Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[JaidynReiman]

Obviously K Rool wasn’t the only one. Ridley has been highly requested since he was seen in Melee’s opening. Inklings were also really popular and so was Simon after Mega Man was shown. Finally, in the very same article, Sakurai mentions Dark Samus and Chrom being really popular too.

I guarantee all remaining unique fighters were at the top of the ballot.

I can see maybe one that is more obscure. But that's it, and only a first-party character who did at least decently well on the ballot. Sakurai likes to include at least one surprise fighter.


But this time around I can definitely see us NOT getting one, as well.


Isaac, Bandana Waddle Dee, Banjo (if he managed to secure the rights) are top candidates.

 

[Kalomaze]

Hey guys. Isaac's one of my picks so I decided to make a discord for all isaac fans to communicate and speculate about smash. Maybe we'll even watch future directs in there!

https://discord.gg/mC72fnQ

 

[XenoWarriorX]

So I’m typing this as a way to get one of these theories that has been brewing in my chest for awhile off my chest. I feel like I am on to something when it comes to the newcomers chosen for ultimate, and I have some evidence as of right now. Granted, this information may become outdated if new info in the near future contradicts this theory. But I’m only gathering the info that is available to us right now. Disclaimer, this is just my theory. So don’t take this as 100% proof of the choices that sakurai will do in the near future. You are given the opportunity to critique this.

So right now, I might’ve theorized a way we can determine which character truly has a chance.

- The Ballot

- Amount of material to work with.

I’ll be using this Data as reference to the fighters below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

This might prove inaccurate in the future, but so far, based on what we have so far, I think this is on the road to being accurate to the real ballot.

The fighters that we’ve seen so far might not appear to not give us much on what fighters could also be viable for smash, but I’d also like to use Assist trophies as a reference. And I’ll use the second rule to prove why these fighters could only be adapted to assist trophies.


Shovel Knight – While the support and the character was popular, I do think the moveset and material sakurai had to work with was quite limited. The other DLC characters had a lot more to work with.

Krystal – Only playable at the beginning. Yikes. (besides, the moves that fox uses in adventures is still limited to only cover a few bases, as KMDP has commented in messages. "The thing about Krystal is that all her aerials, tilts, non-forward smashes and throws would have to be unique.")

Waluigi – Only playable in spin-off games, and even then, there isn’t much to work with.

Bomberman – Despite having the “potential” for a moveset, I do think with how the way they were meant to be played, Sakurai didn’t have a lot to work with. He could’ve pulled from the 3D games, but even I think the moveset potential is still pretty limited.

Ashley – Despite being a popular character….she has nothing to work with in terms of moveset.

Midna – Kinda needs Wolf Link….so yeah.

Sukapon – Look up his games. While being obscure, they don’t offer a whole lot.

The only exceptions being Knuckles and Zero, I feel like the reason was that they didn’t exceed the amount of votes to be a playable character. My guess is that the cutoff is near Simon Belmont on the data. While veteran characters are an exception, they also had a base established in the other games in the franchise. So it’s different from creating a new character all together.

Now let’s establish which characters don't have enough material as a character.

Magolor – Check out his final boss. He’s not really offering much except being a boss.

Wonder Red – Despite being the second popular rep of a new franchise, he doesn’t really offer much. His game has him colaberating with 100 other people. Now I could see him use Viewtful Joe’s moveset, but at that point…He would be a clone of VJ. Lol. Idk if kamiya or capcom would like that.

(I'll mention Skull Kid real quick. Even though he's a popular choice right now, as a fighter...i'm stumped on what they can do to make him a fighter. There isn't much material in Majora's Mask.)

So here is the remaining characters. (Not including ones below Simon for now and echo fighters.)

Isaac

Banjo

Bandanna Dee

Paper Mario

Shantae

Geno

Rayman

Sora (apparently, my assumption of disney being hard to work with was untrue. However, Sora would probably have to exclude the disnet characters, because they sure as hell arent disney characters.)

Custom Robo

Jibanyan (?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I can’t determine a cutoff point, I’m not sure which echos are likely.

(What do you all think?)

(Trashing it.)

 

[EarlTamm]

So I’m typing this as a way to get one of these theories that has been brewing in my chest for awhile off my chest. I feel like I am on to something when it comes to the newcomers chosen for ultimate, and I have some evidence as of right now. Granted, this information may become outdated if new info in the near future contradicts this theory. But I’m only gathering the info that is available to us right now. Disclaimer, this is just my theory. So don’t take this as 100% proof of the choices that sakurai will do in the near future. You are given the opportunity to critique this.

So right now, I might’ve theorized a way we can determine which character truly has a chance.

- The Ballot

- Amount of material to work with.

I’ll be using this Data as reference to the fighters below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

This might prove inaccurate in the future, but so far, based on what we have so far, I think this is on the road to being accurate to the real ballot.

The fighters that we’ve seen so far might not appear to not give us much on what fighters could also be viable for smash, but I’d also like to use Assist trophies as a reference. And I’ll use the second rule to prove why these fighters could only be adapted to assist trophies.


Shovel Knight – While the support and the character was popular, I do think the moveset and material sakurai had to work with was quite limited. The other DLC characters had a lot more to work with.

Krystal – Only playable at the beginning. Yikes. (besides, the moves that fox uses in adventures is still limited to only cover a few bases, as KMDP has commented in messages. )

Waluigi – Only playable in spin-off games, and even then, there isn’t much to work with.

Bomberman – Despite having the “potential” for a moveset, I do think with how the way they were meant to be played, Sakurai didn’t have a lot to work with. He could’ve pulled from the 3D games, but even I think the moveset potential is still pretty limited.

Ashley – Despite being a popular character….she has nothing to work with in terms of moveset.

Midna – Kinda needs Wolf Link….so yeah.

Sukapon – Look up his games. While being obscure, they don’t offer a whole lot.

The only exceptions being Knuckles and Zero, I feel like the reason was that they didn’t exceed the amount of votes to be a playable character. My guess is that the cutoff is near Simon Belmont on the data. While veteran characters are an exception, they also had a base established in the other games in the franchise. So it’s different from creating a new character all together.

Now let’s establish which characters don't have enough material as a character.

So let me say that the first 6 are okay for now.

Magolor – Check out his final boss. He’s not really offering much except being a boss.

Wonder Red – Despite being the second popular rep of a new franchise, he doesn’t really offer much. His game has him colaberating with 100 other people. Now I could see him use Viewtful Joe’s moveset, but at that point…He would be a clone of VJ. Lol. Idk if kamiya or capcom would like that.

Jibyanyan – Works better as a boss. Despite the Turn Based mechanics of YW being to his benefits, it’s hard to imagine a spirit shaped like him being a character. My guess is boss or assist trophy.

So here is the remaining characters. (Not including ones below Simon for now and echo fighters.)

Isaac

Banjo

Bandanna Dee

Paper Mario

Shantae

Geno

Rayman

Sora ( Disney makes him less likely mostly because he would VERY expensive to represent.)

Custom Robo

(That’s also why I don’t think SK is likely. He doesn’t offer much to work with. )

Since I can’t determine a cutoff point, I’m not sure which echos are likely.

(What do you all think?)

I agree with this. While popularity is a factor, what the character offers to the table is still a major thing to Sakurai. We saw something similar when Chrom was passed up for Robin. And the character offering up potential goes double for third parties, as usually third parties have there own little things that make them stand out besides that third party status.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I agree with this. While popularity is a factor, what the character offers to the table is still a major thing to Sakurai. We saw something similar when Chrom was passed up for Robin. And the character offering up potential goes double for third parties, as usually third parties have there own little things that make them stand out besides that third party status.

People think that since Villiger was made into a fighter, then just about EVERYONE can be made into a fighter.

Complete ignorance. Sakurai doesn't have the ability to make ANYONE a fighter.

 

[Lonodel]

i'

So I’m typing this as a way to get one of these theories that has been brewing in my chest for awhile off my chest. I feel like I am on to something when it comes to the newcomers chosen for ultimate, and I have some evidence as of right now. Granted, this information may become outdated if new info in the near future contradicts this theory. But I’m only gathering the info that is available to us right now. Disclaimer, this is just my theory. So don’t take this as 100% proof of the choices that sakurai will do in the near future. You are given the opportunity to critique this.

So right now, I might’ve theorized a way we can determine which character truly has a chance.

- The Ballot

- Amount of material to work with.

I’ll be using this Data as reference to the fighters below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

This might prove inaccurate in the future, but so far, based on what we have so far, I think this is on the road to being accurate to the real ballot.

The fighters that we’ve seen so far might not appear to not give us much on what fighters could also be viable for smash, but I’d also like to use Assist trophies as a reference. And I’ll use the second rule to prove why these fighters could only be adapted to assist trophies.


Shovel Knight – While the support and the character was popular, I do think the moveset and material sakurai had to work with was quite limited. The other DLC characters had a lot more to work with.

Krystal – Only playable at the beginning. Yikes. (besides, the moves that fox uses in adventures is still limited to only cover a few bases, as KMDP has commented in messages. "The thing about Krystal is that all her aerials, tilts, non-forward smashes and throws would have to be unique.")
Waluigi – Only playable in spin-off games, and even then, there isn’t much to work with.

Bomberman – Despite having the “potential” for a moveset, I do think with how the way they were meant to be played, Sakurai didn’t have a lot to work with. He could’ve pulled from the 3D games, but even I think the moveset potential is still pretty limited.

Ashley – Despite being a popular character….she has nothing to work with in terms of moveset.

Midna – Kinda needs Wolf Link….so yeah.

Sukapon – Look up his games. While being obscure, they don’t offer a whole lot.

The only exceptions being Knuckles and Zero, I feel like the reason was that they didn’t exceed the amount of votes to be a playable character. My guess is that the cutoff is near Simon Belmont on the data. While veteran characters are an exception, they also had a base established in the other games in the franchise. So it’s different from creating a new character all together.

Now let’s establish which characters don't have enough material as a character.

Magolor – Check out his final boss. He’s not really offering much except being a boss.

Wonder Red – Despite being the second popular rep of a new franchise, he doesn’t really offer much. His game has him colaberating with 100 other people. Now I could see him use Viewtful Joe’s moveset, but at that point…He would be a clone of VJ. Lol. Idk if kamiya or capcom would like that.

Jibyanyan – Works better as a boss. Despite the Turn Based mechanics of YW being to his benefits, it’s hard to imagine a spirit shaped like him being a character. My guess is boss or assist trophy.

(I'll mention Skull Kid real quick. Even though he's a popular choice right now, as a fighter...i'm stumped on what they can do to make him a fighter. There isn't much material in Majora's Mask.)

So here is the remaining characters. (Not including ones below Simon for now and echo fighters.)

Isaac

Banjo

Bandanna Dee

Paper Mario

Shantae

Geno

Rayman

Sora ( Disney makes him less likely mostly because he would VERY expensive to represent.)

Custom Robo

Since I can’t determine a cutoff point, I’m not sure which echos are likely.

(What do you all think?)

I don't see any reason to argue with this, I would agree that as far as the ballot is concerned these are the most likely fighters, the only one I don't see too much of is rayman but it's possible i'm just not looking for him. I think it'd be really cool to see paper mario get a moveset(TTYD is one of the best gamecube games) but imo he's less likely than Isaac, Shantae and Robo also seem less likely just off of what I've seen, I saw people get into about her vs shovel knight as far as validity goes and it could go either way. Geno Bandana Dee Banjo & Kazooie, and Isaac seem like the big four from the ballot now with Sora being a pipe dream. Here's hoping Sakurai just reveals Isaac next XD

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I agree with this. While popularity is a factor, what the character offers to the table is still a major thing to Sakurai. We saw something similar when Chrom was passed up for Robin. And the character offering up potential goes double for third parties, as usually third parties have there own little things that make them stand out besides that third party status.

Agreed. While it's possible that any character could be given mostly creative liberties with a moveset if they were popular enough, Bomberman seemingly proves that Sakurai doesn't want to only have one or two canon attributes to work with. Otherwise, they're perfect AT material. Just look at how closely K. Rool follows his boss fight source material with the Blunderbuss, crown toss, Blast-O-Matic, and helicopter backpack. Look at how Ridley flings fireballs and grabs people in mid-air like in his own fights. Look at how many Castlevania items Simon and Richter have in their arsenals. Look at how many of Splatoon's weapons are used in Inkling's moveset.

Sakurai clearly wants a lot to work with to make them stand out with their own unique qualities that hardcore fans will recognize. After all, he's making this game for all the people that voted passionately for their character, and what better way to amp up the fanservice than with references like those? That plays into Isaac's favor with how much Psynergy he has to offer.

 

[EarlTamm]

People think that since Villiger was made into a fighter, then just about EVERYONE can be made into a fighter.

Complete ignorance. Sakurai doesn't have the ability to make ANYONE a fighter.

It's not only that, but the character should be unique. It does not matter if Sakurai can make a moveset for a character, if that moveset is add's nothing new and is kind of dull, we have a problem. Any character Sakurai has made out of nearly nothing has been unique in some way from Falcon to the Duck Hunt Dog.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I don't see any reason to argue with this, I would agree that as far as the ballot is concerned these are the most likely fighters, the only one I don't see too much of is rayman but it's possible i'm just not looking for him. I think it'd be really cool to see paper mario get a moveset(TTYD is one of the best gamecube games) but imo he's less likely than Isaac, Shantae and Robo also seem less likely just off of what I've seen, I saw people get into about her vs shovel knight as far as validity goes and it could go either way. Geno Bandana Dee Banjo & Kazooie, and Isaac seem like the big four from the ballot now with Sora being a pipe dream. Here's hoping Sakurai just reveals Isaac next XD

I mean, yeah. Paper Mario, Ray, and shantae seem less likely because they are lower.

However, they still have a chance. (At least i hope.....Ray at least has a lot of material to work with. :>)

Agreed. While it's possible that any character could be given mostly creative liberties with a moveset if they were popular enough, Bomberman seemingly proves that Sakurai doesn't want to only have one or two canon attributes to work with. Otherwise, they're perfect AT material. Just look at how closely K. Rool follows his boss fight source material with the Blunderbuss, crown toss, Blast-O-Matic, and helicopter backpack. Look at how Ridley flings fireballs and grabs people in mid-air like in his own fights. Look at how many Castlevania items Simon and Richter have in their arsenals. Look at how many of Splatoon's weapons are used in Inkling's moveset.

Sakurai clearly wants a lot to work with to make them stand out with their own unique qualities that hardcore fans will recognize. After all, he's making this game for all the people that voted passionately for their character, and what better way to amp up the fanservice than with references like those? That plays into Isaac's favor with how much Psynergy he has to offer.

One way of telling that even he doesn't seem to have the energy to create original moves for characters is Simon. He literally took moves from Richter, and that made his moveset complete.

I think our idea of Sakurai creating original moves for characters this time around should be toned down quite a bit.

It's not only that, but the character should unique. It does not matter if Sakurai can make a moveset for a character, if that moveset is add's nothing new and is kind of dull, we have a problem. Any character Sakurai has made out of nearly nothing has been unique in some way from Falcon to the Duck Hunt Dog.

That's a good point. However, creating original movesets for characters (if they don't have much to work) depends on how much of a priority they are.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really understand how Jibanyan, of all characters, could be a boss. While you can obviously look at the main Yo-Kai Watch games as being turn-based (though that's not even a correct term for it, as the characters will act independently and your involvement is just to get them back into fighting form by eliminating "inspirits", or negative ailments, and letting them use their "Soultimate" moves). The Busters/Blasters spin-off games do allow you more freedom to understand Jibanyan's potential moves considering you play AS him. And, unless you're looking at a "serious" take on him like Reubus J (or even Shadowside Jibanyan, though let's be honest; that series has been a total flop and will wind up being a "throwing the baby out with the bath water" deal), Jibanyan is by and large a joke character. He's got powerful moves, but he's also depicted as lazy, eats nothing but chocolate bars, fawns obsessively over a cat-themed pop idol group, and always gets decimated by trucks when he tries to fight them. You generally want legitimately frightening characters as bosses. A massive metal monstrosity that's operated by a sociopath? That's a boss. The Lord of Darkness himself? That's a boss. A goofy cat creature who has misadventures? That's not a boss.

As I previously stated, some of these characters would have benefitted if they were considered at different points of time. In Jibanyan's case, had the series been considered at the beginning of 2015, his odds would have been very good as Yo-Kai Watch was still at the peak of popularity in Japan. Any time after that and the odds of him getting in even as a regular trophy diminish exponentially.

So, before anyone disproves Jibanyan, one would have to look at the popularity aspect in Japan that would determine if he even appears in the game.

(And I say that as a big OG Yo-Kai Watch nerd)

 

[EarlTamm]

That's a good point. However, creating original movesets for characters (if they don't have much to work) depends on how much of a priority they are.

Yeah, I doubt we will be seeing any original moves any time soon. Kinda a byproduct of the early years of Smash. There is one more thing I want to add, and that I think a character with more games will naturally lead to better chances. It gives more to work with when it comes to a moveset, animations, design, being more than a possible one shot wonder, etc. While it is not exactly a perfect theory, there are a lot of characters disconfirmed above that only really have one or two games to there name and suffer because of the lack of exposure.

 

[KMDP]

I'll repost what I posted in PMs with XenoWarriorX .

"I get the feeling Sakurai wants to include as many characters as is feasible in as easy a way as possible."

By this I mean, unless a character is highly requested (i.e. Ridley; hopefully Isaac), Sakurai might want to pull as much as possible from their home games, if they require a lot of Smash original stuff to make work (e.g. Krystal, Ashley) then they become Assist Trophies and Sakurai moves on.

 

[Dixie Kong]

I'll repost what I posted in PMs with XenoWarriorX .

"I get the feeling Sakurai wants to include as many characters as is feasible in as easy a way as possible."

By this I mean, unless a character is highly requested (i.e. Ridley; hopefully Isaac), Sakurai might want to pull as much as possible from their home games, if they require a lot of Smash original stuff to make work (e.g. Krystal, Ashley) then they become Assist Trophies and Sakurai moves on.

Good thinking! Who would be most likely than?

 

[EarlTamm]

I'll repost what I posted in PMs with XenoWarriorX .

"I get the feeling Sakurai wants to include as many characters as is feasible in as easy a way as possible."

By this I mean, unless a character is highly requested (i.e. Ridley; hopefully Isaac), Sakurai might want to pull as much as possible from their home games, if they require a lot of Smash original stuff to make work (e.g. Krystal, Ashley) then they become Assist Trophies and Sakurai moves on.

So pretty much the character must either have a moveset that practically makes itself while being something new to the Smash series, or the character just has a lot of material to work with when it comes to making there moves.

 

[KMDP]

Good thinking! Who would be most likely than?

Well, I obviously can't answer that.

So pretty much the character must either have a moveset that practically makes itself while being something new to the Smash series, or the character just has a lot of material to work with when it comes to making there moves.

Pretty much my thinking, yeah.

 

[DogManStar]

I'm definitely willing to believe that moveset potential is very important this time, in addition to pure fan demand. Why else would Sakurai ignore massive requests like Waluigi? I agree, I think he might be looking for characters that give him a lot of material to work with.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I don't really understand how Jibanyan, of all characters, could be a boss. While you can obviously look at the main Yo-Kai Watch games as being turn-based (though that's not even a correct term for it, as the characters will act independently and your involvement is just to get them back into fighting form by eliminating "inspirits", or negative ailments, and letting them use their "Soultimate" moves). The Busters/Blasters spin-off games do allow you more freedom to understand Jibanyan's potential moves considering you play AS him. And, unless you're looking at a "serious" take on him like Reubus J (or even Shadowside Jibanyan, though let's be honest; that series has been a total flop and will wind up being a "throwing the baby out with the bath water" deal), Jibanyan is by and large a joke character. He's got powerful moves, but he's also depicted as lazy, eats nothing but chocolate bars, fawns obsessively over a cat-themed pop idol group, and always gets decimated by trucks when he tries to fight them. You generally want legitimately frightening characters as bosses. A massive metal monstrosity that's operated by a sociopath? That's a boss. The Lord of Darkness himself? That's a boss. A goofy cat creature who has misadventures? That's not a boss.

As I previously stated, some of these characters would have benefitted if they were considered at different points of time. In Jibanyan's case, had the series been considered at the beginning of 2015, his odds would have been very good as Yo-Kai Watch was still at the peak of popularity in Japan. Any time after that and the odds of him getting in even as a regular trophy diminish exponentially.

So, before anyone disproves Jibanyan, one would have to look at the popularity aspect in Japan that would determine if he even appears in the game.

(And I say that as a big OG Yo-Kai Watch nerd)

I do apoligize, as i did not have much knowledge on the series. (And that's coming from a SMT fan :V)

as i look more at the cat-like design, i'm on the fence about if he could be a AT or a character. I dunno. But i will remove him. Again, i apologize.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So I’m typing this as a way to get one of these theories that has been brewing in my chest for awhile off my chest. I feel like I am on to something when it comes to the newcomers chosen for ultimate, and I have some evidence as of right now. Granted, this information may become outdated if new info in the near future contradicts this theory. But I’m only gathering the info that is available to us right now. Disclaimer, this is just my theory. So don’t take this as 100% proof of the choices that sakurai will do in the near future. You are given the opportunity to critique this.

So right now, I might’ve theorized a way we can determine which character truly has a chance.

- The Ballot

- Amount of material to work with.

I’ll be using this Data as reference to the fighters below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

This might prove inaccurate in the future, but so far, based on what we have so far, I think this is on the road to being accurate to the real ballot.

The fighters that we’ve seen so far might not appear to not give us much on what fighters could also be viable for smash, but I’d also like to use Assist trophies as a reference. And I’ll use the second rule to prove why these fighters could only be adapted to assist trophies.


Shovel Knight – While the support and the character was popular, I do think the moveset and material sakurai had to work with was quite limited. The other DLC characters had a lot more to work with.

Krystal – Only playable at the beginning. Yikes. (besides, the moves that fox uses in adventures is still limited to only cover a few bases, as KMDP has commented in messages. "The thing about Krystal is that all her aerials, tilts, non-forward smashes and throws would have to be unique.")

Waluigi – Only playable in spin-off games, and even then, there isn’t much to work with.

Bomberman – Despite having the “potential” for a moveset, I do think with how the way they were meant to be played, Sakurai didn’t have a lot to work with. He could’ve pulled from the 3D games, but even I think the moveset potential is still pretty limited.

Ashley – Despite being a popular character….she has nothing to work with in terms of moveset.

Midna – Kinda needs Wolf Link….so yeah.

Sukapon – Look up his games. While being obscure, they don’t offer a whole lot.

The only exceptions being Knuckles and Zero, I feel like the reason was that they didn’t exceed the amount of votes to be a playable character. My guess is that the cutoff is near Simon Belmont on the data. While veteran characters are an exception, they also had a base established in the other games in the franchise. So it’s different from creating a new character all together.

Now let’s establish which characters don't have enough material as a character.

Magolor – Check out his final boss. He’s not really offering much except being a boss.

Wonder Red – Despite being the second popular rep of a new franchise, he doesn’t really offer much. His game has him colaberating with 100 other people. Now I could see him use Viewtful Joe’s moveset, but at that point…He would be a clone of VJ. Lol. Idk if kamiya or capcom would like that.

Jibyanyan – Works better as a boss. Despite the Turn Based mechanics of YW being to his benefits, it’s hard to imagine a spirit shaped like him being a character. My guess is boss or assist trophy.

(I'll mention Skull Kid real quick. Even though he's a popular choice right now, as a fighter...i'm stumped on what they can do to make him a fighter. There isn't much material in Majora's Mask.)

So here is the remaining characters. (Not including ones below Simon for now and echo fighters.)

Isaac

Banjo

Bandanna Dee

Paper Mario

Shantae

Geno

Rayman

Sora ( Disney makes him less likely mostly because he would VERY expensive to represent.)

Custom Robo


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I can’t determine a cutoff point, I’m not sure which echos are likely.

(What do you all think?)

I respectfully disagree with most of what you said.

Shovel Knight and Bomberman might be one-trick ponies, but so is Sonic as implemented, and both are playable characters so they have material to pull from.

Waluigi, Krystal and Ashley might not have immediately obvious moveset potential, but it still doesn’t take a lot of thinking to come up with places to get inspiration from (sports games, SF Adventure and generic magic). It would require no more creativity than, say, Peach’s.

Midna certainly doesn’t need Wolf Link. See: her Assist Trophy, Hyrule Warriors. Likewise, Skull Kid’s appearances in three titles plus Hyrule Warriors provide quite a lot of moveset potential.

Sukapon is the most baffling to me. He’s a fighting game character with a full moveset, a grappler, has the ability to throw his own head, and his game has dozens of characters with the same body structure he could borrow moves from if needed.

Jibanyan wouldn’t be hard to craft a moveset for. At least, not any more than any Pokémon.

Wonder Red, I guess his attacks might be too big? Scaling wouldn’t be an issue though (Sakurai even made fun of how nothing in Smash is to scale in a recent interview), and even if it was, Bayonetta proves big attacks can work.

Magolor, I guess I can’t argue since I never got to his fight in RtDL so I don’t know what his potential is. However, it is heavily rumored he’ll be added as a Dream Friend to Kirby Star Allies, in which case he’ll have a moveset to draw from.

 

[Deleted member]

I do apoligize, as i did not have much knowledge on the series. (And that's coming from a SMT fan :V)

as i look more at the cat-like design, i'm on the fence about if he could be a AT or a character. I dunno. But i will remove him. Again, i apologize.

Hey, I admitted myself I know squat about Michiah, so I'm happy to help out a bit.

As an Assist Trophy, he'd utilize his trademark Paws of Fury move, which is a parody of many a Fist of the North Star attacks, but if he was playable, he'd be a lightweight with very easy knockback (a callback to the trucks I mentioned) that's played for laughs.

 

[tveye]

(I'll mention Skull Kid real quick. Even though he's a popular choice right now, as a fighter...i'm stumped on what they can do to make him a fighter. There isn't much material in Majora's Mask.)

I only have one thing to say to that. Hyrule Warriors.
https://youtu.be/I34TFORD7OA

Sora ( Disney makes him less likely mostly because he would VERY expensive to represent.)

Disney has said that they would be perfectly fine with Sora in Smash. He's not a high commodity to them. They did say though that Sakurai would need to ask Nomura for permission and they would automatically give the "okay". Seeing how Nomura and Sakurai are pals, this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Nazyrus]

Disney has said that they would be perfectly fine with Sora in Smash. He's not a high commodity to them. They did say though that Sakurai would need to ask Nomura for permission and they would automatically give the "okay". Seeing how Nomura and Sakurai are pals, this shouldn't be an issue.

That + the fact KH3 is coming out… what… one month later after Smash? They are marketing KH like CRAZY + so many general disney games on Nintendo consoles before + actual KH games on Nintendo consoles in the past as well… Yeah, there really isn't that huge of a wall of an obstacle for Sora to get in, it's just a matter of making the decision at this point between Sakurai, Disney and Nomura who already are good at working together. Nomura would not just give permission only, but also greatly recommend Sakurai since he handled Cloud so well.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I respectfully disagree with most of what you said.

Shovel Knight and Bomberman might be one-trick ponies, but so is Sonic as implemented, and both are playable characters so they have material to pull from.

Waluigi, Krystal and Ashley might not have immediately obvious moveset potential, but it still doesn’t take a lot of thinking to come up with places to get inspiration from (sports games, SF Adventure and generic magic). It would require no more creativity than, say, Peach’s.

Midna certainly doesn’t need Wolf Link. See: her Assist Trophy, Hyrule Warriors. Likewise, Skull Kid’s appearances in three titles plus Hyrule Warriors provide quite a lot of moveset potential.

Sukapon is the most baffling to me. He’s a fighting game character with a full moveset, a grappler, has the ability to throw his own head, and his game has dozens of characters with the same body structure he could borrow moves from if needed.

Jibanyan wouldn’t be hard to craft a moveset for. At least, not any more than any Pokémon.

Wonder Red, I guess his attacks might be too big? Scaling wouldn’t be an issue though (Sakurai even made fun of how nothing in Smash is to scale in a recent interview), and even if it was, Bayonetta proves big attacks can work.

Magolor, I guess I can’t argue since I never got to his fight in RtDL so I don’t know what his potential is. However, it is heavily rumored he’ll be added as a Dream Friend to Kirby Star Allies, in which case he’ll have a moveset to draw from.

And i respectfully disagree with your assessments.

Shovel Knight and Bomberman's movesets are quite limited compared to Sonic when he has both a plethora of moves from both 2d and 3d games to chose from. So that comparison seems shaky.


Waluigi, Krystal, and Ashley certainly DO need more to work with. Sakurai, as shown before, would rather take moves from richter, and put it into simon. Why would you think that those 3 would get any original moves over SIMON BELMONT? Ridley is the only one so far to get that treatment.

And as for Midna...No. Even with the assist trophy, she doesn't cover all of the moves that she would need to become a fighter.

Hyrule Warriors. Likewise, Skull Kid’s appearances in three titles plus Hyrule Warriors provide quite a lot of moveset potential.

I only have one thing to say to that. Hyrule Warriors.
https://youtu.be/I34TFORD7OA

I'm guessing by that logic, all zelda characters should be inspired by Hyrule warriors. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sukapon...doesn't even seem like the mechanics of his game even works with a game like smash. Kicks, throws, but that's it. (Physics are also wonky...jeez.)

And yeah, i took Jibanyan out.

Most of Wonder Red's "attacks" are final smash worthy. "scaling" down isn't exactly an easy task with WR.

 

[alguidrag]

I'm late but

For Ashley, i Never played Wario ware games but since the litle I know is that they're kind minigame collections, the only thing that could pull for her is use things from many diferent minigames

For Krystal... just make her another Fox based XD we alredy have 2 of those.

Waluigi, he is just a meme, like 10000 people claim Waluigi to smash but only like 5000 really want him, the rest is just for the meme.

Skull kid if they pull moveset from Hyrule Warriors I WANT MY LINKLE AS A LINK ECHO!

Shovel have moveset enough

Bomberman... I'm not sure but yeah... that would be hard

Midna still uses wolfs in Hyrule Warriors right? If they would use her they should use the "twilight mirror" based of her.

Sora can get IF we get KH3 on Switch, and on Switch first!

Jibanyan AT

For Magolor, personaly I prefer Marx or Galacta Knight if we were to get a Kirby Villain

I can see Shantae coming, but her biggest chance of reveal was the Nindie Direct

Paper Mario... he is cool BUT if I see anyone that complain about FE char be happy about him... I will get my sword because we have a LOT of Mario character and they don't have the "echo thing" as excuse, and I know that "Nintendo's face" but is a HUGE hypocrisy want another Mario(not Mario character, another Mario) while complaining ABOUT THE MOST UNIQUE ECHO BECAUSE C'MON CHROM IS MORE UNIQUE THAN SOME SEMI-CLONES.

thats all for mine "good luck buddy" next I will say something about the ones I think is probable and I want

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Until i see the day that Hyrule Warriors is used as a main, singular component of inspiration by Mr. Sakurai, i will most definitely not consider it a possibility.


Good day.

 

[N3ON]

I've always stood by the position that unless you're immobile or lacking any appendages, with enough creativity you could have a unique moveset. I certainly don't think any of those aforementioned characters challenge that, they'd all be quite feasible. I suspect you'd find working movesets for each within their respective threads.

 

[DogManStar]

I've always stood by the position that unless you're immobile or lacking any appendages, with enough creativity you could have a unique moveset. I certainly don't think any of those aforementioned characters challenge that, they'd all be quite feasible. I suspect you'd find working movesets for each within their respective threads.

Agreed, I totally think Sakurai could make any of those characters work. We were just saying that he might be going for characters with the most potential to work with.

 

[EarlTamm]

I've always stood by the position that unless you're immobile or lacking any appendages, with enough creativity you could have a unique moveset. I certainly don't think any of those aforementioned characters challenge that, they'd all be quite feasible. I suspect you'd find working movesets for each within their respective threads.

True, but how much effort is Sakurai willing to go through this time? I do think Sakurai is trying to find the path of least resistance so he can make as many characters as possible.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I've always stood by the position that unless you're immobile or lacking any appendages, with enough creativity you could have a unique moveset. I certainly don't think any of those aforementioned characters challenge that, they'd all be quite feasible. I suspect you'd find working movesets for each within their respective threads.

i mean, yeah. Of course anyone can have a moveset.

My argument is that sakurai might not be wanting to deal with making original movesets for characters that don't have much to work with.

Otherwise, why would he turn them into assist trophies if people really wanted them?

 

[alguidrag]

He could, people can make movesets even for Nintendo-Labo, or for a door, moveset can be made for everything, but if most moveset we can see the characters doing something like that in their games

 

[N3ON]

True, but how much effort is Sakurai willing to go through this time? I do think Sakurai is trying to find the path of least resistance so he can make as many characters as possible.

I don't think any of those characters were omitted due to moveset challenges.

I also really doubt he's doing the path of least resistance with characters like Ridley included, a character he's raised feasibility issues with for a decade. Not to mention we've more third-parties than ever before, and those are no cakewalk to work with. The path seems dictated by the fans, not suddenly making easy choices. That's not really how Sakurai operates.

i mean, yeah. Of course anyone can have a moveset.

My argument is that sakurai might not be wanting to deal with making original movesets for characters that don't have much to work with.

Otherwise, why would he turn them into assist trophies if people really wanted them?

Again, that's not really how Sakurai works. Last time around what seemed like half the newcomers were unexpected or creative implementations. I don't buy the argument that Sakurai has turned lazy when you look at the product we're actually being delivered.

Why would he turn them into Assist Trophies? Because not every fan favourite can become playable, especially in a roster with even more limited positions for newcomers.

 

[SonicLink125]

For Krystal... just make her another Fox based XD we alredy have 2 of those.

This is not direct to you, but just in general.

For ten years, I still can't believe it triggers me that people still think Wolf is a Fox clone when that is so far from the truth. I'm not a Star Fox guy and I only ever played Star Fox 64 once many years ago. Yet, Wolf became my 3rd favorite main to use (behind Link and Sonic) and I can tell you he is NOT a clone of Fox.

Sure, he uses a blaster, a shield, and a dash attack like Fox, but they are so different from Fox's special moves that if you compare them, you'll know that Wolf's blaster shoots one big shot and has a knife attached to it to damage opponents close range, his dash attack goes diagonal and if sweet spotted from his shoulder, he can spike opponents in contact. His recovery, while crap to maneuver, is wind based, not fire.

But the best way to show how different Wolf is from Fox is his normal attacks. He uses his claws, Fox uses his feet. His Nair spins, Fox's Nair is a kick. I can go on forever, but this is an Isaac thread. So, triggered moment over...for now.

 

[alguidrag]

I doubt Sakurai would got lazy, but I prefer to think that alredy made Movesets are better than just made ones for smash

This is not direct to you, but just in general.

For ten years, I still can't believe it triggers me that people still think Wolf is a Fox clone when that is so far from the truth. I'm not a Star Fox guy and I only ever played Star Fox 64 once many years ago. Yet, Wolf became my 3rd favorite main to use (behind Link and Sonic) and I can tell you he is NOT a clone of Fox.

Sure, he uses a blaster, a shield, and a dash attack like Fox, but they are so different from Fox's special moves that if you compare them, you'll know that Wolf's blaster shoots one big shot and has a knife attached to it to damage opponents close range, his dash attack goes diagonal and if sweet spotted from his shoulder, he can spike opponents in contact. His recovery, while crap to maneuver, is wind based, not fire.

But the best way to show how different Wolf is from Fox is his normal attacks. He uses his claws, Fox uses his feet. His Nair spins, Fox's Nair is a kick. I can go on forever, but this is an Isaac thread. So, triggered moment over...for now.

Sorry, I didn't mean Fox clone, but Fox based, like Luigi have Mario based moves, Luigi is based on Mario moveset, like Wolf, he was made in Fox moveset but changed, I would compare to Roy's declone in Smash 4 but wolf still more unique, BUT still based on Fox

 

[Teeb147]

So I’m typing this as a way to get one of these theories that has been brewing in my chest for awhile off my chest. I feel like I am on to something when it comes to the newcomers chosen for ultimate, and I have some evidence as of right now. Granted, this information may become outdated if new info in the near future contradicts this theory. But I’m only gathering the info that is available to us right now. Disclaimer, this is just my theory. So don’t take this as 100% proof of the choices that sakurai will do in the near future. You are given the opportunity to critique this.

So right now, I might’ve theorized a way we can determine which character truly has a chance.

- The Ballot

- Amount of material to work with.

I’ll be using this Data as reference to the fighters below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

This might prove inaccurate in the future, but so far, based on what we have so far, I think this is on the road to being accurate to the real ballot.

The fighters that we’ve seen so far might not appear to not give us much on what fighters could also be viable for smash, but I’d also like to use Assist trophies as a reference. And I’ll use the second rule to prove why these fighters could only be adapted to assist trophies.


Shovel Knight – While the support and the character was popular, I do think the moveset and material sakurai had to work with was quite limited. The other DLC characters had a lot more to work with.

Krystal – Only playable at the beginning. Yikes. (besides, the moves that fox uses in adventures is still limited to only cover a few bases, as KMDP has commented in messages. "The thing about Krystal is that all her aerials, tilts, non-forward smashes and throws would have to be unique.")

Waluigi – Only playable in spin-off games, and even then, there isn’t much to work with.

Bomberman – Despite having the “potential” for a moveset, I do think with how the way they were meant to be played, Sakurai didn’t have a lot to work with. He could’ve pulled from the 3D games, but even I think the moveset potential is still pretty limited.

Ashley – Despite being a popular character….she has nothing to work with in terms of moveset.

Midna – Kinda needs Wolf Link….so yeah.

Sukapon – Look up his games. While being obscure, they don’t offer a whole lot.

The only exceptions being Knuckles and Zero, I feel like the reason was that they didn’t exceed the amount of votes to be a playable character. My guess is that the cutoff is near Simon Belmont on the data. While veteran characters are an exception, they also had a base established in the other games in the franchise. So it’s different from creating a new character all together.

Now let’s establish which characters don't have enough material as a character.

Magolor – Check out his final boss. He’s not really offering much except being a boss.

Wonder Red – Despite being the second popular rep of a new franchise, he doesn’t really offer much. His game has him colaberating with 100 other people. Now I could see him use Viewtful Joe’s moveset, but at that point…He would be a clone of VJ. Lol. Idk if kamiya or capcom would like that.

(I'll mention Skull Kid real quick. Even though he's a popular choice right now, as a fighter...i'm stumped on what they can do to make him a fighter. There isn't much material in Majora's Mask.)

So here is the remaining characters. (Not including ones below Simon for now and echo fighters.)

Isaac

Banjo

Bandanna Dee

Paper Mario

Shantae

Geno

Rayman

Sora (apparently, my assumption of disney being hard to work with was untrue. However, Sora would probably have to exclude the disnet characters, because they sure as hell arent disney characters.)

Custom Robo

Jibanyan (?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I can’t determine a cutoff point, I’m not sure which echos are likely.

(What do you all think?)

I think your assessment is right, at least to funnel the most likely candidates. Because here's the thing, they CAN create unique movesets for any of these. The question is resources and time. They already spent quite a bit, and even though it's not fullproof to say they wouldn't consider someone with less votes or less moveset potential,all we can do is find the ones that have the most going for them, at least for a list of top contenders, as far as we know that is.

This is just my reasoning for which ones I'd put in as top 5 contenders:

Isaac - LOTS OF VOTES. This counts for a lot. There's also easy moveset potential, though no platformer precedent. Unfortunately, Nintendo's shown that they don't care enough to put amiibo costume at the end of smash 4, unlike other fighters. I rate him as part of the top 5, but something like fourth or fifth.

Banjo - Lots of votes. Moveset potential, but not very unique,, at least as I see it. But I count him low because he's microsoft, and I'm no sure they would want him in anyway because of duckhuntdog already being a similar duo. He may still have chances, it's debatable, but I still dont put him in top 5.

Bandana Dee - Lots of votes. Moveset potential, and easy platforming precedent to use. Also Part of Sakurai's pet franchise. I'd put him really high but some people don't like him or think he's fit, so I would put him at #3 if not #2.

Paper Mario - Lots of votes because of timing of a VC release, possibly. I don't know if Nintendo would want to create a unique mario again anyway. I'd put him maybe at #6 at best, so not part of top 5, and really I think further than sixth.

Geno - Lots of votes. Enough moveset potential. And Sakurai said he wanted him in since Brawl. Got amiibo costume. I count him as the top contender. #1

Shantae - Lots of votes. Lots of moveset potential, including platforming precedent and their company willing to contribute as much as needed. There's evidence that Wayforward is under an NDA (can take a bit of looking into it more if you haven't). There's some people that think she has less chance because of Shovel Knight, but actually it helped her a lot in knowing that indie game characters have been included in the equation. Also, at the time of the ballot, she was known in japan while shovel knight wasn't. There's more, but I don't want to put to much here haha. I put her in the top 5 as it's looking good.

Rayman - I used to hear more about him at some points but then it went down. He's got platforming background at one point, but not too many moves. My gut says he's not in smash, even if Ubisoft has good relations with Nintendo, but other stuff could point to yes. I'd put him at best at 6th or 7th, but imo he's not even top 10. This one may be debatable, dunno.

Custom Robo - I honestly don't know. Could have moveset potential if allowed to customize, but I dont see it happening at this point. He got a decent amount of votes in some places, but I just don't see Nintendo putting him in Smash at this point, I could be wrong. But I wouldn't put him in top 5. maybe even not top 10.

(note on skullkid - not voted much in the time of the ballot, so doesn't have enough going, imo)
(note on sukapon - already an assist anyway, so)
(note on assist trophies - could still be turned into fighters, including with dlc, but I'm not sure that's likely with nintendo.)

As for Echos, I think they're pretty simple, like Isabelle, Shadow, Impa, and some more I can't think of right now.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Again, that's not really how Sakurai works. Last time around what seemed like half the newcomers were unexpected or creative implementations. I don't buy the argument that Sakurai has turned lazy when you look at the product we're actually being delivered.

Sakurai hasnt turned "lazy". He's just become more conservative with his approach to characters.

And yeah. Smash 4 had tons of unexpected characters. But ultimate isn't smash 4, is it?

And yeah. He isn't being lazy. But that's the thing. There's a lot of things he has to worry about besides characters.

 

[SirCamp]

i mean, yeah. Of course anyone can have a moveset.

My argument is that sakurai might not be wanting to deal with making original movesets for characters that don't have much to work with.

Otherwise, why would he turn them into assist trophies if people really wanted them?

Honestly I'd just say it's due to prioritization. We can't all get everything we want. There are only so many resources whether that's staff, time, money, whatever to allocate towards making the game. So characters that get added have to be prioritized based on whatever criteria Sakurai and his team see fit. We don't really know what that criteria is. Might it have something to do with moveset potential? sure, but again we don't know. And we DO know that characters with little to work with have been made into characters already, so even if we assume that moveset potential is one criterion, we also know that exceptions can be made. Say if a character is popular or important enough or perhaps they fit enough of the other criteria to warrant inclusion. Who knows. Those that don't make the cut may become assist trophies. They also might not. Again we don't know the criteria for how that ATs are chosen. So saying that a character being an assist trophy despite being popular means that said character can't work based on Sakurai's criteria is just making way more assumptions about the process for developing the game than I'd be comfortable making.

Could it be the case? Sure. It might be for some and not others. It might not be for any. We really don't know. So I don't really see that as a reason to dismiss anyone's wanted characters as being infeasible.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

Honestly I'd just say it's due to prioritization. We can't all get everything we want. There are only so many resources whether that's staff, time, money, whatever to allocate towards making the game. So characters that get added have to be prioritized based on whatever criteria Sakurai and his team see fit. We don't really know what that criteria is. Might it have something to do with moveset potential? sure, but again we don't know. And we DO know that characters with little to work with have been made into characters already, so even if we assume that moveset potential is one criterion, we also know that exceptions can be made. Say if a character is popular or important enough or perhaps they fit enough of the other criteria to warrant inclusion. Who knows. Those that don't make the cut may become assist trophies. They also might not. Again we don't know the criteria for how that ATs are chosen. So saying that a character being an assist trophy despite being popular means that said character can't work based on Sakurai's criteria is just making way more assumptions about the process for developing the game than I'd be comfortable making.

Could it be the case? Sure. It might be for some and not others. It might not be for any. We really don't know. So I don't really see that as a reason to dismiss anyone's wanted characters as being infeasible.

Alright.

 

[tveye]

For Ashley, i Never played Wario ware games but since the litle I know is that they're kind minigame collections, the only thing that could pull for her is use things from many diferent minigames

Really? That’s surprising. There’s been at least one on every Nintendo console since GBA so I figured everyone’s played at least one of them. That being said, I’m completely lost on the idea of Ashley being playable. She’s not the most important female character of the series (that’d be Mona), she’s not the most popular character in the series (that’d most definitely be Jimmy T or 9-Volt), and in my opinion, doesn’t even have the best theme song (Mike’s theme is sooooo damn good).
I’m under the impression that most people only want her in because “she’s cute”. Personally, I think Spitz is 100x cuter.

 

[KMDP]

You know... I want both Rex & Pyra and Isaac to be a thing in Smash...

Spoiler: Spoilered for size

So that we can have an unholy fusion of these two jokes.

 

[Silo777]

Let's all hope this is Sakurai looking through the Ballot.

 

[alguidrag]

Really? That’s surprising. There’s been at least one on every Nintendo console since GBA so I figured everyone’s played at least one of them. That being said, I’m completely lost on the idea of Ashley being playable. She’s not the most important female character of the series (that’d be Mona), she’s not the most popular character in the series (that’d most definitely be Jimmy T or 9-Volt), and in my opinion, doesn’t even have the best theme song (Mike’s theme is sooooo damn good).
I’m under the impression that most people only want her in because “she’s cute”. Personally, I think Spitz is 100x cuter.

Or because she is a popular character pic and don't use a Sword(because i'm sure that 90% of people that hate Isaac would love to have him on smash if he didn't have a sword)
just kidding, she is a cute lil witch, and more other things that the game do that I don't know, so she is well loved