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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

JaidynReiman

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Certainly my good sir! I sat down and listed all newcomers per iteration and marked down in order of their arrival whether or not they introduced a new IP. Using that number, you can divide by the number of newcomers to find out the % of newcomers who brought with them a new IP.

I had to set the rule of "once a series is confirmed by a character, it can't be counted again). After all, Marth introduced the series but Roy was also in Melee as a clone. So Roy's series was already counted. It makes the calculation a lot cleaner as it removes duplication. I have the tallies below
  • Of the 12 newcomers in 64, 10 of them brought a new series (With Luigi and Jigglypuff not adding to the tally)
  • For Melee, only 3 newcomers were from a new series (Ice Climbers, Mr Game & Watch, Marth)
  • In Brawl, 6 newcomers were from a new series (Olimar, R.O.B, Pit, Snake, Sonic and Wario)
  • 3DS/Wii U had the most with a staggering 11 (Bayonetta, Cloud, Duck Hunt Duo, Litte Mac, Mega Man, Mii Fighters, Pac-Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager and Wii Fit Trainer
  • Ultimate has 2 right now (Inkling and Simon)
Using that, you can divide by the number of newcomers total to find the rate.
  • N64 = 10 / 12 = 83.33%
  • Melee = 3 / 13 = 23.08%
  • Brawl = 6 / 15 = 40.00%
  • 3DS/Wii U = 11 / 19 = 57.89%
  • Ultimate = 2 / 8 = 25.00%
I do statistics and maths a lot so I am used to this sort of thing. If I excluded the echoes, the rate is higher due to most of them being part of the same series so it distorts the result. But hopefully this makes sense!
And for obvious reasons we shouldn't count Smash 64 anyway.

IMO, we probably shouldn't include DLC in the equation either for 3DS/Wii U because we're not looking at DLC right now but base roster.



Dropping DLC:
Bayonetta, Cloud, Ryu, Corrin (3 third-parties and one first-party), that puts us at:
3DS/Wii U = 8 / 15 = 53.33%
 

XenoWarriorX

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Certainly my good sir! I sat down and listed all newcomers per iteration and marked down in order of their arrival whether or not they introduced a new IP. Using that number, you can divide by the number of newcomers to find out the % of newcomers who brought with them a new IP.

I had to set the rule of "once a series is confirmed by a character, it can't be counted again). After all, Marth introduced the series but Roy was also in Melee as a clone. So Roy's series was already counted. It makes the calculation a lot cleaner as it removes duplication. I have the tallies below
  • Of the 12 newcomers in 64, 10 of them brought a new series (With Luigi and Jigglypuff not adding to the tally)
  • For Melee, only 3 newcomers were from a new series (Ice Climbers, Mr Game & Watch, Marth)
  • In Brawl, 6 newcomers were from a new series (Olimar, R.O.B, Pit, Snake, Sonic and Wario)
  • 3DS/Wii U had the most with a staggering 11 (Bayonetta, Cloud, Duck Hunt Duo, Litte Mac, Mega Man, Mii Fighters, Pac-Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager and Wii Fit Trainer
  • Ultimate has 2 right now (Inkling and Simon)
Using that, you can divide by the number of newcomers total to find the rate.
  • N64 = 10 / 12 = 83.33%
  • Melee = 3 / 13 = 23.08%
  • Brawl = 6 / 15 = 40.00%
  • 3DS/Wii U = 11 / 19 = 57.89%
  • Ultimate = 2 / 8 = 25.00%
I do statistics and maths a lot so I am used to this sort of thing. If I excluded the echoes, the rate is higher due to most of them being part of the same series so it distorts the result. But hopefully this makes sense!

That's an interesting take on Isaac's chances. Though, there is always that possibility that he wouldn't get in at all.
 

Pwnapplez

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Well atm Camelot and smash are already hand and hand. With Waluigi in it already it's not like they need to be reached.
Even as a second party Isaac is a Nintendo only character.
He has atm the highest chance if we are talking about demand vs 1st or 3rd

That's an interesting take on Isaac's chances. Though, there is always that possibility that he wouldn't get in at all.
No, he will be in smash one way or another, the ballot is making people into AT or fighters, he is going to be one or the other.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Tetiro

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And for obvious reasons we shouldn't count Smash 64 anyway.

IMO, we probably shouldn't include DLC in the equation either for 3DS/Wii U because we're not looking at DLC right now but base roster.



Dropping DLC:
Bayonetta, Cloud, Ryu, Corrin (3 third-parties and one first-party), that puts us at:
3DS/Wii U = 8 / 15 = 53.33%
True. I wasn't sure whether or not to. Maybe I should take it one on my big spreadsheet. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: I have removed the inclusion of DLC. Surprisingly that makes the results consistent. As for the N64, we include it just as the start block.
 
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Frosty Pops

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F-Zero Card Game? oh my god these leaks. At least it gives us something to talk about.

When's the last time ya'll played Golden Sun? I've been replaying through the first game late.y
Playing it right now, gonna play some more after work.
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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Interesting and logical. After all Sakurai made Fire Emblem a thing in the west and revived Pit too. Sakurai is the best at a revival that's for sure
Sakurai is definitely the best at reviving characters. He has this way of staying true to the classics and giving it a modern flair at the same time which I absolutely love
 

Frosty Pops

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What would be other splash screen/entrance ideas?
Forming up out of the ground like sand man? Or a sandcloud blows in and pulls together in tornado fassion which then fuses into isaac. Teleport but other characters do that...
 
Last edited:

osby

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Wait, can people in Golden Sun turn into sand? I keep learning new things about that game.
 
D

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Wait, can people in Golden Sun turn into sand? I keep learning new things about that game.
There's two instances.

In The Lost Age, Felix learns Sand after you defeat the Serpent in Gaia Rock, which allows you to go through sandy passages, bypassing rocks and other things.

In Dark Dawn, there's a character known as the Sand Prince.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Anyway, as far as entrances go, I always imagined Isaac & Felix having slightly different ways to materializing. Isaac would use Retreat/Teleport to appear on the stage, while Felix would materialize onto the scene with Sand. It would be a really cool way to start and show the gamer what they are dealing with isn't some plain ol' "anime swordsman".
 

osby

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Anyway, as far as entrances go, I always imagined Isaac & Felix having slightly different ways to materializing. Isaac would use Retreat/Teleport to appear on the stage, while Felix would materialize onto the scene with Sand. It would be a really cool way to start and show the gamer what they are dealing with isn't some plain ol' "anime swordsman".
Corrin goes from a freaking dragon to human form and he's still "plain ol' anime swordsman". Let's not underestimate Smash fandom.
 

Pwnapplez

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Anyway, as far as entrances go, I always imagined Isaac & Felix having slightly different ways to materializing. Isaac would use Retreat/Teleport to appear on the stage, while Felix would materialize onto the scene with Sand. It would be a really cool way to start and show the gamer what they are dealing with isn't some plain ol' "anime swordsman".
That or they can pretty much use em as moves.

Isaac can use retreat as a dodge or a recover. Felix could use sand to hide like the inkling for a bit.

However, I see them also as really cool entrances
 

Bassoonist

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Well, I, for one, find sword fighting characters to be awesome.

But never have I envisioned Isaac being much of a sword fighter. Certainly some of his regular attacks could use a sword, echoing his basic attack in the Golden Sun games. But most of them and all of the specials should be psynergy and/or Djinn.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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Corrin goes from a freaking dragon to human form and he's still "plain ol' anime swordsman". Let's not underestimate Smash fandom.
He also had poor timing in terms of character reveal,. especially since people were already getting sick of the amount of Fire Emblem. He had so many things going against him in terms of reception that it's no surprise he got a lot of hate.
 

osby

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Well, I, for one, find sword fighting characters to be awesome.

But never have I envisioned Isaac being much of a sword fighter. Certainly some of his regular attacks could use a sword, echoing his basic attack in the Golden Sun games. But most of them and all of the specials should be psynergy and/or Djinn.
I can see him being like Robin, but psynergy making up his Smashes and maybe dash attack.

Though, if he's not going to have two weapons like Robin, he can use his sword less.
 

Bassoonist

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I think the problem with a lot of the sword fighting characters in the game is that there's an overabundance of Fire Emblem characters (I say that as a fan of all of them), and also an overabundance of clones/semi-clones.

Like... Toon Link and Young Link could both have entirely unique movesets from 'regular' Link. There's so much potential lost there just because both characters were shoved in as last minute clones in their introduced games, and now they must remain as clones just to appease the people who liked playing them that way in the original games.
 
Last edited:

osby

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I think the problem with a lot of the sword fighting characters in the game is that there's an overabundance of Fire Emblem characters (I say that as a fan of all of them), and also an overabundance of clones/semi-clones.

Like... Toon Link and Young Link could both have entirely unique movesets from 'regular' Link. There's so much potential lost there just because both characters were shoved in as last minute clones in their introduced games, and now they must remain as clones just to appease the people who liked playing them that way in the original games.
Decloning really a hard thing to justify, though. Why keep working on characters who couldn't even get in as unique characters, when you could be working on new characters?

EDIT: Also, it's not like sword users have more clones than others.
 
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Pwnapplez

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He also had poor timing in terms of character reveal,. especially since people were already getting sick of the amount of Fire Emblem. He had so many things going against him in terms of reception that it's no surprise he got a lot of hate.
I think Corrin should of not been in smash, just because the character itself is disliked. With there arrival, the FE community and the Smash community were not happy
The problem is not with the amount of FE characters it's how the FE fight.

Robin was a great addition, magic, and sword. Corrin is very unique but the character sadly could have been anyone else.
Prob is, FE 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 characters were dead in the water till Heroes brought life to em.

The hardcore FE fans knew, but the new casual market did not.
Plus at the time no one wanted Corrin, Roy was enough to come back with for FE. Fates did not need an icon.

Smash Wii U was doomed to start, the 3ds was something that held it back.


I think the problem with a lot of the sword fighting characters in the game is that there's an overabundance of Fire Emblem characters (I say that as a fan of all of them), and also an overabundance of clones/semi-clones.

Like... Toon Link and Young Link could both have entirely unique movesets from 'regular' Link. There's so much potential lost there just because both characters were shoved in as last minute clones in their introduced games, and now they must remain as clones just to appease the people who liked playing them that way in the original games.
Young Link is going to play like regular Link since BOTW link is new
 

Istry555

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Decloning really a hard thing to justify, though. Why keep working on characters who couldn't even get in as unique characters, when you could be working on new characters?

EDIT: Also, it's not like sword users have more clones than others.
I actually think the swords might have the most clones if only because of the 3 Links and 4 Marths currently in the roster.
 

James Tutumbero

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The problem with the Fire Emblem characters is that in the franchise there are axe wielders, bow wielders, mace wielders... but the main ones always wears swords.
 

osby

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I actually think the swords might have the most clones if only because of the 3 Links and 4 Marths currently in the roster.
Clones who use a sword:
:ultlucina::ultchrom::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultroy:
Clones who don't use a sword (+Ganon):
:ultdarksamus::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultdarkpit::ultfalco::ultganondorf::ultrichter::ultdoc::ultlucas:
 

alguidrag

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The problem with the Fire Emblem characters is that in the franchise there are axe wielders, bow wielders, mace wielders... but the main ones always wears swords.
Well... Sword is a Heroic weapon in fiction, swift beatiful and deadly, while Axe is more a destruction weapon, Even when FE uses other weapon as a main for the lord they adapt to they personality ( and c'mon bow wielder we would have a freaking camper)
 

osby

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Joined
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Messages
23,937
Would you really say Roy is still a clone? I feel like he is way more fleshed out
He's still a semi-clone. Actually, if we trust wiki, Ganondorf and Luigi are also classified as clones, while Wolf and Jigglypuff not.

My point remains, it's hard to say sword wielding clones make up the majority of anything.
 

XenoWarriorX

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
2,278
I honestly was unable to find anything concrete details in the direct.

But GOD. Why does Sakurai have so much usage of yellow? There's yellow here, and there's yellow there! Overkill, imo.
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
23,937
I honestly was unable to find anything concrete details in the direct.

But GOD. Why does Sakurai have so much usage of yellow? There's yellow here, and there's yellow there! Overkill, imo.
As in the room that direct was filmed?
I don't think it's even his room.
 

Eagle

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
1,482
Location
Australia
Sorry of this has been mentioned before but I'm replaying The Lost Age right now and Felix's first Djinn is called 'Echo'. :laugh:

Hello, I'm new on this website, I'm one of those readers who was watching this thread on the shadows and all I want to say is that Isaac is my most wanted character to appear in Smash Ultimate (like all of the people in this thread) and that I'm Spanish so my English sometimes can be bad.
¡Bienvenido, nuevo amigo! Tu inglés es excelente. Estoy aprendiendo español en Argentina en esto momento. Tu idioma es muy dificíl!
 

KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
I was just reading this article about King K. Rool: https://smashboards.com/threads/news-how-fans-brought-back-k-rool.457451/#post-22302802

Specifically this part is interesting to me:

"To shed further light, per Hyle, per his sources (Mr. Throat or otherwise), K. Rool's hiatus boiled down to "internal apathy and factional disagreements." I have since been able to independently confirm through two sources that one of the parties that wanted to bring back K. Rool sooner was none other than Retro Studios. They were interested in putting K. Rool in the Tropical Freeze Switch port in some capacity, but were denied with no reasoning given. This reportedly was because after the ballot Sakurai had personally called dibs on reviving the character himself."

It's interesting that Retro Studios were supposedly denied access to King K. Rool so that Sakurai could revive the character himself. I wonder if something similar could happen with Isaac? I guess it seems like a stretch but maybe Camelot are sitting on a Golden Sun announcement but Nintendo is holding back on the announcement until Sakurai can "revive" Isaac.
Kimishima: Okay, fans want to see him, so we're going to bring back K. Roo-.
Sakurai: Dibs!
Retro Exec: But, we-
Sakurai: I said: dibs.
Ubisoft Dev: But, Mr. Saku-
Sakurai: What part of "dibs" do you not understand?
Because what they don't understand is that 2nd party is a made up term. Far as I'm aware, first party is essentially anything that has contract exclusivity.
If anything "Second Party" refers to the consumer, not in-house developers.
That's really what I predict happening first. GS1/2 remake on Switch as one title, full voice acting, Isaac and Felix are no longer mute, and maybe rework the dialogue a bit.

The main thing I'm unsure of is how they'd handle Felix. I've considered a couple things such as playing through the game as Isaac or Felix, where you get to see Felix's perspective of the events of GS1 and Isaac's of GS2, and maybe Alex is a guest character before Sheba joins. Or maybe they just auto switch to Felix as normal.
Yeesssss.....
Certainly my good sir! I sat down and listed all newcomers per iteration and marked down in order of their arrival whether or not they introduced a new IP. Using that number, you can divide by the number of newcomers to find out the % of newcomers who brought with them a new IP.

I had to set the rule of "once a series is confirmed by a character, it can't be counted again). After all, Marth introduced the series but Roy was also in Melee as a clone. So Roy's series was already counted. It makes the calculation a lot cleaner as it removes duplication. I have the tallies below
  • Of the 12 newcomers in 64, 10 of them brought a new series (With Luigi and Jigglypuff not adding to the tally)
  • For Melee, only 3 newcomers were from a new series (Ice Climbers, Mr Game & Watch, Marth)
  • In Brawl, 6 newcomers were from a new series (Olimar, R.O.B, Pit, Snake, Sonic and Wario)
  • 3DS/Wii U had the most with a staggering 11 (Bayonetta, Cloud, Duck Hunt Duo, Litte Mac, Mega Man, Mii Fighters, Pac-Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager and Wii Fit Trainer
    • If we exclude DLC, that is 8 out of 15
  • Ultimate has 2 right now (Inkling and Simon)
Using that, you can divide by the number of newcomers total to find the rate.
  • N64 = 10 / 12 = 83.33%
  • Melee = 3 / 13 = 23.08%
  • Brawl = 6 / 15 = 40.00%
  • 3DS/Wii U = 11 / 19 = 57.89%
    • If we exclude DLC, it is 8 / 15 = 53.33%
  • Ultimate = 2 / 8 = 25.00%
I do statistics and maths a lot so I am used to this sort of thing. If I excluded the echoes, the rate is higher due to most of them being part of the same series so it distorts the result. But hopefully this makes sense!

EDIT: Per request I have added the option to exclude DLC from 3DS/Wii U
This is a very interesting read. Good show, good show. *sips tea*
 
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Onassi2

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
48
He also had poor timing in terms of character reveal,. especially since people were already getting sick of the amount of Fire Emblem. He had so many things going against him in terms of reception that it's no surprise he got a lot of hate.
I tried to like Corrin, I even bought Fates (my first Fire Emblem game) to give him a chance. I just couldn’t make myself like him as a protagonist, and even less so knowing he was shoehorned into Smash to promote the game.
 
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