Starting from the ground up

[Yeroc]

I think we've got the problem of this game being built in bits and pieces as we were capable of doing at the time, and we're in a cluster**** with everybody having different ideas of what direction we should take now because of it.

The way I see it, we need to go back to the beginning and decide where we want our mechanics to go, because I agree that they are the foundation, and you can't get anywhere if people are set on changing them down the line. The problem we run into is people having different ideas about how we should go forward from here.

So, I plan to eventually morph this topic into a catchall/overview of where the project is / is headed. For now, I think we need to start with the basics. I want everybody to post their opinion on where they feel we stand on physics and mechanics changes. Do we have any characters that need tweaks? Do we want to investigate higher gravity settings? Basically, where do we want to go from here.

Personally, I'm fine with the mechanics/grav settings as they are. I think we've come this far with them for the past however many months, and we're good with them as is, unless there's maybe one or two characters who have outstanding issues that need smoothing over. I think this, because most people are used to the physics as they are now. And I think that changing it now would be foolish, in addition to the potential backlash, because of the time we already spent very painstakingly and carefully planning the current mechanics out. We spent probably 3 weeks working on the jump/grav code to make it our foundation, and so it is. If we want to redo our foundation now, we're going to have to basically start the whole project over. I'm just asking if you all think that it's worth the potential outcome.

I would like you all to stick to just mechanics right now in this topic. If you want somewhere to vocalize about some particular balance change or glitch, there are plenty of other topics for that. Let's keep this to justs simple things like gravity settings, jump heighs, and run speeds, and we will build from there.

Thanks, now Discuss.

 

[shanus]

Honestly, I too am mostly fine with current settings.

Here is what I would like to do:
-For the characters which feel slow, convert their dgrav into fgrav
-Hopefully determine a method to fix autosnapping during hitlag (probably by use of the 0C function on like a hundred subactions :-( .....)
-Ledgeteching (i found location for when game determines if you can walltech, and I *believe* i know the variable for hitlag)
-Remap footstools to button of choice (we know exact code location, just need fighter.pac loader)
-Drop hitstun (slightly)

Personally, nothing radical.

 

[Veril]

The games physics feel really good to me in its current iteration. I think changing hitstun universally (unless we're just removing the .0065, which will most likely do NOTHING) is a terrible idea. It would force us to do an amazing amount of rebalancing as it would be changing one of, if not the most, fundamental aspects of the game physics.

Most of the complaints (sometimes legit criticism, usually johns) I've been hearing is a result of this being a new game. I highly doubt that anyone has anywhere near perfect (S)DI. The skill involved in comboing has simply improved at a greater rate than the ability to deal with them. Sure, there are people who are amazing at this game, but we've had this release out for LESS THAN A GODD*** MONTH and we're freaking the f*** out to an amazing degree. What we need to focus on is finding the bugs that genuinely **** the game, and remove them.

We should give people a chance to really get good at this game before we change it again. And plz plz plz omgplz let me actually have the time to work on my various projects with 5.0.

EXCEPT: remapping footstools has no downside whatsoever. It only improves player control over their character, which imo is very desirable. It doesn't change footstools themselves in any way. Lets do it!

 

[shanus]

The main question is what do we want to remap it to?

So far I like either:

Pressing up+jump

OR

Pressing A+B

 

[Yeroc]

I am and I think most people would agree that a very minor hitstun tweak for our current physics would be an acceptable change.

The question is, where are the rough spots in the physics still? Who still needs work? Polling the public might make somewhat shortened work of it, but it could also bring on the "moar dgrav!!!1" onslaught too. So basically, are there any characters already in mind that might need some final tweaks?

Edit: I vote for up+jump.

 

[GHNeko]

up + jump = no good for players who use tap jump OR short cut for players who use tap jump. V:

 

[shanus]

up + jump = no good for players who use tap jump OR short cut for players who use tap jump. V:

I use tap jump.

To me it seems proper that if you don't space yourself for a FS you use your regular jump.

Edit: I can also see about adding button NOT pressed: 0 or 1 as well so that up+A+jump or up+B+jump doesn't trigger it, either.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm just saying that because Tap jump counts as both up + jump, so that might just hurt or help remapping it to up + jump, at least in theory. <_<

If anything, it wont effect tap jumpers and would help them because they could still use up + jump at the same time

 

[Revven]

I want to see hitstun go down enough so that it makes a difference in what combos are possible. Personally, comboing from a get-up attack with NO DI is stupid. Another example that has happened before, is DDD's sourspot Fsmash can combo into aerials which I think is another dumb thing to happen with this game.

Too many things combo into the other moves a little... too well. There's two reasons for that, I think.

1) All of them have the generalized angle of 169 so they have a chance of tripping when used near the ground and the angle is constantly changing. So, I could be at 50% and hit you with Bair and it'll send at a 40º angle like it should but, at say... 140% it'll hit you at a 60º angle and combo into Uair somehow and kill them. If you didn't want to drop hitstin down by a whole .4 (meaning .44) then we would have to go through every move in the game and whatever has the 169 change it to an appropriate angle so that it doesn't stupidly combo into a move it shouldn't. This would include ledge-attacks and get-up attacks as MOST OF THEM have that angle and is how I was able to combo from a get-up attack before (or was it a ledge attack? I think it was DK's >100% ledge-attack which combo'd into Uair with no DI).

2) Drop hitstun down by .4 bringing it down to .44. Does anyone remember leaf's information regarding the hitstun code? Dropping it down to .47 wouldn't make hardly any difference at all. Dropping it down to .46 would also not make much of a difference. .45 or .44 would though, and either one I'm fine with. Testing each value would seem like the best thing to do though before we do "theorysmash". However, I don't think I need to bring up leaf's post again about the hitstun code, right? Because that's partially why I won't agree to dropping it down by only .1 or .2 unless it winds up making a difference (but it has to be NOTICEABLEEEEE).

I also want to see tweaking of gravities depending on how much the hitstun is dropped. And of course, looking at the defense a little more (namely shields and retweaking spot dodges a bit more) would be ideal but, not necessary.

 

[Yeroc]

Neko: PSA Requirement Button 2 doesn't recognize analog up. So it's perfectly mappable to a stick direction AND an actual button press.

 

[shanus]

I'm just saying that because Tap jump counts as both up + jump, so that might just hurt or help remapping it to up + jump, at least in theory. <_<

If anything, it wont effect tap jumpers and would help them because they could still use up + jump at the same time

No, you are wrong. The games programming does not count the input of up as a jump, programming it (even for tap jump on people), would require up+jump, up alone for tap jumpers would not work.

 

[GHNeko]

But wouldnt it still be likely to eat DJs than tap jump off up + jump

 

[shanus]

But wouldnt it still be likely to eat DJs than tap jump off up + jump

No, because either system is inputting a jump.

10failedfootstoolspacing

 

[GHNeko]

kk. I'm still iffy about up + jump for whatever reason, but eh. <_<

 

[Veril]

If we are going to lower hitstun to the point where it is noticable (ie, to .44 or .45) we must do it now. Otherwise we've defeated the entire purpose of keeping this 5.0 release out and unchanged for some time. I can't believe how soon after we've decided to actually stick to a release you all want to overhaul the system.

If anyone thinks we can lower hitstun universally with no other rebalancing... you're insane. Seeing as the problem lies with these 169° angle moves I think it would be much better to modify them than all hitstun.

This thread makes me sad.

 

[Revven]

If anyone thinks we can lower hitstun universally with no other rebalancing... you're insane.

Nobody is thinking that.

 

[Shell]

As far as gravity goes, when we initially made our grav values, we were under quite a few more constraints than we are now.

For example, many gravities were determined by the necessity of preserving an already strict AC timing and / or the quality of their recovery.

Look at Ganon, for example -- his 2-3 frame window on AC dair didn't really allow for much change in his SH height or gravity, and his weak recovery further necessitated a floaty style.

Then, PSA opened up a world of new options. It was now possible to adjust his gravity and keep the AC window on Dair the same, while maintaining his overall Vertical Fall distance to Horizontal Fall distance ratio about the same by upping his aerial mobility slightly, and the inclusion of the WizKick recovery futher reduced the need for a floaty recovery.

I think it'd be good for everyone to look at their mains, and try converting any remaining d-grav straight to additional u-grav (compensating jumps / FF), and then ensure any double aerial or AC windows remain with minor frame speed modifications. From there, play around with increased gravity if it would help the character and wouldn't require excessive corrections. If recovery is impacted too negatively, air speeds can be tweaked as well.

That all sounds like a lot of variables to play with, but I'm not really pushing for many dramatic changes.

I agree with Yeroc etc. that changing something too much too late can be detrimental and cause back-lash, but I'd just like to remind everyone that the Boozer changes have been well praised (aside from combo-ability issues, as mentioned), so there's no reason to avoid trying something just because it sounds like too much of a change -- just make sure the community likes it in a nightly / RC first.

I'll consider the other mechanics further as I have time and compose my thoughts.

 

[VietGeek]

How comprehensive is gravity modifications done in the .pac directly? I think that'd allow us to make better physics since we're no longer restricted to pre-determined float values.

But if directly editing attributes is deemed less powerful than the old gravity code then =<

Note: I believe Shell has somewhat delved into this topic.

 

[Revven]

Oh, and I forgot one other thing:

Mess with ledge grab ranges, at least the ones that ARE ridiculous (*cough* FALCON'S *cough*)

 

[Blank Mauser]

Oh, and I forgot one other thing:

Mess with ledge grab ranges, at least the ones that ARE ridiculous (*cough* FALCON'S *cough*)

I still don't see why we need to mess with these at all, especially a character like Falcon who still has a pretty bad recovery anyways.

I'm fine with most the mechanics and gravity, but I don't believe lowering hitstun will fix anything. I agree with Veril in that we should address problem moves and combos before tweaking hitstun, otherwise X stupid combo will probably still work regardless but X-should-be legit combo could be ruined. More of an inconvenience then anything. I know way too many combos that just barely work, and it makes a difference on a lot of floaties.