Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[Sabrar]

If Jack is scum who are their scummates/who are they trying to convince.

Scenario 1: scum-team is Jack, Xivii, bessie, Malak

They are not necessarily trying to convince anyone right now, there is already enough suspicion on you, Triss, Spak. They only need 1 townie to vote incorrectly.

 

[Deadbananas]

hmmm so you think Jack and Xivii/ Bessie are just doing some big charade of going in on each other?

 

[Deadbananas]

NGL I'm still upset at Spak for being a big cause behind the switch from logic to pythag since we could of just lynched logic and shot pytah to confirm if he was bullet proof instead of doing it the other way around, so that's why I'd probably switch him in for Mala, but I'll have to go back and look at Pythags case on him again. You would think fewer people left would mean Id be able to remember this stuff lol.

 

[Deadbananas]

I was also wrong there so I can't really judge that much

 

[Sabrar]

hmmm so you think Jack and Xivii/ Bessie are just doing some big charade of going in on each other?

Yes. If we lynch one of them they can use this as 'evidence' that they're town, but I'm sure they are actually waiting for someone else to place a bad vote.

 

[Trisscar]

Triss, what is your current opinion on Bessie and Jack.
Bessie because you seem to have had a few interactions with them which is more than I can say for myself
and Jack because they have also been checked by Fonti and there are some people who think they could be a godfather or the target of a tailor.
Personally I feel like there would not be both a scum framer and a scum godfather or tailor. So either you are being framed and Jack is pure, or you are scum and Jack could be pure or a scum.

Beyond any irritation with Bessie's apparent opinions on how to treat other players; Every time Bessie asks me for reasons for something, it is either something I have already addressed at least once and could easily be found by ISO-ing, and/or they ask it again several pages later with slightly different wording. That, plus their tunneling on me, is why I'm scum reading them. I made myself a very tempting target for mislynch with my initial play, and then proceeded to get voting off of myself pretty much every day since. I'd imagine that is very frustrating for mafia to deal with.

Yes this is an incomplete thought, I'm not actually certain how that applies to current behavior of most of the players in game. Certainly I doubt mafia is panicking with 4 members still up right now, so it's kind of hard to tell what that frustration would even appear as.

I mean maybe but being able to mess up a cops results that badly by targeting them not their target is very low level skill game design. It would make the cop useless every night.

Everyone can be bad town true, that is why mafia is a pain for me lately to play. I fought the Handorin lynch to a degree fo that reason. I'm in a area lately where bad players are normally town, then scum not always true but feels that way lately. They is a lot more to my Triss read then that though.

Tend to agree with the first part. That just seems unfun.

Well now you have me curious, is that more something you can talk about here atm?

I'll explain my reasoning again. I thought that since I had put myself in a situation where I could very easily be lynched tomorrow, scum would not shoot me unless I was putting pressure on a member of scumteam. The person I felt I was putting pressure on and who could be mafia was Ninja, so I reasoned if he was scum thats the only reason I would be targeted and therefore targeting him would be best, and if he was town and targeted by scum I would have saved a town pr, I assumed that was my primary function as a guardian angel of sorts. I did not expect there to be a vig that would target me. That's my bad for not predicting that.

Ninja was already in a situation where they weren't a good mafia shot though? Having some outside player come in isn't a danger unless that player has outside information, it just increments town's numbers slightly.
And you were a major lynch target that day weren't you? Am I remembering that wrong?
Neither of you were good targets for a kill-transport, except if you DID think you would be vig shot. The heck?

It's a standard role in Throne of Lies (Apostle).

Okay but tbf, if on a power level scale this game (across multiple forums) was ground level, Throne of Lies would be out by Jupiter. Also it's still unfun as a ability for the cop being targetted.

 

[Trisscar]

Right s*** Malak asked about Jack as well.... Hum.

Ok so background here.
First game of this I played on forums; Wisp was in it, claimed Miller, was actually scum; but did actually manage to pocket me til I predicted a mafia NightKill as a bodyguard, and then got mafia arso'd almost immediately after the night results were posted.
Congrats Wisp you made me paranoid. XD

Jackrito seems to be experienced (if a bit rude). I could potentially read everything they have said or done so far as skilled pocketing, wherein they've made enough of the correct noises, in enough of a obscure pattern, that they do not seem scummy from most angles. Wisp managing to pocket me that first game enforces this idea.
Their "more" could be being scum and therefore knowing I am not on their team. Certainly I thought it was the other game that had been running in tandem last time they mentioned it, but that has now been posted and sudo-acknowledged? So I'm not sure what else it could even be.
I do find it amusing that whatever the heck I did in that concurrent game freaked them out though at one point. I think Jack suddenly changed tracks on me right after I posted something about how I could tell the last remaining scum player was panicking based on how they were acting.

If judging by how it almost seems like the meta here is "town acts like nonsense people because scum want to be liked" (if this is the actual meta holy crap people WHY), Jack has been mostly on the side of not being rude. That could simply be that they don't subscribe to said theoretical meta however.

I dunno. I'm suspicious of literally everyone tbh. Hence why I'm going after the people who are making my logic processes twitch, cause that's the thing that stands out the most to me atm.

 

[Jackrito]

They are not necessarily trying to convince anyone right now, there is already enough suspicion on you, Triss, Spak. They only need 1 townie to vote incorrectly.

I'm not pushing for a lynch on any of those 3 today though, the people I would be ok with the lynch on are Bessie Mala and Xavii, even with that I'm not sure who I think is town out of that POE so not sure who to trust apart from Fonti.

 

[Xivii]

How has Jack been rude

 

[Xivii]

Not much to respond to he has being tunneled on me for a while. The fact he has carried this over today, and not tried to look elsewhere shows they are scum. Now was the time to review everyone if town, not just stick on a tunnel on someone who is only scum in a world where scum can predict the vanilla check and change it or on one where town have no invest role.

That is not the type of lynch town go for today incase it is wrong because too much of a gamble it's insanely bad play.

Negative. It’s kind of obvious to me that your “reconsideration” today is just for show. You were always going to come to scum!xivii. You’re even ignoring the point you brought up for why I’m town.

 

[Xivii]

Jack is literally one of the nicest people I’ve played with

 

[fontisian]

Negative. It’s kind of obvious to me that your “reconsideration” today is just for show. You were always going to come to scum!xivii. You’re even ignoring the point you brought up for why I’m town.

Funny, I ciild

 

[fontisian]

*Could say the same about you.

Phone posting when getting out of the shower was a mistake.

 

[Xivii]

I mean maybe but being able to mess up a cops results that badly by targeting them not their target is very low level skill game design. It would make the cop useless every night.

Everyone can be bad town true, that is why mafia is a pain for me lately to play. I fought the Handorin lynch to a degree fo that reason. I'm in a area lately where bad players are normally town, then scum not always true but feels that way lately. They is a lot more to my Triss read then that though.

So is the game low power or not? Being able nullify the cop due to bad cop play is the definition of this. This is what Bessie and I were trying to describe as anti-claim mechanic. And it goes with osie’s philosophy as you’re describing: we couldn’t just claim and play follow the cop because doing so makes them useless. Instead, cop is rewarded for good cop play, avoiding detection by scum and avoiding being put in a claim position.

I’d like every to state whether they agree or disagree with my bloody bad logic that Fonti being alive indicates that either:

A. Fonti is scum.
B. There is a manipulation role.

 

[Xivii]

*Could say the same about you.

Phone posting when getting out of the shower was a mistake.

You really can’t. Unless you disagree with Jacks claim of carrying over my read. While I have reconsidered, I haven’t been making a show of it. Jack went through the process of pointing out reasons why I’m town, why Triss could be scum, etc. only to come back to the very same conclusions he already had despite the fact that they contradict the points he brought up.

 

[fontisian]

So, your claim is that you've totally gone through Jack's posts and have had it affect your opinion, you just haven't showed it. And Jack has shown that he's gone through your posts, but because he still thinks you're scum it must have been faked. That's believable.

 

[fontisian]

Relatedly, I don't think Xivii and Bessie are both scum, I think Xivii is pocketing her. His defense of bessie has no points and isn't actually an attempt to convince any of us, because he's saving her as backup mis-execute while also trying to get her to vote with him.

 

[Trisscar]

Hm, interesting theory.

 

[Xivii]

Fonti I’d like an answer as to why you still have Jack as town if you don’t think your results are reliable. If you thought he was town by play, you wouldn’t have investigated him. And since then he’s continued to only push (or defend) players on unsubstantiated reasoning (e.g. logic meta, the xivii points I dismantled, Triss being twtbw).

 

[Trisscar]

The fudge is "twtbw"?

 

[Xivii]

Too wolfy to be a wolf

perhaps it’s the avatar

 

[fontisian]

Fonti I’d like an answer as to why you still have Jack as town if you don’t think your results are reliable. If you thought he was town by play, you wouldn’t have investigated him. And since then he’s continued to only push (or defend) players on unsubstantiated reasoning (e.g. logic meta, the xivii points I dismantled, Triss being twtbw).

Jack is my strongest townread. It has nothing to do with the check and everything to do with how he's playing. Jack is trying to solve the game, he is looking back and bouncing ideas and reconsidering his perspective constantly. The biggest difference between town and scum in this game is that town need to solve, and scum already have everything solved for them. Today, they are just waiting for one town to make a mistake so they can jump in and end this. They do not want to put themselves out there like Jack is doing, and risk making enemies by calling people out. Jack is town because he still has the will to win this game, and is acting on it.

 

[Xivii]

How are you differentiating his will to win as coming from town rather than scum? As I said, his conclusions haven’t changed. This suggests that his “bouncing of ideas” etc is just for show. For example, he’s twice now had a “Triss is scum” epiphany only to retract it off flimsy reasoning a couple of posts later (the first because Logic was pushing her, the second or twtbw).

 

[Malakandra]

He's been playing purely defensively. He's come into thread, stated lukewarm opinions, is mainly present while under pressure, and hasn't contributed an awful lot to the conversation. Literally all relevant information that DB has pushed has come from a claim for a role that doesn't look very town from where I'm sitting and almost getting lynched. From what I've seen of his play, he's the classic case of a scum coaster.

It's kinda funny; up until this phase, I actually categorized you and DB as having similar play lol. I never really saw you in-thread unless you were mentioned, and the only real differentiating factor is that you made a case that doesn't make a whole lot of sense from my PoV (Point of View, sorry if it seems antagonistic but I'd rather you know the terms and I have no clue what needs specification lol). The only content I can remember from you is that case and subsequently defending it. It feels like you felt you needed to make some notable contribution to stand out, but you're having trouble finding scum when you know everyone's town so you had to craft some obscure case that doesn't make a whole lot of sense imo (clearing slots that I don't think deserve to be cleared and condemning slots that I don't see anything wrong with). Maybe we're just approaching the game from such vastly different angles that it's hard for us to look at the game through each other's eyes, but your entire concept of the gamestate seems like one heck of a stretch right now lol.

At this point we are disgussing my defence of DB more than my push on Fonti, so I'd rather let DB defend himself, if its important to your read of me let me know and I'll answer the points you made here, but I think from this point you were right in your last part that we are approaching the game from different angles and we could probably argue back and forth about this for the rest of the game, which I'd rather not do.

As for why I have my view of the gamestate, from where I stand, looking at all the mislynches and missed shots, I view this as a sign we misscleared someone who has a lot of influence on the game, so thats where my push comes from. I see you going for pretty easy lynches on DB and me, lynches like the ones we've been making and shooting up to this point that have only flipped town.

I'm not arguing it was the optimal outcome for scum, I'm just saying that it's the outcome that happened (and it was a lot better for scum than it was for town). Bessie didn't count (so she claims) and I think both slots up for the lynch are/were town, and I think we would've had a town flip either way. On a scum!Fonti flip, I'd think Jack/Bessie are scum (as well as one other slot, tbd). I don't think they had a whole lot of power left to do anything during that (or they had their power down/elsewhere), and I don't think anyone realized that Bessie tied it up until after the phase ended. The difference is we didn't have as much info going into D2 as we should've had, which made it really hard to do good wagon analysis (and didn't give us a good springboard into the rest of the game).

I agree it ended up well for scum, and was the outcome that happened. I just don't see a scum team seeing that far ahead and playing the long game instead of just getting a lynch on a conf town.

 

[Malakandra]

Mala did you not read it before?

I had read it before, but that was last day, and I had kinda forgotten about it today. Looking with todays perspective I think your points are valid, but am looking into what Sabrar said about you bussing here. Either way I think Jack is scum with Fonti, Im trying to decide whether you fit in there.

 

[Malakandra]

So is the game low power or not? Being able nullify the cop due to bad cop play is the definition of this. This is what Bessie and I were trying to describe as anti-claim mechanic. And it goes with osie’s philosophy as you’re describing: we couldn’t just claim and play follow the cop because doing so makes them useless. Instead, cop is rewarded for good cop play, avoiding detection by scum and avoiding being put in a claim position.

I’d like every to state whether they agree or disagree with my bloody bad logic that Fonti being alive indicates that either:

A. Fonti is scum.
B. There is a manipulation role.

I agree

 

[Malakandra]

Thank you for answering me Trisscar, I like your posts more today.

 

[osieorb18]

D4 Activity Check 2​

Everything is awesome!

There are roughly 22 hours remaining in the day phase.

 

[Jackrito]

So is the game low power or not? Being able nullify the cop due to bad cop play is the definition of this. This is what Bessie and I were trying to describe as anti-claim mechanic. And it goes with osie’s philosophy as you’re describing: we couldn’t just claim and play follow the cop because doing so makes them useless. Instead, cop is rewarded for good cop play, avoiding detection by scum and avoiding being put in a claim position.

I’d like every to state whether they agree or disagree with my bloody bad logic that Fonti being alive indicates that either:

A. Fonti is scum.
B. There is a manipulation role.

I mean maybe you are right on the anti claim part which means we were ruined after the claim end of day one. That aside Fonti is not scum here because of claim and play anyone pushing that line of thinking today is scum or game throwing.

B is much more likely and part of the reason I feel Triss result was messed with. I stand by my coment though that Osie would not give scum a counter that good that it cancels out a cop 100 per cent if claimed. It gives scum too much power over town who are pretty weak.

Fonti was also possibly kept alive because easy to discredit her and force a scum narrative with myself like you and Mala are doing today.

 

[Deadbananas]

Ninja was already in a situation where they weren't a good mafia shot though? Having some outside player come in isn't a danger unless that player has outside information, it just increments town's numbers slightly.
And you were a major lynch target that day weren't you? Am I remembering that wrong?
Neither of you were good targets for a kill-transport, except if you DID think you would be vig shot. The heck?

obviously hindsight it was a bad play, I won't defend that, but I think my logic in the moment was sound. I wanted to use my ability, saw no reason not to, and figured that should I be targeted by maf that would mean Ninja was maf, thats the main reason, and I think my logic was sound. I was a somewhat major lynch target, but the fact that we had a tie means I assumed if there was a a vig, one of them would be the target.

 

[Deadbananas]

So is the game low power or not? Being able nullify the cop due to bad cop play is the definition of this. This is what Bessie and I were trying to describe as anti-claim mechanic. And it goes with osie’s philosophy as you’re describing: we couldn’t just claim and play follow the cop because doing so makes them useless. Instead, cop is rewarded for good cop play, avoiding detection by scum and avoiding being put in a claim position.

I’d like every to state whether they agree or disagree with my bloody bad logic that Fonti being alive indicates that either:

A. Fonti is scum.
B. There is a manipulation role.

I think Jack made good points here in regards to this,
I agree those are possibilities, but there is also the third that it was to make her look suspicious.

I'm categorically against lynching Fonti today, they should be able to get a check tonight that will give us more info about the game that we need at this point. If there is some sort of manipulation role, Fonti should not announce who they are targeting tonight.

 

[Xivii]

We need to start getting vote tally. Everyone should start committing to who they are willing to vote. You can choose multiple.

 

[bessie]

Osie does not use normal cops is what I said because too strong and makes game not fun.

No that's not what you said. This is what you said:

Its also a role that I don't think Osie would use since he hates cops in general which is the main point of a GF use.

Adding a role that straight up negates that is not something he would do it would need to be target based to require skill not passive like GF imo anyway. I could be wrong but I have decent exp with him.

So you're saying adding a role like GF is not something Osie would do, because it is passive and he is more likely to add a targeting role? Like... framer or tailor?

I don't want to lynch Triss because sometimes the easy option is the wrong one. I'm not willing to lose this game on potentially mislynchING someone who could be a really bad town. Do I think she is certain town hell no as my posts today show. My reluctance still, is partly based off my own view on her Wisp and Fonti's. Also because I struggle to find a 4 man team that works with her and want a scum flip before I gamble on her.

Just to be clear, are you saying that one of your reasons for town reading Triss is because Wiisp was town reading her on D2? This was Wiisp's final scum team pick, do you trust these reads too?

Pythag/Xivii/Hand/Logic
Go Town!

Your defense being that Triss is much worse then yourself so sould die today is triggering to me also. In a normal situation yeah I maybe lynch her here, not with the game on the line though. Also throwing my accusation back at me about Xivii with myself and Triss is very OMGUS.

Really your interpretation of my entire case against Triss is “I suck but Triss is worse so let’s lynch her”? I think we should lynch Triss because she’s scum, and her being scum is independent of my not so great content this game.

 

[bessie]

Counter point, why have you not explained the reads more.
You can consider this me pushing you explain the xivii read.
To answer your question I honestly assumed you were going to answer when you had time, so it's also on me.

I waited because I wanted to see if you really cared about receiving an answer, or if you just asked the question to appear as if you were scum hunting.

Xivii is actively trying to solve the game. I think D1 was not an especially good day for him with the end dominated by his argument with Ranmaru. But I see Xivii looking at the game from a wide perspective, considering multiple possibilities, reevaluating and seeing where it leads him.

jacks frustration feels town here, i don't think a scum would call people bad town if they were trying to get them to vote with them lol

Why do you assume Trisscar is town in this scenario?

 

[bessie]

Beyond any irritation with Bessie's apparent opinions on how to treat other players; Every time Bessie asks me for reasons for something, it is either something I have already addressed at least once and could easily be found by ISO-ing, and/or they ask it again several pages later with slightly different wording. That, plus their tunneling on me, is why I'm scum reading them. I made myself a very tempting target for mislynch with my initial play, and then proceeded to get voting off of myself pretty much every day since. I'd imagine that is very frustrating for mafia to deal with.

In other words, your reason for scum reading me is OMGUS.

 

[Jackrito]

No that's not what you said. This is what you said:


So you're saying adding a role like GF is not something Osie would do, because it is passive and he is more likely to add a targeting role? Like... framer or tailor?


Just to be clear, are you saying that one of your reasons for town reading Triss is because Wiisp was town reading her on D2? This was Wiisp's final scum team pick, do you trust these reads too?



Really your interpretation of my entire case against Triss is “I suck but Triss is worse so let’s lynch her”? I think we should lynch Triss because she’s scum, and her being scum is independent of my not so great content this game.

Yes I do think he would do that, but not sure if it would be that simple as a framer, he likes to overcomplicate things at times to stop mod gaming attempts.

On Wisp's last team in hindsight it is bad at the time though I still agree with it Pythag and Logic were not playing great anyone who says otherwise is using recency biased to make themselves look better. They are more reasons to me not wanting Triss lynch today then that though.

No that is not your entire case but that is what the post I responded to sounded like, as someone who calls themselves reactive and appears to have deep thinking about the game. I find it weird how much focus you put on one person in a game where they would have to be 3 others as her teammates. Your other scum reads are Spak and DB who I don't really see as a team with her. I struggle to find anyone in a team with her like I keep saying.

 

[bessie]

So is the game low power or not? Being able nullify the cop due to bad cop play is the definition of this. This is what Bessie and I were trying to describe as anti-claim mechanic. And it goes with osie’s philosophy as you’re describing: we couldn’t just claim and play follow the cop because doing so makes them useless. Instead, cop is rewarded for good cop play, avoiding detection by scum and avoiding being put in a claim position.

I’d like every to state whether they agree or disagree with my bloody bad logic that Fonti being alive indicates that either:

A. Fonti is scum.
B. There is a manipulation role.

+1, QFT, etc.

Lynch pool: Trisscar, Jack, TBD

 

[Deadbananas]

I waited because I wanted to see if you really cared about receiving an answer, or if you just asked the question to appear as if you were scum hunting.

Xivii is actively trying to solve the game. I think D1 was not an especially good day for him with the end dominated by his argument with Ranmaru. But I see Xivii looking at the game from a wide perspective, considering multiple possibilities, reevaluating and seeing where it leads him.

I don't really buy that you were just waiting to see if I cared, but whatever.

I really haven't seen much of that, from what I've seen he was going for Jack D2, Jack got checked as VT by Fonti, and Xivii kept pushing him, and Xivii is still pushing him today.

I think you just threw in some buzzwords to explain your read.

I'm willing to lynch Bessie or Xivii today.

Why do you assume Trisscar is town in this scenario?

In that post Jack was referring to multiple people as bad town I felt. Currently I'm not sure whether Triss is town in this scenario, but Im leaning towards since I don't see any other reason for scum to have kept obvtown Fonti alive besides to frame Triss and try to force an easy lynch, besides hoping some town would push Fonti for it. Out of those options I think the possibility of a framer of some sort is higher.

 

[fontisian]

Bananas or Xivii, for me.

 

[Jackrito]

We are not going to agree on a lynch are we. Not a shock when we likely only have one more town then scum, I would only do a lynch on Bessie Xivii and Mala. I can maybe go to DB also but not as confident in that as I was start of the day.