Starting roster already revealed (SamuraiPanda's Conspiracy Theoracy) [Final Update]

[firedragon_jing]

That's the character selection screen from the demo they had
proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At6XYXirQ3M

This isn't the official one yet, you think Sakurai would give that away when he might include more characters?

 

[NukeA6]

That's the character selection screen from the demo they had
proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At6XYXirQ3M&feature=related

This isn't the official one yet, you think Sakurai would give that away when he might include more characters?

Exactly. That would take away the surprise if Captain Falcon was a starter. Did we see DK, Bowser, and Sonic in any screenshot before their confirmation (thought DK appeared in a teaser)?

 

[Classic-Black]

My biggest problem with the theory is the lack of Kirby. Every other franchise is repped by their main character Mario (duh) Link (LoZ) Pikachu (pokemon) Donkey Kong, Samus, etc; WOuld it make sense to have to unlock Mario, or Link? THe answer to that is probably "no", they are the focal point of their respective franchises. THat's the same answer for having to unlock Kirby

Kirby is the main character of his franchise, not MK. I don't care about the subjectivity of MK's "coolness", it does not make sense to have the main character be locked in favor of a supporting one. Metaknight may be a major player, but you kninda associate Kirby with his franchise. As for SSE, yeah, you could unlock Kirby that way, but you could also unlock Mario that way if he was locked. But, not having the main character of the franchise, especially one as big as Mario, for major supporting characters (Peach and Bowser) would'nt make much sense. It's possible, but there's no real reasoning for it. Every other franchise represented has their main character unlocked, Kirby's doesn't, and considering he's been around since the first initial trailers, there is no reason for him to be unlockable, aside from the sake of being unlockable.

I'm more inclined to believe that the first two trailers, plus extras, will be the starting roster. and that would just add kirby (who is still the main character for the franchise of the same name, last I checked) and Wario.

 

[pud22]

You make a lot of sense, but I'm still not crazy about this starting roster. Your points about unlocking characters very quickly make me feel better about it though. Interesting stuff here.

hey Mattram whos that char in ur sig?

 

[CCC07]

Does it really matter whether or not some char are not on
the starting roster. you'll still enjoy brawl just as must, and have
no problem unlocking the others. Japan gets a game before us so
if you hate unlocking chars. just go to a faqs. site when it comes
out in japan. thats gives you like a two week headstart to know what to
do.

 

[Vadorojo]

hey Mattram whos that char in ur sig?

I don't know if it's a specific character, but it's a Swordmaster from the Fire Emblem GBA games. The only male Myrmidon/Swordmaster I remember was named Guy, but I think he had different-colored hair. Anyway, that's his Critical Strike animation and yes, it rocks.

Back to the thread at hand:

As far as "Question Marked Boxes" from Melee that represented hidden characters, I don't see them making a return. For one, there weren't such boxes for ALL the Melee characters and more importantly, Brawl is going to have a hefty load of characters, secret or not, which would make all the ??? look silly.

The idea of Kirby not being a starter even though he's the clear representative of his franchise is the best argument against this theory, but I still don't think it shoots the theory down entirely. Sakurai can do whatever he wishes with Brawl, but let's not forget, Kirby, unlike Link, Mario or Samus, is HIS creation. If Sakurai chooses to have his franchise's main character not be on the starting roster, he's not going to get a phone call from himself demanding that he be there.

When I think about what we know so far about the SSE, it makes even more sense that Kirby would be unlockable. Two things to think about it:

We've seen footage of Mario fighting Kirby. This could easily be the first portion of the SSE and lead to Kirby being unlocked. But if not, there might be another easily foreseen option:

In the Petey Pirahna fight, we know that we have to choose between Peach and Zelda. At first glance, we think, "Well duh—Zelda! She's not on the starting roster and I want to unlock her!" But wait! We've also seen E4All footage that shows Peach hanging out with Kirby in the SSE! Perhaps if you choose to save Peach, you end up unlocking Kirby, whereas if you save Zelda, you unlock Link's love interest.

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

...

The choice between mario and kirby in SSE also seems to knock that possibility out of the water. If we choose Kirby, then how are we going to fight him to unlock him? For Zelda, if we save her, how are we going to fight her to unlock her?

...

This game is not Melee or Smash 64. It hasn't been proven that characters will be unlocked by fighting them.

 

[gigasteve]

PLEASE READ Samuraipanda

Samuraipanda, though this is also my theory, I thought of something that may go against it. When Sakurai announced Brawl at E 4 All, he said that the roster would be LIMITED. He mentioned he would throw Sonic in, but he said that because EVERYONE wanted to check him out at the demo. And also, to prove you're right, Friday's update showed "seeking", which means it was in use!!! This might prove us wrong.

 

[Wight]

only problem is that its so different from how it was before. like in melee when we got the demo it wasnt the full roster. And if we get a new character any time between now and... soon, it would disprove this theory and at least serve a major blow to it..

 

[Onichi]

It's a good theory, I guess. I'm still hung up on this being the starting line-up. I don't see how "Oh s/he can just be unlocked immediately" and a screen shot is reason enough to omit Kirby and Zelda, two veterans going back to "Unlockable status." Kirby is the reason Sakurai was originally famous, why would he bar you from playing Kirby from the start.

Plus, the Updates, as we know, are prepared 5 months in advance, maybe at that time they didn't have the screen worked out for the starting roster. A small detail like that could be saved for a touch up, versus making a characters moveset, or model (*cough* Kirbyhats *cough*) which would need more work.

 

[2.72]

Easy, he can just say “then you go straight to the character selection screen!” There is no reason to show it. He does that often in Dojo updates, which makes me think he purposefully wanted to reveal the starting roster (plus, I don’t think he can justify a whole update for the starting roster).

He could use it as half of a double update. If the Theoracy is correct, he pretty much did.

Actually, he showed us much more in this screenshot than just the characters:

See the "leave" button, the "items" and "stage" button, the timer, and the "2-minute KO fest?" Sure, much of that was obvious and he could have just described everything, but he (as either you or Youko commented on in SMYN) normally has very image-intensive updates. This one was unusual enough in the amount of text without adding any more.

Sure, he could have just explained that all, but he normally explains by showing a lot of screenshots.

Also, since you asked for reasonable starting rosters:

• All of the revealed characters.
• All of the revealed non-third party characters.
• OK, OK, I'll stop being cheap: Mario, DK, Link, Samus, CF, Fox, Pikachu, Pit, Kirby, Metaknight, Ike, Peach, Yoshi, Sonic, Bowser.

I like the Theoracy if it's just that the roster shown may be the starting roster. Sure, that's definitely true. It didn't occur to me, but your arguments were very convincing. I don't think that it's the only possible starting roster.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I'm surprised nobody caught this one....

(Sonic doesn't even deserve a spot in the game, why the hell should he be unlockable?).

I missed your delicious bitter tears too? Good god too many people make completely stupid statements about him nowadays.

Samurai's conjecture is indeed sound, but once again several other people have already stolen what I was thinking about, namely the unedited starting screen in Names and the lack of Kirby.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Makes sense to me.

But I guess we have to wait till it comes out in Japan.

 

[SolidSonic]

Plus, having Sonic in the game is a HUGE selling and advertising point. It only makes sense that he’s playable from the very beginning. Snake, on the other hand, is not nearly as “huge” to the SSBB series, or to fans worldwide as Sonic. Comparing the two would be silly.

FU.

Snake > everyone

 

[Thalamor]

Although you are remarkably good in making clear why statements that try to prove this is not the starting roster are invalid, doing so does not prove that this is the starting roster whatsoever. (i.e. stating that the layout of character selection buttons might change does not prove kirby is not included in the starting characters, it only proves that this COULD be the starting roster, just as any combination of returning characters and newcomers can potentially be the correct starting roster, which essentially means this proves nothing we weren't sure of yet.) The only things we can conclude is that we need more information in order to come to a deductive conclusion, and that any guesses on the probability of any theory before that being correct is only made up by human interpretation. Therefore, starting a discussion would be pointless.
While I obviously have no problem with you posting your personal speculation, I don't see the point of this topic or any theor(ac)ies on the subject. Why would we want to know what the starting roster exactly looks like? Most of us will probably have unlocked well over 5 characters in the first hour of playtime.
:2cents:

 

[Kittah4]

I started to believe the "Theoracy" even before I heard it.. I just accepted that this might be the starting roster. After all, what does it really matter if it is? Diddy, MK, Mario, Sonic, there's plenty of neat people to choose from the get-go. And if Kirby is truly locked it would follow that you could get him and maybe Dedede too really early from SSE and Event mode respectively. That's of course assuming you are able to immediately fight and unlock characters you glimpse that you don't have. I mean, it would be weird to me if you're able to pick Kirby in the very first SSE stage without him being unlocked, but anything's possible.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. After the campaign to unlock all the characters, who's unlockable and who isn't really starts to fade off into memory. I'd be hard pressed to remember how to unlock some melee characters, just because I've had them unlocked for years. YEARS.

I told myself I'd stop overanalyzing the updates, but here I am, running on the hype hamster wheel again. Bravo Sakurai.

 

[Xiroey2]

I like your logic. And to be honest, I can see it being true.

Pokémon Trainer, Wario, Zelda, Kirby, Snake, Lucas, Dedede and Ice Climbers aren't in that select screen, and I can think of a reason for all of them.

I can see a flaw in your argument though...

Next match? Petey Piranha with Zelda and Peach in a cage. Save Zelda to unlock her.

You say Zelda would be unlocked if you save her, but then why would Peach be available from the start?
Just doesn't make sense...

Most of your theoracy makes sense though, and I wish it IS true.

There's simply not enough information to come to a conclusion though.

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Can anyone name me a single game where unlockable characters were clearly detailed on the box?

 

[Xiroey2]

Can anyone name me a single game where unlockable characters were clearly detailed on the box?

Yes. Not a Smash Bros. game, but I can name some games with unlockable characters on the box.

Paper Mario 2 has Goombella, Koops and the Yoshi.
Super Paper Mario has Peach, Bowser, AND Luigi .ALL the unlockable characters...

Sakurai even said he's not too hung up on hidden characters this time...

 

[Darkfur]

I agree with almost everything SP, and can definitely see this being reasonable. However, I only have two words to say about mentioning Sakurai being unable to justify an update for the starting roster.

"Widescreen Support"

 

[lanky_gunner]

Alrighty then, i heard this in the podcast, and now I'll give my input for this.

Although it is a great theoracy, and I can see it as a possibility, I just can't see it as feasible enough, and just to point out why I can't see it:

1. The starting roster is too small. I mean we're talking near 40 characters in the game. I wouldn't want to unlock 25+ characters throughout the whole game. Melee had it right, closing in on about half of the available characters. So it would seem feasible to do the same for Brawl.

2. Consider the original eight. Now I know you stated Kirby could be an unlockable and he could be the first, but think about this. Why would Sakurai reveal Kirby as one of the first fighters in Brawl, and then make him an unlockable? Then think about this! In the Subspace Emissary, you have the OPTION of playing as Kirby first. If Sakurai wanted to have Kirby as an unlockable, then you shouldn't have that option. You would instead choose Mario, fight Kirby, then you get him, yet it shows you can choose Kirby first.

3. Going back to Melee, you have to remember how far into the game you got before the unlockables started showing up. Yes, it would make it fun to unlock Dedede on the first event match, but Dedede? Being the boss that he is, wouldn't it fit to have him later in the game? Usually the first unlockables are-Jigglypuff, Pichu, Dr. Mario. Sidekicks and secondary characters, while bosses like Mewtwo and Ganondorf appeared in the middle or late in the game. So this is really part of the familiarity category.

4. Maybe Sakurai doesn't want to show the character selection screen yet. Maybe he hasn't announced all the characters yet (Capt. Falcon?). So maybe he chose the screen from E for All as just an example of what you will do when you do Basic Brawl.

That's all i got for now. I might have more, but I just woke up, and it takes a while for my brain to wake up. If i think of any more, I'll post here.

But nice theoracy SP. It really made me think.

 

[Elec Man EXE]

I can see where you're coming from SamuraiPanda, but I just don't see it.

1.) People who broke down and analyzed? Its not exactly difficult to find the Select Screen from the demo. Anyone who's seen even a single video from E4All has likely seen it. Heck, they even showed it to us in the interviews with Nintendo reps (the ones done by Gamepro and other media people). And they admit that the internet spreads news like wildfire, so I'm sure they expect everyone has seen the demo screen. Besides, they even pointed out the demo at E For All on the Dojo itself. So it can't even be argued that some people who only check the Dojo don't know about it.

2.) I get what you're saying about not waiting 2 hours between unlocks. But the very first battle in SSE, you unlock someone? That seems rather rediculous. Also, a major point against the theory. Probably the biggest. Go back and watch the SSE: The Beginning videos again (look in the Gameplay Video thread). You get a choice to use either Kirby or Mario for the very first battle. Would they really give you a chance to select a character thats not unlocked for use?

Also, for the Zelda unlock thing... wouldn't they make Peach an unlockable as well, then? Can't see one being an unlockable, and the other remaining "hidden". It'd really skew the decision of which to save (unlock Zelda, or pick Peach and get nothing...), rather than having people decide entirely based on who they like more.

3.) I can see that.

4.) Good point, but... if Sonic is such a big "selling point", why isn't he on the box art? Surely seeing Sonic and Mario on the box as someone looks over the games would be a big attention grabber.

5.) Agreed 100%. There are so many ways to fit unlocked stuff there.

I'd say the selectable character thing for the first battle is the biggest evidence against what we've seen being the starter cast.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I don't have nearly enough time on my hands right now to address every argument made so far by you guys, but I was able to give quick counters for some of the most recurrent points.

 

[Darkfur]

And as the case has always been, I’ve made it so you can play the characters you unlock in battles.

That's why I think we'll be batttling characters to unlock them just like always. PRobably with a "A Challenger aproaches" screen as well.

 

[flyinfilipino]

That's why I think we'll be batttling characters to unlock them just like always. PRobably with a "A Challenger aproaches" screen as well.

I was just about to quote that. So, what if you started SSE and chose Kirby, and then unlocked him by winning? You didn't fight Kirby.

 

[Nothingman]

I'm sorry SP, other people ate up your theory right away, but im just not buying it.

sure none of the arguments "disprove" your theory, but there are just so many of them, that you seem to be fishing for counter arguments to keep your theory from falling apart.

Sakurai has pulled some weird ones on us in the past, but

meta and no kirby? hidden characters on the game box? characters that are hidden until you play one match (why even make them hidden them if they're on the box, easy to unlock, and well known?), sonic but no snake? hidden characters revealed on the dojo (wario) before starting roster characters (diddy)? 1 zelda character but 3 mario characters?

that is just TOOO MUCH random curveballs that sakurai would be throwing for no reason that i can think of except for to make this lame theory work. sure its my "opinion" that your arguement is really bad, so i "can't disprove it" but i can probably provide just as strong of counter arguements for master chief to be in this game, and we all know he wont be. of course, YOU CANT PROVE HES NOT SO DONT BRING ANY OF YOUR OPINIONS IN HERE.

also, in the added part of your original post, you quoted someone saying that "we dont have enough info to make a guess about these being the starting characters", and you agreed to it. But isnt your entire thread trying to do just that? i dont understand...

 

[Darkfur]

also, in the added part of your original post, you quoted someone saying that "we dont have enough info to make a guess about these being the starting characters", and you agreed to it. But isnt your entire thread trying to do just that? i dont understand...

I believe this is because the thread is not stating anything as fact. It's all theory and speculation, and light hearted discussion.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I sense a common thread in many of the arguments against the theoracy based on patterns in the previous two games. People throw around terms like "all" and "always" when there have only been two previous smash games. This is not some long-running series that has been around for decades. This is game #3, and it is bound to change radically. Why is Kirby being a hidden character such a violation of smash culture? As SP mentioned, the idea here is that the player will be unlocking characters quite rapidly. Also, as noted in Sakurai's comments, making characters hidden is not as big a deal as it once was. In Melee, it was a royal pain unlocking Mr. Game & Watch (despite him being one of the worst characters). Now, unlocking characters is more of a proper ritual than actually "revealing hidden" characters. Sakurai knows that most of us will know the entire roster before the game comes out in America, so it makes sense that the characters would be unlocked in this manner.

 

[2.72]

I agree, Buzz. Keep in mind that Sakurai has a known dislike for sequel-after-sequel series, so I doubt that he would mind mixing it up that much.

The Theoracy is plausible. It's not the only possibility by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely reasonable.

 

[Nothingman]

so it makes sense that the characters would be unlocked in this manner.

sure, its possible that the smash idea of hidden characters has changed (not so secret and on the box art) along with how to unlock them (quickly and unsurprisingly), but i see absolutely no good reason to make this change.

in fact, i think it would take away from the game. I like looking at a SOLID starting character roster, each series represented well. and i want most of the unlockables to feel like accomplishments. making these changes like those are just bad ideas, and i doubt sakurai is doing this.

 

[tutter]

Great theory, typing out my counter argument would only pull me from what I am supposed to be doing, studying for finals. I shall get back to this Tuesday afternoon when I am free until January 14th!

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

sure, its possible that the smash idea of hidden characters has changed (not so secret and on the box art) along with how to unlock them (quickly and unsurprisingly), but i see absolutely no good reason to make this change.

I see this happening now.

in fact, i think it would take away from the game. I like looking at a SOLID starting character roster, each series represented well. and i want most of the unlockables to feel like accomplishments. making these changes like those are just bad ideas, and i doubt sakurai is doing this.

...but I disagree with this. Since the internet is so eager for a final roster, I found that surprise of unlocking things is but a small blip in the radar compared to how long you're going to be spending with this game. Some temporary "ZOMG He's IN THE GAME?!" is nothing compared to that final roster where you can play with your mains and see how s/he stacks up. Like the Japanese, I've found the journey more important than the destination, which is why I want the whole character roster yet don't want anything on SSE.

 

[The Director]

Sorry Panda, but your theory and thus this thread is complete epic fail.

Kirby as an unlockable? LOL

 

[flyinfilipino]

I wouldn't say stuff like that. After all, in the event that it is true....

 

[Darkfur]

I wouldn't say stuff like that. After all, in the event that it is true....

Remember the Pokemon Trainer (Red) for Brawl thread? =p Complete and utter ownage.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Remember the Pokemon Trainer (Red) for Brawl thread? =p Complete and utter ownage.

Nah, I don't think I was around for that. Must've been fun!

 

[PukeTShirt]

Why isn't it possible that this isn't actually the starting roster, but the screen they used for the demo? Who says that the screenshot is actually a screenshot and not a shopped mockup? I just wish he would tell us already what the starting roster is....

 

[EggBomb]

I'm almost positive this theory is false.

I know that you mentioned this, but look at the event match mode. The FIRST event has King Dedede in it. Sakurai said most characters are unlocked in SSE and if Dedede was a secret character, then event mode would have to be unlocked and I find that very unlikely. It also doesn't seem very plausible to unlock a character after completing the first event or first level in adventure mode...that's just really annoying.

I think SSE will kind of work similiar to how Event mode did last time, obviously the farther you get into it the more characters you get. I honestly think sakurai just reused the image from the demo because he didn't want to reveal the roster at this point in time and needed a picture. He knows about the internet and how they ruin things, so why would he post the actual roster and speed that up himself?

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm almost positive this theory is false.

Look at the event match mode. The FIRST event has King Dedede in it. If he was a secret character, then event mode would have to be unlocked and I find that very unlikely.

Ganondorf and Pichu and Young Link (I believe) were all unlocked through Event Mode in Melee. First event or not, it doesn't matter.

 

[DarkVision]

3rd event you play as Kirby too...

I HIGHLY doubt it's the starting roster without Kirby