Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Zankoku]

If you say so.

 

[Lobos]

I got a chance to watch the pros at MLG DC and I must say........those guys are ridiculous...

lol @ Grand Finals only being like 10mins.....****

 

[Zone]

Saying Protoss is boring is an opinion saying they have no viable air units and are not diverse is not an opinion that's all ankoku was mentioning. phoenix are good at picking up ghosts out of an army before they can emp they beat the crap out of mutalisk, **** a Zerg base If they have no spores or hydras up. Void rays are ok to mix into your army when a Terran player goes a little mote rauder heavy than marines thinking your making stalker and Zealots which you said you were. Dunno how you were beating people only making zealots stalkers and high Templars and colossus. Dts on the field alone makes you opponent need detection at every expo and his army makin him drop a ton of resources. I do think archons need a tweak cuz colossus stole their job

Just to note Zerg has a few not so viable units I don't think broodlords are cost effective they are a good unit but not for it's cost from my experience. Also mind control is a waste of an ability slot.

Zerg plays way different you might enjoy it they are about speed numbers and they are totally capable of hard pressure with overlords overseers mutas , burrow army siZe deception. Just need to be creative

 

[ArcNatural]

Yeah the only thing that seemed a little disheartening is IdRA who is a master at macro never had to go beyond T2 to beat anyone.

I don't think Z are overpowered just yet, since the other Zergs fell just fine. I do think Terran need to learn to possibly do what they did in BW. Turtle, scout a bit, move out with sizable force while expanding. I believe IdRA when he says that Korean terrans were affected far less than Americans since they are much more macro than Americans are.

I mean lets face it, a majority of low-mid diamond players got there by doing some type of constant cheese/harass while Zerg had to struggle to overcome that. With the changes any Zerg used to having to defend that kind of stuff is just going to be way better at Terrans still trying to do was successful before.

I don't think the new patch affects PvZ that much. Other than again, Protoss trying to do some easy harass with micro or blink micro against roaches then if successful you could easily tech up to colossus and destroy. I think if you see roaches now if you plan on using Zealots longer than early game charge is required. Immortals are still great vs roaches. Roaches do give the option of having a decent early rush for Z (come on now, T and P have had early rushes that were safe forever and you had to scout it as Z or lose).

And I mean all this from a vs Z standpoint. From what I understand TvP is still wierd, and I do think there will be more balancing so I'm not too worried.

 

[JTB]

I got a chance to watch the pros at MLG DC and I must say........those guys are ridiculous...

lol @ Grand Finals only being like 10mins.....****

watch gsl

get mind blown

 

[Hylian]

watch gsl

get mind blown

TLO just got destroyed .

 

[Zankoku]

Destroyed? Not really. The first game was a pretty big mistake on army composition, since Thors vs Immortals is a hard loss once numbers surpass four or so. Second game TLO's decision to save three scans was amazingly clutch, and the early Thor rush hit pretty hard. Third game was a combination of not scouting and not pulling SCVs early enough to defend against the 4-gate. I would describe Apple vs Phoenix or Loner vs Bleach as more of a case of being destroyed, as those looked far more like someone getting straight up out-played.

 

[ArcNatural]

Are the GSL matches up on VoD? I doubt I can watch the livestreams (it's on around 6am isn't it). If so I may consider buying a subscription to watch the HD VoDs and such.

 

[Zankoku]

The VODs go up like 30 minutes after the matches actually happen, so if you're interested in seeing them, might as well.

 

[Hylian]

You can only watch the first match unless you have a ticket or whatever though. I just watch the livestream heh.


Edit:

Who won between HopeTorture and Flint? I saw Flint win the first game, pretty crazy if he wins the set. Tester losing to him doesn't look so bad lol.

 

[shanus]

Shanus I dunno where you get this 3.5 stuff but if you count my first overlord to cancel out your required pylon where we usually build our pool at 14 or 15 the. We need one more building to get ultras out of any of those options

I also want to add I generally need 3 bases to consider ultra I can sometimes get and few off 2 but because I can't protect them as well as you can your colossus and ht cuz ultras are melée. Best bet I got to protect them
Is to bring a couple queens with my overlords which I have done. Much easier to spread creep with a Ovie and 1 queen as well run around the map and drop tumors on ovie creep. Spreads faster and better but despite all this I feel Zerg v Protoss is pretty even but it is a little map dependant.

.5 is added on based on the viability being that solid collos use and templar use (asde from feedback) is based on two key upgrades (thermal lance and psi storm) which are both as costly as the tech structure itself(200/200 for each of them). No matter how you spin it, feedback nerf on thors and corruptors is way more substantial than you guys give credit for.

 

[Zankoku]

I dunno, I just watched mass Immortals invalidate Thors at GSL, and the only time they were successful was in an early timing attack with three scans stocked up for Dark Templar.

 

[M@v]

top 3 in my plat division, clawing my way closer and closer to diamond, lol.

 

[Rubyiris]

im still in silver, cuz im garbage. <3

anyone want to **** my face sometime in the future? I play R.

protoss lacks air? surely you jest?

 

[ArcNatural]

im still in silver, cuz im garbage. <3

anyone want to **** my face sometime in the future? I play R.

Sure you can add me at ArcNatural@comcast.net

I'm currently top gold, so I'm not too far ahead of you. Playing a lot of custom games has made me get a lot better quickly. Hopefully once I go back to laddering (trying to work in SLush's FE to roach build and just get basic roach build down since it's now not just a gimicky all-in anymore).

I play Z if you didn't guess heh.

 

[Rubyiris]

I've been at the top of my Silver league for like, a month now.

Still not good enough for gold league though. Hopefully I'll break my 50/50% ratio and move up... eventually.

Also; Friend request sent. GG7 and I share an acc. Aka he never plays. :3

 

[shanus]

Of course Protoss lacks air, its well'acknowledged that protoss air is the weakest of all races and now is furthermore reinforced as more support based given 1.2. There is no question about it.

 

[Rubyiris]

as i posted that, i completely forgot they nerfed voidrays lol.

void ray(s) and carrier(s) are still very good support units. >_>

 

[M@v]

Voidrays make carriers obsolete imo. And voidrays got nerfed now, so they arent as good. Maybe toss should start going carriers...oh wait, marines, terrans T1 unit, ***** the carrier which is t3. K then.

Mass charged void rays are almost unstoppable, other then that they aren't good. And its a loonngg time before they get massed like that.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Carriers are not worth the price and void rays are just... not worth it at all anymore. Warp prisms and phoenix uses are too situational and easily replaced by other units. Basically, if you build a star gate, you're doing it wrong.

 

[shanus]

Except for Pheonixes v Muta, and even then its questionable given how labor intensive pheonix micro is to keep their fragile selves alive.

 

[Zone]

I think phoenix Are underrated they pick up tanks that are seiged are pretty good at harass they **** muta overlords pick off queens pick up special units is nice too but obviously the pick up tanks and stuff only works with army support since tanks are almost always backed by units

 

[Melomaniacal]

Except for Pheonixes v Muta, and even then its questionable given how labor intensive pheonix micro is to keep their fragile selves alive.

Exactly.
... I don't really have anything else to add to this... I just agree.

I think phoenix Are underrated they pick up tanks that are seiged are pretty good at harass they **** muta overlords pick off queens pick up special units is nice too but obviously the pick up tanks and stuff only works with army support since tanks are almost always backed by units

Again, too situational, and too micro intensive when I can just get some **** blink stalkers.
The only time I really feel that I should get some phoenixes is when there are tanks on the field, and even then it's not totally needed.

 

[ArcNatural]

I've been at the top of my Silver league for like, a month now.

Still not good enough for gold league though. Hopefully I'll break my 50/50% ratio and move up... eventually.

Also; Friend request sent. GG7 and I share an acc. Aka he never plays. :3

Cool, I'll be on later tonight (I work 9-5 EST). Random is a little trickier obviously. It's all about the macro from bronze-low diamond.

 

[Zankoku]

Phoenixes are good for dealing with mass Mutalisks, as otherwise relying on Blink Stalkers will only keep you contained as the Zerg expands everywhere.

I also hope nobody's building a Stargate for Warp Prisms. : j

Since when did Marines **** Carriers? Unless you have some absurd number of Marines compared to the Carriers, armor will innately reduce Marine damage by a third of what it is normally, and four fully upgraded Interceptors will one-shot an unarmored Marine, or six on a fully armor-upgraded Marine. As long as you're not running just two at a time against an army of Marines, shooting down Interceptors shouldn't be very cost-effective. Sure, if you build a few Carriers on two bases you're gonna get ***** just as hard as Marines **** lone Battlecruisers, but at three or four bases, when you can support keeping a couple on the field defended by Gateway units, it deals incredible damage. What you should really be scared of in PvT with Carriers are Vikings, which will likely show up if you built Colossi, and absolutely destroy Carriers.

I agree that Voids see little use in PvT, since the dominant strategy in that matchup for T is MMM (+Ghost), which severely reduces Void Rays' effectiveness. It's a good pick for shutting down Siege Tanks and Thors, but so are Immortals, which are cheaper, less fragile, and come from a more relevant structure.

 

[M@v]

a bunch of marines stimmed will eat the interceptors for breakfast(which i totally disagree with btw, interceptors should be like how they were in sc1; near impossible to kill. I mean seriously, its not hard to focus fire the **** carrier. /rant)
ANYWAY, viking own carriers even worse like you said. If i faced mass carriers, i'd prefer to have mass vikings, but i'd likely have mixed ground + some vikings, which is where the stimmed marines come into play.

 

[Zankoku]

Interceptors are equally fragile in BW and SC2. I suppose there's the difference that Interceptors no longer auto-heal when they return to the Carrier. Marines are buffed.

 

[Zone]

Exactly.
... I don't really have anything else to add to this... I just agree.



Again, too situational, and too micro intensive when I can just get some **** blink stalkers.
The only time I really feel that I should get some phoenixes is when there are tanks on the field, and even then it's not totally needed.

Blink stalkers are not the answer to everything...:/

Just saying me and my toss friend have been experimenting with units and armies and phoenix picking up my best units is annoying sure I could focus fire them but while I'm doing that you ground army is destroying me. Basically playing with units that don't seem to get much gametime. Still haven't found a use for good old infestor mind control what a crap ability

 

[Melomaniacal]

Blink stalkers are not the answer to everything...:/

Yuh-huh.



... okay, I'm going to stop there. I know they aren't the answer to everything... but they can always be at least part of the answer.

 

[Rubyiris]

everyone debunking carriers: Please watch Day-9's funday monday about carrier rushing. Specifically; Please also note the special encore presentation of Huk carrier rushing, and his mother ship rush (similar strat) that was posted about a week prior.

Then please come back here and say that carriers get easy-moded. Please also note how often the carriers either:

A. Payed for themselves.
B. Killed double their cost.
C. Outright won them the game.

Also please note that if they're focus-firing your air, they aren't damaging, or doing negligible damage to your ground army. That is nothing but an adv. as your zealots and stalkers do work on their ground army.

 

[Melomaniacal]

everyone debunking carriers: Please watch Day-9's funday monday about carrier rushing. Specifically; Please also note the special encore presentation of Huk carrier rushing, and his mother ship rush (similar strat) that was posted about a week prior.

Then please come back here and say that carriers get easy-moded. Please also note how often the carriers either:

A. Payed for themselves.
B. Killed double their cost.
C. Outright won them the game.

Also please note that if they're focus-firing your air, they aren't damaging, or doing negligible damage to your ground army. That is nothing but an adv. as your zealots and stalkers do work on their ground army.

You have to first understand how many people tried the carrier rush for the Funday Monday, then understand that the vast majority of them did not work. He only showed a few. Sometimes people lose to things they didn't have to lose to. Sometimes I send my starting workers to my enemy's base and attack with them and win. Sometimes someone will rush a carrier or mother ship and win.

The bottom line is that carriers and mother ships are absolutely not worth getting in the vast majority of high level games. This isn't something that a few people on smashboards agree with, it's something the vast majority of the competitive Starcraft 2 community agrees with.

 

[Zankoku]

HuK actually sent replays of him beating high-ranking European players with his Carrier rushes.

 

[shanus]

everyone debunking carriers: Please watch Day-9's funday monday about carrier rushing. Specifically; Please also note the special encore presentation of Huk carrier rushing, and his mother ship rush (similar strat) that was posted about a week prior.

Then please come back here and say that carriers get easy-moded. Please also note how often the carriers either:

A. Payed for themselves.
B. Killed double their cost.
C. Outright won them the game.

Also please note that if they're focus-firing your air, they aren't damaging, or doing negligible damage to your ground army. That is nothing but an adv. as your zealots and stalkers do work on their ground army.

Funday monday no way justifies carriers as a solid build. This just in, I've won games with Mothership rushes. Huks games with carrier rushes were also hugely close basetrades showing how difficult it can be at high level play to win with. Muta/Corruptor/Ling builds destroy any form of carriers, as an example, and is literally the default build versus toss.

Also, marines completely destroy carriers Ankoku, have you seen how fast they decimate interceptors now? It's even worse if they have a raven out (or vikings LOL), which isn't hard since the protoss has... carriers.

There is no support or justification for protoss having even half decent air. Pheonixes don't even counter mass muta well enough due to how fragile they are. Once a muta ball hits 8-12 it gets extremely difficult to deal with, as the balance of pheonix to zealots/stalkers is extremely resource intensive. If you try to get a large enough pheonix count to deal with the mutas, the next larva pop to lings will eat your face in off of 3bases. It also results in an easy contain on the zergs behalf allowing for easy 3base play for z. In the meanwhile, you can get ~6 pheonix with ~6 stalkers and a few zealots (clear example is LegalMind in GSL2 game 1) and at that point you are completely contained and still have difficulty with the muta ball.

PvZ lingmuta is a devastating combo that is so hard to deal with.

 

[Melomaniacal]

HuK actually sent replays of him beating high-ranking European players with his Carrier rushes.

I know. He's also beaten high level players with a mother ship rush. These things happen sometimes.

 

[Zone]

That's why you don't mass carriers. I like 2-3 of them mix into your army cuz then they try to focus fire your carriers and you can micro retreat. let ur ground army get some dmg in. if they attack move, bring back out ur interceptors to take dmg for ur ground army. when they refocus fire or try to. retreat back behind ur army again. if vikings are coming for ur carriers run them back. blink yoru stalkers back as well so they are also away from the ground force and fight the vikings with stalker and carriers at the same time.

I think mass carrier is not a good idea. I think mixing like 2-3 with ur army is quite nice.

massing only one unit is almost never a good idea. unless occasionally your in teams where your 1 unit covers eachothers weaknesses. like I went mass ultra/ling, my teamate went all pheonix(late game.) Worked out really nicely.

Or for example double zerg and a terran in 3v3
it's a pretty broken move when the terran masses dropships with the double zerg army

 

[shanus]

That's why you don't mass carriers. I like 2-3 of them mix into your army cuz then they try to focus fire your carriers and you can micro retreat. let ur ground army get some dmg in. if they attack move, bring back out ur interceptors to take dmg for ur ground army. when they refocus fire or try to. retreat back behind ur army again. if vikings are coming for ur carriers run them back. blink yoru stalkers back as well so they are also away from the ground force and fight the vikings with stalker and carriers at the same time.

I think mass carrier is not a good idea. I think mixing like 2-3 with ur army is quite nice.

And incredibly not resource effective. You lose any ground based synergies, encourage building any air based counters which amplifies your weakness, nullifying any potential use of collosus. There is no such thing as a surprise 2-3 carrier given how late game it is, and its just really so costly and slow that its not a viable true strategy. Sure it might work once in a blue moon, but do you really call it a good strat? Definitely not, especially at diamond and pro level play.

 

[Zone]

And incredibly not resource effective. You lose any ground based synergies, encourage building any air based counters which amplifies your weakness, nullifying any potential use of collosus. There is no such thing as a surprise 2-3 carrier given how late game it is, and its just really so costly and slow that its not a viable true strategy. Sure it might work once in a blue moon, but do you really call it a good strat? Definitely not, especially at diamond and pro level play.

I'm not saying it's practical to use carriers.

I'm just saying if your gonna make them you don't mass them. That's all i'm saying.

I can't tell you how many times me and my toss friend teamed and we had a clear lead and when he went carriers, the match ended up being closer than it needed to be.

EDIT: to add to carrier insufficiency. the way i described using them. the fact that they can fly is nearly negated because flying is suppose to give you cliff advantage well if their only sorta ok use is with the army. well wth lol. Colosuss can scale cliffs move almost the same speed(feels like it). but do better against MM lings and zealots. Carriers just serve a different purpose they absorb dmg with their interceptors with exceptional micro. where as colossus deal better damage.

But yeah I know i'd rather have a colossus in my army than a carrier most of the time when given the choice. and more than likely your colossus will have upgrades not your carriers

i mean the only times i've seen toss upgrade their air is when they void ray rush lol.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Protoss air is basically just bad.

I don't play Toss but I was just wondering what Toss can do vs. lots of mutas?

 

[Zankoku]

Phoenix and Blink Stalkers are really the only answer. In direct engagement, Sentries help a lot.

 

[Rubyiris]

too much theorycraft itt.