Stylin' On You! Two! A Western New York Tournament. March 13th Payout and Stages vote

[da K.I.D.]

the Melee Back Room created their stage list based on the idea that all the stages that were fair and counterpick viable are available to play on. Characters and how well they do on individual stages are NOT taken into account, because when you go by that logic every stage list you make will be biased toward or against some character(s). The fairest way to go about it is to ignore what characters win on what CPs and only include stages that are fit for competitive play.

I believe that was the logic behind the most recent SBR stage list. And I agree with it. If you want to change the current status quo, you are going to need somebody else to cosign your opinion, preferably mulitple people.

I assume Tsai is being facetious currently so he doesnt count.

also, Tsai, you are going to **** minh, the same way I do. Youre going to bait him to spin on your shield and than your going to punish it. Actually your going to **** him harder than I do because your punish on spin is WAYYYYYY better than mine.

@foy, general was taking games off of jesse last time they played. Im pretty sure minh and steve arent really getting significantly better tho.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Well the best solution is just learn the match up more and stop relying on stages?

*pulls out troll horns*

exactly, you should stop relying on gay stages like peaches castle to beat floaties

/troll

but honestly, learning the matchup is a lot more important than learning the stage. floaties have 2 stages that are bad for them, methinks: YS and PS. If one of those gets banned, you only have 1 "advantageous" stage. floaties have DL64, brinstar, and rainbow cruise. 2 of those are the most homo stages ever conceived. One of those homo stages is where foy's troll house is located. so you ban one and they still have 2 homo stages for CP.

OR

you just learn the matchup and beat them on the neutral, lose the CP on the homoboat, and win your CP.

 

[dudutsai]

Floaties Have Dl64, Brinstar, And rainbow Cruise.

No
No No No No No No No No No

 

[BluePeachy100]

But in all honesty, Rainbow Cruise is a viable CP, and Mute City isn't? Uhm.... what? I can't understand that, seeing as Brinstar is allowed, and now Floaties seem to only have 2 stages with an advantage now. Considering a campy Fox can **** you on DL, and Fox is good on Rainbow Cruise(dunno why that was considered). Brinstar is only REALLY good for Puff, Sheik, Falcon/Ganon? and (fox?) anyway.

Limiting the amount of stages to 9 only is just sad. Hell, most of what Melee one of the greatest games is the stages, that may not be the greatest factor, but still, making nuetrals the most prevelent stages is ridiculous. You can't deny the fact that some characters or even playstyles NEED those CPs.

Also, if that's what you have to say in response to the BR's decision, why is that not the case for Brawl? Why are stages like Castle Seige, Distant Planet... HANENBOW?! allowed in singles and doubles?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was thinking about a top 4/6 money placement...

im probably going to do it for the next one, but as for this one, Ill do it the same way I do all my tourney rulings.

Leave it to the people

What do YOU want the payouts to be for YOUR tournament? Its top 3 currently, would you like to pay out to 4th or even to the 2 people that place 5th?

personally i would vote against paying all the way to 5th simply because theres just not enough money to go around. the reason the midwest pays out so far for their tourneys is because their smash scenes (melee and brawl) arent connected. so therefore they run seperate events, which allows them to make their entry fees 10 dollars, instead of the 5 that I use, since my tourneys are mainly for poor college kids.

Ill pay out to 4th or whatever you guys want, its up to the community.

from the social thread, i wanted the discussion to be here.

and to answer your question BP, Because brawl and melee are different games, and because i always start with my decisions for rulings then leave it up to the community to decide.

 

[Foy]

*pulls out troll horns*

exactly, you should stop relying on gay stages like peaches castle to beat floaties

/troll

Oh you, being and cute and stuff

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also shun, the Brawl ruleset leaves room to play around with the stage list at the TOs discretion. The melee ruleset currently... kinda doesnt.

 

[hubble]

Payout to top 5 imo. Makes people get a lot more hype over things, and realistically a ton more people can compete for the top 5 spots rather than the top 3.

 

[BluePeachy100]

Wow, the BR sucks balls. Not the first, or the last time I'll say that. So, if I were to host a tournament, I wouldn't have as many CPs legal as I wanted, is that what you're saying?

I also agree with top 5 payout.

 

[TheManaLord]

The MBR stagelist is acceptable.

If you guys really want to discuss stupid bull**** like this, come back to 2007 with me. Stop *****ing.

 

[BluePeachy100]

. D:<

 

[TheManaLord]

I'll MM anyone on the counterpicks they want re allowed. And I'll show you why they're banned. (willing to camp)

edit: not targeting anyone or being mean to anyone specifically. Just saying these conversations have been had and even some of the stages allowed now shouldn't be.

 

[BluePeachy100]

All I want back is Mute City. ;_;

I refuse a stupid MM that I know I would lose for certain. Of course, I may be good on Mute City, but I have no clue how good you are on MC, and then there's the obvious gap in our skill level. I'm not ********.

(That, and I don't believe in my skills on MC enough to go through with something so bold)

EDIT: I already know what people are likely going to say now. "You made all of that fuss over a stage, and now you don't even want to do a simple MM for that fact. It proves it shouldn't even be a counterpick for that matter."

Or maybe something along those lines... whatever, I give up on it.

 

[Erkekjetter]

The MBR setup is so much less flexible than the brawl list because they've had so much more time, imo. Give brawl some time and they'll weed out the gay stages.

 

[altairian]

The gay is pretty obvious though... it's pretty rare that something is discovered that makes a stage LESS gay. Usually new discoveries make stages MORE gay. So the fact that so many gay stages are still on the brawl BR's list just means they're lazy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wow, the BR sucks balls. Not the first, or the last time I'll say that. So, if I were to host a tournament, I wouldn't have as many CPs legal as I wanted, is that what you're saying?

I also agree with top 5 payout.

if you were to hold a tournament, as a TO, you can do whatever the hell you want to do with your rules, you will just have to deal with:

1. People complaining that you arent following SBR standards.
2. People flat out not showing up because you arent following sbr standards.
3. People calling you a douchebag because your forcing your rules on people that dont want them.

And dont be such a **** shun, ifyou have an opinion, stand by it, dont just give up without being proven wrong.
Unless you actually proved yourself wrong in your own mind...



Like I said its up to the people, but I would rather not pay out to top 6 for this tourney,


And I just realised that I havent even put up a payout to begin with.

Feel free to choose which one you like the most, or make your own for consideration.

1st: 55%
2nd: 25%
3rd: 10%
_________

1st: 50%
2nd: 25%
3rd: 10%
4th: 5%
_________

1st: 40%
2nd: 25%
3rd: 15%
4th: 10%
5th: 10 Dollars

Note that I cant take the middle option and just pay out ten dollars to 5th on the back end because ten dollars is probably more than 5% of the pot, and I cant pay 5th place more than 4th.

 

[Sharky]

I say pay out to fourth, unless we get more than like 50 people (rofl), then you can go to fifth or something.

 

[altairian]

...so cyberstorm is still taking 10% of the pot in addition to a $10 venue fee? classy.

edit: ew that was my 1000th post. epic milestone fail

 

[TheManaLord]

eh. the option that pays out 4 is reasonable.

 

[BluePeachy100]

Those are some pretty crap options. If it's for the good of the tournament, I guess I have no choice. Good, these members are as impressionable as sheep.

I tried that before likely ended up being wrong, but, well, I honestly believe that Mute City should not be banned. I just don't want to lose money in accordance to the MBR stage list being "acceptable" I'll still stand by my matter, but I don't think I should have to pay a price to prove to ONE person why a stage shouldn't be banned. Either way, if I were to MM him, win or lose, the fact would still show to anyone in the MBR that the stage should remain banned because obviously we would be exploiting the advanatages of the stage. So, in fact, doing that would just make everything remain in a nuetral state. Other than the fact that some people may have lost some money for that.

Also, the payout for top 4 seems best, it honestly would seem like a waste of $20 bucks if it's not percent wise.(Seeing as the 5th place people could probably make more or less depending on the turnout, having a set amount takes away from any insentive to have that much payout.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

its really upsetting that every stage I decide that I like playing on gets immediately banned in melee...

oh man, Kongo jungle (waterfall) is madd fun.... banned like 6 months later (yes this was a long time ago, but im still upset.)
mute city is fkn sweet, I finally have a new counterpick... BANNED like 2 months later.

effing lame.

 

[Erkekjetter]

You've got Kongo 64, it's all you need! It's got barrels!

 

[Foy]

What stage you talking about?

 

[BluePeachy100]

In Rochester on Kongo Jungle 64 I barrel camped, ask RTF, shiz was silly.

 

[TheManaLord]

Mute city skews character matchups too greatly to be considered legal. It's not because the stage is inherently gay, it's because of certain transformation like single platform with NO LEDGES. This literally means death for certain characters, at any percent, if they are knocked off the stage. Other things like car combo, massive flatlands, changing blastzones, graphics and collision boundaries that don't match, walls, among plenty of other things.

I just think it's very silly you happen to argue for THAT stage of all the banned stages.


Play this game in debug mode and take a look at how some of the old counterpicks are structured. You can just tell fundamentally that some stages aren't fit for fair play.


EDIT: In my honest opinion this game's structure is terrible. It always has been. The conterpick system and stage selection in general is absolutely ridiculous, but it's what makes smash unique I guess... regardless, the **** did it right. It's kind of ******** that someone as good as mango has to resort to counterpicking someone to Brinstar (chudat) just to win. The counterpicking system and allowed stages are truly not representative of balance. This is also due to our character selection system and counterpick system for that as well..


I'm high it's late andI'm hungry as ****. sorry for any confusion...


DOUBLE EDIT: anyone can propose anything to me in tournament, if the players agree on it any stage can be played. A lot of people tend to forget about this clause, and a lot of old school players tend to honor old school counterpicks.

 

[Foy]

Put Mushroom kingdom 2 on for teams. Its too good on teams.

 

[altairian]

goggles, cyberstorm is taking 10% of the pot? yes/no?

 

[da K.I.D.]

for all practical purposes the only thing that matters the no ledges thing, because ledge is kinda pivotal in melee, seeing as you can knock somebody offstage, and punish their laggy up b, over and over and over until forever. everything else is kinda secondary to that. since the only characters that can recover with out getting ***** are peach, puff and to a lesser extent fox.

to be honest, melee mute city would be amazingly good in brawl, because the ledge isnt as much of a necessity.


altairian, yes. Itll be worth it, promise.

 

[BluePeachy100]

I only want it unbanned for Peach's sake.[/lie]

Yeah, but what if you suck, tho?[/notacomeback]

Even if it's not fair, you've lost a match, and a counterpick is a means to give you an advantage over the other player. That's the definition of a counterpick, is it not?

@ Foy: No. X1000

 

[TheManaLord]

That's the entire problem. Losing shouldn't warrant you an advantage. The playing field is supposed to be even every time. Why promote competition when the loser becomes rewarded? Of course then, you say, if the winner of game 1 loses game 2, they get to counterpick! It's a cycle that doesn't really show anything. Each player gets to work with advantages that aren't present in game 1.

Counterpicking is kept fair by giving the minorest advantages possible by stage selection, because few stages are inherently even for most matchups and they all have quirks that people can deem unworthy.

 

[Foy]

Look how cool that is.

Also my mom said i cant come to this. ;____;

 

[BluePeachy100]

But wait, what-what? No Foy? ;_;

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's the entire problem. Losing shouldn't warrant you an advantage. The playing field is supposed to be even every time. .

wrong.

playing field shouldnt be even every time, losing SHOULD warrant an advatage, because they need it. and if the loser wins game 2 it builds up hype and excitement for game 3. but at the same time the winner of game 1 has an advantage for game 3 so when you look at straight numbers, the entire set becomes even.

game 1
chances of KID beating mana. 50%
Mana wins

game 2.
chance of KID beating mana. 60%
KID wins

game 3
chances of KID beating mana. 40%
Mana wins

put those 3 games together and I have a even chance of winning the set.

 

[altairian]

altairian, yes. Itll be worth it, promise.

Unless they're providing a large number of setups/lag-free tv's (which I know they aren't), giving us free reign to set up as many setups and take up as much space as we want (didn't really happen last time), bring in food/drink so we don't have to pay their stupid prices or starve (definitely won't happen) then I fail to see what they're doing that entitles them to take EXTRA money BEYOND ten ****ing dollars a person just to walk in the building and play smash. Honestly what ARE they doing for us other than giving us a roof over our heads and some tables and power outlets?

But I guess it saves me the trouble of finding a dubs partner though, I'd rather play friendlies than give cyberstorm a penny more for being an inhospitable venue.

 

[Shiri]

Okay, so yeah.

DK Rap should be on.

 

[Sharky]

Unless they're providing a large number of setups/lag-free tv's (which I know they aren't), giving us free reign to set up as many setups and take up as much space as we want (didn't really happen last time), bring in food/drink so we don't have to pay their stupid prices or starve (definitely won't happen) then I fail to see what they're doing that entitles them to take EXTRA money BEYOND ten ****ing dollars a person just to walk in the building and play smash. Honestly what ARE they doing for us other than giving us a roof over our heads and some tables and power outlets?

But I guess it saves me the trouble of finding a dubs partner though, I'd rather play friendlies than give cyberstorm a penny more for being an inhospitable venue.

This. I've yet to talk to someone other than you (goggles) that thinks this is fair. To charge that much and set that many restrictions is absurd. I'll be at this one, but I don't know about future SoY's.

 

[altairian]

The playing field is supposed to be even every time

Sorry but, "even playing field" is an illusion. For example, sports teams get home field advantage.

Say I play better with people watching than my opponent does. Should my friends that are watching turn around to "level the playing field"?

There are ALWAYS factors that give one person/team some kind of advantage or disadvantage. Nothing is fair. I think creating a system that recognizes that fact and gives the player more control over the match is a positive thing, personally.

 

[BluePeachy100]

I didn't see that Mana had posted.

Well, if what you said was true, there would be no counterpicking system at all. Every match in Melee would be played on a stage nuetral, and eveyr Brawl match would be on Smashville, or something to that effect. The thing that makes Smash so different from other fighters iss stages affecting gameplay, and things of that nature. What would be the point of there being more than one playable stage in the first place? Every game would just be on the most "fair" stage every single time.

 

[TheManaLord]

If we only had ONE stage. The game would be even. The matchups for the stage define the entire competitive experience. THAT'S what the **** tried to do, but they even failed at that. Instead, FD should be the only stage. If gameplay was standardized to one stage the matchup definitions would be defined by that sole stage. The stage specific matchups now become the only relevant matchup. Now everything is even.

Goggles **** was just dumb, that's some elementary mathematical analysis.

Altarian, even playing field is not an illusion. See above examples. Matchups just become what they are, not based on stage advantages that skew stage to stage matchups.

Now I know that I have a very narrow idea of how this game should be played. That's why I wanted to avoid the debate in the first place, because everyone's opinions are so vastly different. If we just contently follow the SBR we would avoid any arguments about any of it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Unless they're providing a large number of setups/lag-free tv's (which I know they aren't), giving us free reign to set up as many setups and take up as much space as we want (didn't really happen last time), bring in food/drink so we don't have to pay their stupid prices or starve (definitely won't happen) then I fail to see what they're doing that entitles them to take EXTRA money BEYOND ten ****ing dollars a person just to walk in the building and play smash. Honestly what ARE they doing for us other than giving us a roof over our heads and some tables and power outlets?

But I guess it saves me the trouble of finding a dubs partner though, I'd rather play friendlies than give cyberstorm a penny more for being an inhospitable venue.

for one, space will be used MUCH more efficiently this time around, thats a fact. we had free reign to take up madd space before but we just couldnt before due to bad positioning of the tables, which is going to be fixed and lack of extension cords because that large area didnt have any power going to it, which cyberstorm will also be providing.

Also for the record, I bring food and drink with me up in there all the time, just dont be blatent about it.

and if you were around for the arena 51 tourneys, youd see the prices for their food and drink is pretty fair. its less than it was at arena 5 years ago, which, when you think of inflation is pretty good.

not to mention this is essentially 11 dollars for 12+ hours of games at a place that normally charges 6-7 dollars an hour. 5 dollars for VIPs that pay yearly dues, and 20 dollars for bi-weekly lock-ins that barely have half of the quality gaming time that we will have.

its all about perspective mah duu.




and lets be honest here, the reason we dont all play all smash matches on one stage is because even though as mana says its teh most fair way to do things, its also boring and lame. and despite what anyone says, the goal is to create an ENJOYABLE competitive envioronment and to find the happy balence between entertainment/variance and fair competition.