performing as strongly in the ballot.

I feel like most of Isaacs competition comes from franchises that already have representation in Smash.

Of course third parties are a bit of a wild card since most of them would be new franchises as well.

That said I feel like the amount of new franchises we get each game isn't because Sakurai focuses on new franchises, it just happens that way.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

And as much as I don't care for Geno, I will admit that if he's revealed as one of the next couple newcomers, it could really be a boon to the chances of K. Rool and Isaac. If Sakurai is willing to go out of his way to get the rights to a 25 year old character from a series that has not at all needed their presence to succeed, then it shows that he's willing to look past potential irrelevance and casual obscurity.

This is the reason that I think that, even if you don't support Geno on a personal level, you should still support him for the sake of proving that yes, any Nintendo character can make their way into Smash with a passionate enough fan base and move potential. He's sort of the epitome of forgotten and irrelevant character, so his place in any roster would cast aside so many notions of what people think with regards to Smash lineups, and that can only be a good thing.

Isaac isn't quite in that bad of a position yet, but he comes from a dormant franchise all the same and that's another niche I think we need to have a character to fill. One-off irrelevant character in Geno, the irrelevant dormant franchise in Golden Sun's Isaac, and then the now irrelevant main villain in King K. Rool. Three different tiers of "irrelevancy" that people love to throw around, having all three would destroy all notions of how to go about predicting Smash rosters. This is one of the big reasons I support these three so much (In addition to genuinely loving all three characters and believing they have unique and interesting potential play styles obviously).

If they're going to add a new franchise to Smash Ultimate, there are only really five more notable ones I can think of without being specific to one offs: Isaac, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, and Sin and Punishment (alas Starfy is already deconfirmed). Of those franchises only one really has a major character with major support from a fan community, so I think it makes the most sense to add Isaac in. That said, what makes sense isn't always done with regards to Smash but one can hope. Rhythm Heaven would come next, but there's a lot of debate on who should be the rep it seems from that game. Chibi Robo is uniquely situated as more of his own sort of thing rather than really a franchise at the end of the day (another I'd love to see though). Saki and Andy both have support, but not to the degree of other characters. Again, that just leaves Isaac as the main person.

 

[Organization XIII]

I'm not going to support Geno just because he's irrelevant. There are plenty of irrelevant characters I would actually like to see instead. Even though I love Geno in SMRPG I really am apathetic to his inclusion.

 

[Skyblade12]

This is the reason that I think that, even if you don't support Geno on a personal level, you should still support him for the sake of proving that yes, any Nintendo character can make their way into Smash with a passionate enough fan base and move potential. He's sort of the epitome of forgotten and irrelevant character, so his place in any roster would cast aside so many notions of what people think with regards to Smash lineups, and that can only be a good thing.

Isaac isn't quite in that bad of a position yet, but he comes from a dormant franchise all the same and that's another niche I think we need to have a character to fill. One-off irrelevant character in Geno, the irrelevant dormant franchise in Golden Sun's Isaac, and then the now irrelevant main villain in King K. Rool. Three different tiers of "irrelevancy" that people love to throw around, having all three would destroy all notions of how to go about predicting Smash rosters. This is one of the big reasons I support these three so much (In addition to genuinely loving all three characters and believing they have unique and interesting potential play styles obviously).

If they're going to add a new franchise to Smash Ultimate, there are only really five more notable ones I can think of without being specific to one offs: Isaac, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, and Sin and Punishment (alas Starfy is already deconfirmed). Of those franchises only one really has a major character with major support from a fan community, so I think it makes the most sense to add Isaac in. That said, what makes sense isn't always done with regards to Smash but one can hope. Rhythm Heaven would come next, but there's a lot of debate on who should be the rep it seems from that game. Chibi Robo is uniquely situated as more of his own sort of thing rather than really a franchise at the end of the day (another I'd love to see though). Saki and Andy both have support, but not to the degree of other characters. Again, that just leaves Isaac as the main person.

But Geno isn’t a Nintendo character. He’s owned, or at least co-owned, by Square. And third party characters follow different rules.

Please note: I’m not saying that I’d have a problem with Geno. Just that I don’t think his chances and Isaac’s are too related. The only characters I think could be revealed that we could use to gauge Isaac’s chances would be lesser supported first party ballot choices like Andy or Ray.

 

[Hydewell]

Good point. And this is just a theory so don't worry about sounding selfish. I am kinda torn between both choices honestly. Am not sure if Isaac in Ultimate would lead towards a new Golden Sun game however. I mean, Ice Climbers have been in 2 Smash games before Ultimate, Ultimate being their 3rd time.. and still no new game. Sheik also wasn't used again till Hyrule Warriors, and even Ganondorf isn't exactly a major character in Zelda anymore. Smash also didn't result in a new Punch Out game, or even F-Zero or MOTHER. Not even MOTHER 3 will see the light in the West, despite being a major request, and Lucas will hit 3-time veteran status with Ultimate. Same with Roy and Fire Emblem 6 (although am confident he'll get there eventually).

So that's why I asked this question. Because, y'know.. things are never guranteed.

To all those who would vote a new Golden Sun game instead, what if this new game would be a remake? And to those who vote Isaac in Smash, will a potential remake of just the first game alone be enough to change your mind? Am quite curious about this...

The problems with Ice Climbers are two:
- Their creator, Kenji Miki, is retired.
- And the big problem, Nintendo can't handle a lot of projects. They have ¿13? teams in their headquarters but a half of them supervise projects or develope mobile games. And other teams are specialised: Zelda team, Miyamoto team (mario 2d+pikmin), minigame team (Rythm and Wario Ware) and "casual" team (the experiments like 1,2 Switch, Nintendo Labo, Wii Fit, etc.) so I can understand why they didn't make one. So, their only hope would be the external&affiliated teams do the jobs, but a lot of them don't fit well and the others have their IPs (Vanpool and Skip basically). So they would need to contract a studio to do an Ice Climbers game, but probably it'd be a small eshop title so I don't think it would be (very) profitable. And it's a shame because the Switch concept really fit them and making a new game à la Snipperclips would be very easy to create.

The same happens with F-Zero and Punch Out. The japanese studios aren't interested/suited, and the occidental teams (NLG and Retro Studios) are busy with other projects. Also, at least we know Nintendo wanted to do a new F-Zero in the Wii U era, but Criterion wasn't interested/was working in another project in that time.

On the other hand, Mother 3 has a lot of topics that would hurt Nintendo a lot. They should change some of the sprites (and some of the story) if they don't want the press and the internet criticise them.

About your question, I would choose a new Golden Sun game, even it's a remake of the first two. If the new game it's done well (and has a decent budget), focusing on the old school RPG with some difficulty, a complete story and good ambientation, the game will sell well. The franchise has a good potential but it's a shame they don't take advantage. And the market definitely needs more turn-based RPGs.

 

[Skyblade12]

The problems with Ice Climbers are two:
- Their creator, Kenji Miki, is retired.
- And the big problem, Nintendo can't handle a lot of projects. They have ¿13? teams in their headquarters but a half of them supervise projects or develope mobile games. And other teams are specialised: Zelda team, Miyamoto team (mario 2d+pikmin), so I can understand why they didn't make one. So, their only hope would be the external&affiliated teams do the jobs, but a lot of them don't fit well and the others have their IPs (Vanpool and Skip basically). So they would need to contract a studio to do an Ice Climbers game, but probably it'd be a small eshop title so I don't think it would be (very) profitable. And it's a shame because the Switch concept really fit them and making a new game à la Snipperclips would be very easy to create.

The same happens with F-Zero and Punch Out. The japanese studios aren't interested/suited, and the occidental teams (NLG and Retro Studios) are busy with other projects. Also, at least we know Nintendo wanted to do a new F-Zero in the Wii U era, but Criterion wasn't interested/was working in another project in that time.

On the other hand, Mother 3 has a lot of topics that would hurt Nintendo a lot. They should change some of the sprites (and some of the story) if they don't want the press and the internet criticise them.

About your question, I would choose a new Golden Sun game, even it's a remake of the first two. If the new game it's done well (and has a decent budget), focusing on the old school RPG with some difficulty, a complete story and good ambientation, the game will sell well. The franchise has a good potential but it's a shame they don't take advantage. And the market definitely needs more turn-based RPGs.

The internet outrage if they tried to censor the game would be even worse.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

After 4, there was bound to be a regression in new series even without Ultimate's focus on bringing back all veterans. Even so, if we can get another new first party IP or two, Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven seem like the strongest candidates in the running. Others are either dormant and without a character of Isaac's current popularity (AW, Custom Robo, and S&P) or obscure and without the devoted fan following (Dillon, Chibi-Robo).

There is also ARMS, which has a huge disadvantage in terms of timing for the base roster.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

There is also ARMS, which has a huge disadvantage in terms of timing for the base roster.

Shoot, forgot to mention ARMS in my comment, but exactly. Even the director thinks it's too new. There weren't really many viable options for new franchises at the time, but Golden Sun might be one of them.

 

[Hydewell]

The internet outrage if they tried to censor the game would be even worse.

Purist Mother/Nintendo fans vs tumblr and liberal press. That would be interesting to see

 

[KMDP]

Minor nitpick here in that Yoshi is missing from the 64 lineup.

After 4, there was bound to be a regression in new series even without Ultimate's focus on bringing back all veterans. Even so, if we can get another new first party IP or two, Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven seem like the strongest candidates in the running. Others are either dormant and without a character of Isaac's current popularity (AW, Custom Robo, and S&P) or obscure and without the devoted fan following (Dillon, Chibi-Robo).

I think the Chorus Kids idea could be returned to like Ice Climbers were now that handheld Smash is done away with, and maybe they'll get in as a secret non-ballot character. They probably have some assets left over after all.

We'll see if that'd be enough for Sakurai.

I think I conflated Mario and Yoshi into one series, because... well, they pretty much are. XD

But "10, 3, 6, 11, 1+" doesn't really change much, as you implied.

 

[StormC]

Outside of maybe the Magypsies and Fassad I don’t see anything especially problematic in Mother 3. I’m pretty sure any controversies would be minor at best as long as the game had a T rating. The game is popular on Tumblr so I’m not sure why they would be upset.

 

[Deleted member]

Warning: Objects seen with Reveal may be hotter than they appear.

 

[Hydewell]

Outside of maybe the Magypsies and Fassad I don’t see anything especially problematic in Mother 3. I’m pretty sure any controversies would be minor at best as long as the game had a T rating. The game is popular on Tumblr so I’m not sure why they would be upset.

Basically, it's relating transgender people (Magypsies and the robots in the sea's bottom) to sexuality. But not in a good way. They're treated as very sexual characters, flirting with every character and one of them even have a disturbing scene with Lucas in the hot spring that could be considered as pedophilia (I mean, Ionia probably drowns him to awake his powers, but the scene doesn't intentionally show it and with the position of Lucas and what Ionia says during the drowning, it could be easily misinterpreted (I guess it's the special Itoi's humor)).
Considering the transgender people only wants acceptance, one of the most importand videogame company would release a game where it represents them as sexual focused people who one of them could have abused a 14 years old teen...
There are other issues like drugs (the mushroom in the island), but well, the most important issue is the first one.

Even with a T rating, they would complain. FE Fates had an issue with a lesbian character who was involved in a romantic relationship with a guy due to a potion, and it was a T game.

 

[StormC]

The Magypsies would definitely generate a lot of discussion but the game has already been available in English for a decade so I think at this point the controversy would be minimal and not have much of an effect on Nintendo’s brand. Though I can’t rule out the chance of some alterations like they did with Fates.

Anyway, off topic.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

But Geno isn’t a Nintendo character. He’s owned, or at least co-owned, by Square. And third party characters follow different rules.

Please note: I’m not saying that I’d have a problem with Geno. Just that I don’t think his chances and Isaac’s are too related. The only characters I think could be revealed that we could use to gauge Isaac’s chances would be lesser supported first party ballot choices like Andy or Ray.

Geno exists in as weird a place as Bayonetta does. He gets some special considerations as a semi third party, but fewer than basically everyone else.

The point wasn’t to compare Isaac and Geno, or say one affected the other’s chances. I was just saying they entirely existed as highly desired characters that people often pull the irrelevant card on, and the ideal inclusion of both helps to negate those relevancy arguments only for the better. As characters, the only overlap they’d have is perhaps competing on the ballot, but that again isn’t my point. They’re unique requested newcomers who have faced opposition by armchair developers. One can only really be beneficial to the other if one is announced in how it signals the direction of this Smash towards fan requests and popular characters.

 

[RileyXY1]

It has been reported that the artist for the Golden Sun games has passed away.

 

[LasermasterA]

The choice between Isaac in Smash Ultimate or a new Golden Sun game is indeed VERY VERY tough. I am not even a HUGE smash enthusiast, and the main reason I want Isaac in Smash is to show that he is a character worthy of being acknowledged in the history of Nintendo, and to push his popularity enough to give him a new game.

Even then, I'll probably choose Isaac for Smash Ultimate after much thinking. Golden Sun 4, may or may not be good as how the franchise used to be considering how GS3 was. If the new game in question is a remake, in the end it's not exactly a new game but an old game with new shiny stuff.

Getting in Smash however may immortalize him, considering Ultimate has all the past characters and this trend may continue in next Smashes. And it'd be a MASSIVE achievement for all of us!

Therefore, after a lot of indecisiveness, I pick #IsaacForSmash over a new GS game.

 

[Ultinarok]

It has been reported that the artist for the Golden Sun games has passed away.

Wow...odd timing. I bet Sakurai will mention him in some way during Isaac's trailer or trophy section. Provided he's in the game.

That's really unfortunate though. Didn't live to see the series he brought to life come back to life again.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2018/07/golden_sun_and_shining_force_illustrator_passes_away

The illustrator in question is mentioned here. A moment of silence is needed.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's incredibly sad.

Still, thank you for giving us lots of fun.

Rest in peace.

 

[Skyblade12]

Isaac done in the FE Heroes style. Found on Twitter.

I want this to be real. I would whale for him so hard.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I heard about some leaker called leakypanda who is apparently saying there will be a direct at some point between August 1st-9th.

It seems they have some level of credibility too since they leaked the Nintendo direct that happened in March a few days beforehand.

You see I read this and my mind instantly went to "Isaac reveal for Golden Sun's anniversary" and then I remembered that they never do reveals for anniversaries.

edit: link to where I read about the leak
https://heavy.com/games/2018/07/nintendo-direct-july-2018-rumors/

 

[Hydewell]

I heard about some leaker called leakypanda who is apparently saying there will be a direct at some point between August 1st-9th.

It seems they have some level of credibility too since they leaked the Nintendo direct that happened in March a few days beforehand.

You see I read this and my mind instantly went to "Isaac reveal for Golden Sun's anniversary" and then I remembered that they never do reveals for anniversaries.

edit: link to where I read about the leak
https://heavy.com/games/2018/07/nintendo-direct-july-2018-rumors/

That guy is a troll account. Yeah, he guessed the nintendo direct in march, but all the content he said it would have been featured in that direct was wrong. The account was created as a parody by some members in the vandal forums (the previous name of the account was vandal_leaks) due to two guys of the vandal forums claimed a lot of things that were bull**** and some people believed them (one of them was Retro was doing a Banjo&Kazooie game xD), and also, because of boosting popularity of the "insider" Marcus Sellars (a guy who is a fraud in every way).

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Getting tired of these leaks there exhausting at this point I just want to get some real info that isn't bull lol.

 

[LasermasterA]

Isaac done in the FE Heroes style. Found on Twitter.

I want this to be real. I would whale for him so hard.

Please, I can only save so many orbs. I already spent all of them on Mia and Pegasus Nino...

Although yes, I'd dump all my orbs on him if that happened.

 

[SonicLink125]

If and when Isaac is revealed as a new fighter, what music would you guys want to be featured in the trailer?

Personally, I'm stuck between "Battle! [Isaac]" or "Venus Lighthouse". Both are great to represent Isaac. Whether it's their original, remastered or remix version.

If it was Battle! [Isaac], I would like it to be similar to this:
https://youtu.be/ar7KoyNOg-E

For Venus Lighthouse:
https://youtu.be/pGaxaHVJRdY

 

[Icana]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2018/07/golden_sun_and_shining_force_illustrator_passes_away

The illustrator in question is mentioned here. A moment of silence is needed.

I just read about this. This is so sad. I posted his art many pages back to help envision what Isaac as a Smash fighter could potentially do, and look like.

Prayers to his son and the rest of the family. God Bless Hiroshi Kajiyama's soul. Amen.

 

[Skyblade12]

https://twitter.com/tozzeh/status/1015584302426402816?s=20
The original source, to make sure the artist gets credit.

 

[KMDP]

I just read about this. This is so sad. I posted his art many pages back to help envision what Isaac as a Smash fighter could potentially do, and look like.

Prayers to his son and the rest of the family. God Bless Hiroshi Kajiyama's soul. Amen.

Awesome. XD

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

We've lost an amazing artist and big component of soul breath into this series. My sincerest condolences to his family and other partners involved.

At least Shin Yamanouchi's still around.

 

[Ura]

I heard about some leaker called leakypanda who is apparently saying there will be a direct at some point between August 1st-9th.

It seems they have some level of credibility too since they leaked the Nintendo direct that happened in March a few days beforehand.

You see I read this and my mind instantly went to "Isaac reveal for Golden Sun's anniversary" and then I remembered that they never do reveals for anniversaries.

edit: link to where I read about the leak
https://heavy.com/games/2018/07/nintendo-direct-july-2018-rumors/

Little Mac was revealed in the same month as Punch-Out's 30th anniversary.

Which is also the same reason i'm hopeful for Andy since it's the 30th anniversary of Famicom Wars this year.

Of course i'm also rooting for Isaac as well. Maybe by some miracle both characters could get in the game.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2018/07/golden_sun_and_shining_force_illustrator_passes_away

The illustrator in question is mentioned here. A moment of silence is needed.

I saw that as well. Really sad.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Rest in peace.

 

[isaac3000]

If and when Isaac is revealed as a new fighter, what music would you guys want to be featured in the trailer?

Personally, I'm stuck between "Battle! [Isaac]" or "Venus Lighthouse". Both are great to represent Isaac. Whether it's their original, remastered or remix version.

If it was Battle! [Isaac], I would like it to be similar to this:
https://youtu.be/ar7KoyNOg-E

For Venus Lighthouse:
https://youtu.be/pGaxaHVJRdY

That Venus Lightthouse theme! I used to have it downloaded on my old phone! I completely forgot about it! This takes me back now, that song screams Golden Sun, it makes me wanna be 10 years old again and play for hours upon hours TLA XD Yes TLA because I played that one first :-P

 

[Falgor]

That Venus Lightthouse theme! I used to have it downloaded on my old phone! I completely forgot about it! This takes me back now, that song screams Golden Sun, it makes me wanna be 10 years old again and play for hours upon hours TLA XD Yes TLA because I played that one first :-P

Haha, Venus Lighthouse is my current ringtone.

That said, it would be weird to not have Isaac's theme for his reveal. After all Venus Lighthouse, in the best scenario, would be featured on the Golden Sun stage of the same name.