Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Ghostbone]

And if we go for "only" 7 stages, what would be the best striking system ?

2-3-1 ?
1-3-2 ?
1-1-1-2-1 ?
1-2-1-1-1 ?
Other ?

In each case the first player has both the first and last strike, and each player has the same number of strikes.

2-3-1 is fine and simple.

 

[Physics]

Why is Pokemon Stadium 2 banned? It seems like the only bad transition is the one with the fans that messes up fall speed and makes vertical killing easier...
Halberd has 3 hazards and is legal but Pokemon Stadium 2 is banned because 1 transition that lasts 30 seconds is pretty jank but still..
I feel like Pokemon Stadium 2 should be legal. What do all of you think?

 

[Fuerzo]

Why is Pokemon Stadium 2 banned? It seems like the only bad transition is the one with the fans that messes up fall speed and makes vertical killing easier...
Halberd has 3 hazards and is legal but Pokemon Stadium 2 is banned because 1 transition that lasts 30 seconds is pretty jank but still..
I feel like Pokemon Stadium 2 should be legal. What do all of you think?

The wind is absolutely the worst part of the stage, radically changing physics and amplifying the ceiling issues on Halberd/Delfino by an order of magnitude. The conveyor belts on electric disproportionately harm slower characters and are too much of a distraction from fighting. Ice is annoying but not too horrific, Rock is fine.

 

[Physics]

The wind is absolutely the worst part of the stage, radically changing physics and amplifying the ceiling issues on Halberd/Delfino by an order of magnitude. The conveyor belts on electric disproportionately harm slower characters and are too much of a distraction from fighting. Ice is annoying but not too horrific, Rock is fine.

I 100% agree with what you said aboutt he wind.
But the way the conveyor belt harms slower characters, isn't it similar to how a low ceiling will harm lighter characters?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I 100% agree with what you said aboutt he wind.
But the way the conveyor belt harms slower characters, isn't it similar to how a low ceiling will harm lighter characters?

Hence why Halberd is so heavily debated. Low ceiling as well as the hazards.

I honestly think the conveyer belts would be fine if they went inward, or didn't knock you off the stage. This is not the case however, so I feel that they are too distracting. Especially for Little Mac. (Then again every stage is a bad stage for Little Mac)

 

[Wintropy]

Why is Pokemon Stadium 2 banned? It seems like the only bad transition is the one with the fans that messes up fall speed and makes vertical killing easier...
Halberd has 3 hazards and is legal but Pokemon Stadium 2 is banned because 1 transition that lasts 30 seconds is pretty jank but still..
I feel like Pokemon Stadium 2 should be legal. What do all of you think?

Flying and Electric transitions cause controversy.

The former, well, you answered that question yourself.

The latter, the conveyor belts can interrupt game flow and force the stage into a brief round of "survive hazards" rather than "fight opponent".

I'm an advocate of this stage as a counterpick, but I understand why it's in the grey as it stands. Especially in a timed match, being forced to wait out an intrusive hazard can be detrimental to competitive play.

 

[MajorMajora]

I can appreciate the wind complaint, but "X character has a disadvantage on Y stage" is a terrible reason to ban something. Like, that's one of the points of having all these stages.

 

[Fuerzo]

It's not just a matter of "character disadvantages"--the wind mechanic is a far more radical change to gameplay than almost anything on any other stage in the game. If your character is floaty or has bad anti-juggling options you're boned.

 

[MajorMajora]

It's not just a matter of "character disadvantages"--the wind mechanic is a far more radical change to gameplay than almost anything on any other stage in the game.

Oh, no I agree, I said I respect the wind complaint. It was the other ones, like the one about little mac suffering on electric, that I have quarrels with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh, no I agree, I said I respect the wind complaint. It was the other ones, like the one about little mac suffering on electric, that I have quarrels with.

It seems to me that Little Mac suffers on every stage. (Which makes the argument invalid considering there are few/no stages that would work for him.)

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh yay we're back to talking about a stage where Sheik can combo you to death from a grab at 10%. (and i'm sure other characters can do similar things)

PS2 is a decent stage ignoring wind, but wind is so broken in this game that the stage has to be banned.
That's just how it is, doesn't matter how interesting or fine you think the rest of the stage is, anything that dumb gets a stage banned.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I personally think a stage that outright changes the physics of the game should never be legal.

 

[dav3yb]

so what would most people think is a good number of stages? either for FLSS or starter/counter? seems like maybe 5 starters 5 counters would be good imo, but what do others think?

 

[ぱみゅ]

A good number is "whatever number of fair stages there are".

 

[Routa]

so what would most people think is a good number of stages? either for FLSS or starter/counter? seems like maybe 5 starters 5 counters would be good imo, but what do others think?

Best amount of stages on paper? I guess 7 or 9 would be a good amount of stages. Yeah 7 makes FLSS a bit harder, but it is still manageable (2-3-1). In Starter/Counterpick format 5 starters and 2-4 counterpick stages seem to be a good idea. I think over 9 stages would make the stage list a bit too big just like having under 7 stages is a bit too small of a stagelist. If you ask me each stage should be unique in their own way. After all what we have here is plathform fighting game.

 

[dav3yb]

A good number is "whatever number of fair stages there are".

so if we had 50 fair stages, how would it be decided which one is played on.

 

[Jpot]

My personal vote goes to 2-3-1 FLSS from Battlefield, Dreamland, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Town and City, Smashville, and Final Destination for the first set. I think two bans allows the most balance, but it's possible to run out of stages in a five game set, so perhaps the winner could get two per-game strikes rather than full-set bans.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

so if we had 50 fair stages, how would it be decided which one is played on.

Decide the pool random

 

[ぱみゅ]

so if we had 50 fair stages, how would it be decided which one is played on.

We'd need a system that helps us pick a stage in an easy, middle-grounded, and preferably fast way. After all, if 50 stages are perfectly fair, why ban any of them?

 

[Fuerzo]

We'd need a system that helps us pick a stage in an easy, middle-grounded, and preferably fast way. After all, if 50 stages are perfectly fair, why ban any of them?

We'd probably be able to raise our standards for what is allowed to be legal, as has happened with the PM stagelist.

 

[Routa]

I think two bans allows the most balance, but it's possible to run out of stages in a five game set, so perhaps the winner could get two per-game strikes rather than full-set bans.

Not a bad idea at all. Now the question is... Who is willing to test drive that kind of system?

We'd probably be able to raise our standards for what is allowed to be legal, as has happened with the PM stagelist.

I have to praise 3DS community's stage list. They have agreed with 9 legal stages. So why am I praising them? 3 out of these 9 stages have hazards (Brinstar, RBF and UPL). Well thous are legal, but most of the 3DS tournaments prefer 7 stage system (no RBF or UPL). If you ask me we should toss out this idea of hazards being the cancers of the game. People whine about Halberd 'cause it has hazards. Is it a good reason to whine? Well it is like whining about Smashville's moving plathform. It is what makes the stage unique. Once again I must remind that this game is a plathform fighter game. We need stages that test players plathforming skills without being cancerous.

And sorry for my horrible english, but I hope you got what I meant.

 

[Ajimi]

the winner could get two per-game strikes rather than full-set bans.

I always thought that was already the case ? It seems more logical to me.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Not a bad idea at all. Now the question is... Who is willing to test drive that kind of system?



I have to praise 3DS community's stage list. They have agreed with 9 legal stages. So why am I praising them? 3 out of these 9 stages have hazards (Brinstar, RBF and UPL). Well thous are legal, but most of the 3DS tournaments prefer 7 stage system (no RBF or UPL). If you ask me we should toss out this idea of hazards being the cancers of the game. People whine about Halberd 'cause it has hazards. Is it a good reason to whine? Well it is like whining about Smashville's moving plathform. It is what makes the stage unique. Once again I must remind that this game is a plathform fighter game. We need stages that test players plathforming skills without being cancerous.

And sorry for my horrible english, but I hope you got what I meant.

Personally, I don't want to fight against the stage, I want to fight against the other player.

 

[ぱみゅ]

We'd probably be able to raise our standards for what is allowed to be legal, as has happened with the PM stagelist.

I'd be willing to accept "raising the standard" if it actually raises the overall balance, variety and uniqueness among stages instead of just catering to the flat/static archetype.

 

[MajorMajora]

I'd be willing to accept "raising the standard" if it actually raises the overall balance, variety and uniqueness among stages instead of just catering to the flat/static archetype.

As much as I am in favor of a larger stagelist, the reason for the whole raising the standard thing is because stage lists that are too large can, in theory, lead to logistical issues. Now, I personally think that's overhyped and that stage striking will be fine if people take the effort to learn the stages, but apparently there are people who think that we have no time for stage striking when we consistently allow for custom tags in games. And there are people who think it's too much work, because god forbid we put in effort towards succeeding in a competitive activity.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Maybe our current system is just not good for larger stagelists. Maybe striking out 9+ stages with our current 1-2-1 method is not effective... But then again, we barely can barely get people to accept stages to even think on renovate the system.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As much as I am in favor of a larger stagelist, the reason for the whole raising the standard thing is because stage lists that are too large can, in theory, lead to logistical issues. Now, I personally think that's overhyped and that stage striking will be fine if people take the effort to learn the stages, but apparently there are people who think that we have no time for stage striking when we consistently allow for custom tags in games. And there are people who think it's too much work, because god forbid we put in effort towards succeeding in a competitive activity.

I mean, I can see the "takes too long" argument having merit if there are literally 50 stages to pick from. That's...a bit much. Otherwise I agree with kyokoro that there's a difference between "balanced stage" and "flat + plat stage", but I'm not convinced I'm in the majority.

 

[Pazx]

My personal vote goes to 2-3-1 FLSS from Battlefield, Dreamland, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Town and City, Smashville, and Final Destination for the first set. I think two bans allows the most balance, but it's possible to run out of stages in a five game set, so perhaps the winner could get two per-game strikes rather than full-set bans.

With only 7 stages I encourage 1 ban only in BO5 at the very least. BO3 could do 1 or 2 bans but I think 1 would be better. Bans only last for 1 game, by the way, not the entire set.

 

[Ajimi]

Only 1 ban with both BF and DL annoys me. I'm okay that the two stages are different enough to not be in the same spot in the stagelist (like Omegas or Miiverse), but really not by much. Maybe some characters would prefer one over the other, but I don't see a character both loving one and hating the other at the same time. If your opponent loves the global layout and you don't, but you have only 1 ban, you're screwed.

(And why should BO3 and BO5 have a different number of bans ?)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dream Land is in a really awkward position where it's clearly an inoffensive stage (anyone who seriously complains about Whispy Woods is, IMO, a stick in the mud) but, small differences aside, it's honestly not too different from Battlefield.

An anecdote: This past weekend I was at a smallish local (36 entrants) where the starter list was BF/FD/SV/T&C/DL. Every single match I had, my opponent struck one of Battlefield or Dream Land, but never both. When I struck last, I picked the other; when I struck first, I eliminated FD/SV and from there it was basically a tossup.

Let's not kid ourselves: Some characters benefit from Battlefield's arrangement more than others. Some of these characters could even use the help from having multiple such stages in a list, such as Robin. But others don't need it, like Rosalina or ZSS. (I'm making a bit of an assumption that ZSS likes Battlefield, but given her juggle game it makes intuitive sense at least.) And every time I took advantage of the fact that the two are mostly (not entirely, but mostly) interchangeable, I felt just a little bit bad that I was abusing this fact. Not enough to stop me from doing it, but just a little.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I have to praise 3DS community's stage list. They have agreed with 9 legal stages. So why am I praising them? 3 out of these 9 stages have hazards (Brinstar, RBF and UPL). Well thous are legal, but most of the 3DS tournaments prefer 7 stage system (no RBF or UPL). If you ask me we should toss out this idea of hazards being the cancers of the game. People whine about Halberd 'cause it has hazards. Is it a good reason to whine? Well it is like whining about Smashville's moving plathform. It is what makes the stage unique. Once again I must remind that this game is a plathform fighter game. We need stages that test players plathforming skills without being cancerous.

And sorry for my horrible english, but I hope you got what I meant.

Keep in mind though that the only stages that are usualy considered to be fair are Battlefield, Final Destination, Dream Land 64, and Yoshi's Island.

Also, your English is fine. :3

 

[MajorMajora]

Dream Land is in a really awkward position where it's clearly an inoffensive stage (anyone who seriously complains about Whispy Woods is, IMO, a stick in the mud) but, small differences aside, it's honestly not too different from Battlefield.

An anecdote: This past weekend I was at a smallish local (36 entrants) where the starter list was BF/FD/SV/T&C/DL. Every single match I had, my opponent struck one of Battlefield or Dream Land, but never both. When I struck last, I picked the other; when I struck first, I eliminated FD/SV and from there it was basically a tossup.

Let's not kid ourselves: Some characters benefit from Battlefield's arrangement more than others. Some of these characters could even use the help from having multiple such stages in a list, such as Robin. But others don't need it, like Rosalina or ZSS. (I'm making a bit of an assumption that ZSS likes Battlefield, but given her juggle game it makes intuitive sense at least.) And every time I took advantage of the fact that the two are mostly (not entirely, but mostly) interchangeable, I felt just a little bit bad that I was abusing this fact. Not enough to stop me from doing it, but just a little.

This really wouldn't be a problem if the stage list wasn't so small.

 

[Infinite901]

Keep in mind though that the only stages that are usualy considered to be fair are Battlefield, Final Destination, Dream Land 64, and Yoshi's Island.

Also, your English is fine. :3

I haven't seen a whole lot of detractors to Prism Tower... in fact, a lot of people I know like it so much they wish it was on Wii U.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I haven't seen a whole lot of detractors to Prism Tower... in fact, a lot of people I know like it so much they wish it was on Wii U.

I was thinking about including it in my list, but I didn't really see many people talking about it. (I can't find a 3Ds stage legality thread.)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This really wouldn't be a problem if the stage list wasn't so small.

My point (which I forgot to explicitly state) is that while Dream Land is a shoo-in for legality, having both it and Battlefield on the same starter list is probably not a good idea. (Assuming an S/CP distinction in the first place, since that's basically the norm as of now.)

 

[Routa]

I was thinking about including it in my list, but I didn't really see many people talking about it. (I can't find a 3Ds stage legality thread.)

I copied the list some time ago and the stagelist goes like this:

Starters:
BF
FD/Omegas
Prism Tower
Yoshi's Island
DL64

Counterpicks:
Arena Ferox
Brinstar*
RBF*
UPL*

* rarely used even when they are legal

 

[teluoborg]

@this post and the whole discussion that stems from it

A good number is "whatever number of fair stages there are".

I'm sorry but that's bull. If you were right then all stage lists would have both BF and Miiverse available. Yet that is never the case.

Because despite their sensible differences (Miiverse platforms being lower and closer to each other and the understage layout being completely symmetrical) they both fill the same strategical role and both give the same strenghts to the same characters.

So if it's true with BF and Miiverse why can't it be true with other stages archetypes. Following this logic a good stagelist would not be one that has all the fair/legal stages, but a chosen set of legal stages that promotes strategical diversity.

Starting from that all there is to do is classify the existing stages under archetypes. Like FD, Omegas and Duck Hunt all fit under the same archetype of a large terrain where platforms don't really matter. Or Delfino, Skyloft and Wuhu all fit the traveling stage with a succession of varying platform layouts and various sceneries.

 

[Xeze]

I haven't seen a whole lot of detractors to Prism Tower... in fact, a lot of people I know like it so much they wish it was on Wii U.

True. I'd swap Delfino or Halberd with Prism Tower in a heartbeat.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

True. I'd swap Delfino or Halberd with Prism Tower in a heartbeat.

A thought: Prism Tower's platform shrinks at a few points. How does this interact with Villager's tree? Or the hydrant?

 

[MajorMajora]

You know, why don't we treat Miiverse and Dreamland like Omega stages, just for BF? That way they're there for their tiny strategic differences, but they don't take up a spot.