Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[Jackrito]

Will post more once after work and did not mean to multi post there

 

[fontisian]

Alright crackpot time. With how the deaths are and how we have yet to kill a single scum I think its quite obvious that as others have stated at least one of the role trusted towns is a scum. I feel like with how we have missed town so often and had major town wagons as competitors like Pythag and Logic last night that this would be a more influential person, I feel the most likely candidate for this then is Fonti. Looking back something start to fit into place with the role aspect of that slot, the wagon aspect, and the interaction aspect.

Spoiler: Role Aspect

Fonti says they checked boom Night 1 because they felt they weren't playing like a power role, which presumably means they were searching for someone to clear, they said in post #1173 that they were searching for someone Vanilla or Maf, but the later part doesn't make sense, since the role Fonti has only checks for Vanilla, so in order to think they could check for Maf they would have to feel strongly that boom was not a power role, when they admitted they had not read that much of the game so I don't know why they would have such a strong opinion. They also would of certainly read the part about Trisscar claiming vanilla town and if they were searching for a vanilla to confirm that would of been the play. The boom role check makes sense to me if Xivii is a scum mate of Fonti and since boom sent Xivii the message confirming that boom is town, Xivii would know boom has a power role and thus it would be easy for Fonti to claim that and add credibility to their role. There may be other ways of getting the info, but I just don't see this being the check a town Fonti makes for the reasons she stated.

Spoiler: Wagon Aspect

lets take a look at the day 1 end of day vote count.
I will only be coloring confirmed town that we all know of.
Trisscar (1) - Spak
Deadbananas (1) - Sabrar
Handorin (6) - Z25, Xivii, Pythag, Jackrito, Bessie, BoomFrog
Z25 (6) - LaserGuy, Ranmaru, 3DSNinja, Malakandra, Deadbananas, Handorin
Bessie (1) - Trisscar

Not voting: LogicoftheVI
I know for a fact I am town, and I am inclined to believe Deadbananas is town. I think the Handorin wagon was built up as a counter to the Z25 wagon. According to the VC by Handorin in post #1062, and the general thread the Z25 wagon had been starting to build when the Handorin wagon was launched, presumably because it was an easier target to try to get people to lynch considering Handorin is Handorin, I think Jack says it best in post #1098. Note then Jack and Bessie jump on Handorin later on after Z25 starts to gain some last second voters as well. This reads to me as a last second play to save a scummate.

Spoiler: Interaction Aspect

Jack said its very important to be able to build a scum team around a person in LyLo, I think Fonti fits all the requirements of having a team.
Their start of today was weird with them not mentioning their result on Trisscar right off the bat, then saying later in #3329 that they aren't sure whether to share the result. Which saying that is just pointless since its just causes confusion and the result should of course be shared with everyone. There being the possibility of a framer of some sort changes a lot if that was true. This is where I bring up Jack. Jack also had a very weird start to today. Immediately voting is not a great look for a town. Jack's post #3360 believes the Handorin wagon was orchestrated, which I agree with, but they claim Handorin and Triss were counter wagons against DB, for reasoning that (whats in quotation marks I don't want to risk losing all this work by going to a different page so Im copying from another tab its post #3346) "Triss and Hando were the counter wagons to DB. This is important because the DB wagon was full of dead townies now so this means the counter wagons were likely scum motivated." Triss being the counterwagon to DB can be directly disproved in VC 1.4 since Triss had 5 votes on them before Deadbananas even had one. Now I can see the argument for the Handorin wagon being formed as a counter to DB a bit more since DB did gain substantially. more votes at one point. But DB had a lot of votes on him for a while and the Handorin wagon started to really grow when the Z25 wagon rose. This is Jackrito and Fonti working together and they are the basis of the scumteam.
The other member I have talked about is Xivii. Xivii is a very weird part as I feel this is the best explanation for boom, but Xivii has been clashing with Fonti and Jack for a while. This could be an attempt to distance as really just Fonti needs to live till the end since everyone was townreading her hard at that point. Ultimately the connection of Xivii to Fonti is the weak link so far as I have a very hard time reading Xivii.

I feel Fonti is scum for all these reasons, and what like to hear everyone's opinion on this. I know this is a lot to read, I kind of just let all my thoughts go since I figure we have been missing something this whole time and the pieces here make me think its Fonti. From what I've read of Lylo its bad to vote without a talk with everyone.


P.S. If your reading this English teacher (I know you play Smash Bros) I actually used the three paragraph essay structure in real life, I apologize for ever whining about it.

First off, if you're town, thank you for not voting right away. We're in a bad spot and likely to lose anyway, but this gives us a chance.

I'll try to address your points in order.

1. I didn't check Boomfrog because I thought he wasn't a powerrole, I checked him because he was my best guess for mafia. I use the word "guess" because I really didn't have enough information at the time to go for a strong scumread, and this was instead a gut reaction to Boomfrog's push on Trisscar at the beginning of Day 1. I did think he was less likely to be a power role than rand, both because he felt like scum and because the level of aggression he displayed at the beginning of the Day doesn't usually come from your usual protective type roles. That was again, just a guess though, because many people play differently, and I didn't have enough knowledge of anyone in this game to really say what they would do. I'm a little better in that regard now, though I not as much as I want to be.

I did see Trisscar claim vanilla. I think it's fair to say I made a mistake in not checking her that Night, and that doing so could have made this game play out very differently. I'll own that. I didn't check her at the time because I felt, and on some level still feel, that her early claim almost always comes from town, and that her reasoning for it checks out with her previous experience with games like Town of Salem. My mistake, I think, was looking for scum instead of town to clear. I did not understand that the Neapolitan's preferred usage was to clear town, because a.I have never played with this role before, b. since the role was outed, likely shortening my time in the game, I couldn't aim for a late game reveal of a bunch of clears and c.this game was advertised to me as low power, which I took to me very few power roles, thus a not-vanilla check would have meant finding scum /most/ of the time. This same reasoning is why I checked Jack, who I also felt was likely scum, though I no longer feel that way. I only checked Trisscar because I thought Sabrar would shoot her if I didn't.

If Trisscar is mafia, I have likely singlehandedly lost this game for town, both by my unwillingness to check her, and my inability to see the obvious in my check on her now. If that is the case, I will accept the blame for this when the game ends. However, the fear of that outcome isn't enough to make me change my mind here, and I think the evidence (that scum should have 100% shot me by now if Trisscar is indeed scum) points against it. I ready to accept some post-game anger about this if I'm wrong.

2. I think your assessment of the wagon is fair from your knowledge, and it's the part of your case that most makes me believe you may be town. I ask you to consider that town sometimes wagon up town, with no help from the scumteam at all, and if you, me and db were all town, then the scum team did not need to add to the wagon on Z to save any teammates. If you and I are town, but DB is mafia, then him voting for me, and some partners voting for Handorin was all DB needed to not be threatened that Day.

3. I think this part is less fair. I'm in a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with my checks, by virtue of not dying when I should have on previous Nights. I cannot know if the checks are trustworthy, and when I share them, I risk town falling into the exact assumptions scum wanted us to make by leaving me alive and letting me make these checks. By sharing my check on Trisscar, I risk a town believing it and voting her, potentially ending the game if she is also town. I agree that it is better, ultimately, to trust in my fellow town to make the best decisions they can with as much information as I can provide, and that's why I shared the check, after talking about not voting abruptly.

Iirc, Trisscar was wagoned early in on Day 1, and then wagoned again later in the Day. The second wagon is the one Jack was talking about as a counter-wagon to DB.

Jack is my strongest townread. It has nothing to do with the check and everything to do with how he's playing. Jack is trying to solve the game, he is looking back and bouncing ideas and reconsidering his perspective constantly. The biggest difference between town and scum in this game is that town need to solve, and scum already have everything solved for them. Today, they are just waiting for one town to make a mistake so they can jump in and end this. They do not want to put themselves out there like Jack is doing, and risk making enemies by calling people out. Jack is town because he still has the will to win this game, and is acting on it.

Your attack on him for immediately voting is not fair. Sometimes town do not think the consequences of their actions through, and scum!Jack would likely be much more aware that voting early in lylo risks a situation where a town would have to conclude that there is at least one scum in Jack and Sabrar (the person he voted).

I'm waffling on whether your case is a real attempt to solve the game, or one of the reasons I have been left alive, if the scumteam believes they can get a town to vote for me. I think DB's reaction to it, at least, is argument against you two being scum together. I'd like to see you respond to this, and figure that out.

 

[Sabrar]

Why is DB role if true too strong to be scum?

I feel that causing the Vig to misfire is very powerful as it creates a +2 difference in total for scum (instead of -1 scum we have -1 town). Even a standard redirector is less powerful (for the purposes of affecting the Vig-shot) because the original target might have been town as well in which case the difference is 0.

 

[fontisian]

Man, Trisscar not showing up at all is giving me this sinking feeling.

 

[fontisian]

I feel that causing the Vig to misfire is very powerful as it creates a +2 difference in total for scum (instead of -1 scum we have -1 town). Even a standard redirector is less powerful (for the purposes of affecting the Vig-shot) because the original target might have been town as well in which case the difference is 0.

Didn't DB claim that his role can only be used on himself, though? If that's true, then this would only a problem if you specifically vigged DB, whereas a standard scum redirector could have protected whoever they thought was most likely to get shot on the scumteam. If anything, DB's role is weaker than the average scum redirector.

 

[Sabrar]

Man, Trisscar not showing up at all is giving me this sinking feeling.

Trisscar - 0 (V/LA)

Looks like it's irl related.

Didn't DB claim that his role can only be used on himself, though? If that's true, then this would only a problem if you specifically vigged DB, whereas a standard scum redirector could have protected whoever they thought was most likely to get shot on the scumteam. If anything, DB's role is weaker than the average scum redirector.

I considered this but scum!DB could draw the vig-shot to themselves, especially if we're voting on it.

 

[Malakandra]

1. I didn't check Boomfrog because I thought he wasn't a powerrole, I checked him because he was my best guess for mafia. I use the word "guess" because I really didn't have enough information at the time to go for a strong scumread, and this was instead a gut reaction to Boomfrog's push on Trisscar at the beginning of Day 1. I did think he was less likely to be a power role than rand, both because he felt like scum and because the level of aggression he displayed at the beginning of the Day doesn't usually come from your usual protective type roles. That was again, just a guess though, because many people play differently, and I didn't have enough knowledge of anyone in this game to really say what they would do. I'm a little better in that regard now, though I not as much as I want to be.

I did see Trisscar claim vanilla. I think it's fair to say I made a mistake in not checking her that Night, and that doing so could have made this game play out very differently. I'll own that. I didn't check her at the time because I felt, and on some level still feel, that her early claim almost always comes from town, and that her reasoning for it checks out with her previous experience with games like Town of Salem. My mistake, I think, was looking for scum instead of town to clear. I did not understand that the Neapolitan's preferred usage was to clear town, because a.I have never played with this role before, b. since the role was outed, likely shortening my time in the game, I couldn't aim for a late game reveal of a bunch of clears and c.this game was advertised to me as low power, which I took to me very few power roles, thus a not-vanilla check would have meant finding scum /most/ of the time. This same reasoning is why I checked Jack, who I also felt was likely scum, though I no longer feel that way. I only checked Trisscar because I thought Sabrar would shoot her if I didn't.

If Trisscar is mafia, I have likely singlehandedly lost this game for town, both by my unwillingness to check her, and my inability to see the obvious in my check on her now. If that is the case, I will accept the blame for this when the game ends. However, the fear of that outcome isn't enough to make me change my mind here, and I think the evidence (that scum should have 100% shot me by now if Trisscar is indeed scum) points against it. I ready to accept some post-game anger about this if I'm wrong.

Alright, I can understand this. Town can make mistakes, I've made a lot so pushing you for something like this is unreasonable, since you admitted you were wrong. I get what you mean about Triss, I'd like them to have been checked night 1, but I understand.

2. I think your assessment of the wagon is fair from your knowledge, and it's the part of your case that most makes me believe you may be town. I ask you to consider that town sometimes wagon up town, with no help from the scumteam at all, and if you, me and db were all town, then the scum team did not need to add to the wagon on Z to save any teammates. If you and I are town, but DB is mafia, then him voting for me, and some partners voting for Handorin was all DB needed to not be threatened that Day.

Im operating under the assumption that if both wagons were town, one scum could of easily unvoted for Handorin or switched to get it to not be a tie so a town lynch goes through. This would not have made them look particularly suspicious at all. I don't see why scum would want for a member of town not to die there. I don't think DB was threatened at the time he voted you, his wagon was gone, and his vote just made him look more suspicious when he could of stayed on Handorin.

3. I think this part is less fair. I'm in a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with my checks, by virtue of not dying when I should have on previous Nights. I cannot know if the checks are trustworthy, and when I share them, I risk town falling into the exact assumptions scum wanted us to make by leaving me alive and letting me make these checks. By sharing my check on Trisscar, I risk a town believing it and voting her, potentially ending the game if she is also town. I agree that it is better, ultimately, to trust in my fellow town to make the best decisions they can with as much information as I can provide, and that's why I shared the check, after talking about not voting abruptly.

Iirc, Trisscar was wagoned early in on Day 1, and then wagoned again later in the Day. The second wagon is the one Jack was talking about as a counter-wagon to DB.

Jack is my strongest townread. It has nothing to do with the check and everything to do with how he's playing. Jack is trying to solve the game, he is looking back and bouncing ideas and reconsidering his perspective constantly. The biggest difference between town and scum in this game is that town need to solve, and scum already have everything solved for them. Today, they are just waiting for one town to make a mistake so they can jump in and end this. They do not want to put themselves out there like Jack is doing, and risk making enemies by calling people out. Jack is town because he still has the will to win this game, and is acting on it.

Your attack on him for immediately voting is not fair. Sometimes town do not think the consequences of their actions through, and scum!Jack would likely be much more aware that voting early in lylo risks a situation where a town would have to conclude that there is at least one scum in Jack and Sabrar (the person he voted).

I'm waffling on whether your case is a real attempt to solve the game, or one of the reasons I have been left alive, if the scumteam believes they can get a town to vote for me. I think DB's reaction to it, at least, is argument against you two being scum together. I'd like to see you respond to this, and figure that out.

Oh, I'll admit I'm mistaken on the trisscar situation then. I did not check as thoroughly as I should have what votes Jack was talking about, I still think its unlikely to be a counter wagon since Trisscar had already formed before and still had some dregs on it, but I'll admit I was wrong here.

I got the impression from Jack that he has played a lot before, so I figured they would not vote immediately in Lylo and leave it sitting for a bit. This is a weak argument and I'll have to look back at Jack over all again.

I think DB's reaction looks towny, might be my bias here. Except for the fact that he apparently made the same mistake on the trisscar counter wagon point I did. My main reasoning for town DB is I don't see him and Sabrar being scum together since it would be way easier to shoot Ninja directly, and I don't see Town Sabrar and scum DB working since DB only being able to switch a kill between himself and a townie would mean that DB could just target a confirmed town every night, and if sabrar shot him sabrar then kills the confirmed town and can't kill DB. It seems to powerful for a scum to have IMO.

 

[Jackrito]

Alright, I can understand this. Town can make mistakes, I've made a lot so pushing you for something like this is unreasonable, since you admitted you were wrong. I get what you mean about Triss, I'd like them to have been checked night 1, but I understand.




Im operating under the assumption that if both wagons were town, one scum could of easily unvoted for Handorin or switched to get it to not be a tie so a town lynch goes through. This would not have made them look particularly suspicious at all. I don't see why scum would want for a member of town not to die there. I don't think DB was threatened at the time he voted you, his wagon was gone, and his vote just made him look more suspicious when he could of stayed on Handorin.


Oh, I'll admit I'm mistaken on the trisscar situation then. I did not check as thoroughly as I should have what votes Jack was talking about, I still think its unlikely to be a counter wagon since Trisscar had already formed before and still had some dregs on it, but I'll admit I was wrong here.

I got the impression from Jack that he has played a lot before, so I figured they would not vote immediately in Lylo and leave it sitting for a bit. This is a weak argument and I'll have to look back at Jack over all again.

I think DB's reaction looks towny, might be my bias here. Except for the fact that he apparently made the same mistake on the trisscar counter wagon point I did. My main reasoning for town DB is I don't see him and Sabrar being scum together since it would be way easier to shoot Ninja directly, and I don't see Town Sabrar and scum DB working since DB only being able to switch a kill between himself and a townie would mean that DB could just target a confirmed town every night, and if sabrar shot him sabrar then kills the confirmed town and can't kill DB. It seems to powerful for a scum to have IMO.

I have played a lot yes, but on a really bad run at the moment as this game is showing, that vote was done more out of anger and annoyance at being wrong on Logic, not the best reason but my reason all the same. I also was thinking Sabrar was scum because of the BP flip and him maybe being a claim vig. His play this game has being decent though at a lot better then some on review. So leaving that for today.

Also me as scum voting in Lylo only works if my team are there to fast hammer if a townie votes with me.

I mean you say it is way easier for them to shoot ninja if scum together which is true, so how do we know for sure he did not. We only think he shot DB and it got flipped to Ninja because both claimed it happened, so this point does not hold up if both are scum. They is a lot up for debate here since DB role could be something really different and its all a lie.

 

[Jackrito]

Didn't DB claim that his role can only be used on himself, though? If that's true, then this would only a problem if you specifically vigged DB, whereas a standard scum redirector could have protected whoever they thought was most likely to get shot on the scumteam. If anything, DB's role is weaker than the average scum redirector.

If scum had some form of redirection that could mess up a vanilla check on Triss also, it seems we have a lot of roles to do with targeting one person, so a scum redirector would make sense imo. It can mess up the vig and and the vanilla checks.

This assuming Triss is town which I'm not even sure about, but really don't want to lose today by mislynching that slot, since them being scum has a lot of issues and I'm not gambleing today on her.

 

[Sabrar]

If scum had some form of redirection that could mess up a vanilla check on Triss also, it seems we have a lot of roles to do with targeting one person, so a scum redirector would make sense imo. It can mess up the vig and and the vanilla checks.

Roles may exist which change a player's target. A player will always learn if their target has been changed, but will not learn of their new target's identity unless they learn information about their target.

Why do I have to quote this again?

 

[Jackrito]

Why do I have to quote this again?

Ok fair point, still not used to that sort of ruins the whole point of redirection.

 

[fontisian]

Incorrect. As I said in the next post you quoted I believed it to be perfectly reasonable for Ninja to have a mentor if it was unrelated to his role. I only disbelieved it when he claimed that the mentor was because of the role he received.

Ok, that makes sense.

I. Don't. Bus.
Especially not on D1.

Not to nitpick, but that's exactly what someone would say if they were going to bus. Why don't you bus?

 

[fontisian]

Im operating under the assumption that if both wagons were town, one scum could of easily unvoted for Handorin or switched to get it to not be a tie so a town lynch goes through. This would not have made them look particularly suspicious at all. I don't see why scum would want for a member of town not to die there. I don't think DB was threatened at the time he voted you, his wagon was gone, and his vote just made him look more suspicious when he could of stayed on Handorin.

My guess is scum didn't know the vote was tied, and they were likely just as confused as town at eod. I've only even seen scum deliberately cause I tie to save a partner, and I know that's not what happened there. I also got the impression that people didn't even know that a tie would cause a no kill. On other sites, that kind of situation would have resulted in the mod doing a coinflip to decide who died.

II got the impression from Jack that he has played a lot before, so I figured they would not vote immediately in Lylo and leave it sitting for a bit. This is a weak argument and I'll have to look back at Jack over all again.

That's fair, I'll him defend himself on that. My two cents is that town are more likely to vote without thinking in lylo than scum, because scum are poised for the win.

I think DB's reaction looks towny, might be my bias here. Except for the fact that he apparently made the same mistake on the trisscar counter wagon point I did. My main reasoning for town DB is I don't see him and Sabrar being scum together since it would be way easier to shoot Ninja directly, and I don't see Town Sabrar and scum DB working since DB only being able to switch a kill between himself and a townie would mean that DB could just target a confirmed town every night, and if sabrar shot him sabrar then kills the confirmed town and can't kill DB. It seems to powerful for a scum to have IMO.

Can you talk about what specifically looks towny in DB's reactions? Maybe quote the posts, and explain your reasoning?

I think DB could have lied about his role, potentially, if both he and Sabrar are scum, in order to justify Sabrar shooting 3DS when he claimed later. DB's claim is that he was effectively vanilla after N1, so he doesn't have to explain why he lived to Today, so he could potentially have just been a mafia goon all along. And if we ever killed one of DB or Sabrar, the scum team would be able to argue the other was town because of the vig shot.

I also don't think DB's role is all that powerful, as claimed. Like, it only works once and it offers no protection to the rest of the scum. It's not much more powerful than a 1-shot bulletproof vest.

We're good on everything else you said, I'm just not quoting it to save space.

 

[fontisian]

I do think we need to consider killing the roles Today, even if that means talking about me as well.
Confirmed roles wise we've had:
Boomfrog: Friendly Neighbor
3DS: The out of thread shadow player thing
Pythag: 2-shot Bulleproof

And the unconfirmed are:
Me: Neapolitan
Sabrar: Odd-night vig
DB: Busdriver redirecter that becomes vanilla

We know that scum must have some way to deal with my check, or I wouldn't be alive. We also know that Sabrar has a odd-night kill, and that if Sabrar is telling the truth (which is a big if) his kill did get redirected from DB to 3DS. That seems like two much power for how Osie described the game.

 

[fontisian]

If all the claims are true, that would mean we had 6 power roles, 4 mafia and only 6 vanillas in a "low power" game. That doesn't make sense.

 

[fontisian]

Day 4 Activity Check 1​

Jackrito - 5+
fontisian - 5+
Deadbananas - 5+
Sabrar - 5+
Malakandra - 5
bessie - 5+
Spak - 5+ (I guess)

Xivii - 2
Trisscar - 0 (V/LA)

Xivii has been prodded.

Heh, the shade is real.

 

[fontisian]

Mala the problem with this is you have to get all of town to agree on a person to lynch them in Lylo. I doubt you will get all of town to vote with you for Fonti here as I don't think Fonti is the right play today. If you are town and are convinced on this you should focus on finding that 4th person and making a case on them today as I don't think Fonti is in the lynch pool for most town. Some of your points are good from your perspective, like the one about the wagon. And I can see it too, but thats because we are both the other people on it, so that means we only have to think one other person is town for that to happen. Town off that have to think two people are town to get that argument so its not great for convincing other town members. Your best point is on Jackrito for saying that Triss was a counter wagon to me when Triss came first.

Bananas, do you think I am scum or not? You're implicitly encouraging Mala to scumread me while voting elsewhere, but you completely leave out your point of view.

 

[Xivii]

Will be back later today. I’ve just been waiting for when I can isolate myself and read through on a computer.

 

[bessie]

Sorry I meant to return to this last night but I fell asleep.

I feel Fonti is scum for all these reasons, and what like to hear everyone's opinion on this. I know this is a lot to read, I kind of just let all my thoughts go since I figure we have been missing something this whole time and the pieces here make me think its Fonti. From what I've read of Lylo its bad to vote without a talk with everyone.

Your post feels to me like you started with a specific target, and are looking for evidence to support your scum read, rather than looking at the big picture and seeing where it leads you.

I think your argument under “role aspect” is weak because Fonti replaced in a game that already had a lot of content, and had to select a target before interacting with anyone in the thread. I think you have some valid observations under “interaction aspect” , like Jack voting at day start. I don’t see any issue with Fonti’s withholding her result until Trisscar showed up, but I agree her reason in #3329 is odd because we likely were going to discuss before voting. Note that I have a scum read on Trisscar so that will affect my read of this.

 

[bessie]

I feel it makes a scum vig more likely then a town vig, we clearly have some form of vig or maybe a potential Sk based off the kills each night. I just don't feel good game design is to have a town vig and a bulleproof town it is just a waste of the vig shot.

How so? The vig can't be sure if they’re shooting town or scum, so the shot is wasted in the sense that no one dies, which is better than killing town.

Scum are keeping our PRs alive to keep distrust in us high or they have a way to manipulate them. That is more likely reason for their shot on that slot also because Toko was pretty active mafia would perfer a dead game state so it is easier to control.

I kinda think that it’s more likely there was no point for scum to kill Sabrar last night. If he’s odd night and all kills are simultaneous (making an assumption based on experience with other games and other mods), then killing Sabrar last night doesn’t stop his shot. And he has no power on even nights so he's safe to leave alive for another day, and take a chance on hitting another town power role, or as you said, a more active player.

 

[bessie]

I wanted the vig to claim D2 because I've mostly played with one-shot vigs, so I thought there'd be no disadvantage to a townsperson claiming as a vig after the shot was gone. It'd help clarify some confusion, and then even if we ended up killing one of the slots, it'd give us really good info to read the other person. I figured it would get more info out there, and the benefits of a claim right there outweighed the costs. Had I known it was an odd night vig, I'd have held off a bit.

And when the vig didn’t claim, did you not consider that they might have a good reason? And I still don’t see why you think it was important to have this information out there on D2, when it wasn’t needed to prevent a mislynch.

 

[bessie]

If all the claims are true, that would mean we had 6 power roles, 4 mafia and only 6 vanillas in a "low power" game. That doesn't make sense.

It would depend on Osie’s definition of “relatively low power”.

 

[Deadbananas]

Bananas, do you think I am scum or not? You're implicitly encouraging Mala to scumread me while voting elsewhere, but you completely leave out your point of view.

I'm not sure what I think of you, other than I don't want to lynch you today. Im encouraging Mala to try to look into who he thinks would fit, and evaluate as a whole then, instead of gunning straight for the most unlikely target to be considered by town, and who has been helping town a lot. Im reformulating my reads on everyone currently as I re read through.

 

[Deadbananas]

If all the claims are true, that would mean we had 6 power roles, 4 mafia and only 6 vanillas in a "low power" game. That doesn't make sense.

I think you are just looking at the numbers and not evaluating the actual power of the power roles.
We don't seem to have a doctor of some sort, or they've missed everytime and not revealed, we have a vanilla cop instead of an actual cop, we have an odd night vig, we have a bullet proof which just adds some survivability, we have a kill driver who can just switch kills between themself, and a role with a mentor that they can bring into to use it up. Even if all of these are true I still feel thats pretty low power, most roles haven't affected the game that much besides yours.

 

[Deadbananas]

Oh and the friendly neighbour, who I'll admit is fairly powerful, but I don't think this pushes the game as a whole into higher than relatively low power, power

 

[Malakandra]

I mean you say it is way easier for them to shoot ninja if scum together which is true, so how do we know for sure he did not. We only think he shot DB and it got flipped to Ninja because both claimed it happened, so this point does not hold up if both are scum. They is a lot up for debate here since DB role could be something really different and its all a lie.

I don't see why DB would say if anything if he was not a redirector in this case. But yes it is up to debate, I just see the simplest solution and most plausible solution as the one that has been layed out by DB and Sabrar their actions before and after fit. Sabrar voting DB day 1 makes it plausible he shot at DB and Sabrar reaction of trusting DB afterwords feels pure and natural.

 

[Jackrito]

I sort of want a Bessie lynch today, intrested in peoples thoughts on this. I still think DB is most likely scum out of power roles but not willing to gamble on that and being wrong and losing. I want an actual scum flip before risking that and Bessie feels like a good fit.

I'm in a position today where I don't want to lynch Fonti, Triss, Sabrar and DB. Reasons for not wanting to vote there is I feel too much risk in being wrong. Which leaves me with Bessie Spak Xivii and Mala. Bessie and Spak feel like they will hit more personally, I'm really not sure how I feel about Mala's case on Fonti because it can come from either side.

Whoever is town here with me though we need to get on the same page, which is going to be a pain based off how much we all distrust each other. Which is why I think we should come to a early focus group to discuss and that is mine.

 

[Malakandra]

Can you talk about what specifically looks towny in DB's reactions? Maybe quote the posts, and explain your reasoning?

I assumed this was the post we were talking about.

Mala the problem with this is you have to get all of town to agree on a person to lynch them in Lylo. I doubt you will get all of town to vote with you for Fonti here as I don't think Fonti is the right play today. If you are town and are convinced on this you should focus on finding that 4th person and making a case on them today as I don't think Fonti is in the lynch pool for most town. Some of your points are good from your perspective, like the one about the wagon. And I can see it too, but thats because we are both the other people on it, so that means we only have to think one other person is town for that to happen. Town off that have to think two people are town to get that argument so its not great for convincing other town members. Your best point is on Jackrito for saying that Triss was a counter wagon to me when Triss came first.

I don't think scum would tell me not to push someone, since they could of just pushed harder for me to vote and then hammered if you were scum, and I don't think you and banana fit in a scum team together.

I feel the talk about the perspective on the wagon section is a natural argument and not faked, the only part I don't like is him also agreeing about my mistake about the triss wagon coming before him, but he could of forgotten too, so I'd be a hypocrite to push that.

 

[Jackrito]

I don't see why DB would say if anything if he was not a redirector in this case. But yes it is up to debate, I just see the simplest solution and most plausible solution as the one that has been layed out by DB and Sabrar their actions before and after fit. Sabrar voting DB day 1 makes it plausible he shot at DB and Sabrar reaction of trusting DB afterwords feels pure and natural.

I feel Sabrar doing it is natural, and I liked their play which is why I'm backing off there. I just have issues with what benefit DB role has as town, also why he says something first. its called getting ahead of the curve to look more town. Once the vig saw someone else died it would lead to suspison on the person they shot first. So a good way to avoid that is to claim and try to look pure. I could be wrong on all this though which is why I'm putting all the claims on the backburner for now.

 

[Malakandra]

I sort of want a Bessie lynch today, intrested in peoples thoughts on this. I still think DB is most likely scum out of power roles but not willing to gamble on that and being wrong and losing. I want an actual scum flip before risking that and Bessie feels like a good fit.

I'm in a position today where I don't want to lynch Fonti, Triss, Sabrar and DB. Reasons for not wanting to vote there is I feel too much risk in being wrong. Which leaves me with Bessie Spak Xivii and Mala. Bessie and Spak feel like they will hit more personally, I'm really not sure how I feel about Mala's case on Fonti because it can come from either side.

Whoever is town here with me though we need to get on the same page, which is going to be a pain based off how much we all distrust each other. Which is why I think we should come to a early focus group to discuss and that is mine.

Bessie has not stood out to me in anyway, I barely remember anything about them besides they jumped on Handorin near last second day 1, and were mentioned quite a bit as vagually scummy by people yesterday but not really pushed much. Could you outline your reasoning on Bessie here?

 

[Jackrito]

I think you are just looking at the numbers and not evaluating the actual power of the power roles.
We don't seem to have a doctor of some sort, or they've missed everytime and not revealed, we have a vanilla cop instead of an actual cop, we have an odd night vig, we have a bullet proof which just adds some survivability, we have a kill driver who can just switch kills between themself, and a role with a mentor that they can bring into to use it up. Even if all of these are true I still feel thats pretty low power, most roles haven't affected the game that much besides yours.

The doc ish role would be the BP in this setup since it stops kills and can give the illusion of a doc, but we messed up and lynched that. Also a Vig and vanilla cop in a setup where most town are vanilla is pretty powerful tbh. How can you say roles had no effect apart from vanilla cop, we have 2 dead town because of the vig and your supposed role. We also had a role that can confirm itself. The key to this game was making a town core through the checks and have vig shoot out of it. We failed to make a town core though and have proper discussions to make the best of our abilities.

 

[Malakandra]

I feel Sabrar doing it is natural, and I liked their play which is why I'm backing off there. I just have issues with what benefit DB role has as town, also why he says something first. its called getting ahead of the curve to look more town. Once the vig saw someone else died it would lead to suspison on the person they shot first. So a good way to avoid that is to claim and try to look pure. I could be wrong on all this though which is why I'm putting all the claims on the backburner for now.

The only way the getting ahead of the curve works is if he actually has that role though, or if he was a general redirector and targeted himself which I don't think is a great play, but thats reading into what I think good plays are. It just leaves us in a place of whether we think his role is town or scum, I feel its more town but I can see your reasoning as to why you think its scum even if I disagree. I'll agree to put claimed roles on a back burner here as well since it is important for town to be unified and those are probably the least likely to get a unified vote onto them from what I've seen.

 

[Jackrito]

Bessie has not stood out to me in anyway, I barely remember anything about them besides they jumped on Handorin near last second day 1, and were mentioned quite a bit as vagually scummy by people yesterday but not really pushed much. Could you outline your reasoning on Bessie here?

I'm still rereading but I would say a lack of hard stances, she has just being in the background a lot and never really being pushed. They is their weird interactions with Xivii as well which I talked about eariler which bother me since I feel Xivii is likely scum still. Its hard to make a case on someone who does not do a lot. I just want to get some discussion going on a POE and see where we all stand on different people also.

 

[Malakandra]

Obviously I would not put myself in the PoE, and I would put Trisscar in there. other than that I think its a good place to look today. I hope Triss comes back soon.

 

[fontisian]

I do think we hit most scum in Spak, Bessie, Xivii and Mala. Maybe those first three plus Mala or Bananas?

 

[Jackrito]

I'm really having issues trying to find a 4 man team that works.

 

[Malakandra]

I do think we hit most scum in Spak, Bessie, Xivii and Mala. Maybe those first three plus Mala or Bananas?

Aren't I already in there lol.

 

[Jackrito]

I do think we hit most scum in Spak, Bessie, Xivii and Mala. Maybe those first three plus Mala or Bananas?

Maybe I'm wrong on Triss their play in my back read is so weird, and she was hated by most still alive here though which means we had some heavy bussing which is a pain to think about.

 

[fontisian]

Aren't I already in there lol.

I'm saying I can see a team of Spak/Bessie/Xivii with you or Bananas being the fourth.

 

[fontisian]

Maybe I'm wrong on Triss their play in my back read is so weird, and she was hated by most still alive here though which means we had some heavy bussing which is a pain to think about.

I definitely want to talk to her before throwing any votes down.