Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[rhan]

I think that might have been his first or second match of the night. Either way no johns. I was stuck in Plat for a while too don't sweat it.

Also how "fast" should the reapers come out? Because he told me that I was too slow on them too.. I don't quite know or understand the time the reaper should be out. I just know the standard build order in the beginning.

 

[JTB]

I don't know the exact build for it, but when I get reaper rushed, there are usually one or two in my base when I start putting down spines.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I finally beat a decent zerg player, yay me.

Granted he went nydus worms, buuuuutt still :D

If you utilize Nydus worms effectively and aren't stupid about them then they can be pretty helpful. Especially if you don't just use them to bring stuff in, but also to retreat.

 

[shanus]

6rax reapers are for the true shameful people!


Regarding race imbalances, I still stand true to think that T is still the best (as does the entire TL and BNET community..) as their innate unit composition has the highest number of counters and options, making the other races have to work harder for the win. However, I feel this imbalance is only truly of note in extremely high level play, and not really observable.

However, regarding your statement of Toss counters Zerg, I have to disagree. As I'm plunging higher and higher into diamond, I've found myself agreeing more and more with Day9 and HDStarcraft, and thats that I believe zerg is the best race once you pass the midgame point. A zerg with good micro with mutaling is seriously difficult to counter nowadays, and is probably my most hated build now. It's really the fact that Toss AA is so weak, and once a critical mass is out there, its really a nasty threshhold. I beat most terrans nowadays, but mutaling has been making my life difficult. It basically forces me to 2gate or 4gate, and its rather all-in. The only thing I've found to work sometimes is an extremely fast expand, but thats risky in itself.

 

[AltF4]

In my experience so far, the weakness to muta-ling is that:

1) Mutas don't hit a significant number until well into the mid game. You're left pretty weak in the early game and early-mid game until you've got at least 8.

2) Mutas cost a LOT of gas. If you want to get any kind of decent force out in a reasonable amount of time, you have to expand quickly. Usually it takes a fast expand, plus mining gas from all 4 geysers almost immediately.

3) Both mutas and lings are fragile units. One misstep in micro and your whole army is dead.


So to counter I'd suggest:

1) Early pressure. Not "all in" builds. Just enough pressure to force the Zerg into slowing down expansion timing, or forcing him to make roaches or banelings. Both of which cost gas and will slow the whole build down.

2) A little bit of air defense. Possibly just a single turret/cannon and some units. Usually, a Zerg will push out with the first group of mutas that pop out, which is like 5-6 of them. That's not enough to take on a turret. And certainly not cannon + couple of stalkers.

Now suddenly you've thwarted the mutas until there's probably a least 12 of them. At which point you're well into the mid game. And haven't really had to do much.

3) High Templars with storm. Mutas and particularly lings die so fast to a good storm or two. If you put a good one or two down and your opponent doesn't micro it perfectly, he can lose his whole army.

4) Just push out. Mutas and lings are fast and nimble units, but in a straight up fight against equal supply Toss or Terra army, they just lose. If you can get a decent sized army right before the point where mutas hit a large mass, then push out and win.

 

[shanus]

The problem is, I'm not talking about bad zerg players. I've beaten plenty of decent zergs, but I'm talking about like 1200+ pt zergs that I have been playing against in Diamond. In most cases my pushes aren't all-in (standard or korean 4gate) or early chargelot into templar.

These zergs were managing persistent pressure and map control with speedlings into muta. The problem with the muta is their persistent base harass through entire base, not just probeline, requiring dance between natural and main while they establish map control. These were excellent players, and storms weren't good enough for them.

Also a single cannon is not nearly as good as a missile turret, it takes a good 3 cannons to thwart off a 12 group of mutas they can micro away the hurt muta pretty quickly.

And the second I balance my army too heavy on the stalkers, the lings become the issue, or a hard tech to ultras. I've won some, and been very close, but its these top echelon zergs have been my hardest opponent (I've been going a good 75% win/record as of late though.

 

[M@v]

Ill get some replays of me up later, but I ***** this diamond toss player yesterday. He was getting charge lots and I think he was going to get temps....too bad he didnt see my cloaked banshees until they killed all of his workers. He had 0 anti air.



Yay for walling in and preventing him from seeing my early 2 gas xP



@shanus.


I agree, **** muta harass, its actually really hard for terran to deal with unless they got a good amount of vikings. Marines and thors cant keep up.

 

[AltF4]

Thors can't keep up in terms of mobility. But they sure do obliterate mutas in an actual fight. Two volleys and the whole pack will be at half health. Mutas have to run like mad anytime they see a Thor. Especially when you consider army cost.

12 mutas: 1200/1200, 24 supply.
1 Thor: 300/200, 6 supply

I could just as easily complain about how badly Hellions counter Lings. 4 Hellions with blue flame pretty much counter an infinite number of lings, it's silly. But then, if Terran mis-micro's the Hellions, then some lings can take them out. It's the same thing.

 

[JTB]

mutas beat thors in 3:1 odds

or it might be 4

 

[AvaricePanda]

mutas kinda kill Thors in good numbers when they use the magic box. IIRC from PsyStarcraft's Magic Box demonstration he used 24 Mutas against 4 Thors, and he killed all 4 Thors while still keeping 20 Mutas.

They still aren't cost effective vs. them but they don't get pooped on.

 

[M@v]

http://www.sc2replayed.com/users/pghMav

Heres a few of my replays.

 

[Lobos]

yeah Ive been using the magicbox with mutas and it makes a difference

 

[AltF4]

Watching this made me very sad:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9585839

 

[JTB]

Yeah the second game was gay, but it wins tournaments

The only thing I think that should've tipped off was that the robo bay was never making anything

 

[M@v]

 

[rhan]

LMFAO ! That cheered me up after all this bull**** tier discussion for Melee...

Voids are good the way they are. Mutas/Hydras/Marines **** them hard.

 

[AltF4]

I think Melee is a bad example, rhan. Melee actually does have clear imbalances that would be fixed if only the game were online and patchable.

But Void Rays? Nah. I don't think there's a big problem with them. They cost a lot and die easily. So they're kind of a risk just on that basis.

My only problem is that Zerg has virtually no anti-air in Tier 1. It's literally just Queens and Spore crawlers. Both of which die miserably to more than one void Ray together. If you don't see the Void Rays coming (like in a proxy) it's GG. And that's not really something that's very fun. Especially since it's not even all-in to go void ray proxy.

A little more ability to scout before midgame is what Zerg need. After the initial worker, Zerg are completely blind until tier 2. So most strats against them just involve walling in, hiding your tech, and pushing out right as Tier 2 hits with some mystery force that the Zerg will have had no way to prepare for.

 

[M@v]

voids are pretty dumb in 3v3s and 4v4s though. I've seen many of them devolve into which team can out-void the other.

 

[Melomaniacal]

So, I've realized that I can't win against people who mass air units. I just can't. Stalkers don't have the maneuverability I need to stop it, Phoenixes are just bad altogether, Void Rays seem like the only possible option, but that's only if I can get them charged on something.

 

[M@v]

"Phoenixes are just bad altogether"

Good joke. You realize 1 phoenix is way better than 1 viking? Viking's only advantage is range; everything else is in the phoenix's favor. Also, it makes almost any ground unit helpless with graviton beam.

 

[Lobos]

You have to attack them before they mass air units

 

[Melomaniacal]

"Phoenixes are just bad altogether"

Good joke. You realize 1 phoenix is way better than 1 viking? Viking's only advantage is range; everything else is in the phoenix's favor. Also, it makes almost any ground unit helpless with graviton beam.

You can't really think of it as a 1-to-1 thing, because that rarely happens.
The only real use I've found for Phoenixes is lifting siege tanks. Other than that, they just get ***** by Marines+Vikings, or Mutas+Hydras. Anyone with half-decent micro takes out those squishy Phoenixes before they get a chance to do anything useful.

I think the big issue (and this only applies to Terran) is that I can't scout the air massing before it's too late. I send my probe out early, he dies before anything big happens. If I send it out any later, he's already blocked off. I send an observer out - oh wait there are missile turrets, that didn't help at all. So I have to attack him first, which I usually do, and that's when I find out what he has. At that point it's usually too late to try and counter it if he is massing air. It becomes a guessing game.

You have to attack them before they mass air units

I have to attack them and win in my first attack. If it were that easy, this would be a terrible game. Not that it isn't possible, but just lately I've been playing these really defensive players where I can't break through early, and I can't get in to scout, so I have to guess what they are doing. If I guess that it's mass air, sure, I'll be alright.

 

[Lobos]

If someone is playing defensive just trap them and make them use the mins/gas on trying to defend you and to stop any expansions. then its GG

 

[shanus]

I think Melee is a bad example, rhan. Melee actually does have clear imbalances that would be fixed if only the game were online and patchable.

But Void Rays? Nah. I don't think there's a big problem with them. They cost a lot and die easily. So they're kind of a risk just on that basis.

My only problem is that Zerg has virtually no anti-air in Tier 1. It's literally just Queens and Spore crawlers. Both of which die miserably to more than one void Ray together. If you don't see the Void Rays coming (like in a proxy) it's GG. And that's not really something that's very fun. Especially since it's not even all-in to go void ray proxy.

A little more ability to scout before midgame is what Zerg need. After the initial worker, Zerg are completely blind until tier 2. So most strats against them just involve walling in, hiding your tech, and pushing out right as Tier 2 hits with some mystery force that the Zerg will have had no way to prepare for.

2-3 queens healing each other can be incredibly difficult. However, 1-2 VRs+ Phoenix makes life a lot easier


Phoenix are useful, but just so micro intensive. Even if they are fragile and usually get rocked if your using them for picking up tanks, at that point chargelots should be in their face and you better be storming.


Melo: its rare to let someone just mass air units, you'd have to not put on any pressure. Everyone thinks 1 big attack is all they need, but constant pressure is far superior.

 

[M@v]

In speaking of queens....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWyO5Vq82hs&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO40O3q6J3g&feature=player_embedded

 

[Zankoku]

Phoenixes ****. Get four of them, start lifting workers and killing them instantly. Even with anti-air measures set up they move so fast that they can pull this off anyway. They can also scout well, and once you push or get pushed, you can start lifting ground units to turn what might've been a close battle into a much more favored one.

Also, I agree with shanus, if both players just sit there and mass 200 supply uncontested, the one with a better unit composition will just end up winning, because you've eliminated any advantage that better production, stronger economy, or superior micro could've given you. In the case of zerg, this is especially bad, because very few of their units are cost-effective when both players are maxed in supply.

 

[rhan]

Phoenix + Speed Upgrade = **** everything.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If you can micro Phoenixes well, they're pretty amazing.

 

[AltF4]

Team Liquid Open #1 going on. 453 entries, lots of pros. 31.8% Zerg attendance, quite high. Higher than Terran in fact.

By round 5, there were only 5 Zerg's left. (15% of remaining players). By round 6, there was only 1 Zerg. (6.25% of remaining players) Zerg has been doing terribly in tournament lately. Patch 1.1 comes out Tuesday, hope it improves things.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tournaments/admin/?action=bracket&id=105

 

[Zankoku]

The top 4 are all Terran, rofl

 

[M@v]

So yeah...played all day today...and got *****. I went like 6-14 or something horrific like that. I raged at one point, now Im borderline depressed(gamer depression, if you know what im getting at). *sigh*

Was not the most fun day I had.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I usually just play a few rounds, then quit while I'm up. Something about Starcraft in particular is really depressing/frustrating when you lose. I don't know. Whenever I lose I feel like a dumb-***.
Luckily, today I played three games and won them all. All against Terran. Bad Terran players are so easy. It's always the same: MMM, I get Collosi, they lose. I'm dreading the day when I have to play good Terran players who understand how amazing ghosts are against Protoss.

 

[M@v]

I dont use ghosts enough vs toss. I need to keep telling myself to pull them out once they start getting the hts. MM tanks do fine against everything else.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/83895-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war

Lolololololol. One of the most hillarious matches I've been a part of

 

[rhan]

Man... I haven't played this game for a week... I've been stuck working my job and playing Reach...

I'm free all day Tuesday and I play Reach religiously every morning. So I think I may devote that day to SCII.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I should play more. If I weren't so casual about it I would probably be in diamond by now. The thing is, I'm not sure if I even want to be in diamond. I just want to have fun with it, and don't feel like working my *** off every game.

 

[rhan]

I'm not too casual about this game. This is one of my SUPER competitive games. (Halo is my other then followed by Melee). Once I lost like 3 matches I quit for the rest of the day and do research. Or play my friends in customs and trying stuff.

Diamond is rough though... I've only beat like 2 other Diamond players since I been in this league. And for that to happen it only took about 10 - 15 games...

My APM is no where near some of the people I played... My average APM stays around 60 - 70. WHile there's is in like the hundreds... My mind/fingers can't work that fast..

 

[Zankoku]

Poor TLO

 

[Melomaniacal]

I don't get the Starcraft community's fascination with APM. APM is so easy to manipulate that it barely indicates anything to begin with. But the community has this whole mindset of "I NEED TO UP MY APM. MORE APM AND I WILL WIN MORE." First of all, I think that if you can win with less APM, that is better. That means you were more efficient. More importantly, it's not a matter of "increasing my APM," because 90% of the diamond players just spam waypoints and **** to increase it. Just remember to macro and micro efficiently and your APM should be decent. The question shouldn't be "how do I increase my APM," it should be "how do I micro and macro well at the same time." APM if an afterthought.

 

[Zankoku]

Macro, micro, and multitasking are the things you need to work on, yes, but higher APM is usually a result of that. By the same token, having a higher average APM will mean that you have a better capability of pulling that off. Proper macro involves constant checking of your resources and production, along with knowing when to expand. Micro is the most obviously APM-heavy aspect of the game, as while it starts with simple stuff like focus fire it starts becoming things like kiting, proper positioning, quick decisions, etc. that all just take a lot of focus and precision commands. Multitasking is performing all of that at the same time.

However, there is the fact that the thing a lot of people seem to forget first is macro, often lost in favor of micro combined with lack of multitasking. Hitting four digits of either resource is rarely a good thing.

Also, have you ever checked APM in replays early on? A lot of people "warm up" by hitting as high as 250-300 APM when there's nothing there except their base and a couple workers.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Yeah, I know.
The thing is, even the top level players manipulate their APM by giving everything multiple waypoints, spamming some clicks, etc. I watch tournament replays, I see them do it. What I want to know is pro-gamer effective APM, which is nearly impossible to tell.