Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Sabrewulf238]

I think it’d work and I’d love to see it happen.

I just found this on Reddit and it looks cool. Have you seen it before?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...cept_for_giygas_as_an_echo_fighter_of_mewtwo/

Edit: Sorry I guess this is getting a bit off topic.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I just found this on Reddit and it looks cool. Have you seen it before?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...cept_for_giygas_as_an_echo_fighter_of_mewtwo/

Edit: Sorry I guess this is getting a bit off topic.

I have and I loved it.

 

[jweb23]

Well since everyone is giving predictions, I might as well share what I honestly think will end up being the newcomers. First let me say that I think one of the third party characters is gonna be someone that will be massive levels of hype that a lot of people are not considering. Anyways, I think we have 6 newcomers left and 6 echoes!

Newcomers:
Isaac
Marshal (Rhythm Heaven)
Bandana Dee
Elma
Geno
And the final newcomer revealed
Master Chief

Echoes:
Shadow
Isabelle
Impa
Yarn Yoshi
Dixie Kong
Akuma

Possible DLC
Rex & Pyra
Banjo & Kazooie
Rayman
Gen 8 Pokemon
FE Three Houses Character

Yeah I know Master Chief sounds like a pipe dream if not completely insane but Nintendo and Microsoft have been quite friendly for about two years now. Plus his inclusion would reach out to a possible non-Nintendo fan base who love him which is just more Switch sells.

 

[Metocles]

So I kind of see it going like this:

1) Pokemon
2) Retro
3) Skull Kid
4) Geno/Other 3rd Party
~~
5&6) Isaac/Bandana Dee/Other 3rd Party

If this happened, it would go completely counter to what Sakurai said in his last interview. He's looking to the ballot for inclusions in this game. On your list, Geno is basically the only one that would refer to for the base people. It would be strange to me that suddenly after saying that, he shows us a Pokemon that wasn't on the ballot, his own Retro character that's not on the ballot, Skull Kid who's far back on the ballot, or even someone who comes from a complete left field.

I suppose these things are possible going from past Smash games...but I would say that if there was a Retro character, it would be Sakurai's pet project this time and we'd have 5 in base instead of 4. He'd do it on the side to make sure it wouldn't take over tons of development time in someone who wasn't asked for. I seriously wouldn't undercut Isaac's chances here. I realize that there's a lot of antsy feelings as we get closer and closer to the final reveals but you can all rest assured that Isaac got his votes in this ballot.

It really all comes down to concentration of votes. If there were a household name character left, it would have changed things for general voting. Let's just say hypothetically Luigi were never in Smash all the way up til now. The ballot comes along and even if there's not a big vocal majority, he would get tons and tons of general votes from people. There are no more Luigi-like characters in this scenario that would suddenly appear from nowhere and crack a top ten. No Wario is left. The Ballot vote then falls on who drums up the most concentrated pockets of popularity. Realistically speaking for Smash, the only ways to do it is through social media and message boards like this. There's a reason that the person that compiled the exit poll data chose the specific polling places he did. Because that's where you get an understanding of how the snowballs start rolling into bigger snowballs.

This is why I said in a previous post that having a smaller sample size isn't too bad if it's representative. Isaac doesn't fall out of a top ten and is typically top 3 in those polls. The fact that we're seeing some of these other characters appear as ATs and Echoes is indicative of this. Shovel Knight wouldn't have been in if this wasn't the case. The only sort of character that might be surprising in a larger poll is someone like Simon Belmont who has history or is simply notable. Isaac has always been standing right behind Ridley and K. Rool, that's not just smashboards talking. I am constantly on youtube, gamefaqs, 4chan, reddit browsing this stuff and I was doing the same in 2015 and even from before Brawl. I'll verify it with a notary that Isaac wasn't a nobody back then during speculation.

 

[TempestSurge]

So, my current thinking is that Isaac getting in is entirely dependent on how many newcomers are left. I've been leaning towards 3-4 newcomers left.

If there's 4, I don't think Isaac will get in the base game (maybe still DLC) because I don't see Ultimate breaking from the tradition of a Pokemon newcomer, a NES style retro rep (the ballot is being consulted but not exclusively used), plus I feel there's another 3rd party on the way, and finally there are few characters like Skull Kid and -ugh- Geno that seem to be more talked about/"leaked" than Isaac at the moment. (Geno by all counts would also be a"retro" rep but Smash seems to use mostly NES/pre-NES franchises for the retro slot).

However, if there's 6 newcomers left (making an even 10 total newcomers... echoes don't count) then I feel Isaac has a very good chance. After you get through what I listed above, there's very few other characters besides Isaac that have the ballot/fanbase popularity to fill up the remaining newcomers. Bandana Dee is another big maybe (as a Kirby newcomer is really really wanted in Japan).

I think the real wildcard is how many more 3rd parties we're getting, as those are characters that could represent big franchises and have fan backing to fill up the rest of the newcomers. (Although, it would annoy me to no end to have yet even more 3rd parties get in over the few remaining Nintendo franchises with dedicated fanbases like Isaac).

So I kind of see it going like this:

1) Pokemon
2) Retro
3) Skull Kid
4) Geno/Other 3rd Party
~~
5&6) Isaac/Bandana Dee/Other 3rd Party

Isaac could still get in even if there were hypothetically only four newcomers left. Isaac's spot on the roster would be his own. This is assuming Sakurai picks a number and then limits himself to that number, which doesn't sound like something he'd do. And I don't see why he'd initially just pass up a popular requested character just because he ran out of slots?

Isaac getting in shouldn't be dependent on a traditional checklist that must be filled before any other characters get to have a spot, only the votes he received should matter. And since this roster is more fan based and Sakurai is looking to the ballot, I'm not sure if we'll get weird choices just to have them. Pokemon is the only one I see being an exception since there were likely tons of Pokemon requests in general.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

If Isaac was the next character revealed, how do you think speculation would change? Would it change at all?

Even with the reveal of King K. Rool I definitely felt a shift in the way people were predicting characters.

 

[?!?!?!]

If Isaac was the next character revealed, how do you think speculation would change? Would it change at all?

Even with the reveal of King K. Rool I definitely felt a shift in the way people were predicting characters.

I think it would stay the same. Isaac is a popular ballot choice, so if he were to get confirmed all the focus would be on geno/bandana dee/skull kid/banjo, the remaining top choices

 

[Blue7113]

6 uniques, 6 echoes
Isaac
Bandana Waddle Dee
Geno
Skull Kid
Inceneroar
Banjo and Kazooie

Impa
Dixie Kong
Isabelle
Black Shadow
Felix
Shadow

 

[THE 6r]

God. All this speculation makes every day until December 7th feel like an ETERNITY!! I want to know who is in this video game already!

 

[alguidrag]

God. All this speculation makes every day until December 7th feel like an ETERNITY!! I want to know who is in this video game already!

sadly the only way we could know is going to the future...

 

[TempestSurge]

I think it would stay the same. Isaac is a popular ballot choice, so if he were to get confirmed all the focus would be on geno/bandana dee/skull kid/banjo, the remaining top choices

There's a few leaks that the community follows like the Gardevoir leak that don't have Isaac on it and since Vergeben has yet to actually hint at Isaac, I still feel like some I'm the community will be shocked at Isaac getting in as they don't seem to think he has that popularity or been requested on the levels of the ones you see talked about more frequently like Geno and Banjo. I still feel that Isaac is the underdog when it comes to smash speculation, of course until recently.

 

[Flynn.Scifo]

sadly the only way we could know is going to the future...

We could kidnap or try to seduce Sakurai so he's forced to reveal the roster to us after a few drinks ! ... or not.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If Isaac was the next character revealed, how do you think speculation would change? Would it change at all?

Even with the reveal of King K. Rool I definitely felt a shift in the way people were predicting characters.

There would certainly be a lot of people saying that we can’t definitely assume the ballot is deciding the roster, that Isaac was always an obvious choice, or that he’s an advertising choice for whatever Nintendo decides to do with Golden Sun. Because people on here are lunatics.

 

[ferioku]

A few people pointed this out, not sure if anyone here mentioned it but can you guys notice anything here O.O?

Edit:

Predictions:

Isaac
Skull Kid
Geeno
Bandana Dee


Shadow
Isabelle
Dixie Kong

 

[StormC]

I wouldn't put too much thought into sun/moon theming. (If anything that would hint at a Pokemon SM newcomer...)

The moon is obviously associated with Castlevania, and Smash has often associated the sunset with DKC between Kongo Jungle and Jungle Japes (I think the fact that the K. Rool trailer ends at Jungle Japes implies that's where the trailer is meant to take place). I don't think it means anything more than that.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I mean I do feel like it's interesting that the sun was so obvious in the K. Rool trailer. They really emphasized it.

That said I don't think it means anything.

 

[praline]

Well since everyone is giving predictions, I might as well share what I honestly think will end up being the newcomers. First let me say that I think one of the third party characters is gonna be someone that will be massive levels of hype that a lot of people are not considering. Anyways, I think we have 6 newcomers left and 6 echoes!

Newcomers:
Isaac
Marshal (Rhythm Heaven)
Bandana Dee
Elma
Geno
And the final newcomer revealed
Master Chief

Echoes:
Shadow
Isabelle
Impa
Yarn Yoshi
Dixie Kong
Akuma

Possible DLC
Rex & Pyra
Banjo & Kazooie
Rayman
Gen 8 Pokemon
FE Three Houses Character

Yeah I know Master Chief sounds like a pipe dream if not completely insane but Nintendo and Microsoft have been quite friendly for about two years now. Plus his inclusion would reach out to a possible non-Nintendo fan base who love him which is just more Switch sells.

Honestly if Master Chief got in Smash I’d actually be ok with that.

 

[DraginHikari]

A few people pointed this out, not sure if anyone here mentioned it but can you guys notice anything here O.O?

Edit:

Predictions:

Isaac
Skull Kid
Geeno
Bandana Dee


Shadow
Isabelle
Dixie Kong

That's pretty close to the 'Ridley is in the cloud' thing from years ago lol

 

[alguidrag]

There's a few leaks that the community follows like the Gardevoir leak that don't have Isaac on it and since Vergeben has yet to actually hint at Isaac, I still feel like some I'm the community will be shocked at Isaac getting in as they don't seem to think he has that popularity or been requested on the levels of the ones you see talked about more frequently like Geno and Banjo. I still feel that Isaac is the underdog when it comes to smash speculation, of course until recently.

I still don't get why people are seeing so much this Gardevoir leak, he got Simon wrong, he got debunked by a real dataminer and for the rest he just gone to safe picks. Personaly I see even Neogaf leak was more legit, at least the original version of his leak since he got right Chrom being Roy's echo, thing I never saw in any leak before 8/8 direct.

And Geno is only more frequently talked in the more "youtube" side of Smash community, Isaac is bigger than him in Smash boards and lets be real, if lets say Bandana Dee, Geno, Isaac, Skull Kid and Banjo were revealed on the same time people would be crazy about Geno(because even if he have less suporters than Isaac his suporters are very vocal while Isaac suporters are more Silent like Isaac itself) and Banjo, because its Banjo, but the real casual players would only see like bandana Dee because he is a major Kirby character now, Skull Kid because he is a lot present in actual "recent" nintendo games and Banjo if they knew his story, Isaac and Geno are forgoten outside Smash community for sure

 

[Istry555]

If this happened, it would go completely counter to what Sakurai said in his last interview. He's looking to the ballot for inclusions in this game. On your list, Geno is basically the only one that would refer to for the base people. It would be strange to me that suddenly after saying that, he shows us a Pokemon that wasn't on the ballot, his own Retro character that's not on the ballot, Skull Kid who's far back on the ballot, or even someone who comes from a complete left field.

I suppose these things are possible going from past Smash games...but I would say that if there was a Retro character, it would be Sakurai's pet project this time and we'd have 5 in base instead of 4. He'd do it on the side to make sure it wouldn't take over tons of development time in someone who wasn't asked for. I seriously wouldn't undercut Isaac's chances here. I realize that there's a lot of antsy feelings as we get closer and closer to the final reveals but you can all rest assured that Isaac got his votes in this ballot.

It really all comes down to concentration of votes. If there were a household name character left, it would have changed things for general voting. Let's just say hypothetically Luigi were never in Smash all the way up til now. The ballot comes along and even if there's not a big vocal majority, he would get tons and tons of general votes from people. There are no more Luigi-like characters in this scenario that would suddenly appear from nowhere and crack a top ten. No Wario is left. The Ballot vote then falls on who drums up the most concentrated pockets of popularity. Realistically speaking for Smash, the only ways to do it is through social media and message boards like this. There's a reason that the person that compiled the exit poll data chose the specific polling places he did. Because that's where you get an understanding of how the snowballs start rolling into bigger snowballs.

This is why I said in a previous post that having a smaller sample size isn't too bad if it's representative. Isaac doesn't fall out of a top ten and is typically top 3 in those polls. The fact that we're seeing some of these other characters appear as ATs and Echoes is indicative of this. Shovel Knight wouldn't have been in if this wasn't the case. The only sort of character that might be surprising in a larger poll is someone like Simon Belmont who has history or is simply notable. Isaac has always been standing right behind Ridley and K. Rool, that's not just smashboards talking. I am constantly on youtube, gamefaqs, 4chan, reddit browsing this stuff and I was doing the same in 2015 and even from before Brawl. I'll verify it with a notary that Isaac wasn't a nobody back then during speculation.

I don't really see the roster I posted as going against what Sakurai said at all. He said he's strongly considering the ballot, yes, but that doesn't mean the ballot is exclusively being used to determine the roster. The are a whole bunch of things that go into consideration (some stuff which are even likely outside Sakurai's hands, like if Nintendo wants to push something). There's no reason Sakurai would abandon all his trends from previous games. Even the already included newcomers show he's not 100% just following the ballot; Inkling is popular but was likely chosen before the ballot was ever finished, Simon Belmont is more an iconic character that one that would win the ballot.

Going back to my roster of 8 including Ridley, K. Rool and hypothetically Geno and Skull Kid (Sakurai himself has said that Skull Kid was a popularly requested character in the past) that would be 50% of the roster added because of fan demand. 50% is more than enough to justify him saying that he looked at the ballot with then rounding out the rest of the roster with popular franchises or his own pet characters.

Isaac could still get in even if there were hypothetically only four newcomers left. Isaac's spot on the roster would be his own. This is assuming Sakurai picks a number and then limits himself to that number, which doesn't sound like something he'd do. And I don't see why he'd initially just pass up a popular requested character just because he ran out of slots?

Isaac getting in shouldn't be dependent on a traditional checklist that must be filled before any other characters get to have a spot, only the votes he received should matter. And since this roster is more fan based and Sakurai is looking to the ballot, I'm not sure if we'll get weird choices just to have them. Pokemon is the only one I see being an exception since there were likely tons of Pokemon requests in general.

I agree that Sakurai doesn't start development saying we're only going to add 8 slots, but that also doesn't mean he has unlimited development time and budget. All the previous Smash games have had leftover data from characters that were cut or ultimately not included for whatever reason. Sakurai likely makes a list of all the characters he would like to make, they are worked on based on some determined priority, and then some ultimately aren't finished because they ran out of time or couldn't get them to work or whatever. I'm pretty positive that Isaac definitly made it onto Sakurai's list of characters he would like to include because of how well he should have done on the ballot. However, that doesn't mean Isaac was the highest priority of that list and ultimately made it in the game.

 

[StormC]

Master Chief isn't in this game, lol.

 

[ferioku]

That's pretty close to the 'Ridley is in the cloud' thing from years ago lol

People have been speculating that the moon covers for Skull Kid and the Sun is for Isaac but it's all speculation xDD

 

[XenoWarriorX]

If Master Chief got onto the base before Banjo, i'm gonna lol.

Seriously, Halo hasn't even gotten onto the PC yet. Why would they put him in smash?

I don't really see the roster I posted as going against what Sakurai said at all. He said he's strongly considering the ballot, yes, but that doesn't mean the ballot is exclusively being used to determine the roster. The are a whole bunch of things that go into consideration (some stuff which are even likely outside Sakurai's hands, like if Nintendo wants to push something). There's no reason Sakurai would abandon all his trends from previous games. Even the already included newcomers show he's not 100% just following the ballot; Inkling is popular but was likely chosen before the ballot was ever finished, Simon Belmont is more an iconic character that one that would win the ballot.
.

Ashley was also a popular choice on the list. and even SHE didn't make it in.

Why in all hell would Sakurai give a slot to skull kid when he has about as much going for him in moveset as Ashley???

For right now, the only reason why Skull Kid is a possibility is because Loz18 brought it up. (and we all know how much of a liar he is.)

 

[pholtos]

Me if Isaac ends up not playable:

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Me if Isaac ends up not playable:

Isaac's chances of being releavant:

 

[alguidrag]

So for today we got nothing again right? Any leakers said something? Nintendo got anything for this week?

 

[?!?!?!]

So for today we got nothing again right? Any leakers said something? Nintendo got anything for this week?

Haven't heard about any leaks but Nintendo has the indie presentation on august 28th

 

[jweb23]

Lol. I’m not trying to say Master Chief is in. It’s a pipe dream/insane thought but that’s what speculation is for. I just find it hard to believe Nintendo goes to Microsoft for Banjo and Microsoft doesn’t try to slide Master Chief into the deal.

Also the “console wars” are hilarious to me so the thought of Xbox fanboys bragging to Sony fanboys about their icon getting into a Nintendo game would be amazing lol

 

[TempestSurge]

I don't really see the roster I posted as going against what Sakurai said at all. He said he's strongly considering the ballot, yes, but that doesn't mean the ballot is exclusively being used to determine the roster. The are a whole bunch of things that go into consideration (some stuff which are even likely outside Sakurai's hands, like if Nintendo wants to push something). There's no reason Sakurai would abandon all his trends from previous games. Even the already included newcomers show he's not 100% just following the ballot; Inkling is popular but was likely chosen before the ballot was ever finished, Simon Belmont is more an iconic character that one that would win the ballot.

Going back to my roster of 8 including Ridley, K. Rool and hypothetically Geno and Skull Kid (Sakurai himself has said that Skull Kid was a popularly requested character in the past) that would be 50% of the roster added because of fan demand. 50% is more than enough to justify him saying that he looked at the ballot with then rounding out the rest of the roster with popular franchises or his own pet characters.



I agree that Sakurai doesn't start development saying we're only going to add 8 slots, but that also doesn't mean he has unlimited development time and budget. All the previous Smash games have had leftover data from characters that were cut or ultimately not included for whatever reason. Sakurai likely makes a list of all the characters he would like to make, they are worked on based on some determined priority, and then some ultimately aren't finished because they ran out of time or couldn't get them to work or whatever. I'm pretty positive that Isaac definitly made it onto Sakurai's list of characters he would like to include because of how well he should have done on the ballot. However, that doesn't mean Isaac was the highest priority of that list and ultimately made it in the game.

Since Sakurai said this rendition of the roster was based on the smash ballot. I believe even less that Isaac would lose his spot for one of Sakurai's picks, moreso that those picks were planned in addition to the ballot choices. Of course there's not unlimited development time, not really the sake of my argument since I doubt there were like 100 top choices that Sakurai would have to narrow down. As someone brought out, a million votes could be split between so many random characters that don't really stand much chance of toping the polls. There were likely a few standouts which would come from the concentrated fanbases that have been advocating for their character since Brawl times, so the obvious ones like Ridley, K. Rool, Isaac, Geno, Bandana Dee etc. likely stood out the most amongst the poll and there was probably some veterans mixed in there as well that prompted Sakurai to bring them all back in the first place. If Sakurai's used to working with numbers of 14-18 newcomers, something like say picking 6-8 popular ballot choices for newcomers doesn't sound too crazy to expect.

 

[RumpletrellskiN]

I don't think anyone here fully believes Isaac is playable.

It's more like things are looking really good, unnervingly so.....and there are absolutely a number of things running in Isaacs favour. I don't think it's bias to notice that.

Mark my words Isaac will be playable! People speculate so much but I stand by the hints and the fact that this is our game!

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Personally I find it hard to imagine Sakurai taking the ballot into consideration, seeing the huge support for Banjo & Kazooie, then going to Microsoft to get Master Chief.

It just doesn't add up.

It makes even less sense now that Sakurai has outright stated in an interview that he's using the ballot as a reference.

 

[Nazyrus]

How will you celebrate the day he gets confirmed? will you replay the games or do something different?

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Lol. I’m not trying to say Master Chief is in. It’s a pipe dream/insane thought but that’s what speculation is for. I just find it hard to believe Nintendo goes to Microsoft for Banjo and Microsoft doesn’t try to slide Master Chief into the deal.

Also the “console wars” are hilarious to me so the thought of Xbox fanboys bragging to Sony fanboys about their icon getting into a Nintendo game would be amazing lol

I mean, Nintendo would probably only take Banjo. Halo only seems to be a Xbox exclusive franchise, while Banjo was at least on the N64.

 

[StormC]

Personally I find it hard to imagine Sakurai taking the ballot into consideration, seeing the huge support for Banjo & Kazooie, then going to Microsoft to get Master Chief.

It just doesn't add up.

It makes even less sense now that Sakurai has outright stated in an interview that he's using the ballot as a reference.

I think people have this concept in their head of Sakurai as this Willy Wonka type of character who loves surprising people above all else, especially after Smash 4. But the reality is this game has had a very safe roster up to this point... and it’s already gotten far more hype and anticipation than the last game.

 

[jweb23]

I mean, Nintendo would probably only take Banjo. Halo only seems to be a Xbox exclusive franchise, while Banjo was at least on the N64.

I kinda agree and I say kinda because if I’m remembering correctly, Cloud has never been on a Nintendo game. Granted Final Fantasy has though

 

[StormC]

I kinda agree and I say kinda because if I’m remembering correctly, Cloud has never been on a Nintendo game. Granted Final Fantasy has though

Cloud has been in a couple of spin-offs on Nintendo consoles. Sakurai even said that’s why he was okay with adding him.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I kinda agree and I say kinda because if I’m remembering correctly, Cloud has never been on a Nintendo game. Granted Final Fantasy has though

Cloud has been in a couple of spin-offs on Nintendo consoles. Sakurai even said that’s why he was okay with adding him.

Like, maybe if that HALO DS game came about, i would be saying it differently.

 

[jweb23]

Cloud has been in a couple of spin-offs on Nintendo consoles. Sakurai even said that’s why he was okay with adding him.

Oh I didn’t know that. I didn’t even know Sakurai commented on it. Well that shuts the door on Master Chief speculation lol.

 

[User Name String]

I just found this on Reddit and it looks cool. Have you seen it before?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...cept_for_giygas_as_an_echo_fighter_of_mewtwo/

Edit: Sorry I guess this is getting a bit off topic.

I'm honestly surprised no one has brought up Necrozma as Mewtwo's echo.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I think people have this concept in their head of Sakurai as this Willy Wonka type of character who loves surprising people above all else, especially after Smash 4. But the reality is this game has had a very safe roster up to this point... and it’s already gotten far more hype and anticipation than the last game.

I think it's possible that with theme of "Ultimate" Sakurai may very well be focusing on fan demand. Nothing I've seen so far has really detracted from that. People seem so quick to forget about how insane it is that we already have Ridley and King K. Rool confirmed with over 3 months to go. We've already got four instances of Sakurai telling us that a character got in due to fan demand (Ridley, K. Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus) and I'd imagine Daisy is also part of that group.

The fact alone that Sakurai put the effort into making Ridley work as a playable fighter says a lot in my opinion.

The thing is I don't think the Inklings or Simon Belmont really detract from that direction even though I've seen it mentioned that they somehow take away from the roster being focused on fan demand. The Inklings come from a franchise that has already become beloved, you don't need a ballot to tell you that it's popular and has become a phenomenon in Japan. (though I'm sure they did well enough in the ballot) and Simon Belmont also comes from a beloved franchise and I'm sure Simon still did reasonably well in the ballot even if Snake had more support. Simon Belmont did appear on the exit poll just for the record. (so it's likely he wasn't even close to being a ballot flop)

I kinda agree and I say kinda because if I’m remembering correctly, Cloud has never been on a Nintendo game. Granted Final Fantasy has though

It's worth mentioning that Smash fans had been asking for Cloud. I don't see that many asking for Master Chief on the other hand. Cloud is another good example of Sakurai listening to fan demand.