Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Silo777]

It could be that....or it could just be coming from people who's most wanted fighters wouldn't benefit from there being a conga line of assist trophy promotions showing up for this fighter pass.

Thanks for putting the image of Isaac and Waluigi in a conga line in my head.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Thanks for putting the image of Isaac and Waluigi in a conga line in my head.

I feel like Stoic Seraphim needs to get on that right away.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The problem is "keep expectations in check" feels a lot more subjective than it should be. Especially when it just means "it's not always going to work out for you so be prepared", more or less.

Sometimes I think it's selective who needs to keep their expectations in check. Like it's not being applied enough to people expecting a whole bunch of AAA third parties as well. Likewise, if Joker was a sign of things to come for FP1 why wouldn't the ARMS rep also tell us what this pass specializes in?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sometimes I think it's selective who needs to keep their expectations in check. Like it's not being applied enough to people expecting a whole bunch of AAA third parties as well. Likewise, if Joker was a sign of things to come for FP1 why wouldn't the ARMS rep also tell us what this pass specializes in?

It specialized in... nothing? Persona is hardly AAA as a franchise. It's big, no doubt, but it's still far closer to niche than something like MegaMan which is far more recognizable. The whole selection of 3rd parties was niche(obviously I mean Ultimate's DLC thusfar). Fire Emblem is a rather niche series, though again, no doubt big in its own way. I mean, unless you want niche as the only pattern, expectations of all 3rd parties was also incorrect.

ARMS tells us even less. We don't even know who the character is. If your point is "there's nothing to expect, so how can people keep them in check", I kind of agree. It's more people think there's some fanrule so are acting ridiculous about it. Anybody expecting anything but a Non-Spirit/Non-AT/Non-Costume "aren't keeping their expectations in check". That and until we have details here, we can't apply another expectation. As I noted, expecting everyone to be an upgrade is a bit overboard. Thinking we might get more than one upgrade is not. Problem for speculation is pessimism VS optimism. Some are far more optimistic than others and that's how their expectations are. Same with pessimism. I hope that explains it better why people are like that.

 

[FlawedAI]

It specialized in... nothing? Persona is hardly AAA as a franchise. It's big, no doubt, but it's still far closer to niche than something like MegaMan which is far more recognizable. The whole selection of 3rd parties was niche(obviously I mean Ultimate's DLC thusfar). Fire Emblem is a rather niche series, though again, no doubt big in its own way. I mean, unless you want niche as the only pattern, expectations of all 3rd parties was also incorrect.

ARMS tells us even less. We don't even know who the character is. If your point is "there's nothing to expect, so how can people keep them in check", I kind of agree. It's more people think there's some fanrule so are acting ridiculous about it. Anybody expecting anything but a Non-Spirit/Non-AT/Non-Costume "aren't keeping their expectations in check". That and until we have details here, we can't apply another expectation. As I noted, expecting everyone to be an upgrade is a bit overboard. Thinking we might get more than one upgrade is not. Problem for speculation is pessimism VS optimism. Some are far more optimistic than others and that's how their expectations are. Same with pessimism. I hope that explains it better why people are like that.

(Bolded by me for emphasis)

Would you call Dragon Quest "niche"? Cause that's about the last word I'd use to describe Dragon Quest. Persona is definitely niche, Banjo is on the border, and Fatal Fury is also somewhat on the border but leans closer to not being niche simply due to how popular it was in its heyday and the fact that SNK is still pumping out KoF stuff. I agree with you that the Fighters Pass didn't have a "theme", it was just normal additions that make sense in the base game anyway. I believe that Fighters Pass Vol. 2 will be similar, just with less third-parties simply due to a lower budget.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

(Bolded by me for emphasis)

Would you call Dragon Quest "niche"? Cause that's about the last word I'd use to describe Dragon Quest. Persona is definitely niche, Banjo is on the border, and Fatal Fury is also somewhat on the border but leans closer to not being niche simply due to how popular it was in its heyday and the fact that SNK is still pumping out KoF stuff. I agree with you that the Fighters Pass didn't have a "theme", it was just normal additions that make sense in the base game anyway. I believe that Fighters Pass Vol. 2 will be similar, just with less third-parties simply due to a lower budget.

Yes. I'd call both niche easily. You won't see SNK recognized that much worldwide. It's a far smaller market than a lot of other series. Games with traditional fighting controls have a weaker market nowadays because people cannot handle them due to various hand issues(which is part of why Smash is extremely popular. The simplified controls while still being a majorly competitive franchise in how playable it is, regardless of which game, makes it one of the biggest game franchises in the world).

Dragon Quest is only getting slightly more known outside of JP. It's not an exaggeration whatsoever. Many never heard of it. It's not just Erdrick(who is obviously less known worldwide than Luminary, but that makes sense. One was a significantly advertised game worldwide, while Dragon Warrior 3 was not given enough attention outside of JP).

But even if you don't want to call them niche at all, it's clear the pass does not have a consistency factor. I mean, besides all being active franchises in the way their home companies used them, but that's not saying much. Nor does it matter with 3rd parties, or even 1st parties directly. When Sakurai talked about "adding inactive characters", he meant veterans specifically. He's never even spoken on inactive franchises getting a new character, oddly enough. Even though that's speculated as why Golden Sun is non-playable at this time, he's never said anything like that. The best I can think of is his relevancy definition means "the franchise is still being used right now"(which obviously would apply to Castlevania and Banjo-Kazooie, along with MegaMan to a lesser extent, as the Comic it got wasn't too well known), but as I noted, there's no context in which to apply that. Though I guess priority for heavily voted characters could be part of his guidelines(ones he hasn't made public) based upon active franchises? Maybe?

 

[Xenigma]

The problem with calling anything niche is that it is extremely subjective. Let's review the FP1 characters:

- Joker, the main character of one of the most beloved JRPGs in the past decade. If you're familiar at all with the JRPG scene, you almost certainly know of Persona, and there's a strong chance you're familiar with Joker himself. Even if you were to argue JRPGs themselves are niche, they already enjoy quite a bit of representation in Smash between Cloud, Shulk, Ness, Lucas, seven Fire Emblem characters (not counting Byleth), and even arguably the Pokemon characters, which is a pretty substantial chunk of the roster. Joker may have been a surprising selection, but given his popularity in recent years, I don't think it is undeserved.

- Hero is four different protagonists from one of the most famous game series in Japan. Series character designer Akira Toriyama is one of the most famous Japanese artists ever thanks to Dragon Ball, the Slime is one of the most famous video game characters in Japan, and by using four characters it captures a variety of Dragon Quest games across the generations. Even without touching the JRPG angle, which I just discussed with Joker, I think it is safe to say Dragon Quest is very much not niche.

- Banjo and Kazooie are fan-favorite characters from the N64 era of the late 90's. Speaking as a 90's kid, everyone knew about Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie, and comparisons between the two games and Super Mario 64 were commonplace. The series may not have ultimately gone on to truly rival Mario, but those games became classics for a reason. I think it says a lot that this was perhaps the most popular addition of FP1 despite having been a dormant series for many years now.

- Terry is perhaps the least-known character to the average Nintendo fan, but as someone who follows the fighting game community, I can't downplay just how exciting this selection was. King of Fighters is one of the most beloved series of the genre, and regardless of whether you are a fan of Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, anime fighters, or whatever else, you're almost certainly familiar with KoF and, for older SNK fans, Fatal Fury as well. Terry's exclamation "Are you okay? BUSTER WOLF" is a particularly famous line, well know among the genre in a similar fashion to Hadouken/Shoryuken. While it's still a little surprising we got him instead of a Tekken character for instance, as an SNK rep, it makes sense why Terry is our latest fighting game character in Smash.

- Byleth...well, I know plenty of people aren't exactly thrilled by their inclusion, but we can't pretend that Fire Emblem hasn't been a success for Nintendo since Awakening, and their characters remain plenty popular within Smash itself. As the eighth Fire Emblem character, the argument against them wasn't whether they made sense for Smash, but simply if there were too many Fire Emblem characters as-is, and apparently Nintendo/Sakurai decided that including Byleth was the correct choice.

We could also throw in the upcoming ARMS character for good measure, but I don't think any of us can really argue that a character from a recent Nintendo fighting game is "too niche" or otherwise doesn't make sense for Smash. This also isn't to say that none of these characters are surprising: Joker and Terry were certainly unexpected, and as popular as he was, I think many of us expected B&K to be a lost cause. I'd just argue that we shouldn't say any of these character are "niche" or "random" or whatever else, because even if they don't appeal to you specifically, I can guarantee each one appeals to a substantial audience, and Nintendo was almost certainly thinking about those various audiences when selecting these characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem with calling anything niche is that it is extremely subjective. Let's review the FP1 characters:

- Joker, the main character of one of the most beloved JRPGs in the past decade. If you're familiar at all with the JRPG scene, you almost certainly know of Persona, and there's a strong chance you're familiar with Joker himself. Even if you were to argue JRPGs themselves are niche, they already enjoy quite a bit of representation in Smash between Cloud, Shulk, Ness, Lucas, seven Fire Emblem characters (not counting Byleth), and even arguably the Pokemon characters, which is a pretty substantial chunk of the roster. Joker may have been a surprising selection, but given his popularity in recent years, I don't think it is undeserved.

- Hero is four different protagonists from one of the most famous game series in Japan. Series character designer Akira Toriyama is one of the most famous Japanese artists ever thanks to Dragon Ball, the Slime is one of the most famous video game characters in Japan, and by using four characters it captures a variety of Dragon Quest games across the generations. Even without touching the JRPG angle, which I just discussed with Joker, I think it is safe to say Dragon Quest is very much not niche.

- Banjo and Kazooie are fan-favorite characters from the N64 era of the late 90's. Speaking as a 90's kid, everyone knew about Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie, and comparisons between the two games and Super Mario 64 were commonplace. The series may not have ultimately gone on to truly rival Mario, but those games became classics for a reason. I think it says a lot that this was perhaps the most popular addition of FP1 despite having been a dormant series for many years now.

- Terry is perhaps the least-known character to the average Nintendo fan, but as someone who follows the fighting game community, I can't downplay just how exciting this selection was. King of Fighters is one of the most beloved series of the genre, and regardless of whether you are a fan of Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, anime fighters, or whatever else, you're almost certainly familiar with KoF and, for older SNK fans, Fatal Fury as well. Terry's exclamation "Are you okay? BUSTER WOLF" is a particularly famous line, well know among the genre in a similar fashion to Hadouken/Shoryuken. While it's still a little surprising we got him instead of a Tekken character for instance, as an SNK rep, it makes sense why Terry is our latest fighting game character in Smash.

- Byleth...well, I know plenty of people aren't exactly thrilled by their inclusion, but we can't pretend that Fire Emblem hasn't been a success for Nintendo since Awakening, and their characters remain plenty popular within Smash itself. As the eighth Fire Emblem character, the argument against them wasn't whether they made sense for Smash, but simply if there were too many Fire Emblem characters as-is, and apparently Nintendo/Sakurai decided that including Byleth was the correct choice.

We could also throw in the upcoming ARMS character for good measure, but I don't think any of us can really argue that a character from a recent Nintendo fighting game is "too niche" or otherwise doesn't make sense for Smash. This also isn't to say that none of these characters are surprising: Joker and Terry were certainly unexpected, and as popular as he was, I think many of us expected B&K to be a lost cause. I'd just argue that we shouldn't say any of these character are "niche" or "random" or whatever else, because even if they don't appeal to you specifically, I can guarantee each one appeals to a substantial audience, and Nintendo was almost certainly thinking about those various audiences when selecting these characters.

A lot of these have enough context that forget a few things;

-Yes, not everyone knows about Persona either. Though I'll concede this one.
-Let's not pretend DQ is well known outside of Japan. It really isn't. That's why it's niche. It's hyper popular in Japan, but barely known in the West and Middle East itself. Niche is basically the balance of the two. The sales are purely based upon worldwide. People were expecting Slime because he was the mascot, and actually well known. We were able to get one Western pick(Eight) among the alts with Solo being lesser known and only Erdrick being an Eastern pick and only Luminary actually being heavily known worldwide at the time(due to massive advertising).
-Banjo-Kazooie is still not that well known to begin with. N64 is not "gaming as a whole". They were only major during that period alone. They're absolutely niche. 3rd parties are not based upon "lol Nintendo relevance", they were added for gaming as a whole after Snake was the sole time where it didn't matter(since he was asked by Kojima). Only Bayonetta is a possible exception beyond Snake, but the rest were important to that. MegaMan also has massive popularity among general fanpolls. Remember, Smash Ultimate is not a Nintendo Crossover anymore. It's officially an Ultimate Gaming Crossover of Gaming Characters(well, you can say it in different words, but that's an accurate way to say it). If it weren't for Rare Replay, let's be real, a ton of people would have no idea who they are whatsoever. They were never a severely huge franchise. And while it's true some might recognize them more than bigger franchises(hell, I knew them way more than I ever knew Persona or SMT, but I also grew up with them), some of that is obviously a case of "at the right time and right place", not gaming as a whole. I know somebody who knew them, but had no clue who MegaMan was. Which is strange, since it's a massively known franchise worldwide in comparison, where B-K was clearly lesser known. Persona also is clearly more known than B-K in general(personal anecdotes alone mean little. Which is the point of the MegaMan vs B-K example).
-SNK is a lot less niche than DQ and B-K, yeah. But the thing is? There's a lot who don't know what the game is, namely not just SNK, but specifically King of Fighters/Fatal Fury/Samurai Shodown(which are all connected now. I forget if KoF has other franchise beyond those in it? I barely played it, and I only played the other ones. I know other franchises exist for SNK, like Metal Slug, but that's not the same as being in KoF). Regardless, it's massively outshined by Tekken, Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter, the three biggest franchises for Traditional Fighting Games. Tekken is also the least known of those 3 too, despite it being essentially more popular than MK overall. Which is weird, but it's probably because MK has tons of other multi-media works and had a bigger splash in terms of things like the extreme gore, etc. So it stood out more. You have other niche stuff like Soul Calibur and Guilty Gear, among other bigger fighters. Smaller stuff like MUGEN and Skullgirls too(only smaller than things like SC. I'd still call them fairly big).
-Byleth? Fire Emblem is still not as well known as it should be. Also, "people like the idea"(though it's clear a lot hated it too) has nothing to do with nicheness alone. It's purely about recognizability. Though I can concur that Byleth isn't all that niche. So my bad. The 3rd parties were more niche, though.

Though as I said, the key thing I think is actually consistent(note that Persona is hardly AAA regardless of the niche scale. AAA is Mario/Sonic/Pac-Man/Minecraft overall when it comes to franchise. Those are the top 4 most recognizable in the world. Tetris could arguably be up there too, if it's not AA) is that they were all highly active franchises(regardless of new games at the time) when getting in. If ARMS is meant to mean anything, it's probably that Nintendo isn't worried about how active a franchise is. To reiterate, Banjo-Kazooie was promoted overall more than ARMS, due to the massive advertising that is Rare Replay. ARMS had smaller stuff, like tournaments/etc. and had very little DLC. It was easier to see which was more active. ARMS was barely kept active slightly this way among the years since it's launch. They didn't stop with how well Rare Replay was promoted. Though I can agree that they're about the same, with B-K just more well known due to more games/N64 veterans, respectively.

 

[SonicLink125]

¡Cuarto enfrentamiento de la ronda 2! #ElMejorRPG

— RPG Spain (@RpgSpain) April 11, 2020

This poll is going on and I’m impressed to see Golden Sun at 42% as of 1000 (exact) votes.

 

[FlawedAI]

Yes. I'd call both niche easily. You won't see SNK recognized that much worldwide. It's a far smaller market than a lot of other series. Games with traditional fighting controls have a weaker market nowadays because people cannot handle them due to various hand issues(which is part of why Smash is extremely popular. The simplified controls while still being a majorly competitive franchise in how playable it is, regardless of which game, makes it one of the biggest game franchises in the world).

Dragon Quest is only getting slightly more known outside of JP. It's not an exaggeration whatsoever. Many never heard of it. It's not just Erdrick(who is obviously less known worldwide than Luminary, but that makes sense. One was a significantly advertised game worldwide, while Dragon Warrior 3 was not given enough attention outside of JP).

But even if you don't want to call them niche at all, it's clear the pass does not have a consistency factor. I mean, besides all being active franchises in the way their home companies used them, but that's not saying much. Nor does it matter with 3rd parties, or even 1st parties directly. When Sakurai talked about "adding inactive characters", he meant veterans specifically. He's never even spoken on inactive franchises getting a new character, oddly enough. Even though that's speculated as why Golden Sun is non-playable at this time, he's never said anything like that. The best I can think of is his relevancy definition means "the franchise is still being used right now"(which obviously would apply to Castlevania and Banjo-Kazooie, along with MegaMan to a lesser extent, as the Comic it got wasn't too well known), but as I noted, there's no context in which to apply that. Though I guess priority for heavily voted characters could be part of his guidelines(ones he hasn't made public) based upon active franchises? Maybe?

I guess that's just my viewpoint of someone immersed in gaming culture and less so part of the general public. I think there's also a difference between being an actual niche pick and simply being niche in the West. Obviously Dragon Quest isn't well-known here, but in Japan it's the RPG series. But that comes down to cultural differences and yada yada, and in the end trying to define something as "niche" is pretty pointless.

Also, I haven't heard that Sakurai quote before. Do you know when it's from?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess that's just my viewpoint of someone immersed in gaming culture and less so part of the general public. I think there's also a difference between being an actual niche pick and simply being niche in the West. Obviously Dragon Quest isn't well-known here, but in Japan it's the RPG series. But that comes down to cultural differences and yada yada, and in the end trying to define something as "niche" is pretty pointless.

Also, I haven't heard that Sakurai quote before. Do you know when it's from?

Give me a bit to find the quote(it's from one of his articles. Read it on sourcegaming. Though I was paraphrasing, just to note). But yeah, niche is more or less what it would be "combined" with being only known heavily in 1/3 of the world. If it wasn't at least that, it'd be less than simply niche. Thankfully that's not the case, since it's the granddaddy of console rpg's. ...It doesn't help that the Asian countries is kind of small compared to the European and American regions as well, so when you take into account general populations? DQ is actually very unknown worldwide overall. 1/3 is misleading mathematically, though still technically accurate. It's probably closer to 1/5 of the worldwide, or possibly less, really.

I'll edit in or reply with the link as soon as I find it.

Here we go; "Characters from a series that has no future are rarely chosen. Also, fighters that switch models are a different matter." Clones/Echoes/etc. obviously are a different situation. This is why ones like K. Rool and Ridley are kind of easy to see how they would be a higher priority than ones like Isaac. However, let me look for something related, that was talking about veterans. This clearly is not. Though I possibly misremembered the full thing. But do note this is more or less what he means by relevancy. DKC and Metroid clearly have a future, as it doesn't refer to the character alone having a future. Banjo-Kazooie is an active product, so it technically has a future. Golden Sun would be a case where it is dormant and doesn't appear to have one. The other kind of relevancy he's talked about is "choosing characters from games that are at the right time and place". A good example is Byleth and Corrin's games. Those were developed while Smash's specific character selections were done, making the timing good. Give me a sec to find that article too. >.<;

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/07/smash-bros-roster-cuts/ Ah, this is where I misunderstood it. I didn't read enough articles. Well, derp. My bad on that. Yeah, the "characters from series with no future" thing wasn't veterans only. Apologies about that. I haven't found the last article on relevancy just yet.

 

[FlawedAI]

Give me a bit to find the quote(it's from one of his articles. Read it on sourcegaming. Though I was paraphrasing, just to note). But yeah, niche is more or less what it would be "combined" with being only known heavily in 1/3 of the world. If it wasn't at least that, it'd be less than simply niche. Thankfully that's not the case, since it's the granddaddy of console rpg's. ...It doesn't help that the Asian countries is kind of small compared to the European and American regions as well, so when you take into account general populations? DQ is actually very unknown worldwide overall. 1/3 is misleading mathematically, though still technically accurate. It's probably closer to 1/5 of the worldwide, or possibly less, really.

I'll edit in or reply with the link as soon as I find it.

Here we go; "Characters from a series that has no future are rarely chosen. Also, fighters that switch models are a different matter." Clones/Echoes/etc. obviously are a different situation. This is why ones like K. Rool and Ridley are kind of easy to see how they would be a higher priority than ones like Isaac. However, let me look for something related, that was talking about veterans. This clearly is not. Though I possibly misremembered the full thing. But do note this is more or less what he means by relevancy. DKC and Metroid clearly have a future, as it doesn't refer to the character alone having a future. Banjo-Kazooie is an active product, so it technically has a future. Golden Sun would be a case where it is dormant and doesn't appear to have one. The other kind of relevancy he's talked about is "choosing characters from games that are at the right time and place". A good example is Byleth and Corrin's games. Those were developed while Smash's specific character selections were done, making the timing good. Give me a sec to find that article too. >.<;

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/07/smash-bros-roster-cuts/ Ah, this is where I misunderstood it. I didn't read enough articles. Well, derp. My bad on that. Yeah, the "characters from series with no future" thing wasn't veterans only. Apologies about that. I haven't found the last article on relevancy just yet.

Gotcha, I see. I think that that philosophy was certainly his guidelines for Smash 4 and previous games, but I think that it changed for Ultimate and its emphasis on fan demand.

And one last comment on the niche thing - Japan is a country of over 100 million people, which is 1/3 of the US' population and 1/4 of the EU's population. When you combine those three together, it comes out to 1/8th of the "Big Three" gaming markets. So I suppose I was overstating Japan's total influence, although it's true that Nintendo and Sakurai tend to have a Japanese bias, understandably so.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Gotcha, I see. I think that that philosophy was certainly his guidelines for Smash 4 and previous games, but I think that it changed for Ultimate and its emphasis on fan demand.

And one last comment on the niche thing - Japan is a country of over 100 million people, which is 1/3 of the US' population and 1/4 of the EU's population. When you combine those three together, it comes out to 1/8th of the "Big Three" gaming markets. So I suppose I was overstating Japan's total influence, although it's true that Nintendo and Sakurai tend to have a Japanese bias, understandably so.

Oh, quite definitely. Almost every character is owned by a Japanese company too. Though some were created by the UK as well.

I dunno if it really changed that much at all. As I noted, every single new 3rd party character were relevant at the time of adding with their company that owns them and how they use them. I just feel that relevancy wasn't why those got in, but for other reasons. Mainly fan demand or massive legacy(B-K would be fan demand. I can't really call the legacy that massive. Though Bayonetta might've been a special case, not that she lacked fan demand. Snake was due to Kojima asking, as noted. Yuji Naka did ask for Sonic in Melee too, but that wasn't the entire factor. A lot of people really wanted him in, cause it's freaking Sonic). Also, I figured out exactly where I misunderstood the situation; some of the cuts in Smash 4 related to "lack of character being used", which mainly was Wolf and Lucas. Ice Climbers were 3DS issues(it was never really stated that a lack of new games mattered). Pokemon Trainer also had 3DS issues. Snake was 3rd party and things didn't work out for who know what reason. Specifically cuts from the Brawl roster, anyway. So cause I read it there, I didn't fully realize it wasn't only referring to that context.

Anyway, Golden Sun getting quite a lot of content shows it has fan demand. It not having a playable character probably was due to relevancy. It's weird with ARMS, due to how it's just barely being promoted by Nintendo here and there since it released. Which to say the least, means it doesn't mean too much yet that the franchise got chosen. Namely we knew 1st parties were on the table since Byleth, but it's still a glimmer of hope. Spirits/AT's may no longer matter. This could be because people did honestly want the franchise to get a character due to stuff like fanpolls, which spells good news for Isaac as is. More or less, we'll know fairly soon, and he might go into the reasons for the pick. I'm sure his Famitsu column will shed some light, if his presentation doesn't make a note or two. June's a long wait. ._.;

 

[Cadillac]

The 2 month wait feels so long.
However unbeknownst to us, 1/3 of 2020 has passed.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

The 2 month wait feels so long.
However unbeknownst to us, 1/3 of 2020 has passed.

June will be here as soon as you know it.

We've almost already gotten through half of April.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I really hope June will give us the goods in general, Golden Sun or not Nintendo's lineup should be less barren lol

 

[FlawedAI]

Oh, quite definitely. Almost every character is owned by a Japanese company too. Though some were created by the UK as well.

I dunno if it really changed that much at all. As I noted, every single new 3rd party character were relevant at the time of adding with their company that owns them and how they use them. I just feel that relevancy wasn't why those got in, but for other reasons. Mainly fan demand or massive legacy(B-K would be fan demand. I can't really call the legacy that massive. Though Bayonetta might've been a special case, not that she lacked fan demand. Snake was due to Kojima asking, as noted. Yuji Naka did ask for Sonic in Melee too, but that wasn't the entire factor. A lot of people really wanted him in, cause it's freaking Sonic). Also, I figured out exactly where I misunderstood the situation; some of the cuts in Smash 4 related to "lack of character being used", which mainly was Wolf and Lucas. Ice Climbers were 3DS issues(it was never really stated that a lack of new games mattered). Pokemon Trainer also had 3DS issues. Snake was 3rd party and things didn't work out for who know what reason. Specifically cuts from the Brawl roster, anyway. So cause I read it there, I didn't fully realize it wasn't only referring to that context.

Anyway, Golden Sun getting quite a lot of content shows it has fan demand. It not having a playable character probably was due to relevancy. It's weird with ARMS, due to how it's just barely being promoted by Nintendo here and there since it released. Which to say the least, means it doesn't mean too much yet that the franchise got chosen. Namely we knew 1st parties were on the table since Byleth, but it's still a glimmer of hope. Spirits/AT's may no longer matter. This could be because people did honestly want the franchise to get a character due to stuff like fanpolls, which spells good news for Isaac as is. More or less, we'll know fairly soon, and he might go into the reasons for the pick. I'm sure his Famitsu column will shed some light, if his presentation doesn't make a note or two. June's a long wait. ._.;

My point with that was that Sakurai has become more receptive to fan demand rather than legacy/relevancy for Ultimate, given Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo. It's a little different for third-parties since Sakurai has to have a relationship with the company in question as well as some notability, since it's known that Sakurai would've gone with Terra as the Final Fantasy rep but went with Cloud due to notoriety. It's definitely true that Sakurai considers a first-party series' future when adding/removing characters, but I think he's started to shift his mindset to more of fan demands.

And fun fact: four characters in Smash are Western-created: Diddy Kong, Dark Samus, King K. Rool, and Banjo-Kazooie. Three are British (the ones from Rare) and one is American (Dark Samus was created by Retro, who is based in Austin, Texas). However, only one character is Western-owned - Banjo, owned by the American Microsoft.

 

[SonicLink125]

Mii Isaac is the Easter Bunny! Now he needs to deliver this special egg. Happy Easter, everyone!
#SmashBros #GoldenSun #AssistAlliance pic.twitter.com/PQbQ6BNxyU

— SonicLink125 ☀️ (@SonicLink125) April 12, 2020

Can’t wait to do this with a playable Isaac one day.
Happy Easter, Adepts!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My point with that was that Sakurai has become more receptive to fan demand rather than legacy/relevancy for Ultimate, given Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo. It's a little different for third-parties since Sakurai has to have a relationship with the company in question as well as some notability, since it's known that Sakurai would've gone with Terra as the Final Fantasy rep but went with Cloud due to notoriety. It's definitely true that Sakurai considers a first-party series' future when adding/removing characters, but I think he's started to shift his mindset to more of fan demands.

I mean, all of those were from relevancy/active series, and reasonably legacy, so... not really? It was easily both. If it weren't for those 3 having an actual legacy to begin with, they wouldn't even have that fan demand. They actually had a major impact to gamers. That is their legacy. It's not the same as a giant legacy over a crapload of its franchise usage like MegaMan. I really don't see evidence of a mindset shift. I just see lots of relevant series getting characters over and over again.

That said, this feels like it's going in circles. I at first thought relevancy wasn't that important, but considering I misunderstood his quote, only the retro/surprise picks(and veterans, sometimes) really ignore relevancy entirely. Relevancy is a known factor and one he keeps in mind. Besides, Banjo-Kazooie wasn't his pick anyway. That was Nintendo's. Sakurai went on record to say none of Fighter's Pass 1 was his "personal picks". So that means Nintendo were up to bat here. Fan demand alone doesn't cut it for them anymore. They need to make sure it's worth the investment. Knowing it will sell. Being an active series makes it easy to have them in the spotlight. Fan demand made them the best pick over Chief and Steve at that point, but all 5 third party characters were easy business picks as well. Each series was active and getting new games or constantly being advertised(in fact, Sakurai literally told people to go for Microsoft product. This was likely mandated by Nintendo or Microsoft as part of getting the bear and bird. Albeit, Sakurai also doesn't care about console wars, but he can't advertise another company without Nintendo being okay with it either. He works for them, after all. Joker was really the only one that didn't have some clear advertisement during showcase, and that was barely a showcase, just a very quick look. I nice look with details, but a lot quicker).

Either way, I think it's safe to say there's not enough evidence for me to buy relevancy isn't important in this context, especially with Nintendo having control, not Sakurai. If it was Sakurai, a lot could've changed. Byleth and Joker don't seem nearly as much like they would've happened. Hero, yes(due to wanting him in the base game), Banjo-Kazooie(due to fan demand, and them being relevant helps too), and Terry because he outright was inspired by Fatal Fury to make Smash itself. Byleth and Joker still would've made sense for him to choose, though. Byleth gives an awesome idea of multiple weapon types, something Sakurai knows people wants, and Joker is from an amazing game worth getting attention for. Anyway, let's hope Spring Man shows up to put some fanrules to rest~

And fun fact: four characters in Smash are Western-created: Diddy Kong, Dark Samus, King K. Rool, and Banjo-Kazooie. Three are British (the ones from Rare) and one is American (Dark Samus was created by Retro, who is based in Austin, Texas). However, only one character is Western-owned - Banjo, owned by the American Microsoft.

Pretty much. That's why Western character is used in two different ways, cause it depends how you define it. It's like people saying Nintendo-character at times. They mean owned or "might as well be one" by proxy. Or how people like to call Snake or Cloud a Sony character due to the core games showing up on the Playstation systems(likewise, Joker is the same way. He's even less Nintendo-related than the other two). The analogy is kind of strange, but yeah, depends the context more or less.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I feel like at least one more western character is going to get into Ultimate most likely Crash Bandicoot. Like I'm more of a Banjo-Kazooie fanboy and I love the Banjo-Kazooie games much more than the Crash Bandicoot games, but I can't denie Crash is a much bigger icon than Banjo & Kazooie are with Crash formerly being the mascot for Sony's PS1. Yes, Banjo & Kazooie were more popular in the Smash community, but as a famous gaming icon Crash takes the cake here. If Nintendo was willing to go to Microsoft to get Banjo & Kazooie in than I have no doubt in my mind they will go to Activision to get Crash Bandicoot due to his legendary status as a former Playstation mascot and his popularity within the Smash community. I actually think Crash will be one of the E3 reveals that was or still is planned for June.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Sometimes I think it's selective who needs to keep their expectations in check. Like it's not being applied enough to people expecting a whole bunch of AAA third parties as well. Likewise, if Joker was a sign of things to come for FP1 why wouldn't the ARMS rep also tell us what this pass specializes in?

I mean, let’s be real though, the difference between and various “bottom of the barrel” Nintendo characters like Isaac in terms of recognisability is nothing compared to the difference between the former 3 and . There was already a huge “step down” to begin with between the DLC for Smash 4 and the first Fighter Pass. Anyone who got mad at an ARMS character for not being a “hype” third-party icon only have themselves to blame.

That being said, I still think we are getting one or two third-party characters in this pass. If Joker was a sign of what people could expect from FP1, then an ARMS character is a good sign of what to expect from FP2.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I feel like at least one more western character is going to get into Ultimate most likely Crash Bandicoot. Like I'm more of a Banjo-Kazooie fanboy and I love the Banjo-Kazooie games much more than the Crash Bandicoot games, but I can't denie Crash is a much bigger icon than Banjo & Kazooie are with Crash formerly being the mascot for Sony's PS1. Yes, Banjo & Kazooie were more popular in the Smash community, but as a famous gaming icon Crash takes the cake here. If Nintendo was willing to go to Microsoft to get Banjo & Kazooie in than I have no doubt in my mind they will go to Activision to get Crash Bandicoot due to his legendary status as a former Playstation mascot and his popularity within the Smash community. I actually think Crash will be one of the E3 reveals that was or still is planned for June.

Plus Crash is popular worldwide. Even Japan loves him.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Even if we don’t get another AT promotion, spirit promotion are viable considering pretty much any notable Nintendo character already has one and thus an in-game role.

Plus Crash is popular worldwide. Even Japan loves him.

Crash 2 and 3 both sold over a million there. So he’s clearly recognisable there.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, let’s be real though, the difference between and various “bottom of the barrel” Nintendo characters like Isaac in terms of recognisability is nothing compared to the difference between the former 3 and . There was already a huge “step down” to begin with between the DLC for Smash 4 and the first Fighter Pass. Anyone who got mad at an ARMS character for not being a “hype” third-party icon only have themselves to blame.

It feels like a lot of people are conveniently ignoring why Banjo vs. Steve debates were a thing, and instead acting like Banjo and Kazooie were wanted BECAUSE OF Microsoft, not IN SPITE OF.

Similarly, when people predict Geno in their FP2s alongside a barrage of third-party icons, I can't help but think they think Geno is wanted BECAUSE he's a Square-Enix character.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It feels like a lot of people are conveniently ignoring why Banjo vs. Steve debates were a thing

I always thought those debates were pretty pointless. Neither of them would have ever been decided on by Nintendo or Sakurai as Microsoft “reps” as neither franchises are heavily associated with the Xbox brand In comparison to Halo, with the latter being a multi-platform game which only became a property of Microsoft after they bought the rights to it, long after it was already iconic. In the case of Banjo, not only were the first two games Nintendo exclusives, Banjo was a Nintendo characters (the bottom of the back cover of Diddy Kong Racing pretty much proves it). This simple but important fact alone puts him in a unique situation incomparable to pretty much any other third-party character ever.

If a Microsoft-owned character would have been selected for the sake of “reps” it would have been the character that actually is iconic to the gaming side of that company.

More importantly, it was only Banjo that was ever explicitly stated by the head of the Xbox division to be fair game. Honestly speaking the debates should have never been about Banjo vs Steve but rather if Banjo and Kazooie could have made it in on their own merits.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Alright I finally set a new #goldensunday for May 24th. We'll be doing the usual like sending letters/emails, making cool art and just sharing Golden Sun love in general

Surprise!!! A new #goldensunday is coming May 24th! It's not based on an anniversary this time we just want everyone to have a good time sharing some Golden Sun love. Don't forget to send Nintendo letters if you can and be respectful when tagging the right accounts. Have fun! pic.twitter.com/hPEQ5zIKyN

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) April 14, 2020

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Off-topic, but does anyone here remember A Goofy Movie?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Off-topic, but does anyone here remember A Goofy Movie?

Yep. It's a very underrated Disney flim that had some funny and memorable moments.

 

[Organization XIII]

Off-topic, but does anyone here remember A Goofy Movie?

You don't forget something like your first Powerline concert.

 

[FlawedAI]

Alright I finally set a new #goldensunday for May 24th. We'll be doing the usual like sending letters/emails, making cool art and just sharing Golden Sun love in general

Surprise!!! A new #goldensunday is coming May 24th! It's not based on an anniversary this time we just want everyone to have a good time sharing some Golden Sun love. Don't forget to send Nintendo letters if you can and be respectful when tagging the right accounts. Have fun! pic.twitter.com/hPEQ5zIKyN

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) April 14, 2020

Alright, can't wait!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

CHEDDA WHIZZY!!!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

CHEDDA WHIZZY!!!

It’s the Leaning Tower of Cheeza!

 

[GoodGrief741]

Off-topic, but does anyone here remember A Goofy Movie?

Masterpieces are never forgotten.

(inb4 Goofy Movie becomes the next Isaac thread inside joke a la 50 Cent)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Masterpieces are never forgotten.

(inb4 Goofy Movie becomes the next Isaac thread inside joke a la 50 Cent)

If we listen to each other’s heart, we’ll find we’re never too far apart.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Masterpieces are never forgotten.

(inb4 Goofy Movie becomes the next Isaac thread inside joke a la 50 Cent)

Is there room for both?

We could just double up and make it "Goofy 50 Cent Movie", it'll save space.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Is there room for both?

We could just double up and make it "Goofy 50 Cent Movie", it'll save space.

Goofy voiced by 50 Cent in the next Goofy Movie is my choice.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

For all the Golden Sun characters yet to be a spirit in Super Smash Bros Ultimate which fighters would you guys assign to their respective spirit battles pic.twitter.com/371l7Q3xlk

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) April 16, 2020

Here's a fun discussion I started on Twitter, how would you guys do it

 

[ZelDan]

The boxing ant would obviously be Little Mac (probably wouldn't actually get a spirit but it's in the picture, so screw it)

Piers could be male Corrin I guess? Does male Corrin have a blue alt? if not that then maybe Greninja, as weird as it would be.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Does male Corrin have a blue alt?

Yes, he is the one with the blue alt.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Golden Sun is trending on Twitter due to it being a highly requested series to come back as well other dormant series as a result of a big tweet

Thanks to @Destructo_Dan 's recent tweet #GoldenSun is in the trending tab as well as other dormant series people want revivals for. This is awesome! pic.twitter.com/46NKDjma2u

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) April 16, 2020