Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Kalaam]

Several of the most commonly requested characters got outed today. Dante, Llyod and Shantae... that's impressive.
It is hard to tell who could be FP11. I think Golden Sun has a chance (Isaac, Matthew or Felix) given that we have seen costumes and spirit upgrades with Min-Min and Pyrrha, and even Kazuya.

My guesses are on Ryu Hayabusa as an old-school rep, a pokemon, Isaac or a mario character.

 

[Pinguino21v]

And FP11 is the last one for sure! The way I see it, there are five big options: Ryu Hayabusa, an SMT character, a Pokemon, Waluigi, or Isaac

I would add at least these other valide options: Rayman, Phoenix Wright, or a Zelda rep. And I would remove SMT of this list of most probable.

Anyway, there is still competition.

I'd love to see that "fan rule" nuked off the face of the planet.

Oh I would love it too.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

"Boy I sure am glad we're getting these crazy big third parties instead of lame **** like Hat Goomba!"
"So you're saying...any Nintendo character would be a 'disappointing finale'?"
"Uhhhhh ackshually if the first parties were characters like Dixie Kong, Isaac, and Bandana Dee that would TOTALLY break the internet more than Steve! Yeah!"

It's hilarious to me there are still people who unironically use the "Hat Goomba" argument considering we have .

Anyways, any salt that would come in the hypothetical scenario where Isaac is the last one would be short-lived, especially compared to people still complaining about Fire Emblem characters for over half a decade.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

I see a lot of people going on about how smash never ends big...thats...not technically true? Bayonetta was a popular pick with a pretty decent push online for her. At least going off my memories. She wasn't at the forefront, I recall that much at least. That was shovel knight, king k rool, and a few others back then. But she was a decently oft mentioned pick. I suspect this last one might be a fighter that was decently popular around when dlc was decided. In that regard, both ealuigi and isaac have a shot somewhat.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I see a lot of people going on about how smash never ends big...thats...not technically true? Bayonetta was a popular pick with a pretty decent push online for her. At least going off my memories. She wasn't at the forefront, I recall that much at least. That was shovel knight, king k rool, and a few others back then. But she was a decently oft mentioned pick. I suspect this last one might be a fighter that was decently popular around when dlc was decided. In that regard, both ealuigi and isaac have a shot somewhat.

Bayonetta wasn't as big of a deal as Ryu and Cloud, just like Isaac isn't as big of a deal as Steve and Sephiroth.

 

[Paraster]

I see a lot of people going on about how smash never ends big...thats...not technically true? Bayonetta was a popular pick with a pretty decent push online for her. At least going off my memories. She wasn't at the forefront, I recall that much at least. That was shovel knight, king k rool, and a few others back then. But she was a decently oft mentioned pick. I suspect this last one might be a fighter that was decently popular around when dlc was decided. In that regard, both ealuigi and isaac have a shot somewhat.

Yeah, Bayonetta wasn't the biggest pick, but she was still a fairly popular and shocking third party character. Just looking back at old reaction videos makes it clear her inclusion was considered a big deal at least in the moment.

Even if she wasn't, it's a bit presumptuous to say that Smash never will end on a big character just because it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Guynamednelson]

it's a bit presumptuous to say that Smash never will end on a big character just because it hasn't happened yet.

Thing is, the pass has already sold. Sales won't increae THAT much if Crash makes it in at this point.

 

[Gioka]

I see a lot of people going on about how smash never ends big...thats...not technically true? Bayonetta was a popular pick with a pretty decent push online for her. At least going off my memories. She wasn't at the forefront, I recall that much at least. That was shovel knight, king k rool, and a few others back then. But she was a decently oft mentioned pick. I suspect this last one might be a fighter that was decently popular around when dlc was decided. In that regard, both ealuigi and isaac have a shot somewhat.

Bayonetta wasn't what I meant, Corrin was also announced at that time and tainted the whole thing for a lot of people, and even with Bayo it wasn't as big a bang as the Ryu/Cloud announcement. We ended ultimate's base game with Ken (an echo) and Incineroar, we ended FP1 with Byleth.

This doesn't mean FP2 can't change that, hence why I said I am torn between the two possible scenarios (a first party possibly fan demanded VS a third party hype reveal on TGA)

 

[Guynamednelson]

TGA

I really don't wanna wait that long. Months of calling people expecting Crash/MC wrong, just to be proven wrong...with another big third party? Screw that.

 

[Gioka]

I really don't wanna wait that long. Months of calling people expecting Crash/MC wrong, just to be proven wrong...with another big third party? Screw that.

Me neither. Besides, another constant thing with this fighter pass has been the second chances. Arms and XC got their chance after barely missing base game, Steve got finalised after years of negotiations, Sephiroth brought the content FFVII lacked on base game and now Kazuya gives Tekken the chance the series missed back when Smash 4 was in development. So I'd want to see that pan out on the end too, giving a chance to a series that missed it originally.

Obviously my hopes points to Golden Sun, one of the series with the most content but no playable fighter. But I guess it could also be something like Rhythm Heaven (missed chance in 4) or even Style Savvy (had files in Ultimate for a track linked to a blank stage)

 

[StrawHatX]

I do believe the last character will be a first party character and I’d love to see Isaac, but I think it may be more likely that we get a new Zelda character to go along with the BotW sequel.

A new Metroid rep to go along with Dread would be awesome, but I doubt that would happen. Even Waluigi or Dixie would be cool.

I’m also very excited about Advance Wars coming back so it would be really sweet to see Andy as the last fighter. Especially with Reboot Camp coming out Holiday this year.

I just feel pretty confident it’ll be a first party rep and I’m actually pretty cool with that. I don’t dislike third party characters and there are a few I’d like to see get in, but I hate how people downplay first party IP’s. I want to see more Nintendo characters (just not Pokémon or Fire Emblem please……despite how much I do like those series).

 

[FlawedAI]

Given that Sakurai said it would be a while until FP11, I don't expect it until November or December. I hope I'm wrong, though

I doubt we see anything from BOTW 2 or Metroid Dead, given Sakurai's distaste for pulling characters from upcoming or recently released games, given the potential for things to change in development. One thing I do expect is a first-party rep.

 

[NNN]

After all the previous reveals, I think Felix actually might have a liiiiitle chance, but I wouldn't count on it, tho.

If the last character is taking a long time to be released, there are some possibilities that come to my mind:

1 - The character is complex and hard to implement, maybe Felix with four sets of moves (air, water, earth, fire), botw's four champions... something like that.

2 - It's a real deal of a character and they wanna show it on a big event, like the game awards (Master Chief, maybe?)

3 - The last fighter pass slot includes a bonus character, which I bet it would be Waluigi if that is the case.

 

[Guynamednelson]

After all the previous reveals, I think Felix actually might have a liiiiitle chance, but I wouldn't count on it, tho.

If the last character is taking a long time to be released, there are some possibilities that come to my mind:

1 - The character is complex and hard to implement, maybe Felix with four sets of moves (air, water, earth, fire), botw's four champions... something like that.

2 - It's a real deal of a character and they wanna show it on a big event, like the game awards (Master Chief, maybe?)

3 - The last fighter pass slot includes a bonus character, which I bet it would be Waluigi if that is the case.

If you think Waluigi has a chance...shouldn't they go for Isaac and have Felix be an alt? There's no official rule that states Waluigi HAS to get in before any other AT, if it existed we wouldn't have had Little Mac first.

 

[ArkSPiTFirE]

I also think it's going to be a first party. It's been a steady progression down to this point. It would narrow down the options it could be, but that doesn't make it any easier. Many of them have factors you could say against them, whether that's Assist Trophy, Spirit Event, or already repped in Ultimate. The ones without any of that seem much more unlikely, but that's subjective.

In the end I've just tried to think about what Nintendo would pick and narrowed it down to these three, though it's still carrying a bit of bias. I've put points for and against, but these don't all matter and you can easily explain them away to be honest.

Pokémon Gen 8 - I don't want this, but its such a Nintendo pick. Points for: It's the biggest franchise in the world, Gen 8 isn't in yet. Points against: Gen 7 rep in Ultimate, Sw/Sh spirit event, series well represented.
Isaac/Felix - Obviously my top choice. Points for: New series fighter/stage, ballot pick, lots of content. Points against: Assist Trophy, no sign of new game, many JRPGs already in DLC.
Waluigi - Don't really care for him but it would be funny. Points for: Crazy popular, meme status. Points against: Assist Trophy, no base game/not much content, series well represented.

Honourable mentions go to Paper Mario or a Zelda rep. While they don't have much in the way of barriers, it feels like they're in a weird spot at being left this long. Paper Mario would feel kinda late, and a 3rd Mario might not be super well received. BotW trilogy only has one or two contenders and they'll be quite new. The classic Zelda characters that get demanded are all assist trophies, and I'm confident my picks above are more popular.

Still not confident in this though, they could break the pattern and drop a big third party. Who knows at this point. I'll keep my fingers crossed for Isaac until the end.

 

[Pinguino21v]

If the last character is taking a long time to be released, there are some possibilities that come to my mind:

1 - The character is complex and hard to implement, maybe Felix with four sets of moves (air, water, earth, fire), botw's four champions... something like that.

2 - It's a real deal of a character and they wanna show it on a big event, like the game awards (Master Chief, maybe?)

3 - The last fighter pass slot includes a bonus character, which I bet it would be Waluigi if that is the case.

4 - The character needs to be revealed alongside a new game that is not ready to be disclosed.

I also think it's going to be a first party.

It won't end in a bang IMO. The best options, to me, are, in no order:

• Less known japanese third parties including
  • Phoenix
  • Ryu Hayabusa
• Ubisoft's Rayman
• A first-party who "missed his chance", like the theme of this pass seems to be. Potentially an AT upgrade, most likely one of the following three:
  • A Zelda rep
  • Waluigi
  • Isaac

Of course, I would love to be Isaac, but to be fair, because I believe both it will be a Nintendo character and a letdown, it will just be a Zelda rep.
I don't believe in Pokémon, it doesn't fit the "second chance" theme of this pass.

 

[Diddy Kong]

A Zelda newcomer wouldn't be disappointing to me. Cause honestly, the series could use one. I'd love it to be true, as long as the character is worthy of inclusion. All current Zelda fighters are Triforce wielders, outside of Impa, I see no logical addition. But I don't really think it would be her, rather a Champion from BotW, probably Urbosa.

I also think Monster Hunter has a chance of happening. Yeah the costume, sure. But what if they'd just base the look on the ninja Monster Hunter from the last installment, Rise ?

I'd love Isaac, Felix or Matthew to be announced, but I have very little hope honestly.

 

[Kalaam]

I still think that Monster Hunter is unlikely to impossible. More monsters as bosses will always be better representation of MH gameplay than a Hunter would be. The games are about the monsters, not the Hunters. That's why Rathalos is such a great MH rep. It's a 1 on 1 recreation of how a hunt goes:
-Learn the patterns
-Dodge through attacks to get to the tail
-Sever the tail
-Break the wings
-Break the head
-Use pitfalls to great an opportunity to deal big damage.
-Use flashbombs (deku seeds) to interrupt its attacks and stun him.

A hunter wouldn't work as well, yeah it could be cool and all, but you wouldn't feel like you're playing Monster Hunter in smash.

 

[ZelDan]

I still think that Monster Hunter is unlikely to impossible. More monsters as bosses will always be better representation of MH gameplay than a Hunter would be. The games are about the monsters, not the Hunters. That's why Rathalos is such a great MH rep. It's a 1 on 1 recreation of how a hunt goes:
-Learn the patterns
-Dodge through attacks to get to the tail
-Sever the tail
-Break the wings
-Break the head
-Use pitfalls to great an opportunity to deal big damage.
-Use flashbombs (deku seeds) to interrupt its attacks and stun him.

A hunter wouldn't work as well, yeah it could be cool and all, but you wouldn't feel like you're playing Monster Hunter in smash.

I don't think Monster Hunter is getting a playable rep in Smash either at this point, but I don't think "you wouldn't feel like you're playing MH" is really a good knock against the hunters. No matter how much you reference a game within a character's moveset, you're never going to feel like you're playing their actual game, with the only exception to this maybe being the traditional fighting game characters. Like, as a Megaman main myself, I sure as hell don't feel like I'm playing a Megaman game when playing him lol.

I think when designing a character Sakurai is more concerned about a character's moveset being representative of the character themselves to some capacity moreso than their overall franchise/game. So, if the Monster Hunters were to be added and had multiple different weapons implemented, trap-based moves, and any other stuff the Hunters are capable of doing (I haven't gotten that into MH myself outside of putting a dozen or so hours into Tri lord knows how many years ago, so I'm not familiar with what they are capable of), then that would be sufficient enough I imagine.

 

[TempestSurge]

I've been hoping for the pass to do half third party and half first party. Preferably with the first party being from a new franchise. Though given that there's one more DLC character left, and it's the norm to close down newcomer speculation threads like this till next Smash game announcement, there's a very good chance that this thread could close before any potential Golden Sun game announcement. I was wondering if anyone in here runs a Golden Sun discord or something. Outside of this thread I don't know where else to talk about Golden Sun, well at least in a positive light lol.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

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Just one month to go for #GoldenSun20. Still got some time to make something for it if you want to tackle something like that for it. Also a simple tribute message with the hashtag works just fine =)

I've been hoping for the pass to do half third party and half first party. Preferably with the first party being from a new franchise. Though given that there's one more DLC character left, and it's the norm to close down newcomer speculation threads like this till next Smash game announcement, there's a very good chance that this thread could close before any potential Golden Sun game announcement. I was wondering if anyone in here runs a Golden Sun discord or something. Outside of this thread I don't know where else to talk about Golden Sun, well at least in a positive light lol.

There's r/GoldenSun and the discord server for that you can find on their site. Also the Angara Continent server is great too but if you want an invite link just ask me in DMs

 

[Hydewell]

Well, Idk if someone posted this (I think not), but anyways. Considering Mario Golf's credits, we can see that Camelot has increased by 1. It's gone from 45 people to 46. A bit disappointed, considering Mario Tennis Aces was their best selling game.
It must be said that apparently 7 people left the company while/after Aces development. And they never update its website, so I don't know where they posted the job openings.

 

[SonicLink125]

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NEW GS SHIRT at The Yetee! Based on The Lost Age team! Yeah!!!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, Idk if someone posted this (I think not), but anyways. Considering Mario Golf's credits, we can see that Camelot has increased by 1. It's gone from 45 people to 46. A bit disappointed, considering Mario Tennis Aces was their best selling game.
It must be said that apparently 7 people left the company while/after Aces development. And they never update its website, so I don't know where they posted the job openings.

Well honestly, does Camelot even need to be involved as much in a remake of Golden Sun? Cause I didn't see them credit Intelligent Systems either for the remake of Advance Wars. My guess is, they'd only need to give their permission? I dunno, maybe only Nintendo has a thing to say about this. Either way, a Golden Sun remake of the first GBA games could be in the making without Camelot even being involved.

 

[ZelDan]

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NEW GS SHIRT at The Yetee! Based on The Lost Age team! Yeah!!!

Wasn't there a Golden Sun speedrun that happened at a GDQ not that long ago? I'm guessing that's why this shirt is there?

Whatever the case, its cool to see.

 

[ArkSPiTFirE]

I think The Lost Age is showing up at this one.

 

[Xenigma]

They had Golden Sun at AGDQ, and The Lost Age now at SGDQ. Nice of The Yetee to give us special shirts for both occasions. (Personally, I'm excited to add a third GS shirt to my collection!)

 

[SonicLink125]

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The Lost Age Speedrun is happening on Wednesday, I believe. The shirt looks awesome!

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This user is wondering how much demand there is for GS plushies. Go answer it in their Doc. I'd love to have one myself!

 

[Oracle Link]

Weird how 0 people talk about mathew?

 

[ZelDan]

Weird how 0 people talk about mathew?

I don't think its really that weird.

Golden Sun Dark Dawn wasn't as popularily received as the GBA games, nor did it sell as well.

And when it comes to hypothetical Isaac echo talks, there's Felix there as an option, a character from a more popular GS game, as well as a character more visually distinct from Isaac.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I just wanna know... why Sakurai hates Golden Sun.
I don't understand why the only Nintendo RPG I enjoy is the only one that isn't in Smash.

As far as my knowledge, that isn't even a hyperbole. Am I missing any other Nintendo-owned RPGs?

• Earthbound
• Fire Emblem
• Xenoblade
• Pokemon
• Mario (various)

(I'm positive we would have a Ring Fit character if it had been newer, and I still think Dragaux is likely as the final character).
I'd even argue that each of those has more characters than it would even need- with Xenoblade being the closest to having a reasonable amount.

 

[ZelDan]

I doubt Sakurai "hates" Golden Sun. Just because he hasn't added Isaac yet doesn't mean he hates the franchise. I'd imagine at worst he is just indifferent to it or unfamiliar with it.

There are countless video game characters, within Nintendo and outside it, that could be added into Smash. Sakurai isn't going to be able to add every single one, and even Sakurai has his limits. At the end of the day, any characters not added in Smash as a playable character by the time CP11 rolls around likely had no ill intent behind their lack of playable status.

 

[TempestSurge]

I doubt Sakurai "hates" Golden Sun. Just because he hasn't added Isaac yet doesn't mean he hates the franchise. I'd imagine at worst he is just indifferent to it or unfamiliar with it.

There are countless video game characters, within Nintendo and outside it, that could be added into Smash. Sakurai isn't going to be able to add every single one, and even Sakurai has his limits. At the end of the day, any characters not added in Smash as a playable character by the time CP11 rolls around likely had no ill intent behind their lack of playable status.

Yeah he doesn't hate Golden Sun perse but I've always maintained that it most likely wasn't a game that grabbed his attention to want to play. Usually when I say this, there's always been some kind of counter saying him adding Isaac's assist trophy proves otherwise, but I think there's a difference between learning enough to pick out a single move for an assist, he doesn't have to sit down and fully play through a game for that.

Golden Sun came out around the same time Roy's game did and Sakurai mentioned before that even if he doesn't have too much time nowadays to play games, he always makes sure to play every Fire Emblem game coming out, so it's just a bit of unfortunate timing cause of course he'd play the new game of a favorite series of his than jumping into a new IP when he's busy with game development and doesn't have much time.

Usually Sakurai's nostalgia or love for a series plays into some characters that get added, like when he talked about Little Mac (the only assist promotion for 4) or how playing through Awakening made him want Robin over Chrom or how Shulk and Joker's addition he mentioned loving those series. So it's been hard for me to imagine that he fully played through Golden Sun and just never had any nostalgia or opinion about it. He didn't even talk about Isaac when it came to him being the only Brawl assist that missed 4 but got ported to Ultimate with even more moves. So I always felt neither Isaac or the Golden Sun series had been on his radar, he's only human so he can't necessarily play or likely have interest in every game that's acknowledged in Smash.

Though as you said there's so many Nintendo characters (and now 3rd parties) and only so many available spots.

 

[Monue]

We should also keep in mind that for Ultimate DLC at least it was Nintendo who made the roster, not Sakurai himself. I highly doubt Nintendo was stumbling over itself begging Sakurai to add Isaac and he was just like. Lets be honest, Isaac isn't exactly iconic or relevant (whatever relevancy that has to the Smash roster), despite how beloved he is by his modest Golden Sun community and the Smash fans old enough to remember fan favorite requests from a decade or more ago. He hasn't really had a chance since Brawl, in my opinion - and now only in so much as Ultimate's DLC choices have been unpredictable, several base game characters added to the roster were fan favorites, and there may or may not (but probably not. but maybe! but who knows. but we can hope! but is it honestly happening? but the trademark! but Mario Golf. but still!) be a remake or new game in the works.

I guess my point is that this should definitely remain more of a conversation of how Nintendo shafts its old IPs and has only recently bothered to even really acknowledge its GBA era. I don't believe in fan "rules" and I think anything is possible, but in hindsight Isaac was always a longshot for Ultimate in my opinion. I really hope that changes for the next one, assuming there will be another one.

It would be painful if the next game wasn't headed by Sakurai, and we got Isaac. I have a feeling if the game isn't absolutely bonkers, it won't be as well received without Sakurai's direction. I kind of just want them to port everything in Ultimate, and just keep adding to it. An Ultimate 2.0 or something haha. I mean come on it has to be a win for other companies to keep their characters in Smash, just keep the roster growing with each new game. It'll be like Dexit if half the roster is cut!

That's just wishful thinking on my part though. I expect the roster to be obliterated for the next game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

We should also keep in mind that for Ultimate DLC at least it was Nintendo who made the roster, not Sakurai himself.

It isn't exactly as simple as "we think this selection will get the most upvotes on r/gaming, go make them and shut up". For example I think if Nintendo had more control they'd insist the XC2 rep had to be Rex.

 

[Monue]

It isn't exactly as simple as "we think this selection will get the most upvotes on r/gaming, go make them and shut up". For example I think if Nintendo had more control they'd insist the XC2 rep had to be Rex.

I don't know if the specifics of the individual character matter as much to Nintendo, and it certainly doesn't matter for Isaac. They made the deals in-house or with other companies, and sure, likely left the specifics up to Sakurai and the people in charge of the chosen franchises. It's not quite as simple as "Nintendo chose them," no, but it's not much more complicated than that either.

What matters here is that Nintendo simply (or likely if you're still holding out hope for CP 11) didn't choose Golden Sun. They almost certainly did choose Xenoblade to have another Rep, and Sakurai filled in the blanks.

Of course this is based on Sakurai's assertion that, again, Nintendo chose the DLC rosters and he said whether or not he could or couldn't.

 

[pupNapoleon]

We should also keep in mind that for Ultimate DLC at least it was Nintendo who made the roster, not Sakurai himself.

I cannot believe Nintendo would have chosen Joker and Terry. Those have Sakurai written all over them.

Regardless of if 'hates' is too strong of a word, the idea that Golden Sun is the only Nintendo RPG to not get a character, much less several, is a very, at least- curious- decision.

Seriously, is there another Nintendo RPG without a character in Smash?

 

[chocolatejr9]

I cannot believe Nintendo would have chosen Joker and Terry. Those have Sakurai written all over them.

Regardless of if 'hates' is too strong of a word, the idea that Golden Sun is the only Nintendo RPG to not get a character, much less several, is a very, at least- curious- decision.

Seriously, is there another Nintendo RPG without a character in Smash?

cough cough Euden from Dragalia Lost cough cough

Sorry, allergies...

 

[FlawedAI]

I cannot believe Nintendo would have chosen Joker and Terry. Those have Sakurai written all over them.

Regardless of if 'hates' is too strong of a word, the idea that Golden Sun is the only Nintendo RPG to not get a character, much less several, is a very, at least- curious- decision.

Seriously, is there another Nintendo RPG without a character in Smash?

Paper Mario, technically, as well Advance Wars. A traditional turn-based RPG? Not that I can think of.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Advance Wars

That's more like strategy than RPG even if it shared an engine with the GBA FEs.

I don't know if the specifics of the individual character matter as much to Nintendo, and it certainly doesn't matter for Isaac. They made the deals in-house or with other companies, and sure, likely left the specifics up to Sakurai and the people in charge of the chosen franchises. It's not quite as simple as "Nintendo chose them," no, but it's not much more complicated than that either.

What matters here is that Nintendo simply (or likely if you're still holding out hope for CP 11) didn't choose Golden Sun. They almost certainly did choose Xenoblade to have another Rep, and Sakurai filled in the blanks.

Of course this is based on Sakurai's assertion that, again, Nintendo chose the DLC rosters and he said whether or not he could or couldn't.

Remember, we also thought that Nintendo would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, choose a character of theirs that wasn't from Fire Emblem: Three Houses or Pokemon Sword and Shield. Even if you can go "well they're still switch reps", they were still considered too risky for a fanbase that really loves playing it safe.