Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that octolings are easy to echo.


But....They're even more recent than characters like Rex and Pyra.

Octo expansion came out this year. The most recent stuff in ultimate we have gotten is Mario Odyssey and BOTW.

Do people REALLY expect this to happen in the base game?

Octolings existed since the first game and were wanted as playable since then. That means it's not an issue to go with that. The Octo Expansion did not make them exist, it's just the latest thing that made them playable only. They still exist. They still are similar to Inklings before the Octo Expansion, and they're still popular. Inklings are also heavily based upon the Splatoon 1 appearance. Octolings can easily be that too.

The issue, the real one, is if Sakurai already wanted to make them costumes or playable. Timing is not an issue for a heavily popular character at all. As long as they existed before the project plan started. And especially not for an echo alone. None of these things are an issue at all. It's not comparable to Rex/Pyra in any way.

Why did Richter become an echoe?

Because Simon's mvoeset already was a combination of his and Richter's moves. That's the only reason we know. There's other possible reasons, but this is the current one we're aware of. He noted how they are near similar enough that it feels like they're echo'ing each other. Of course, the fact Richter is an Echo already shows who was made first regardless.

 

[isaac3000]

Because Simon's mvoeset already was a combination of his and Richter's moves. That's the only reason we know. There's other possible reasons, but this is the current one we're aware of. He noted how they are near similar enough that it feels like they're echo'ing each other. Of course, the fact Richter is an Echo already shows who was made first regardless.

Ah I see, didn't remember this, thanks!

 

[Jakisthe]

I think a summon for a final smash would be easiest and the most appropriate. Djinn I'm not so sure, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't incorporate djinn into Isaac's moveset for simplicity.

If I were to incorporate Djinn without being too complicated, I would give Isaac additional effects to smash attacks that are sufficiently charged with some extra animations of Djinn hovering around Isaac during the attacks.

For example;
Side Smash: Isaac slashes with his sword. If he charges long enough, Flint appears and causes bonus damage.
Down Smash: Isaac summons two rocks on both sides (just like Smash Flash 2). If he charges long enough Granite appears and grants Isaac bonus resistance.
Up Smash: Isaac summons a large thorny vine reaching reasonably high above him. If Isaac charges long enough, the Djinn Ground pulls the opponent down and into the ground, buried.

Balancing-wise I'd make it so that Isaac can't get any boosted smash attack effects for a short period of time. I'm sure we'd all love to see Isaac use different summons depending on how many Djinn he has on standby but I think we can all agree that's probably unlikely to happen which is fine.

I feel like putting it in a FS kinda cuts it out for normal gameplay though - something like Iris might be a bit much, but the smaller scale stuff found it's way into normal play pretty often, as I recall. I do like the idea of his smashes being areas where some "less central" things can go, but as far as having a whole setup, I think something like the below could be neat (shameless, that Jakisthe). I don't feel like it's too complicated?

Down B: Does a jumping slash forward with his sword; at the peak of the jump, Isaac flashes gold and a split second later a translucent golden Isaac follows up with a second slash on the same trajectory. If either of them hit a shielding enemy, Isaac gains a Venus djinn icon over his name on his UI (max of 1 per use of the move), making his moves 5% stronger and Isaac himself 5% heavier. At 4 icons, the next down B summons Judgement - the summon appears about 3 character lengths in front of Isaac at the top of the screen, a thin laser comes straight down, and a second later Judgement fires a beam along that laser which pierces through the entire level, about half the width of the Bahamut beam. Following use, Isaac loses all of the buffs, and is in fact his moves are 20% weaker for the next 8 seconds.

I guess this raises the general question of what kind of degree of complexity people feel is too much. Someone like Lil Mac or Cloud each have "this move grows more powerful and/or makes others more powerful" - I'd like to see the edges get pushed but who knows where those are.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Octolings existed since the first game and were wanted as playable since then. That means it's not an issue to go with that. The Octo Expansion did not make them exist, it's just the latest thing that made them playable only. They still exist. They still are similar to Inklings before the Octo Expansion, and they're still popular. Inklings are also heavily based upon the Splatoon 1 appearance. Octolings can easily be that too.

The issue, the real one, is if Sakurai already wanted to make them costumes or playable. Timing is not an issue for a heavily popular character at all. As long as they existed before the project plan started. And especially not for an echo alone. None of these things are an issue at all. It's not comparable to Rex/Pyra in any way.
.

Yes, i know they existed. I did play the campaign before ultimate was even announced. I get that the Rex/Pyra comment seemed a bit overboard, so i do apologize.

But you expected me to buy that people wanted the octolings in smash before the inklings?

Richter was also not nearly as popular as Simon. But there is one distinction between the octolings and Richter.

Richter was shown alongside Simon when Castlevania was revealed to have involvement in smash.

So if they were truly as popular as you say they were, then why weren't they a costume or an echo? Why weren't they shown off like Richter was shown off with Simon?

Why would they announce inklings in one announcement, but then announce octolings (who would supposedly be based on splatoon 1 in this scenario ) in another announcement? Why not announce them all in the same trailer?

 

[pholtos]

If, like with Simon/Richter, they had moves for Isaac that were Felix only, I could see it being a similar situation, although that's... what, the sand psynergy and what else?

 

[DogManStar]

Sand seems like such a Sakurai inclusion to me for whatever reason. I feel like that will be in Isaac’s moveset somehow, at least as a taunt or something.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, i know they existed. I did play the campaign before ultimate was even announced. I get that the Rex/Pyra comment seemed a bit overboard, so i do apologize.

I think it's more people forget the issue with the Rex/Pyra thing. It's not just timing for the project plan, it's that they didn't remotely exist early enough to be in it.

But you expected me to buy that people wanted the octolings in smash before the inklings?

Nobody said that.

Richter was also not nearly as popular as Simon. But there is one distinction between the octolings and Richter.

Wasn't really comparing them.

Richter was shown alongside Simon when Castlevania was revealed to have involvement in smash.

So if they were truly as popular as you say they were, then why weren't they a costume or an echo? Why weren't they shown off like Richter was shown off with Simon?

Why would they announce inklings in one announcement, but then announce octolings (who would supposedly be based on splatoon 1 in this scenario ) in another announcement? Why not announce them all in the same trailer?

Inklings were not "announced in Smash". That's the problem. It wasn't an Inkling Newcomer Trailer. It was a Smash Switch Teaser that basically showed off a newcomer without literally announcing them at all. The trailer to this day is one for Smash Switch. Inklings for some weird reason have no newcomer trailer proper.

You don't know if they were a costume in Smash. I don't know. Maybe they were. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they are unannounced Echoes(again, Inklings were not a real newcomer trailer, so how can they announce another newcomer with them? The whole point was to tease Smash Switch, not to announce the obvious newcomer that everybody knew was coming anyway). The Smash Teaser is literally labeled "Super Smash Bros. Is Coming To Nintendo Switch". The first actual newcomer trailer we got was Ridley's.

I know it's weird they didn't even give Inklings a regular newcomer trailer, but it's very clear they aren't intended to be the point of the Smash teaser, just a small part of it and a good way to hype people up by "announcing"(on a pure technicality, not literally) the most hyped newcomer possible along with a super hyped game.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

While i will concede with the other responses. This one i will critique.

Inklings were not "announced in Smash". That's the problem. It wasn't an Inkling Newcomer Trailer. It was a Smash Switch Teaser that basically showed off a newcomer without literally announcing them at all. The trailer to this day is one for Smash Switch. Inklings for some weird reason have no newcomer trailer proper.

You don't know if they were a costume in Smash. I don't know. Maybe they were. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they are unannounced Echoes(again, Inklings were not a real newcomer trailer, so how can they announce another newcomer with them? The whole point was to tease Smash Switch, not to announce the obvious newcomer that everybody knew was coming anyway). The Smash Teaser is literally labeled "Super Smash Bros. Is Coming To Nintendo Switch". The first actual newcomer trailer we got was Ridley's.

I know it's weird they didn't even give Inklings a regular newcomer trailer, but it's very clear they aren't intended to be the point of the Smash teaser, just a small part of it and a good way to hype people up by "announcing"(on a pure technicality, not literally) the most hyped newcomer possible along with a super hyped game.

Weird, because Inklings were obviously going to be in smash with the way the were obviously in the Super Smash bros trailer. I see this as a non-issue.


Even if we don't count that trailer as an announcement for inklings, we had the E3 trailer that had Sakurai explaining what the inklings could do, while showing off all of their costumes.

Pit didn't get his own reveal trailer. I don't see how Inkling not getting a reveal trailer is that jarring.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Weird, because Inklings were obviously going to be in smash with the way the were obviously in the Super Smash bros trailer. I see this as a non-issue.


Even if we don't count that trailer as an announcement for inklings, we had the E3 trailer that had Sakurai explaining what the inklings could do, while showing off all of their costumes.

Pit didn't get his own reveal trailer. I don't see how Inkling not getting a reveal trailer is that jarring.

Why would they reveal another character that is an Echo if it isn't an actual Reveal Trailer for Inklings? They didn't even have a Splash Screen properly. It's obvious why they wouldn't have revealed the Octolings regardless, because it doesn't fit the timing of how reveals work. They can be revealed at any time, or just as much could not be playable. We don't even know if they are costumes, which is also possible they're... trophies at best.

But no, it isn't a real reveal trailer. All reveal trailer gets Splash Screens. That's the difference. It's a Smash Switch Trailer, no more, no less.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Why would they reveal another character that is an Echo if it isn't an actual Reveal Trailer for Inklings? They didn't even have a Splash Screen properly. It's obvious why they wouldn't have revealed the Octolings regardless, because it doesn't fit the timing of how reveals work. They can be revealed at any time, or just as much could not be playable. We don't even know if they are costumes, which is also possible they're... trophies at best.

But no, it isn't a real reveal trailer. All reveal trailer gets Splash Screens. That's the difference. It's a Smash Switch Trailer, no more, no less.

They would show it at E3. That's where the inklings were "officially" announced as fighters in smash. That's where the stage was shown off. That's where the squid sisters were shown off as an assist trophy. That's where ALL of the splatoon content was shown.


Yeah, Octolings are not gonna be shown. I guarantee it.

Dark Samus wasn't shown with Ridley it's possible the Octolings are shown later

...

Metroid. Is. Not. A. New. Debut. Franchise.

 

[Organization XIII]

They would show it at E3. That's where the inklings were "officially" announced as fighters in smash. That's where the stage was shown off. That's where the squid sisters were shown off as an assist trophy. That's where ALL of the splatoon content was shown.


Yeah, Octolings are not gonna be shown. I guarantee it.

Dark Samus wasn't shown with Ridley it's possible the Octolings are shown later

 

[DogManStar]

I'm thinking Octolings are very likely echoes. I don't know if they will be in the base game, but if they aren't, I think their chances for DLC are very good.

 

[Organization XIII]

I dunno if I would buy echos if they were DLC I mean I do essentially have the character already

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I'm thinking Octolings are very likely echoes. I don't know if they will be in the base game, but if they aren't, I think their chances for DLC are very good.

I mean, DLC is likely for them. But base game? No.

Dark Samus was also an echo was samus, an already established fighter in smash.

The only echo that wasn't attached to a veteran fighter, is Richter. And he was announced alongside Simon.

 

[DogManStar]

I dunno if I would buy echos if they were DLC I mean I do essentially have the character already

Maybe you wouldn't, but I have no trouble imagining that some people definitely would.

Ex. I would totally buy Felix as an Isaac echo if he were DLC

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They would show it at E3. That's where the inklings were "officially" announced as fighters in smash. That's where the stage was shown off. That's where the squid sisters were shown off as an assist trophy. That's where ALL of the splatoon content was shown.

No, they wouldn't. They'd show it whenever they want. You know what wasn't shown at e3? A hype 3rd party like Simon. They were not officially announced as fighters at any given point. What they were were "this is obviously them being playable in the game" and said nothing more while announcing Smash Switch.

Yeah, Octolings are not gonna be shown. I guarantee it.

Don't make statements you can't back up.

Metroid. Is. Not. A. New. Debut. Franchise.

Irrelevant. Echoes are not going to be shown always with the character they Echo from. This has never happened outside of Simon. He's a one-time example. All Echoes were revealed separately. A pattern is not a rule.

 

[Organization XIII]

I mean, DLC is likely for them. But base game? No.

Dark Samus was also an echo was samus, an already established fighter in smash.

The only echo that wasn't attached to a veteran fighter, is Richter. And he was announced alongside Simon.

They'd likely be a late addition though so they might not have been ready for E3. I agree we probably won't see them for base but the possibility is there.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

They were not officially announced as fighters at any given point. What they were were "this is obviously them being playable in the game" and said nothing more while announcing Smash Switch.

YES. THEY. WERE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L93H7YC-83o


They have at the bottom "Inkling Approaches". And they even announced them the same way they announced daisy.

Case. Closed.

Don't make statements you can't back up.

"Octolings were wanted well before the Octo Expansion. They're vastly popular."

Can't make statements you can't back up, huh?

Irrelevant. Echoes are not going to be shown always with the character they Echo from. This has never happened outside of Simon. He's a one-time example. All Echoes were revealed separately. A pattern is not a rule.

Pattern is not a rule.

Okay, so i guess that means Inkling's "lack of a reveal" in smash could be mean nothing. It's not like Sakurai has to reveal every fighter in the same way. or even give them a splash screen.

 

[?!?!?!]

I dunno if I would buy echos if they were DLC I mean I do essentially have the character already

Yeah I'm with you on this. Unless the echoes are of characters I really like or think would look cool. I personally wouldn't buy the octolings for example, and only cause I haven't played Splatoon before lol

 

[Organization XIII]

"Octolings were wanted well before the Octo Expansion. They're vastly popular."

Can't make statements you can't back up, huh?

Actually, she can back that one up. Octolings were a popular part of Splatoon and people wanted them playable in Splatoon for a good minute before 2 happened. They were also speculated to be clones of Inklings before echoes became a thing.

Maybe you wouldn't, but I have no trouble imagining that some people definitely would.

Ex. I would totally buy Felix as an Isaac echo if he were DLC

I'm sure some people would but I just meant for me personally. Sure I would buy Felix in a heartbeat but that's more to support GS but like if Octolings got announced I'd have to think hard about if I actually wanted to buy them.

 

[DogManStar]

Actually, she can back that one up. Octolings were a popular part of Splatoon and people wanted them playable in Splatoon for a good minute before 2 happened. They were also speculated to be clones of Inklings before echoes became a thing.

This. I've never even touched Splatoon and I remember how much people liked Octolings right away and wanted them playable in 2. That statement definitely has backing in the truth.

 

[Skyblade12]

If Master Chief got onto the base before Banjo, i'm gonna lol.

Seriously, Halo hasn't even gotten onto the PC yet. Why would they put him in smash?






Ashley was also a popular choice on the list. and even SHE didn't make it in.

Why in all hell would Sakurai give a slot to skull kid when he has about as much going for him in moveset as Ashley???

For right now, the only reason why Skull Kid is a possibility is because Loz18 brought it up. (and we all know how much of a liar he is.)

Actually, the reason Skull Kid is being considered is because The Moon is an AT but we haven’t seen him yet. Part of the complaints about LoZ’s prediction of Skull Kid is that he was just piggybacking off that obvious connection everyone already made.

Again, I feel like it's prudent to iterate that the only two characters that aren't on that exit poll are Dark Samus and Richter, who Sakurai literally said got in for popularity's sake.

I only keep saying this because so many people keep forgetting that popularity is clearly the huge drawing point.

Dark Samus got in due to popularity. With Richter, didn’t he say something about knowing he was more niche, but seeing it as a good opportunity to introduce people or something?

 

[Jakisthe]

If, like with Simon/Richter, they had moves for Isaac that were Felix only, I could see it being a similar situation, although that's... what, the sand psynergy and what else?

I mean, there's a whole bunch of Venus psyenergy which wasn't in the first game but was in TLA. Odyssey comes to mind, for instance, or Tremor, Grind, etc. Not that you're wrong in that Felix as a character isn't *that* removed, but thinking in terms of what each one's games offered.

 

[Silo777]

Wow, it’s getting pretty heated in here...

 

[Golden Icarus]

I mean, DLC is likely for them. But base game? No.

Dark Samus was also an echo was samus, an already established fighter in smash.

The only echo that wasn't attached to a veteran fighter, is Richter. And he was announced alongside Simon.

I mean I don’t see why this would be important. Richter being announced with Simon is hardly proof against the Octolings. Given the way that the Inklings were initially shown off, there’s no reason to believe that they couldn’t reveal the Octolings later.

Who’s to say that they weren’t originally planned as costumes, and then added as echoes later due to popularity and ease of implementation. It happened to Lucina, why can’t this be the case for Octolings?

While I do believe that they are more likely as DLC, there’s no solid reason to rule them out as echoes for the base game.

 

[N3ON]

What I recall is Octolings gaining more demand for playability in Splatoon after they were datamined to be found as possibly playable. However just because they were popular requests there doesn't mean it transferred to Smash, as I recall very little serious demand for Octolings until after Inklings got in. People always acknowledged they'd make for easy clones, but a) clones weren't popular until recently and b) cries for clones of characters that haven't even been included yet never really carry very far. Isaac is quite popular but you wouldn't call Felix a popular request.

I'd call the claim that were Octolings "vastly popular", at least in the context of Smash, quite dubious at best. They were an idea kicked around.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I'm sorry, but i don't believe that they will be in the base game.

If you all wanna go about explaining your reasons why they were popular, fine.

but popularity in splatoon doesn't usually translate well into popularity in smash.

I'm tired. See you all tomorrow.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

YES. THEY. WERE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L93H7YC-83o


They have at the bottom "Inkling Approaches". And they even announced them the same way they announced daisy.

Case. Closed.

I was talking about the Smash Switch Teaser. So they were giving a Splash Screen during the E3 segment. Not the Smash Teaser. They were not announced when Smash Switch was announced. But I honestly did miss their splash screen, but not the context of when I was talking about its first appearance. But fair enough. I can understand you expecting Echoes to be revealed with a Newcomer at the same time. I'd not hold to current patterns, though.

"Octolings were wanted well before the Octo Expansion. They're vastly popular."

Can't make statements you can't back up, huh?

Yes, severely popular things people wanted in Splatoon since they were datamined as things. You're saying there's no way these guys can be playable. You can't seriously back that up anyway. You can't guarantee a character will not be playable when you have literally given zero reason why they wouldn't be. You have nice theories, but a lot of them are severely flawed.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/11/21/splatoon-2s-creative-team-discuss-new-holiday-updates

Of course, as more options come to the game, one long-standing question among fans of Splatoon 2 remains —Will we ever get to play as Octalings?

“We're aware of the fans' desire for playable Octoling characters,” Sato said.

Yes, they were definitely requested. Not for Smash, but that wasn't my point anyway. Them being a popular request for Splatoon shows they have a fanbase. This alone could grab Sakurai's attention, making him willing to make them Echoes to please more fans of the series. That's the point I was making. I was likely vague on that, and I apologize for that.

Pattern is not a rule.

Okay, so i guess that means Inkling's "lack of a reveal" in smash could be mean nothing. It's not like Sakurai has to reveal every fighter in the same way. or even give them a splash screen.

Every single character is given a splash screen in their trailer proper. I honestly missed that part for Inkling, though you missed the point anyway. They were not revealed during the Smash Switch Teaser in the same way as a regular reveal trailer. Obviously Octolings would not be revealed there either. I don't know why you honestly think they would only be revealed along Inklings, instead of later. It's like Sakurai doesn't follow patterns and goes by his own rules. You expecting them to be revealed properly among the Octolings in their reveal trailer(assuming them were already echoes by then)? Okay, that I can get. I mean, look at Dark Pit. People thought he'd have a proper splash screen instead of the tease, but that tease is likely because he wasn't an echo when the trailer was made. Lucina however was an echo when hers and Robin was regardless. So that could be why. It's also possible Lucina was still an alt and an important one they wanted to note in the first place. Remember how the Koopalings were part of Bowser Jr.'s trailer? It could be the same case. Sakurai does like to be humble, but do note he forgot to say Dark Pit is a newcomer in the website, so it could've been a silly oversight or something.

 

[SebasSancy]

I too believe that the Octoling would be DLC, all in the base game seems to be from the first spaltoon. Also, the octolings are popular so people will pay for that DLC

 

[alguidrag]

For me I think they would make all DLC echos as a bundle
like dunno
Ninten, Capt falcon villain, Felix, Octolings as a single DLC

 

[GoodGrief741]

The common reason why people think octolings will be in smash is that octolings are easy to echo.


But....They're even more recent than characters like Rex and Pyra. (at least in terms of them being fully playable, and brought in the public eye.)

Octo expansion came out this year. The most recent stuff in ultimate we have gotten is Mario Odyssey and BOTW.

Do people REALLY expect this to happen in the base game?




At the time of the ballot, i doubt any smash or splatoon fan would want the octolings before the inklings.


The only reason people want the octolings now is because the inklings are represented.

Octolings were incredibly popular since Splatoon 1 (which came out in 2015), that’s why Splatoon 2 has an Octoling as one of the two idols and why Octo Expansion was even made.

 

[SebasSancy]

For me I think they would make all DLC echos as a bundle
like dunno
Ninten, Capt falcon villain, Felix, Octolings as a single DLC

That's seems like something they could do. I thought that even they could give echos as free update and charge only the unique characters

 

[Pwnapplez]

I mean, I care less about Splatoon nor the Octolings.

I feel like Splatoon was cool, however I think the only Echo newfighter combo we will get is Simon/Richter.

Octolings would be like late DLC.

The only other pair I see is Isaac and Felix.


I honestly don’t feel like Octos will be in base game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean, DLC is likely for them. But base game? No.

Dark Samus was also an echo was samus, an already established fighter in smash.

The only echo that wasn't attached to a veteran fighter, is Richter. And he was announced alongside Simon.

Ah yes, the good old making up patterns and rules before a game is released. Smells like lavender and fallacy.

Given how Octolings were highly demanded since their debut, and especially how well received Octo Expansion was (there was a Inkling vs. Octoling Splatfest shortly after, and more people chose to play as Octolings), I wouldn’t put it past the dev team to include them as a last-minute clone/Echo.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

It's still possible they could make echo fighters DLC especially with how much easier and faster they are to make then unique fighters, it's likely they'd probably put the price range somewhere in between a Mii costume price and a new fighter price. Since we have every veteran base game they may just release an echo fighter once in a while to entice fans until a new character is completed and released

 

[Pwnapplez]

Can someone explain to me the appeal of Pyra and Rex taking the JRPG slot?

Like Xeno blade vs Golden Sun Debates.
I feel like that’s xenoblade 2 is just fanservice the Nintendo JRPG.

It's still possible they could make echo fighters DLC especially with how much easier and faster they are to make then unique fighters, it's likely they'd probably put the price range somewhere in between a Mii costume price and a new fighter price. Since we have every veteran base game they may just release an echo fighter once in a while to entice fans until a new character is completed and released

Maybe we would get season passes or something. I think Nintendo will sell echos in packs only.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A key thing for DLC; it needs to sell. Echoes are hard enough to sell and require to either be free or severely low on the pricing to make it worth it for people to care. Echoes are fast clones that take almost no time at all. Many are not even heavily requested as characters that make sense(like, the only one that is a super heavy request is Isabelle, and she isn't even likely to be an Echo, but a unique character due to having vastly different proportions from Villager).

You need to make sure they're all super popular. They make sense as a cheap bundle, but have to come with more popular characters. Let's not forget clones are not very popular compared to unique newcomers. It is notable that the only clone DLC were veterans, making them already popular requests. We never got a single clone dlc newcomer, echo or otherwise. These aren't that easy to sell no matter how you slice it. Clones are overhated, and that's really important to remember.

There's a reason why they work better as base, as people are getting something mostly for free and don't have to pay extra for something that'll annoy them. Echoes are even less unique than a regular clone. How can you expect them to sell well? Octolings don't make sense for DLC. They won't even have the requests to justify it. They don't have Smash requests to begin with. They're just a fun fanservice addition for Splatoon fans, something that only really works for a base roster to begin with. This is ignoring the timing of them being new, which is just when the Project Plan started. They're beyond obviously showing up in some way in the base game, trophy, costume, or otherwise. It makes more sense development-wise to quickly make them an Echo and move on.

 

[DogManStar]

I don't think Rex and Pyra are old enough to take Isaac's "slot", all things considered. Also, they didn't even exist during the ballot, so if Sakurai really is using the ballot a lot, then Isaac will probably take priority over them.

 

[Pwnapplez]

A key thing for DLC; it needs to sell. Echoes are hard enough to sell and require to either be free or severely low on the pricing to make it worth it for people to care. Echoes are fast clones that take almost no time at all. Many are not even heavily requested as characters that make sense(like, the only one that is a super heavy request is Isabelle, and she isn't even likely to be an Echo, but a unique character due to having vastly different proportions from Villager).

You need to make sure they're all super popular. They make sense as a cheap bundle, but have to come with more popular characters. Let's not forget clones are not very popular compared to unique newcomers. It is notable that the only clone DLC were veterans, making them already popular requests. We never got a single clone dlc newcomer, echo or otherwise. These aren't that easy to sell no matter how you slice it. Clones are overhated, and that's really important to remember.

There's a reason why they work better as base, as people are getting something mostly for free and don't have to pay extra for something that'll annoy them. Echoes are even less unique than a regular clone. How can you expect them to sell well? Octolings don't make sense for DLC. They won't even have the requests to justify it. They don't have Smash requests to begin with. They're just a fun fanservice addition for Splatoon fans, something that only really works for a base roster to begin with. This is ignoring the timing of them being new, which is just when the Project Plan started. They're beyond obviously showing up in some way in the base game, trophy, costume, or otherwise. It makes more sense development-wise to quickly make them an Echo and move on.

Sell em in bundles.
3 Echoes for the price of one fighter.

It could work.

I mean, if Nintendo can sell mii fighter outfits I think they will be able to sell Echoes

 

[GoodGrief741]

Can someone explain to me the appeal of Pyra and Rex taking the JRPG slot?

Like Xeno blade vs Golden Sun Debates.
I feel like that’s xenoblade 2 is just fanservice the Nintendo JRPG.

I don’t think there’s a JPRG spot. Nor do I think Isaac and Rex&Pyra have any overlap or are competition. Isaac is a base roster ballot pick while Rex&Pyra are a DLC relevance pick. At least, I hope they’re DLC, as Xenoblade 2, while better received than X, seems to have divided the fanbase with its artstyle.