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Suggestion To the SBR: A Teams Construction Guide

adumbrodeus

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Ok, so we know you guys are all out there in the backroom with your tea and crumpets, and discussing how amazing playing "gay" is, but how about an interesting little project?


Yes, that was a joke, and it wasn't intended to come off as backhanded.



Teams play, unfortunately too often ignored, is a very interesting part of the smash metagame. While there is advice, on it, there's pretty never been any SBR official word on it.


Unfortunately, a tier-list is semi-useless because teams is dependent on character synergy, so two top tier characters could pair relatively poorly, but two low tier characters could pair amazingly well, no matter how you define the rational for a tierlist.


So what I suggest is something that could tell players HOW to construct viable teams.

My initial thoughts on the topic were that such a guide should start by defining the primary roles that characters can have in teams (ex. Stock tank (I think this needs two types, one for those that survive forever on their own, and another for those that are like melee Ganondorf, can survive forever, but you'll be knocked right back without assistance), Wall, Bum-rusher, punisher, etc).


Next should be a ranking of all the characters in how well they fullfill the role in a team.



From there, it needs a primer on pairing characters together, in other words, the basic archtypes which are powerful (keeping in mind that you'll probably be basing these on a combination of emphasizing many roles because most characters have more then one distinct roll in a team that they're good at).


On the archtypes themselves, they should have something explaining what stages they're good at, and what stages they're bad at. Also their favored stage position.




Why do I bring this to you guys' attention? Personally, I really want the information available to the community, but I don't feel at all qualified to develop this guide since I just recently became serious about doubles, and I'm pretty sure that the SBR has sufficient people who are qualified to do this.



Interested?
 

Xiahou Dun

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You should press Enter a few more times between paragraphs. Your post is really clumped up and difficult to read.
 

LooftWaffles

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You should press Enter a few more times between paragraphs. Your post is really clumped up and difficult to read.

Paragraphs beat walls of text hands down in my book.

Good idea OP, but people need to stop relying on the sbr being the only ones qualified to do smash research
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Doubles play relies on a synergy of both the characters and the players. Also, while the BBR can put together a rough guide on not screwing one of your team's characters over with a stage pick or poor character choice, I really would think it's a better idea to simply consult specialists of the characters (well, I would if the character specific boards had a shred of reliability in that regard).

Anyway, I think you're mistaking what the BBR mainly does. We build a tier list (marked "official" and stuff, but it's only really official in terms of being made by the BBR), and we write up guidelines for tournament rules. We also make decisions on rulings the community is rather split on, and give our personal recommendations regarding it.

We don't typically attempt to lecture the public on how they should play the game.
 

TP

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Doubles play relies on a synergy of both the characters and the players. Also, while the BBR can put together a rough guide on not screwing one of your team's characters over with a stage pick or poor character choice, I really would think it's a better idea to simply consult specialists of the characters (well, I would if the character specific boards had a shred of reliability in that regard).

Anyway, I think you're mistaking what the BBR mainly does. We build a tier list (marked "official" and stuff, but it's only really official in terms of being made by the BBR), and we write up guidelines for tournament rules. We also make decisions on rulings the community is rather split on, and give our personal recommendations regarding it.

We don't typically attempt to lecture the public on how they should play the game.
So you're saying that the regular people are too stupid to be trusted, and then you say that it's not your job to teach people? That's gotta be one of the worst displays of leadership I've ever seen.
 

Zankoku

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I hope regular people aren't too stupid to be trusted, but the general opinion of many people is that the guys in the character specific boards are stupid. Just because the BBR has something of a better reputation doesn't mean we should start taking on new responsibilities that are far more suited to people who actually have a greater amount of experience in each part of it.
 

-Jumpman-

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The SBR is way too lazy to make guides lol. Also, the good players wouldn't be contributing much. You can make one yourself though.
 

swordgard

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The SBR is way too lazy to make guides lol. Also, the good players wouldn't be contributing much. You can make one yourself though.

Nope, we simply have things that are more important to do. And this is not a part of our mandate. I'd rather make sure we have great tourney rules than make very bad ones and very bad guides too.
 

Zankoku

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That's one terrible excuse. The most active thread in the SBR is the social thread.
Since its creation in April, the social thread has had 2170 posts, averaging about 271 posts a month.

A certain other thread has had 153 posts in just one week.
 

-Jumpman-

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Yep, and half of it is Xyro crying for nothing.

@ Swordgard: That's when you joined, how would you know? xD
 

-Jumpman-

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The rules state I can say that, I just can't say what he said. :)

Edit: Depth? Lol, you're posting the pictures :O

Edit2: Let's stop this (= don't post these pics).
 

swordgard

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Yep, and half of it is Xyro crying for nothing.

@ Swordgard: That's when you joined, how would you know? xD

I saw enough of your posts to realize why you should not be in the SBR.


Also, you know I can actually read old topics? >.>
 

Zankoku

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I don't care about rules, I'm just asking for specifics as to where you're getting information you clearly shouldn't have access to from. :)
 

-Jumpman-

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Can't tell you that.

Edit: At least I contributed in the SBR lol, most people don't post (or even play the game).
 

MetalMusicMan

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On paper, it would be nice to have some sort of tier-list-type-thing for doubles, but as it has already been said, that would be hard to do because of character synergy. Doing the whole cast in 2v2 combinations and ranking those combinations as a "tier list" of sorts also seems good on paper, but at the same time it is a rather ridiculous amount of work.

Personally though, I would definitely be in favor of more "purples" explaining themselves more / writing more informative posts/guides. I think a large part of why that doesn't happen though is because the community is so large and full of people who have some sort of unwarranted hate towards the Back Room.

It's like people feel somehow betrayed because they didn't ban MK even though it was the "majority of the public". I don't know what planet these people who get so bent over that are from, but making decisions based on the public opinion is pretty much NEVER a good way to run ANYTHING, EVER.

I for one am glad that the SBR members, on average, have enough common sense and patience to ignore all of the ignorant flaming that they receive for not conforming to the ridiculous demands and cries for bans that the community constantly pelts them with.


When it comes down to it, the Back Room has always done a fantastic job of encouraging and enforcing loose, but essential, rules and regulations while leaving the majority of decisions up to individual tournament organizers.

This means that they are never in danger of over stepping their bounds or creating some ludicrous rule set that tears the community apart.



I'm not saying that they're infallible, but seriously what more do you whiners want from them? I'm very thankful that they haven't, thus far, allowed so much whining to tarnish the game.
 

adumbrodeus

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*sigh* Why do I feel like I accidentally hit a drama point? I'm pretty sure I know what topics Xyro would be "crying" about, but this is not saying the BBR is ineffectual, this is saying, "hey, here's a cool idea, you guys interested".

I don't think they're ineffectual, and I that impression is getting around way too much for really no reason.




My understanding was that the SBR took additional projects to benefit the community as a whole as well, and not just rulesets.


I'm not saying character boards are too stupid to be trusted, but the reality is that this isn't about any individual character, so their input, while useful, is more of the "x has these options" as opposed to the "from square one" and highly measured approach. This would also be the only viable substitute for a teams tierlist, and the category rankings would in and of itself constituted the best form of a tierlist.


The reason that I wouldn't do this myself is I don't feel qualified, I really only seriously got into teams very recently.


Furthermore, I know that there are a number of SBR players who are known for having a good knowledge of doubles overall, that's why I suggested it here. Basically, I'm asking that a sub-group that's knowledgeable and interested in doubles works on this.
 

Zankoku

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When it comes to a project besides tournament rules (e.g. tier lists) there's not much backing it besides interest among the BBR members to undertake it. So, no, we don't just go with projects that seem good, but someone back there may take interest in this, so thanks for the suggestion.
 

-Jumpman-

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*sigh* Why do I feel like I accidentally hit a drama point? I'm pretty sure I know what topics Xyro would be "crying" about, but this is not saying the BBR is ineffectual, this is saying, "hey, here's a cool idea, you guys interested".

I don't think they're ineffectual, and I that impression is getting around way too much for really no reason.




My understanding was that the SBR took additional projects to benefit the community as a whole as well, and not just rulesets.


I'm not saying character boards are too stupid to be trusted, but the reality is that this isn't about any individual character, so their input, while useful, is more of the "x has these options" as opposed to the "from square one" and highly measured approach. This would also be the only viable substitute for a teams tierlist, and the category rankings would in and of itself constituted the best form of a tierlist.


The reason that I wouldn't do this myself is I don't feel qualified, I really only seriously got into teams very recently.


Furthermore, I know that there are a number of SBR players who are known for having a good knowledge of doubles overall, that's why I suggested it here. Basically, I'm asking that a sub-group that's knowledgeable and interested in doubles works on this.
It's a very good idea and it would really help. The thing is, not all the people who know something about teams are active in the SBR (Inui is though). I think this wouldn't take years if you'd just ask those people individually.
 

adumbrodeus

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When it comes to a project besides tournament rules (e.g. tier lists) there's not much backing it besides interest among the BBR members to undertake it. So, no, we don't just go with projects that seem good, but someone back there may take interest in this, so thanks for the suggestion.
Cool, that was pretty much exactly what I was hoping for, thanks Ankoku.

It's a very good idea and it would really help. The thing is, not all the people who know something about teams are active in the SBR (Inui is though). I think this wouldn't take years if you'd just ask those people individually.
Yea, I know not everyone is knowledgeable about teams, but I know some people are.

Speaking of Inui, I actually already gave him a heads up, so I guess I'll see how it goes.
 

Overswarm

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I miss having Jumpman in the SBR.

By that I mean not at all.
 

TP

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ROFL at the most recent conversation.

Anyway, the SBR currently is pretty much completely ignored by the community. Not a single SBR member voted for Castle Siege to be banned, but it is at Pound 4. I think people don't listen to the recommendations of the SBR because they don't trust them. More guides and such would help public image a lot.

:034:
 

adumbrodeus

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ROFL at the most recent conversation.

Anyway, the SBR currently is pretty much completely ignored by the community. Not a single SBR member voted for Castle Siege to be banned, but it is at Pound 4. I think people don't listen to the recommendations of the SBR because they don't trust them. More guides and such would help public image a lot.

:034:
Twilight, it's very unlikely that it's gonna actually be banned at Pound 4, people talked to Plankkk about it, and he realized he was a bit out of the Brawl loop.


No other tournament has it illegal.
 

Overswarm

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ROFL at the most recent conversation.

Anyway, the SBR currently is pretty much completely ignored by the community. Not a single SBR member voted for Castle Siege to be banned, but it is at Pound 4. I think people don't listen to the recommendations of the SBR because they don't trust them. More guides and such would help public image a lot.

:034:
Correction:

Most people don't listen to the SBR now.
 

TP

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Twilight, it's very unlikely that it's gonna actually be banned at Pound 4, people talked to Plankkk about it, and he realized he was a bit out of the Brawl loop.


No other tournament has it illegal.
Good to hear.

Correction:

Most people don't listen to the SBR now.
I'm... not sure how that is any different from what I said, but whatever. ^_^

:034:
 

Red Arremer

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ROFL at the most recent conversation.

Anyway, the SBR currently is pretty much completely ignored by the community. Not a single SBR member voted for Castle Siege to be banned, but it is at Pound 4. I think people don't listen to the recommendations of the SBR because they don't trust them. More guides and such would help public image a lot.

:034:
Even if, it is ultimately up to the TO to decide which stage(s) they want to use. The ruleset we created is called "Recommended Ruleset", after all. If you take this recommendation and use it or not is not our problem.
 

Overswarm

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Take the SBR ruleset as a list of stages that haven't been proven to be broken in tournament play.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Take the SBR ruleset as a list of stages that haven't been proven to be broken in tournament play.
While we're at it, let's also take SBR's recommendation on King Dedede's infinite, which also must have not been proven to be broken in tournament play.
 
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