Excuse my noobness, but how do you stop Fox/Falco/Wolf's forward + b recovery. When I get my friends off the ledge and anticipate them recovering with foward + b, I charge up a smash but they seem to go right through it. Am I approaching this wrong or is my timing too late?
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Stopping Fox Illusion Recovery
- Thread starter Lyle
- Start date
AIDS
Smash Lord
be close to the edge and stand there and press A, you will do a jab.
it will stun him enough and make you have enough time to edge guard him as you please.
it will stun him enough and make you have enough time to edge guard him as you please.
crouchcancel
Smash Rookie
yeah, just watch m2k's vids
he just jabs them, then they usually up+b into his counter
but as far as after the jab goes, just take the situation as it comes
he just jabs them, then they usually up+b into his counter
but as far as after the jab goes, just take the situation as it comes
Ace83
Smash Journeyman
d-tilt as soon as he illusions to the stage if he is trying to sweetspot, then edgeguard.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
WOLF? Who is WOLF? I know not of any WOLF.
These are the Melee boards. We don't like your kind here.
No but seriously, just hit him with a jab if they're close in. If you have time to prep, ready an fsmash or dtilt, or if you're really fancy you can wavedash back into an fsmash.
These are the Melee boards. We don't like your kind here.
No but seriously, just hit him with a jab if they're close in. If you have time to prep, ready an fsmash or dtilt, or if you're really fancy you can wavedash back into an fsmash.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
I'm just giving you a hard time ^^
...but Melee is still better than Brawl.
...but Melee is still better than Brawl.
UMBC Super Smasher
Smash Lord
When the space animal illusions onto the stage, if you see it coming then neutral B. If you know he does it every time and can't sweetspot, then predict and neutral B. Prettymuch, if fox is off the stage, then space yourself right and neutral B. Jab on the edge of the stage is too predictable at today's metagame. Still useful, but don't rely on it all the time. Fox/falco can illusion then after getting hit by the jab air dodge onto the stage. They can even tech. If a space animal gets hit by a neutral B, it prettymuch spells death if the marth is good. The result with jab doesn't tend to end as successfully as you'd think it should. The spacie can space his up B so that marth's counter misses, or even space the recovery so that the neutral B or fsmash or dtilt misses. Go with neutral B, but if you don't see it coming, just time the jab.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
Timing f-smashes is easy for this. Shieldbreaker is easy too, but I like to do f-smashes as they seem to come out faster than the Shieldbreaker and I think give more knockback if the Shieldbreaker is uncharged.
But my recommendation is to face away from your opponent as they're about to recover. If they use the illusion above the stage, f-smash them. If they try to sweetspot the ledge, wavedash backwards and grab it first.
But my recommendation is to face away from your opponent as they're about to recover. If they use the illusion above the stage, f-smash them. If they try to sweetspot the ledge, wavedash backwards and grab it first.
Stewie1288
Smash Apprentice
no mention of f-tilt? tippered I think it has decent knockback to lead into more edgeguarding.
my2cents.
my2cents.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
^True, but why lead into more edgeguarding if an F-smash will make them lose a stock?
Stewie1288
Smash Apprentice
well the f-tilt would have the same effect as a jab/d-tilt (both of which were mentioned earlier). Really any of them would do the trick. Of course if you have the time for an f-smash it would probably be the preferred method. Shield breaker wouldn't be terrible either, but if you have time for that you can land an f-smash.
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
Don't do anything but jab or d-tilt as they might shorten the illusion or otherwise make you mistime your attack and miss, and you don't want to be lagging so they can attack you from the edge.
I just hold down and wait to see what they do. If they try to sweetspot, time a d-tilt, if they go for the stage, time a jab. If they go over your head, there should be enough lag for you to just run after them and grab.
I just hold down and wait to see what they do. If they try to sweetspot, time a d-tilt, if they go for the stage, time a jab. If they go over your head, there should be enough lag for you to just run after them and grab.
Stewie1288
Smash Apprentice
after playing a fox-maining friend....i retract my previous statement and agree with Shai. jab and d-tilt are your friends.....your ONLY friends. =)
jinofcoolnes
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2008
- Messages
- 418
2.d-tilt
quick and easy to time hits sweetspot fot the edge
2. UB to edgeguard
it easy to time also it could put them in bad postion.
3.F-tilt
good dmg and very easy to time sweetspot the egde too.
4.A
easy to time but leave them to grab the egde most of the time.
5.B
hard to time(needs prep)but mostly kills if you pull it off
6.USmash
i think you can time this aswell(need to test)
quick and easy to time hits sweetspot fot the edge
2. UB to edgeguard
it easy to time also it could put them in bad postion.
3.F-tilt
good dmg and very easy to time sweetspot the egde too.
4.A
easy to time but leave them to grab the egde most of the time.
5.B
hard to time(needs prep)but mostly kills if you pull it off
6.USmash
i think you can time this aswell(need to test)
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
Umm how is it easy to time an up-B intercepting an illusion? Fox can shine stall before the jump and illusion pretty much whenever he wants.
Damage doesn't matter. You can gimp Fox at 0 if you handle it right, and ftilt is rarely (if ever) your best option. Ftilt only has good knockback if you sweetspot it, which isn't that easy to time. Dtilt is much better.
How are they going to grab the edge? When Fox illusions 90% of the time he'll jump first and there's no way he's going to grab the edge if you jab him out of the illusion without a jump. If he still has the jump it's more complicated, but I would just jab again if he jumps at me. If he jumps backwards and illusions again just jab or dtilt depending on the height. If he drops down and up-Bs it's much easier to edgeguard.
It's pretty hard to intercept illusions with neutral B because if the Fox is any good and you're sitting there charging he's going to go over your head with firefox if possible. If he illusions he might try to shorten it and your neutral B will probably miss.
lol usmash? Fox doesn't die from usmash until well over 100 at stage level, even if it's tipped. And how the **** are you going to tip it unless they illusion at the perfect height and your timing is ridiculously good. I'm pretty sure no one has ever, ever used this to edgeguard Fox successfully.
If you're systematic about your edgeguarding it is very hard for Fox to get back at any %. The only situation I find a little tricky is if, say, you jab him out of illusion then he up-Bs very close to the stage. Too close to jump out and fair/up-B. Most of the time the Fox will firefox into you so I typically counter in this situation, but he can also go straight up, and there's enough lag on the counter that he can generally grab the edge. Jumping off and countering works sometimes, but depending where it hits it might hit Fox into the stage which he can tech, or even onto the stage. Running off and doing a reverse forward B works if the Fox is very close to the stage. Then follow up with another forward B, DJ fair, etc.
There's also the situation where Fox is using firefox and far enough away that he can shoot over the edge and fall to grab it, but low enough that he can also sweet spot if he so chooses (so that a charge neutral B would miss, for instance). I'm not entirely sure what to do in these situations either. If he's somewhat far I'll jump off and intercept with a nonsweetspotted fair, but sometimes it's not really clear what will work.
Any thoughts?
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
When they upB clost to the stage I tend to either walk to leaning over the edge and Counter again, or just move backwards. If they Firefox so that they ride the edge you can just Fsmash once they clear the edge so they can't tech. And if they go straight up you can just walk forward and Fsmash them then. If they are far enough away that I can edgehog I normally just do a quick edgehog to w/e i feel like with invincibility frames. I like doing the OverB, OverB to upB by either running off the stage or grabbing the edge to drop off invinc. frames. Too many players forget about just moving backwards and Fsmashing them above the stage so they can't tech it though. Especially if they are upBing close to the stage after a neutral A to interrupt the illusion
For your second issue where they are far away. Assuming you were originally at the edge to gaurd against the phantasm/illusion you have plenty of time to time a wavedash fastfalled edgehog. If they went for the sweetspot they are edgehogged, if they go above the edge you can do multiple aerials depending on the firefox's trajectory. My favorite is ledgehopped upair to dair. You can also just bair, dair, nair, etc.
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
The problem for me with trying to fsmash in that situation is that depending on how they angle the firefox it might be very difficult to time. And they're so close that you generally don't have time to wait for them to actually start moving, look at the angle, and then decide. So you guess, and if you guess they're coming in at a low angle and instead they go at a high angle you'll get hit. Or if you guess high angle and they go low angle you'll miss.
You can recreate this situation against level 1 cpus by facing the stage near the edge, dthrow, wait for them to jump, then jab. 90% of the time they will up-B very close to the stage where it is difficult (but sometimes possible) to hit them with run off fair, bair, forward-B, or up-B. Of course the cpu will just firefox into you every time but a human in this situation could go straight up or possibly even sweetspot. You could of course counter 50% of the time and the other 50% wavedash back and fsmash but I'm trying to take the guesswork out of my edgeguarding to make it as systematic and reliable as possible. For instance against Falco in a similar situation you can just run off and hit him with whatever because his firebird doesn't have hitboxes until frame 43, whereas for Fox's firefox you have
Total: 92
Hit: 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32,
43-72
so you are likely to get caught in the flames. Looks like there is a 10-frame window where Fox is vulnerable, however. It may be possible just to time your attack for this window. Then run off fair => up-B to ledge => ledge-hopped / ledge-dropped stuff to finish might work.
Yeah that seems like a good idea. Just wait, then either wavedash edgehog if go for sweetspot, counter if aim at you, fsmash or aerial or grab if they go over your head.
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
By the way running off and fast-falling a fair works well against Fox when he starts up-B just below the stage. You want to time it so the fair hits just before he would start moving. Then jump and up-B to sweet spot the edge. Fox should now be in a position where you can immediately let go and bair or let go, fast fall, and DJ fair/ bair depending on where the Fox went. You just repeat these fair / bair / up B patterns until Fox is knocked too far away to get back.
This works pretty well in practice I've found.
This works pretty well in practice I've found.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
Would it ever be a good idea to jump off the edge and use counter? Just out of curiosity. Never tried it and was thinking about it. Counter is used when Fox goes above the stage, but why not do it off the stage and intercept them low, regardless of whether or not they were going to go above the edge?
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
Here's the frame data on Fox's up-B.
Total: 92
Hit: 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32,
43-72
Counter works well if you counter before the first part, i.e., frames 20-32, and if Fox is far enough away from the stage that you can make sure the counter sends him away from the stage. If you counter during the second part of his up-B you're more likely to send him toward the stage.
In practice it's difficult to counter during the first part of his up- B unless you just run off the stage and counter before he even starts. For instance, dhtrow, wait for illusion, jab, immediately run off and counter will often work.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
^Thanks. I tried it out and noticed some problems doing it when he already started Firefox.
Bah, if he was using Internet Explorer I could totally stop him in the middle.
...yeah I'll go home now.
Bah, if he was using Internet Explorer I could totally stop him in the middle.
...yeah I'll go home now.
QuickSi1ver
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2008
- Messages
- 42
Crouch no matter what move you are going to use, because you can jab and D-tilt from that position, and u-smash too if you feel its necessary.
This, and counter can work sometimes too
Proverbs
Smash Lord
U-smash isn't good unless they are going to appear RIGHT above you. And even then you could tip an f-smash on them instead as they were coming over. Also can be done from crouching.
Niko45
Smash Master
Jab sucks unless used sparingly. D tilt only works if they go for the edge. F smash is the best imo timing isn't bad and you can space it over the edge to guard the attempted sweet spot. I like to get the fsmash way out over the ledge if I have time the timing just works well and there's no need for tippers. If they try to illusion over you timing fairs isn't bad either. Watch out for the shortened illusion which is why I try to get the sword out as far as I can. It looks kinda ugly but this **** works.
Prince Of Fire
Smash Lord
You both have a lot to learn.
D tilt and jab are your best options.
Usmash? UpB? Fsmash? No. haha haha
You should only fsmash if the fox upbs ABOVE you and then trys to land on the stage or ledge by falling...and not rising.
Get as close to the edge as possible and crouch. From here you can either d tilt if they illusion or down b realy quickly if they decide to upB. If they go over you...intercept with a bair (more knockback than the fair) or fair them and set up for a spike. At higher percents a nice u tilt will work if they go over you as well.
booshk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 1,104
neutral b or a if theyre coming into u
jab is easier to time and its effective i usually just use a...
SpaceFalcon
Smash Lord
Tipper jab.
It's just beautiful.
It's just beautiful.
Omni_Smash
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2008
- Messages
- 175
Hmm... this was kinda useful...
Jab, D-tilt for most edguared against illusion.
Edgehog that fire fox and go for whatever is easiest after you know where he will go.
Good discussion guys.
Jab, D-tilt for most edguared against illusion.
Edgehog that fire fox and go for whatever is easiest after you know where he will go.
Good discussion guys.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
No he can't
unless he can go over it. or if your standing to far away from the edge. but you wouldnt use neutral b in those situations anyway
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Are you saying that if you let go of the neutral B against a Fox that is OverBing (phantasm/illusion) it doesn't matter if they try to shorten it because the timing to hit him is exactly the same?
Jboy313
Smash Apprentice
if would use up b rather then forward b cuz you can change the direction so they dont know where you are going to come from. (Stright, up or down.) but its slower..
Jboy313
Smash Apprentice
also im not sure if this works but press down b and if he hits you with it you will counter..might not work since it goes through you..
LSDX
Wah!
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,041
Best option would be a DTilt as listed. If you want to playing a game of predeiciton, if you know where they land you can land a FSmash on them if they were to land on flat terrain. The less likely option would to try to achieve a Dair, but ONLY is they are in the ending frame where they're in the process of grabbing the ledge (in other words, use sparingly).
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Waiting For Mike Haggar Response!
Niko45
Smash Master
Look to jab until they become low enough that they will get hit by the dtilt. If they illusion over you onto a platform you can either go for a tipper in the other direction or a turnaround up tilt. If they illusion over you onto the ground behind you there's time to grab, or measure an fsmash. Jab if they illusion at the upper half of ur body and dtilt if they go for ur lower half or the edge. Stand out on the very edge of the stage to minimize the chance of you whiffing if they shorten the illusion.