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Stage Selection: The Liberal and Conservative Mindsets.

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
I wrote this with the original purpose of supplementing Xiivi's topic (it was even written with some collaboration by Xiivi), but it turned into an epic length post itself. The purpose is to make it easier for a TO to decide on stage rules; as a community we have managed to make quite the complex situation with them. We are both pretty much liberals, but we've done our best to be charitable to the conservative position and to be as fair as possible in discussing the situation with the various stages. If anyone feels there are parts of this document that are unfair, please do chime in.

There are two main philosophies that can succeed when structuring stage rules for a tournament, liberal and conservative. Here's a brief run-down of each.

In the liberal stage philosophy, the goal is to allow as much as possible without being "too unfair". A stage qualifies for a "lesser" status (starter going to counterpick or counterpick going to banned) if it either has "too much" randomness or character bias, but a liberal philosophy is going to do its best to be tolerant of both of these factors. Factors such as damaging hazards or movement that are not necessarily random or unfair but simply "different" are not going to be considered issues by the liberal at all. It would be unfair to assert that the liberal wants to "allow everything", but in the end variety is the highest virtue of the liberal.

In the conservative stage philosophy, the goal is to minimize "interference" in matches. In short, the conservative does not believe that the stage should be a very big factor in the game. Stages on which it is very hard for certain characters to win or in which random factors are reasonably likely to have a significant effect on the match are easy choices for the banned status for the conservative, and the conservative will only want the simplest of stages on a starter list. Even if a factor is not fundamentally unfair or random, if it has a significant effect on changing the dynamic of the match, the conservative will want to eliminate it. A conservative stage list is going to be very harsh on stages with hazards and movement for sure. It would be unfair to say that a conservative wants to play on "Final Destination only", but in the end simplicity and fairness are the highest virtues of the conservative.

When looking at the liberal philosophy, it's apparent that many players view stage selection and counterpicking to be a valuable part of the game. The ability to use a stage for an advantage that otherwise wouldn't be present in a character match-up is cherished by the more liberal philosophy. Whereas in the conservative philosophy, one of the main decisions is that a stage should be allowed to show some character bias; however, showing it to a high degree should be avoided entirely, even if the advantage it gives is not necessarily "broken". Basically, liberal players consider utilizing these stages as a skill, while conservative players do not.

Real tournaments are not going to strictly adhere to either philosophy, and it is best to aim somewhere in the middle. Different regions are going to be more liberal or more conservative on average, but your personal views as a tournament organizer are what are ultimately going to determine the rules. At no time should you forget that you need to cater to your players though; it would be a grave mistake to try to be too extreme with stage rules and to drive away players. It is your job as a TO to create a rule set that is accepted by your players. If you feel a stage is the perfect counterpick, but players bring complaints to you time and time again about the stage, you should always be willing to be flexible and listen to your players. After all, they are the ones playing the game, so they must be considered when making a stage list. Your tournament attendance will plummet if your players feel you aren't listening to them and taking their points seriously. The rest of this section will give you a rundown of every stage, the extreme possibilities for rules about it, and tips to help you decide with both philosophies what to do with the stage.

The first thing to decide is whether you are using stage striking or keeping the old random stage selection method. While most tournaments have gone ahead and followed the SBR with stage striking, there are still many regions that have not. Being knowledgeable of what your want helps this. If you are using stage striking, you'll be able to make your starter list more liberal. However if you wish to remain with the random stage selection, keeping the neutral stages to a minimum would be best for your players. More on stage striking later.

Battlefield
Highlights: This stage features three variously elevated platforms as well as a main stage with average spaced blast zones and easy to grab ledges.
Possible status: Starter
Reasoning: This stage is completely non-interactive, and the character biases are small throughout even if a few characters particularly like this stage. It's a really obvious good starter, and you are going to anger potential participants if you classify it as anything else.

Final Destination
Highlights: This stage features one main stage without any platforms an average spaced blast zones, and somewhat difficult to grab ledges.
Possible status: Starter
Reasoning: This stage is completely non-interactive, and the character biases are small throughout even if a few characters particularly like this stage. It's a really obvious good starter, and you are going to anger potential participants if you classify it as anything else.

Delfino Plaza
Highlights: The stage begins with a normal stage with various platform layouts. The bottom of the moving stage can be jumped through. The stage stops moving at various points where other features such as walls, walk-offs, and water are present. There are average spaced blast zones while moving; however, the blast zones become smaller at certain sections of the stage. The ledges can prove to be difficult for some characters to sweet spot.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: This stage moves, has a pass through floor for much of the time, has walk-offs and walls at many points, and has water at a few points which has a significant effect on gameplay. Conservatives want this stage as a counterpick because of all these various factors, especially the fact that King Dedede can get "instant kills" with his chaingrab in a lot of situations here. However, there are a variety of ways to avoid King Dedede on this stage, and the character biases are mostly small with him aside. A liberal can very easily get away with making this stage a starter stage, and a tournament host is fairly unlikely to be punished too much for deciding either way.

Luigi's Mansion
Highlights: This stage has multiple forms that are all dependent on the actions the players take. The most basic layout is a flat stage with nothing on it save for two occasional small platforms on the sides. The other layouts are various parts of the house that differ based on how the house is destroyed. The house offers pillars that can refresh stale moves as well as ceilings. The blast zones are abnormally large, and the stage features somewhat difficult to grab ledges.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage requires significantly different tactics than other stages, and it has very obvious and large character biases. It is not so extreme as to be too bad to allow however; the liberal will be a likely vocal advocate of this stage being a counterpick. Some conservatives hate this stage with a passion and will equally strongly argue to ban it, but some other conservatives are somewhat apathetic toward this stage since it has only a trivial moving component, no walk-off edges, no walls, and no hazards at all. In the end, you are not too likely to be punished for deciding either way on this stage, and it's safe to use your own judgment.

Mushroomy Kingdom
Highlights: Both stages move at a decent pace in a strictly horizontal fashion. Each stage offers abnormally small blast zones. There are various obstructions throughout the stage with pitfalls, walk-offs, ceilings, and walls all present at various points of either stage.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This is actually two stages, but they have a lot in common. The liberal and the conservative agree about banning 1-2 with essentially no dispute; the stage moves with constant walls and walk-offs and a ceiling to allow for lots of teching and has obvious huge and unfair character bias. 1-1 also moves and has very frequent walls and walk-offs, and that's way too much for any conservative. Even for most liberals it's too much, but sometimes you will find someone who thinks it would be alright as a counterpick. However, those players are in the minority, virtually no real tournaments allow this stage, and you are very likely to upset a significant portion of your players if you allow it.

Mario Circuit
Highlights: Walk-offs are present both on the elevated platforms and the main stage. This stage also features smaller blast zones and a common hazard that can hit you from the platforms and the main stage itself.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage has constant and mostly easily accessible walk-off ledges and hazards that, while weak, are present pretty frequently. For the conservative, it's a very easy choice to ban this stage. More liberal elements will like this stage as a counterpick, but a lot of the more moderate players will find themselves siding with the conservatives here as this stage can occasionally lead to very short blowouts that revolve around abusing the walk-offs. It is definitely the safer choice to ban this stage, but if you are going for a strongly liberal stage list, this stage can be a counterpick.

Rumble Falls
Highlights: The stage has multiple platforms and many pseudo-walkoffs. There is a hazard that can kill you if you fail to tech it as well as two weaker ones, but they all have a fixed position. The stage scrolls in a repeated vertical pattern that only changes in speed. The speed change is offset by the stage with a wind effect that pushes characters up with the stage.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: In the interest of disclosure, this author believes this stage is given a very unfair reputation, and he believes that the pseudo-walk-off ledges, movement, and hazards can be mitigated by players to a reasonable extent. However, that being said, all of those factors are present along with a random "speed up" element that is extremely obnoxious to the average player even if it is easy to see it happening. The conservative will be extremely upset if you allow this stage, and even among liberals you are not likely to find more than minimal support for allowing it. It is really the best choice to place this stage among the banned stages if you want your tournament to succeed.

Bridge of Eldin
Highlights: This stage is just one large stage with walkoffs and abnormally large blast zones. A well telegraphed hazard is present that can not only kill but also destroy the main stage, creating two large platforms separated by a pitfall.
Possible status: Banned (Possibly Counterpick/Banned in Doubles)
Reasoning: When looking at this stage and where you should place it, first look at what you decide for Mario Circuit. This stage is basically a "worse" Mario Circuit in terms of fairness in the eyes of most players so, if you ban Mario Circuit, ban this stage and don't give it a second thought. However, if you wanted to allow Mario Circuit, you may be curious why you should probably ban this stage anyway. The main additional factor here is that the stage is huge and, when chaingrabs are not being exploited, matches on this stage tend to take an extremely long time. That is a bit of a practical problem for tournaments, and more importantly most players find it extremely obnoxious. In terms of the walk-offs, the lack of platforms makes it even harder to avoid the chaingrabs than on Mario Circuit, and certain characters can abuse projectiles when the middle of the stage disappears to a large extent. It's not impossible to justify allowing this stage, but you are likely to upset a lot of players while appeasing few if you do allow it.

Pirate Ship
Highlights: This is a stage that goes through a various amount of sequences, all offering various hazards and features. The main stage has two platforms elevated directly above each other. There is a knockback-only hazard in the catapult that can be DIed such that it will never kill. The ship can pose as a OHKO hazard in the water, and there is water present the majority of the time with the stage. A small boat acting as a platform can appear. The ship can leave the water in a low gravity sequence. One sequence has a hazard with clear warning but devastating effects. A final transformation offers a wall and odd layout, and it also features an obscure glitch that lets characters with plunging down aerials get under the stage. The blast zones are spaced in a completely ordinary way.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage is a bit of an unusual stage in the sense that some more conservative players will argue to allow it while some more liberal players will argue to ban it. The two main "problems" the stage has that may make you consider banning this stage are a hazard that does a whopping 55% damage and the nearly constant presence of water. The hazard is just way too much for the most conservative players, but a majority of players find it predictable enough to not be a big problem. The water is controversial in the sense that the tactic of simply spending the entire match in the water while refusing to approach players on the ship seems to be overpowered. Some elements like to classify that tactic as stalling (a decision I would strongly advise against if you are a tournament host), and there are other players who argue that it's just not nearly as bad as it seems. This author is going to keep out of giving a verdict here and just say that you can pretty easily get away with going either direction on this stage.

Norfair
Highlights: The stage offers five platforms aligned in a V pattern without an actual main stage. There are multiple sequences with many hazards that can all be avoided with warning, usually by shielding. There is no platform that is always safe. The blast zones are spaced in a mostly ordinary, although the highest platforms are close. There are many ledges that a player can move around easily, and players can pass through all the platforms except the bottom one's center.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Liberals are extremely defensive of this stage, and conservatives tend to have a relatively easy time swallowing their distaste for it. The hazards are very frequent which greatly annoys the conservative, but they are really very easy to avoid to the point that the liberal is going to get upset if you invoke them as a reason for a ban. The platform layout is very odd, and it makes this stage a strong counterpick for quite a few characters. That is just another good reason to keep it for the liberal, but the conservative tends to be a bit frustrated by how effective ledge games are here. All in all, you definitely risk more by banning this stage than by placing it as a counterpick, but if you are in line with the conservatives it's not unthinkable to ban it.

Frigate Orpheon
Highlights: This stage features two layouts, both of which offer moving platforms. The blast zones are spaced in an ordinary way. The ledges are easy to grab, but the right side of the first layout does not have a ledge. The first stage offers a vertically moving platform as the right side of the main stage while the second portion offers two horizontally moving platforms on the outskirts of the stage. The stage changes with both a visual and audio warning.
Possible status: Counterpick
Reasoning: This stage is a bit funny because there are small elements that want the stage as a starter and small elements that want it as a banned stage, but those mostly cancel each other. The stage randomly sounds a siren and "flips" which disrupts gameplay and can kill players who respond poorly to the siren; that alone is enough to make the stage a bad choice for a starter for the conservative. The liberal is likely to be moved to the side of the conservative by the fact that the first form of this stage has no grab-able ledge on the right side which is very bad for some characters, but the whole package is not enough to make even many of the most ardent conservatives want to ban this stage. You are really just doing yourself a favor by placing this stage as a counterpick and moving on.

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Highlights: This level features an uneven main stage and a tilting platform in the middle. The blast zones are spaced in an ordinary way. A platform can appear at random on either side of the stage, and Shy Guys can absorb projectiles, albeit rarely.
Possible status: Starter
Reasoning: A few things here move, and the support ghost rarely saves people. The ground is a bit uneven, and a lot of players harbor a small dislike for this stage. It's all very minor; the liberal will be extremely upset if you don't place this stage as a starter, and the conservative will probably defend this stage as a starter too since it's easily among the least offensive stages in the game. You are only doing yourself a favor by making this stage a starter at your tournament.

Halberd
Highlights: This is a stage of multiple sequences. The first portion lasts for a very small amount of time but offers walk-offs. Each section of the stage is mainly a flat stage with a flat platform above. The side blast zones are average in the aerial sequence but close in the grounded one, and the top blast zone is smaller than average. The moving section of the stage allows players to go through the main stage. The other main part of the stage offers hazards that are easily avoided with timed warnings.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: The walk-offs at the start are completely trivial, and essentially all players agree about that. What does make many conservatives want this stage as a counterpick is the fact that it has hazards, a pass through floor for many portions of the level, and generally close blast zones. The stage is generally a bit stronger in its character bias than the stages the conservative will be comfortable with as starters regardless. The liberal will find all of these factors far too minor to be a concern, and will really like this stage as a starter. You are generally very safe making your own decisions on this stage, but be warned that you are going to receive trouble if you try to make this stage a starter and not also make Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1 starters as well. For that matter, this stage is an easy stage to tack onto the starter list if you allow both of those and want an odd number of stages for stage striking; that line of reasoning will resonate with pretty much all players.

Lylat Cruise
Highlights: This is a stage with average blast zones and a normal layout with three small platforms. The stage tilts which causes both an even main stage as well as tricky to grab ledges.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: A large number of players simply hate this stage because they personally have a lot of trouble recovering to the ledge due to the tilting. This author is not convinced at all that this stage has particularly significant character bias, but it is definitely the case that some characters are a bit trickier to recover with here than others. Unless you are catering to the most conservative of elements, this stage should probably be a starter; you are actually likely to upset some liberals greatly by making this stage a counterpick. Actually, be ready to hear complaining regardless of what you decide; this stage is really polarizing. Just don't make it a banned stage; if you do that, EVERYONE will be complaining.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Highlights: This stage features normal blast zones with a main stage with two platforms on either side in a basic layout, and the ledges are easy to grab. This stage offers four timed transformations that appear in a random sequence, each with a various layout and effect. The first decreases gravity for some time. The second offers sections of the stage that move the player. The third decreases traction and increases the tripping rate. The final offers a pseudo-wall.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage doesn't have the most obvious of character biases, but the transformations are far more disruptive than what most other stages do. Some conservatives really hate this stage and adamantly want it banned, but most of them are fine with this stage being a counterpick. The disruptive-ness of the transformations make even most liberals cool to the idea of this stage as a starter, but they are likely to be pretty strong of their opinion that this stage should be a counterpick. It's really the safest option to make this stage a counterpick, but if you want to appeal to the most conservative players, it's acceptable to ban this stage.

Spear Pillar
Highlights: This is a stage with normal blast zones as well as normal edges on the top and trickier ones on the bottom. There are two main levels to the stage with the top one having two platforms and the bottom one having a ceiling. On top of all this, the stage offers a variety of gameplay changing features in gravity change, speed change, hazards, and a loop that is easy for fast characters to transverse.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: It has a huge loop and huge hazards. Almost everyone strongly agrees that this stage should be banned, and the few elements that don't think this stage is nearly as unacceptable as everyone else says are not going to be mad when you ban it. Allowing this stage is likely to cause disaster even if people actually show up because of how radical the stage is; you would really be foolish to allow it.

Port Town Aero Dive
Highlights: This is a moving stage where the normal layout is simply a pass-through platform without ledges. The various stops on the stage all offer various layouts, and most have a high-risk hazard that gives warning before striking, however small.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Conservatives are likely to be very upset if you allow this stage; the hazards are pretty random and way too powerful for them, and they don't like the lack of grabbable ledges at almost all points on this course (trivia: one random stopping place has some grabbable ledges). Even many liberals are likely to consider the hazards too much, but for liberals this stage is likely to be viewed as acceptable. The safest choice is definitely to ban it, but if you aim to appease a more liberal crowd, making it a counterpick is passable.

Castle Siege
Highlights: This is a stage with three main forms and transitions forms. The forms have varied blast zone distances that are never too extreme, but the ledges on the first and third forms are somewhat difficult to grab. The second form and transition form offer walk-offs.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: The very frequent walk-offs are the only factor to really worry about here, but they are enough to make most conservatives and even some more liberal players scoff at the idea of this stage as a starter. If you decide to go for a high number of starters, however, most players will find this one of the best choices to add for stage striking if you need another to reach an odd number of stages; that's really the only reason you should make this stage anything but a counterpick. Do note that temporary walk-offs are minor enough that even the most conservative players are likely to find you ridiculous if you ponder banning this stage.

WarioWare
Highlights: This is a stage with a basic layout, somewhat smaller blast zones, and easy to grab ledges. The stage offers microgames that present walk-offs as well as many hazards. The stage offers a reward system that can randomly alter the match by giving the winners of the microgames invincibility, giant size, or small healing.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage gives random invincibility. Virtually all players agree that it's ridiculously excessive, and your tournament will be treated as a literal joke tournament if you don't ban this stage.

Distant Planet
Hightlights: This stage features a basic layout in the center with easy to grab ledges and normal blast zones. A OHKO hazard will appear a distance from the main section of the stage. There is a permanent walk-off, but it becomes blocked for large amounts of time by rain. Weak items spawn, allowing for all characters to deal with long distance fights between the unconnected main point of the stage and the walk-off section. The platforms sink while a character is on them.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: A lot of liberal players find it very hard to see any reason this stage should not be a counterpick and will not like you banning it. There are a substantial number of conservatives who look at the fact that a permanent walk-off exists and don't consider anything else before deciding it should be banned, and conservatives also find the rain very obnoxious. A few conservatives are also hung up on the fact that this course technically has an instant kill hazard, but that side of things can be safely ignored. The main feature of this stage, however, is that almost no one picks it, and most people tend to forget about it. For that reason, you are safe making your own judgments either way on this stage.

Smashville
Highlights: The main stage has only one horizontally moving platform and features typical blast zones and easy to grab ledges. A much loved destructible balloon occasionally passes overhead.
Possible status: Starter
Reasoning: This stage is completely non-interactive save for the trivial elements of a balloon and a completely predictable moving platform, and the character biases are small throughout. It's a really obvious good starter, and you are going to anger potential participants if you classify it as anything else. This may be the most well-liked stage in the game.

New Pork City
Highlights: This is a stage offering no real main point, and essentially consists of a multitude of platforms spread over a huge area. The blast zones are a large distance away from many portions of the stage and are structured to allow for a loop. A moving OHKO hazard appears at times, and a portion of this stage's floor can be destroyed.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage is ridiculously huge with a loop, and it for kicks has a fairly trivial instant kill hazard. Your tournament will be treated like a literal joke tournament if you allow this stage, and even if anyone actually shows up, the gameplay here will in fact prove to be completely degenerate.

Summit
Highlights: The stage offers normal blast zones; however, the stage also offers a permanent loop with its platform layout. The stage has lower traction with a corresponding high tripping rate as well as a sequence with low gravity. The final sequence involves both a OHKO hazard and water, and the transition back to the first form features brief high gravity.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This author swears that most people are fairly biased when it comes to this stage, but regardless most players should want this stage banned. The fact that there's an instant kill hazard that is not completely trivial is too much for most players, a lot of players find the slippery nature of this course very obnoxious, a lot of players find the low gravity for such an extended period completely unacceptable, this stage has a small loop, and the lack of grabbable ledges is yet another factor that works against this stage as that's really bad for certain characters. It would not be completely impossible to conduct a tournament with this stage allowed, but it really is the best choice in almost any context to ban it.

Skyworld
Highlights: The stage offers a normal platform layout with grabbable layouts and normal blast zones. However, all platforms, including the main stage, can be destroyed which can remove the grabbable ledges while revealing terrain that can be stood on but does not stop characters from being hit through it. The default platforms are solid and offer a ceiling to the stage that will cause spikes if the correct parts are destroyed.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage has some pretty crazy character biases, and the massive amounts of teching that are possible here are simply too much for pretty much all conservatives and a large number of more moderate or even liberal players. The fact that it's possible to literally destroy the grabbable ledges is not going to earn this stage many fans among tether recovery character mains, and most players seem to agree that being spiked through the ground is dumb. In the most liberal of crowds, you can get away with this stage as a counterpick, but in general it's much safer to ban this stage.

75m
Highlights: The stage offers a main platform of sorts at the top and a multitude of awkwardly placed platforms beneath. The stage's blast zones are close at some points, but large at other points largely due to the overall very large size. There are walk-offs and very strong hazards present, and the stage also allows for a player to make multiple makeshift loops.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: Before we consider anything else, we have to note that most players have an irrational bias against "retro" stages such as this. However, when we actually do look at the stage, we see that it has walk-offs at several points, an extremely campy series of very small platforms, and some pretty strong hazards. Most players see this stage as a common sense ban, and even those who think the majority are too hasty in condemning it are probably just arguing that you should think harder before making the correct decision to ban this stage. Just ban it and move on.

Mario Bros.
Highlights: This stage offers blast zones that are close to nearly any point of the stage despite the stage being overall large. There is no main part of the stage with the arguable exception of the bottom. The layout offers a loop as well as many ceilings. The hazards begin to increase in speed and frequency as the match continues, and they are quite powerful.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: When you factor in intrusiveness, power, and frequency, this stage's hazards may be the most extreme of any stage hazards. This stage also has a loop and tons of walk-offs, and this stage is a massive tech fest. Even that small element that literally wants to allow everything considered banning this stage; it's that bad. Virtually everyone agrees that this stage should be banned, and you are only asking for low attendance and degenerate gameplay if you decide on anything else.

Flat Zone 2
Highlights: This stage offers very small blast zones as well as different transformations. All transformations offer walk-offs. There are hazards that are present that can be easily avoided; however, they can also be easily exploited. The hazards vary from negligible to some of the more powerful hazards in the game.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This stage's walk-offs and hazards are way too much for conservatives, and most liberals are swayed away from what would be some degree of defense for this stage by the aforementioned irrational bias against "retro" stages. Even the liberals you convince to actually seriously consider this stage (almost no conservatives will even be willing to consider the possibility of allowing this stage) are likely to ultimately conclude that it's just too much; you are mostly asking for trouble if you don't make this stage a banned stage.

PictoChat
Highlights: The stage is normally in its basic layout for 50% of the match. The stage is a simple flat stage with normal side blast zones, a slightly high top blast zone, and easy to grab ledges that are slightly lower than the rest of the stage. The transformations all appear and disappear in a set time and must cycle through themselves before repeating. The stage alternates between 13.33 seconds of blankness and 13.33 seconds of a drawing. The majority of the drawings are tame, being various platform layouts. However, there are a select few hazards that appear in a low number of transformations that can be disruptive to gameplay.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: The fact that all three possibilities are listed should give you some hint about how differing opinions are on this stage. Liberals love this stage, praise its fairness, and strongly condemn complaints about the occasional hazards or randomness. Conservatives find the hazards and random drawings all around very disruptive and obnoxious. The usual solution with this stage is to compromise and place it as a counterpick. If you are in a very conservative crowd you can get away with banning this stage, and if you otherwise would have an even number of starters you can maybe get away with a liberal desire to make this stage a starter with stage striking. This stage is seldom picked regardless so it is probably the simplest and safest option to make it a counterpick.

Hanenbow
Highlights: The stage offers no main portion and instead has multiple platforms that vary in angle scattered about the stage. Many platform transitions require commitment from many characters, allowing more agile characters to use the stage as a makeshift loop. There are only three ledges to grab. Some platforms are far from the blast zones, making them seem huge. However, other platforms are close enough that the blast zones seem too close.
Possible status: Banned (Possibly Counterpick/Banned in Doubles)
Reasoning: There used to be people who would very vocally defend this stage as a counterpick. They aren't really doing that anymore, and the reason is that the constantly moving ground in this huge stage is divided into a series of pretty small platforms that lead to extremely slow and campy gameplay. The character biases are really huge here, and the stage is all around quite possibly the single most obnoxious stage to play on. It is maybe possible in some circles to get away with this stage as a counterpick, but in general it is simply the common sense choice to ban this stage.

Shadow Moses Island
Highlights: The stage has slightly larger than average blast zones; however, the side blast zones are blocked off. The stage will only offer vertical KOs the majority of the match, as time commitment is needed to remove the walls that respawn quickly. The walls, a problem themselves, only replace themselves with another problem in walk-offs. There are two levels to this stage as well.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This is another stage that used to have support for being a counterpick but doesn't really anymore. If ground doesn't lead to a wall on this stage, it leads to a walk-off; that alone is too much for most players. That aside, this stage has very strong character biases since careful play here can make you nearly immune to death in any direction but up. It's really a common sense decision these days to ban this stage.

Green Hill Zone
Highlights: The stage has some typically spaced blast zones, but the side blast zones lead to a walk-off. The stage itself is one large curving level that can become broken in the center if the ground takes enough damage, creating a pitfall. There is also a hazard on this stage that is unique in that it is only active when being controlled (through being attacked) by one character at a time.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage has permanent walk-offs that are too much for many players, but the odd shape makes it more acceptable than a stage like Mario Circuit to some conservatives. The checkpoint is really obnoxious and is a shockingly large element of the gameplay here as well (there is some argument that the game completely centralizes around it), and the ground breaking, while mostly minor, is going to annoy a few players. The generally safer option with this stage is to ban it, but it's possible with a more liberal philosophy to get away with allowing it.

Temple
Highlights: The stage is very large, offering multiple ways for characters to create loops. The blast zones are fairly large, although some portions of the stage are very close to them. The stage also offers sections with ceilings and walls and a small platform at the bottom that can be difficult to approach.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: It's huge, it has a loop, it has walls, and it's a massive tech fest in which no one ever dies. Extremely casual players love this stage, but if you are hoping to host a serious tournament, the only reasonable choice for this stage is banned.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) [sometimes called "Pipes"]
Highlights: The stage is very small with very close blast zones. The stage also offers a slanted walk-off. The stage further offers blocks than can be temporary deactivated by attacking but can otherwise serve as an odd ceiling.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: It really comes down to that walk-off on the right side. A lot of conservatives find that too big of a factor to allow this stage, but most liberals are not bothered by it. This stage also has a low ceiling and a close blast zone to the left that add some obvious character bias, and the blocks are generally not a player favorite though no one tends to consider them when arguing about whether to ban this stage. In the end, you are probably really safe making your own judgment either way; conservatives are likely to be okay with the reasoning "this stage is a good counterpick against Meta Knight" while liberals are probably going to be able to accept you finding the walk-off combined with the other factors that induce character bias to be enough to ban this stage.

Jungle Japes
Highlights: The stage offers very large blast zones as well as ledges that are close to moving water but easy to grab. The stage itself has an even platform layout, and the thin, solid floor lets several characters attack through it. There is also a hazard with a high chance of KOing that is close to the water.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: Only the most extreme of conservatives want to ban this stage, but they warrant a mention. This stage has huge blast zones which some players don't like, and the extreme conservatives who want to ban this stage find the rushing river with the fairly random and deadly hazard in Klaptrap to be just too much. However, unless you are catering to those extremely conservative players, you are going to find this stage is widely accepted as a counterpick stage, and liberals are likely to be very frustrated if you don't allow it.

Onett
Highlights: The stage offers average blast zones that can seem close due to portions of this stage being elevated as well as walk-offs and walls. These walls and walk-offs are interrupted by a 30% damage, set-knockback hazard that is very well telegraphed. The stage offers a unique platform layout.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: A lot of players REALLY hate this stage; keep that in mind throughout. This stage has walls and walk-offs on which the abuse is only limited by the presence of a hazard which does 30% even if it is completely non-lethal. Gameplay here can be a bit slow, and this stage has a fairly large number of stage specific tactics that earn it few fans. The safer option is definitely to ban it, but more liberal groups tend to be accepting of this stage even if they tend to be capable of accepting this stage being banned.

Corneria
Highlights: This stage is large; however, the blast zones are very small. The stage has two main sections, one offers a lower ceiling with the other offers a wall and closer side blast zone. The main hazard present is low-damage with no knockback, but there is a very powerful hazard beneath the stage that is mostly a non-factor. The ledges on this stage are easy to grab.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage has very close blast zones and a wall that is ripe for abuse along with the possibility of ledge stalling in the middle of the stage and a mostly trivial but present regardless hazard; that makes it a stage that the more conservative elements want to ban. However, this stage isn't too extreme all in all, and a lot of liberals as well as the random casual players are big fans of this stage. You are probably safe deciding either way; just be sure to be consistent with your other choices with this stage (if you are mostly liberal, allow it; if you are mostly conservative, ban it).

Rainbow Cruise
Highlights: The stage moves in a clockwise circle, going through both vertical and horizontal movement sequences. The stage offers many moving platforms that allow for even the least mobile of characters to keep up with the stage. Some portions of the stage are close to the blast zones, but they are generally fairly spaced.
Possible status: Counterpick
Reasoning: There have been minor elements that have wanted to see this stage as a starter and as banned, but for the most part this stage has nearly universal acceptance as a counterpick. It has some significant character biases but isn't too much for even the most conservative players, but even the most liberal players tend to find it along with the large amounts of movement enough to disqualify this stage as a starter.

Green Greens
Highlights: This is another small stage, with close blast zones. There are destructible walls on this stage, which also include hazards. The stage is fairly interactive, with spawning blocks, apples, and a wind effect from time to time.
Possible status: Counterpick/Banned
Reasoning: This stage is a stage that the more conservative elements really dislike. It has breakable but usually present walls, pretty dangerous hazards, and generally a lot of elements that are interactive and lead to stage specific strategies. This stage does, however, have a good deal of support among liberal groups who enjoy the diversity of gameplay on this stage and find every individual conservative complaint easy to dismiss. You can, for the most part, get away with following your own judgment here, but there's slightly more risk of angering conservatives than liberals with what you pick.

Big Blue
Highlights: This stage offers a random pattern that doesn't vary to the extreme; however, it is sometimes difficult to keep track of thanks to the various camera angles with where you are present. The stage offers fair blast zones, and there are many platforms with ledges. The stage has a bottom that can easily kill if the player fails to tech appropriately. The stage is mostly open, with platforms that rise and sink from time to time in addition to the cars traveling along the road.
Possible status: Banned
Reasoning: This is another stage this author would argue gets a really unfair reputation, but regardless almost all tournament level players really hate this stage and the fact that playing on this stage is pretty much a constant deployment of stage specific strategies. It may be possible to "get away with" this stage among the most liberal of players, but the safest and easiest option is to ban it.

Brinstar
Highlights: The stage has average blast zones as well as easy to grab ledges. The stage has a basic platform layout and a pass through bottom to the main stage. The stage also offers destructible terrain that alters the layout but does not disrupt gameplay. There is also a hazard that appears, albeit slowly and with a safe area.
Possible status: Counterpick
Reasoning: Despite having a hazard that would make you think most conservatives would dislike it, this stage is actually widely accepted as a counterpick. The hazard is generally pretty easy to avoid and not very deadly, and while there is character bias here, it is simultaneously extreme enough for liberals and not extreme enough for conservatives to prevent serious contests to this stage's status.

Pokemon Stadium 1
Highlights: The main part of the stage is flat with two simple platforms. The blast zones are typical; however, the ledges can prove to be difficult to grab at times. The transformations are all temporary and on a timer; however, some offer walls as well as a moving solid object that can have a significant impact on gameplay.
Possible status: Starter/Counterpick
Reasoning: The transforming and the presence of occasional walls (along with a silly and irrational hatred of the windmill) leads many conservatives to want this stage as a counterpick, but liberals love it as a starter, and it is generally not going to earn you too much controversy if you allow it as such. Overall the option that will appease most players is to make this stage a starter, but if you are aiming to a more conservative stage rule set, this stage fits in nicely as a counterpick.

Whew, that was a lot, and notice that you have to make decisions on almost every stage as a tournament organizer. I'm sorry; stage rules in this game are simply really controversial, and there isn't much of a "standard" to go by. Do be aware that it's common for tournaments to be conservative with a starter list and liberal with a counterpick list too and vice versa; there is quite a wide spectrum of philosophies here. Hopefully this document will help you, as a potential tournament organizer, to evaluate the stages and make good decisions based on both your own personal philosophy and the philosophy of the players you are trying to cater to. As per the balance of those two, while much time has been spent talking about the preferences of certain types of players, do remember that it is YOUR tournament, and it would be a mistake to use a rule set that you are not comfortable with. Despite the amount of complaining you may get, a relatively reasonable rule set will be enough to avoid deterring most real players liberal or conservative. Avoid being extreme, but follow your own preferences while keeping your players in mind.

Here are some examples of stage lists for the liberal and conservative mindset for you to start from and edit as you feel needed. Remember, you're aiming for a middle ground, and either list below would cause a significant amount of players to disagree with you. Also, the liberal list becoming more liberal and the conservative list becoming more conservative is possible but widely recommended against.

The conservative list

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville

Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
PictoChat
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium 1

Banned:
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1 and 1-2)
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Pirate Ship
Bridge of Eldin
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
WarioWare
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Green Greens
Big Blue
--
Note that due to the low number of starter stages, stage striking will likely be ignored and thus an odd number of starter stages is not needed.

The liberal list

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick:
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Distant Planet
Skyworld
PictoChat
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Brinstar

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1 and 1-2)
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
WarioWare
New Pork City
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Temple
Big Blue
--
Note that stage striking is assumed to be used, and thus an odd number of starter stages is needed.

Looking at the above two lists, you see that the conservative list has 4 starters and 9 counterpicks. The liberal list has 9 starters and 18 counterpicks. From this you can see that the viewpoint you take greatly alters you number of stages. Always aim for something in the middle. This allows for both parties to be happy, as well as avoiding having too shallow of a stage list or too confusing of a stage list.

As a last note, you may notice that many tournaments allow an extra stage or two for doubles play. In general, it is acceptable to be more liberal with doubles rules than with singles rules. Virtually any stage I listed as "Counterpick/Banned" would be perfectly acceptable to make a counterpick for doubles even if you decided to ban it in singles. Additionally, there used to be some degree of support for Hanenbow as a doubles only stage, and while it isn't really done at other tournaments, this author would like to push the position that it's a great choice to allow the Bridge of Eldin as a doubles only stage. In general, you are probably going to want to keep the doubles rules pretty close to the singles rules just to avoid confusion if nothing else, but if you want to, it's a perfectly acceptable and even popular idea to add an extra stage or two to the doubles counterpick list.

Whether to use stage striking or not is an important decision for every tournament organizer. In stage striking, an odd number of starter stages is employed after the initial character selection so players can alternate in a 1-2-2...-1 pattern removing stages from the starter list until only one remains. The main advantage to stage striking is added fairness; players will face generally fewer disadvantages in the first match of a set with stage striking. However, it also somewhat lengthens the tournament, especially with players who are not familiar with stage striking. Stage striking also adds an element of strategy to the initial stage selection which, depending on player philosophy, may be a good or a bad thing. Both decisions are fine, and as a tournament organizer you should pick whichever choice best suits your personal circumstances.
 

Xiivi

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Just wanting to say that I did help out with writing this and it is a great supplement to my TO topic. Enjoy!
 

KishPrime

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This is a great article.

However, let me be a stickler and argue that this doesn't really capture the spirit of the two sides. I've been writing for a couple years that the argument basically boils down to two sides. On one side you have the Originalists, who view Nintendo as the final authority over game content. They strive to include as much of the game as is competitively feasible. Items fail on the basis that it randomizes results, hence, not feasible.

On the other side are the Constructivists, who ultimately believe that the community should decide what they want in the game. On this side you will see any number of perspectives. Some hold to very strict rules, demanding zero randomness and "stage interference." Some are far more liberal. In the end though, the choose to define the game according to their own sets of predetermined opinions about how the game should be played.

The main point of disagreement will always be bans. At what point do you ban something in the game. Originalists have to have convincing proof that there is an unresolvable competitive flaw. Constructivists simply have to show that it does not fit their criteria for the best game. Hence, why the two sides will argue for hours and never understand each other. This is the real barrier you face when you are debating rulesets.

To be honest, the Back Room has always been dominated by Originalists. Recently though, it's started to turn quite a bit.

You have done an amazing amount of work on the article, though. Good job!
 

K 2

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Wow....so that's how you come up with awesome responses to my stage discussions!
 

Jam Stunna

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I think the assigning of "liberal" and "conservative" tags is also misleading. One of the reasons that Smash is my favorite fighting game is because the stage variety allows for different tactics. Whereas in most traditional 2-D fighters where all you have is a floor and two walls, Smash's use of uneven terrain, platforms and kill zones add a great deal of depth and strategy to the genre.

But I've always been of the opinion that so long as a stage does not promote and encourage stalling (like Hyrule Temple), it should be allowed. I've always considered that a "conservative" view, in the sense that a minimal amount of engineering should be done in a competitive game. In my view, the "liberal" stance is changing the game to suit the purpose of the community. If a game proves to be competitive only after banning half of it, well, it's not really competitive at all, is it?
 

Xiivi

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The terms liberal and conservative are fine as they were defined in the article. I've seen the terms tossed around plenty of time before. I also think the name is irrelevant when compared to the content behind each side of the debate.

This does not need to degenerate into a "you should call X side Y and A side B instead". That's not the point.

Don't focus on the terms and instead focus on the thoughts instead.

Also, I do agree with Kish about the constructivists and originalists being good alternate terms though.
 

Overswarm

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We use the terms "Originalist" and "Creationist" in the backroom; KishPrime thought 'em up.

edit: I should prolly read threads first
 

Xiivi

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edit: I should prolly read threads first
Doubt worry OS, I'll forgive you. :p

But I really have seen the terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' thrown around, SBR members included. I never really thought it would be as big of a deal to people as it is. :/

2) Go to tournament discussion and click around to view different stage lists. Some lists are more liberal, some are more conservative, it depends a little bit on the tournament host philosophy (for example, should walk off stages be banned? I would say no, some would say yes)
Is just one example of the terms being used by a SBR member.

But anyway, this thread was meant to at least be at least somewhat helpful, and not a naming debate. :(
 

Magik0722

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I noticed in the tournaments i have gone to, that Hosts that go by the conservitive stagelist typicly main higher tier characters while liberal hosts tend to main low tier characters, im not sure if anyone else has had this experience its just simply what i noticed.
 

Inui

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I noticed in the tournaments i have gone to, that Hosts that go by the conservitive stagelist typicly main higher tier characters while liberal hosts tend to main low tier characters, im not sure if anyone else has had this experience its just simply what i noticed.
People that play bad characters would obviously want extremely luck-based, skill-less, broken stages in order to turn matches into a coin-toss, since their character sucks too much to actually win.

Example: Xyro in TX has Port Town, an extremely luck-based and stupid stage, as a legal stage. He mains Samus, a terrible character whose only plus is living forever...which means she survives to double the damage that MK/Falco/etc. survive to against the cars.
 

Overswarm

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People that play bad characters would obviously want extremely luck-based, skill-less, broken stages in order to turn matches into a coin-toss, since their character sucks too much to actually win.

Example: Xyro in TX has Port Town, an extremely luck-based and stupid stage, as a legal stage. He mains Samus, a terrible character whose only plus is living forever...which means she survives to double the damage that MK/Falco/etc. survive to against the cars.
I main MK. Eat it.
 

KishPrime

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Certainly everyone has their biases, but it doesn't have to be that way. All of our crew played high or top, and we're very Originalist.

Inui and Magik, involving overly-luck based scenarios is not liberal, conservative, constructionist, or originalist, it is anti-competitive. Every one of these four groups agree that luck-based matches are bad. However, people differ over how much luck is allowable. There is a certain amount of luck that is tolerable, and sometimes even good, in competitive play. You have to realize that in a game where things occur as quickly as they do, many interactions between players are luck-based. I predict what you do, but I'm not always right. I may predict that you are going to do what you do 99% of the time, but you execute the 1%. There's a certain amount of luck in that alone.
 

Xiivi

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I main Snake. When JesiahTEG and I played each other in Winner's Finals and Grand Finals we agreed to just do all of the matches on neutrals. I always counterpick neutral stages. And yet I definitely side with the more liberal/originalist side. Whenever someone counterpicks some crazy stage like Port Town, I don't complain; I win. Because I actually know all of these stages well.

Broad generalizations are terrible.
 

Ruuku

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People that play bad characters would obviously want extremely luck-based, skill-less, broken stages in order to turn matches into a coin-toss, since their character sucks too much to actually win.
You are correct. Instead they should play skill-less and broken characters.
 

Xiivi

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You are correct. Instead they should play skill-less and broken characters.
That comment is just as biased.

Can we please try to not veer off topic or create a flame war?

Who would have thought presenting two sides to an argument could be so controversial? -_-;;
 

Ruuku

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That comment is just as biased.

Can we please try to not veer off topic or create a flame war?

Who would have thought presenting two sides to an argument could be so controversial? -_-;;
That was the point. It's not like stages present the only "broken" aspects of the game. There would not be counter-pick stages if the majority of the smash community didn't believe that it is a part of the game and that it adds a skill factor. Actually I believe that this balances the game a bit. Yet this shouldn't be a big issue to anyone, especially since the winner of the first match is allowed to switch characters in most tournaments. Still though I will counter-pick stages no matter which character I'm playing against/as.

By the way, I don't believe I've "flamed" anyone. People with no arguments do that.
 

Jam Stunna

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I'd like to have this point addressed.

But I've always been of the opinion that so long as a stage does not promote and encourage stalling (like Hyrule Temple), it should be allowed. I've always considered that a "conservative" view, in the sense that a minimal amount of engineering should be done in a competitive game. In my view, the "liberal" stance is changing the game to suit the purpose of the community. If a game proves to be competitive only after banning half of it, well, it's not really competitive at all, is it?
 

Xiivi

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I'd like to have this point addressed.
We already said that we don't want this thread to degenerate into term defining. You can spin the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' however you please, but they were already defined in the opening post and don't need to be discussed. The content is what is important, the terms are just that, terms.
 

Jam Stunna

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We already said that we don't want this thread to degenerate into term defining. You can spin the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' however you please, but they were already defined in the opening post and don't need to be discussed. The content is what is important, the terms are just that, terms.
That's not the point of the post. Fine, I'll re-write it without using the words "liberal" or "conservative".

But I've always been of the opinion that so long as a stage does not promote and encourage stalling (like Hyrule Temple), it should be allowed. I think that a minimal amount of engineering should be done in a competitive game. Otherwise, we're just changing the game to suit the purpose of the community. If a game proves to be competitive only after banning half of it, well it's not really competitive at all, is it?
 

ColinJF

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Jam, it sounds as though you are just describing the liberal philosophy in slightly different phrasing. And if your point is that if the liberal philosophy doesn't work, then we shouldn't play the game at all, then I would agree--but that's only because I support the liberal philosophy to begin with. The other camp here is very much willing to partake in "engineering" and this thread attempts to show the difference in the mindsets as practically applied to one particular topic (making a stage list).

As for the topic in general, it appears to be a solid resource for any TO who is not quite sure what he can get away with making legal/counterpick/banned, because it describes how a conservative/liberal would analyse each stage, and also provides an example of a complete list for use by real TOs.
 

Jam Stunna

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Well, I guess I'm not trying to say that one mindset is better than the other, but that the pro-ban mindset (whatever you want to call it) has to know that a line has to be drawn somewhere, and that line is closer rather than farther away.

Smash is a game that was designed with no eye towards character or stage balance, and there's only so much that can be done after the fact to remedy that before we have a game that really isn't worth playing because so many stages, tactics and possibly even characters have been banned.
 

Xyro77

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People that play bad characters would obviously want extremely luck-based, skill-less, broken stages in order to turn matches into a coin-toss, since their character sucks too much to actually win.

Example: Xyro in TX has Port Town, an extremely luck-based and stupid stage, as a legal stage. He mains Samus, a terrible character whose only plus is living forever...which means she survives to double the damage that MK/Falco/etc. survive to against the cars.
incorrect. it takes a complete moron to get hit by the cars. no johns.
also, incorrect on the "survives double damage".
 
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