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Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

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MrGame&Rock

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Skyloft is my favorite of the three, but only because of the Gerudo Valley song and size. In reality I like both roughly the same.

And I really like KJ64. It's the only good bigish stage we have, and it has a neat platform layout and high ceiling that I feel adds something to the stagelist. Even as a Ganon main I have to respect it.
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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Idk if you guys have dedicated weeklies that you organize or go to, but have we thought about trying a few experimental things at a time?
Like for three weeks, alternate between wuhu, skyloft and delfino as THE transforming stage in the set.
Or for that matter, even have multiple stage lists that alternate from week to week so we're not just going to bf and smashville all the time.
 

RIP|Merrick

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For our weeklies I've been pushing to at least try having Wuhu as a replacement, even momentarily, over Delfino Plaza to very negative response so I dunno...maybe I'll give that a try for my online tournament series since people seem more lenient toward the rules I do for that.
 

teluoborg

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I'm still not sure if Wuhu is better than Skyloft or not but I'm confident that both stages are better than Delfino. @ teluoborg teluoborg does your "legitimate reason" for banning Wuhu also extend to banning Delfino?

Thoughts edited in later: DSR isn't necessary, Kongo is a pretty good stage.
Delfino has blastzone changes, Skyloft and Wuhu have hitboxes. Pick your poison. And I just came back from a tournament that had KJ64 legal, the only time it was picked it went to time. One match isn't a big enough sample to make a definitive judgment, but it sure looks like characters with high air speed are uncatchable on this stage.
I agree that DSR isn't needed since mutliple bans have started being used.
… is that the reason why it's banned? Because that's not a reason why we ban things. Transforming stages are neither obstructive nor intrusive unless their transformations are, which almost all of Wuhu's are not. Delfino and Halberd are both legal, too.
Then why isn't Miiverse legal ? Checkmate. PS : stop saying "we" when stating your personal opinion, there are not multiple people inside your head (at least I hope not).
 

ParanoidDrone

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Delfino has blastzone changes, Skyloft and Wuhu have hitboxes. Pick your poison. And I just came back from a tournament that had KJ64 legal, the only time it was picked it went to time. One match isn't a big enough sample to make a definitive judgment, but it sure looks like characters with high air speed are uncatchable on this stage.
I agree that DSR isn't needed since mutliple bans have started being used.

Then why isn't Miiverse legal ? Checkmate. PS : stop saying "we" when stating your personal opinion, there are not multiple people inside your head (at least I hope not).
...who bans Miiverse? I'd expect it to get the Omega treatment where you can substitute it for Battlefield at the player's discretion.
 

Krysco

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Since the transforming stages are being discussed again and I enjoy labbing, I decided to look back at ParanoidDrone's threads on all 3 of them and have a 6 minute match on each stage.

For Skyloft it stopped at 10 different spots ending on the third spot. Wuhu also made 10 stops, ending on the third traveling platform and Delfino only made 8 stops, ending on the beginning traveling platform.

Skyloft has 11 stopping points while Wuhu and Delfino only have 9 and they each have 4 different traveling platforms although the ones for Skyloft and Wuhu are consistently the same depending on what 'trip' the stage is on (for example, trips 1 and 5 have the same platform, same applies to trips 2 and 6, 3 and 7, 4 and 8, 5 and 10).

All 3 stages have in common that they will stop at 4 stopping points before restarting the tour and they each have set spots that will be first, second, third and fourth stops before the stage cycles through them again.

Now for the big meat of this post, each individual stop for all 3 stages and their potential 'banning problems' they could cause. I'll have a spoiler tag at the end with a picture of each spot, borrowing the ones ParanoidDrone used unless he does not wish for me to use them, in which case I shall edit in my own. I'll also mention now that any time I say a portion could promote stalling, I mean strictly through its platform layout.

Starting with Skyloft there's:

  • The Knight Academy which could promote stalling and as my video shows, you can end up inside the building.
  • The Light Tower which has no noticeable problems
  • The Windmills which could promote stalling
  • The Bridge which has temporary walkoffs
  • The Plaza which has a single temporary walkoff on the left
  • The Residential District which has a temporary walkoff on the right and seems to be the most common place for players to clip through the stage and die as a result since there is a solid wall that I don't believe can be wall jumped off of and there's no grabbable ledges once the traveling platform goes away. It could also promote minor stalling.
  • The Bazaar which has temporary walkoffs
  • The Isle of the Goddess which has temporary walkoffs
  • The Statue of the Goddess which is fine aside from being able to go inside the Statue
  • The Small Island which could promote circle camping
  • And the Waterfall Island which could promote stalling
Wuhu Island has:
  • The Arena which is fine
  • The Bridge which has temporary walkoffs and could promote stalling
  • The Jet Ski Race which has water, and could promote stalling
  • The Rocks which have the same as the Jet Ski Race
  • The Boat which has the potential to promote stalling and very deadly water since the left water drags you off the screen while the right drags you into the boat, once said boat starts moving. It should be noted that thankfully, the infamous ohko glitch of this portion of the stage appears to have been patched out.
  • The Beach which has temporary walkoffs
  • The Volcano which could promote stalling
  • The Fountain which has temporary walkoffs and could promote stalling
  • And the Cliff which has a single temporary walkoff on the left and the balloon that harms players upon contact on the right.
Delfino has:
  • Bianco Square which has water
  • The East Island which has water
  • The Docks which have temporary walkoffs and a small amount of water
  • The pillars which could promote stalling and have water
  • The West Island which has water
  • The Umbrellas which have temporary walkoffs and could promote stalling
  • The Rooftops which have a single temporary walkoff on the left, no grabbable ledge on the right and it could promote stalling
  • Noki Bay which has temporary walkoffs
  • And the Shine Gate which could promote stalling
With all of that in mind, Skyloft has the pattern of:
  • First stop being Knight Academy, Light Tower or Windmills. One thing to note is that the Windmills seem to appear the rarest.
  • Second stop being Bridge, Plaza or Residential District
  • Third stop being Bazaar, Isle of the Goddess or Statue of the Goddess
  • Fourth stop being the Small Island or the Waterfall Island
  • Quoting ParanoidDrone "there does not seem to be a pattern over successive tours beyond simply ensuring each transformation gets to appear"

Wuhu has the pattern of:

  • First stop being Arena or Bridge. On repeated visits, the stage alternates between the two so for example if the first visit was the Arena then the fifth will be the Bridge (fifth since it has to make 4 stops before going back to the first, not Arena 4 times then Bridge)
  • Second stop being Rocks only if the Arena was visited, Boat only if Bridge was visited or Jet Ski Race which can appear regardless of first visit. Quoting ParanoidDrone "over 4 successive tours the stage is guaranteed to visit the Jet Ski Race twice and the Rocks and Boat once each." Note that only 2 and barely 3/4 of successive tours can be made in a 6 minute match.
  • Third stop being Beach or Volcano. The stage can either alternate or pick one twice then the other twice (although a 6 minute match does not allow for 4 visits to this spot)
  • Fourth stop being Fountain or Cliff. Same rules that applied to the third stop apply here.
Delfino has the pattern of:
  • First stop being Bianco Square or East Island
  • Second stop being Docks, Pillars or West Island
  • Third stop being Umbrellas or Rooftops
  • Fourth stop being Noki Bay or Shine Gate. It should be noted that after this visit, the stage lingers on the traveling platform for about as long as the other visits.
With all of this in mind, Skyloft has 9 potentially problematic stopping points, 5 with temporary walkoffs and 5 which could promote stalling or circle camping, not counting the 5 with walkoffs.

Wuhu has 8 potentially problematic stopping points, 4 with temporary walkoffs and 6 which could promote stalling. Some have both issues.

Delfino has all 9 as problematic but that's only if you consider the very existence of water a problem. Without water being factored in, there's 4 with temporary walkoffs and 4 that could promote stalling.

With the maximum 10 visits for Skyloft and Wuhu and 8 for Delfino your best case scenario is 8 'bad' stops for Skyloft, 8 for Wuhu and 4 for Delfino (assuming water isn't a problem, otherwise 8) with worst case scenarios being 10, 9 and 6 for Delfino (or 8 if we include water).

All of the stages have in common that they lack a consistent layout, that they have temporary walkoffs and potential stalling points and that the traveling platforms can be passed through upwards. Skyloft has the most hazards and they aren't obvious, Wuhu has obvious hazards, big blastzones and the traveling platform leaves at nearly :4sonic: speeds and Delfino has it's infamous and well known low ceiling issues. The stops last for 15~ seconds on Skyloft and Wuhu while they last 18~ seconds on Delfino which along with the 18~ second wait between the 4th and 5th stops, would explain the fewer total stops the stage makes in 6 minutes.

My personal favourite of the 3 is Skyloft since it lacks the ceiling issues of Delfino and Wuhu is a bit too big for my liking and the platform leaves way too damn quick. That being said, I wouldn't have any of them banned.

TL;DR...uhhh the best I can do is say that I don't think any of the 3 should be banned outside meeting a sufficient number of stages if such a thing is required and that if we could only have 1 I'd want Skyloft. Everything else is data that I'm incapable of shortening. I also changed the colour to white since I know my usual purple is hard for some to read so you're welcome~

Knight Academy

Light Tower

Windmill

Bridge

Plaza

Residential District

Bazaar

Isle of the Goddess

Statue of the Goddess

Small Island

Waterfall Island

Arena

Bridge

Jet Ski Race

Rocks

Boat

Beach

Volcano

Fountain

Cliff

Bianco Square

East Island

Docks

Pillars

West Island

Umbrellas

Rooftop

Noki Bay

Shine Gate

I'd add pictures of the traveling platforms but this post is long enough as it is and I don't see a problem with any of them aside from maybe the third one on Skyloft but that's stretching imo.
 

ParanoidDrone

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TL;DR...uhhh the best I can do is say that I don't think any of the 3 should be banned outside meeting a sufficient number of stages if such a thing is required and that if we could only have 1 I'd want Skyloft. Everything else is data that I'm incapable of shortening. I also changed the colour to white since I know my usual purple is hard for some to read so you're welcome~
Worth remembering that Melee only had PS1 as a counterpick because 6 stages flat out doesn't work for striking. (Yay even numbers.) I prefer FLSS but I'd be willing to settle for 1 or 2 counterpick-only stages on the grounds that it makes the actual striking work out better mathematically.
 

Ghostbone

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Then why isn't Miiverse legal ? Checkmate. PS : stop saying "we" when stating your personal opinion, there are not multiple people inside your head (at least I hope not).
Miiverse is literally battlefield with a different underside. So no different than FD/omegas.

Every ruleset should treat it the same way it treats omegas, if someone counterpicks FD or Battlefield they can choose a specific omega or miiverse instead.
 

Pazx

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Delfino has blastzone changes, Skyloft and Wuhu have hitboxes. Pick your poison. And I just came back from a tournament that had KJ64 legal, the only time it was picked it went to time. One match isn't a big enough sample to make a definitive judgment, but it sure looks like characters with high air speed are uncatchable on this stage.
I agree that DSR isn't needed since mutliple bans have started being used.

Then why isn't Miiverse legal ? Checkmate. PS : stop saying "we" when stating your personal opinion, there are not multiple people inside your head (at least I hope not).
Wuhu's hitboxes are both minor/weak (aside from the boat I guess) and extremely obvious. I can understand people complaining about the cliffs on Skyloft because they're not as obvious or the hazards on Halberd but complaining about Wuhu's hazards seems kinda dumb to me. I don't think anyone who actually plays on the stage would have any sort of issue with them.

I regularly have or see matches go to time on various stages, I've had a timeout on Delfino in tournament. I don't think timeouts are necessarily a strike against Kongo. If circle/barrel camping turns out to be broken it should be banned, but I've yet to see it. Duck Hunt (which is my favourite legal stage by far) could also go for the same reason.

Worth remembering that Melee only had PS1 as a counterpick because 6 stages flat out doesn't work for striking. (Yay even numbers.) I prefer FLSS but I'd be willing to settle for 1 or 2 counterpick-only stages on the grounds that it makes the actual striking work out better mathematically.
I assume you think that 4n+1 stages is optimal for striking rather than 2n+1, if so, could you explain why striking 1-2-1 (5 stages) or 1-2-2-1 (9 stages) is better than striking 2-3-1 (7 stages)?
 

MajorMajora

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Well, if I got anything out of Krysco's posts it's that Wuhu and Skyloft are not much worse, if at all, than Delfino. Man, we've managed to have Delfino in a fair share of lists for a long time, haven't we? It's pretty presumptuous that Wuhu and Skyloft will suddenly promote stalling and walkoff camping all of a sudden.
 
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Ghostbone

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Wuhu and Skyloft are both way way way better than Delfino, with Wuhu being the most obviously legal stage tbh, it would be legal if it was in Brawl and the boat glitch (that's been patched out) never existed.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I assume you think that 4n+1 stages is optimal for striking rather than 2n+1, if so, could you explain why striking 1-2-1 (5 stages) or 1-2-2-1 (9 stages) is better than striking 2-3-1 (7 stages)?
I am insufficiently versed in game theory to answer this question. Sorry.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Miiverse is literally battlefield with a different underside. So no different than FD/omegas.

Every ruleset should treat it the same way it treats omegas, if someone counterpicks FD or Battlefield they can choose a specific omega or miiverse instead.
Wait, do most tournaments allow you to sub in ANY Omega stage in place of Final Destination? What about stages with grass on them? I was under the impression that those stages weren't legal. If the choices of Omegas are limited in some way, what are those limits?
 

ParanoidDrone

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Wait, do most tournaments allow you to sub in ANY Omega stage in place of Final Destination? What about stages with grass on them? I was under the impression that those stages weren't legal. If the choices of Omegas are limited in some way, what are those limits?
IIRC the standard Omega clause makes no attempt to single out any Omega or group of Omegas for legality purposes. They're all "close enough" for most purposes.

Related: I know that grass increases ground traction, but does it actually affect any particular tech in a meaningful way?
 

The_Jiggernaut

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IIRC the standard Omega clause makes no attempt to single out any Omega or group of Omegas for legality purposes. They're all "close enough" for most purposes.

Related: I know that grass increases ground traction, but does it actually affect any particular tech in a meaningful way?
If grass is strictly legal, that would be a great surprise to me. It effects the length of an initial dash, so anything jump-canceled, and dash-grabs are made shorter on such stages. I know it messes with ZSS and Fox at the very least
 

The_Jiggernaut

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I agree, I have no issue with it being legal, but I have very largely heard that it was not. Well, changing physics kinda bothers me, so...

I assume you think that 4n+1 stages is optimal for striking rather than 2n+1, if so, could you explain why striking 1-2-1 (5 stages) or 1-2-2-1 (9 stages) is better than striking 2-3-1 (7 stages)?
This is actually a question I have the background to tackle, so I'll give it a shot.

Basically, the more information you have to reveal before your opponent has to make their "move" the more of a disadvantage you find yourself at. This is because showing your hand early is bad, as your opponent may have eliminated a stage you would have struck yourself

With our current 5-stage system, the distribution of moves looks like this:

Player 1: first and fourth moves (Worst Move, Best Move)

Player 2: second and third moves (2nd Worst Move, 2nd Best Move)

As you can see, for both players, the 'strength' of their disadvantageous move is offset by the 'strength' of the advantageous move, so things even out. If you prefer to assign points to each move, 1-4 from worst to best, we see a balance:

Player 1: 1+4 = 5
Player 2: 2+3 = 5

Now here's why the "standard" 1-2-2-1 for 7 method is seen as unfair:

Player 1: first, fourth, fifth moves (Worst Move, Third Best Move, Second Best Move)

Player 2: second, third, sixth moves (Second Worst Move, Third Worst Move, Best Move)

Less symmetry this time, hard to match up moves like last time. Assigning points again we get

Player 1: 1+4+5 = 10
Player 2: 2+3+6 = 11

As we've been hearing, it's not balanced. Don't mistake the difference being "only one" as an indication that it's almost fair, player two is an entire move ahead of player one.

Now let's look at the proposed 2-3-1 method:

Player 1: first, second, sixth moves (Worst Move, Second Worst Move, Best Move)

Player 2: third, fourth, fifth moves (Third Worst Move, Third Best Move, Second Best Move)

Having to play the worst move is made up for by playing the best move, and the 3rd best and 3rd worst similarly cancel... But we see player 1 has to play the 2nd worst move while player 2 plays the 2nd best. Clearly unbalanced, but let's look at the points.

Player 1: 1+2+6 = 9
Player 2: 3+4+5 = 12

we see this proposed method is much less balanced than even the 1-2-2-1 method. Essentially, having to play BOTH the worst and the second worst moves is very weak.

Hopefully the math was clear and that answers your question. If you want me to work out the proof that it will always be balanced for 4n+1, feel free to ask.
 
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Pazx

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I agree, I have no issue with it being legal, but I have very largely heard that it was not. Well, changing physics kinda bothers me, so...



This is actually a question I have the background to tackle, so I'll give it a shot.

Basically, the more information you have to reveal before your opponent has to make their "move" the more of a disadvantage you find yourself at. This is because showing your hand early is bad, as your opponent may have eliminated a stage you would have struck yourself

With our current 5-stage system, the distribution of moves looks like this:

Player 1: first and fourth moves (Worst Move, Best Move)

Player 2: second and third moves (2nd Worst Move, 2nd Best Move)

As you can see, for both players, the 'strength' of their disadvantageous move is offset by the 'strength' of the advantageous move, so things even out. If you prefer to assign points to each move, 1-4 from worst to best, we see a balance:

Player 1: 1+4 = 5
Player 2: 2+3 = 5

Now here's why the "standard" 1-2-2-1 for 7 method is seen as unfair:

Player 1: first, fourth, fifth moves (Worst Move, Third Best Move, Second Best Move)

Player 2: second, third, sixth moves (Second Worst Move, Third Worst Move, Best Move)

Less symmetry this time, hard to match up moves like last time. Assigning points again we get

Player 1: 1+4+5 = 10
Player 2: 2+3+6 = 11

As we've been hearing, it's not balanced. Don't mistake the difference being "only one" as an indication that it's almost fair, player two is an entire move ahead of player one.

Now let's look at the proposed 2-3-1 method:

Player 1: first, second, sixth moves (Worst Move, Second Worst Move, Best Move)

Player 2: third, fourth, fifth moves (Third Worst Move, Third Best Move, Second Best Move)

Having to play the worst move is made up for by playing the best move, and the 3rd best and 3rd worst similarly cancel... But we see player 1 has to play the 2nd worst move while player 2 plays the 2nd best. Clearly unbalanced, but let's look at the points.

Player 1: 1+2+6 = 9
Player 2: 3+4+5 = 12

we see this proposed method is much less balanced than even the 1-2-2-1 method. Essentially, having to play BOTH the worst and the second worst moves is very weak.

Hopefully the math was clear and that answers your question. If you want me to work out the proof that it will always be balanced for 4n+1, feel free to ask.
Thank you for the detailed response. It makes sense mathematically, but I'm still not entirely convinced. The first strike is undoubtedly the weakest and the last strike is undoubtedly the strongest, but I'm confident the last strike is stronger than the first strike is weak, meaning you would have to assign a larger value to the final strike for the point system to work.

If we have 5 starters they can be ordered in each player's order of preference, and these lists should be the inverse of each other for non-ditto matchups. With absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, striking first would be a huge disadvantage, but as a competitor you are usually able to vaguely work out at least 1 stage your opponent will benefit from more than you (and you'll probably have your first preference in mind as well). For example, in Melee a Fox player should be confident striking FD first against a Marth player knowing that he won't also want to strike it as it is almost certainly Marth's best stage in the matchup, just as the Marth player would be confident striking Dream Land if he goes first. You're not really "showing your hand" so to speak unless you and your opponent are largely clueless, which isn't really relevant to rules designed to show who is the better competitor.

Edit: this is something I'm very interested in as a TO trying to utilise the ideal ruleset, so I appreciate your feedback.
 
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Ghostbone

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I've seen plenty of tournaments with people counterpicking omega windy hill zone, so I presume either nobody cares about banning grass or they don't think it's impactful enough to deserve singling out. I also see no reason to ban it, since I feel like the underside of the stage and the ability to wall jump or not is of greater importance than slightly different traction.

For striking, I agree with Pazx that you can't assign the best and worst picks similar numerical values (ie. the best pick doesn't cancel out the worst pick). Otherwise there'd be no preference between striking first or second for a 5 stage starter list, but routinely players will RPS off for first strike because they really want that last strike. (basically, I don't even think that the 4n+1 stage list is perfectly fair to both players)

Plus, we're assuming both players don't know what their best stages are. Under any system, if both players know their best n+1/2 stages (where n is the number of starters), then you'll always go to the most neutral stage. So really it's just on players to know their character and matchup.

Basically it might work out nice mathematically but I disagree with your axioms that allow you to reach that conclusion.
 
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Illuminose

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no one really cares because no one really goes to grass stages except villagers trying to be cheesy with the grass + the sapling and sonics who think that windy hill zone's music is good. kinda silly to have grass omegas legal imo when they change physics but I don't think people care enough to limit them tbh.
 
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Ghostbone

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If you ban grass omegas you might as well ban all omegas because you can't wall-jump on some, can't fly under some, you can get "pineapple'd" on some, etc.
They're a part of the game so they might as well be legal.
 

teluoborg

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Miiverse is literally battlefield with a different underside. So no different than FD/omegas.

Every ruleset should treat it the same way it treats omegas, if someone counterpicks FD or Battlefield they can choose a specific omega or miiverse instead.
Shows how little you know about those stages. Miiverse platform layout is closer to the ground than BF, allowing certain characters to reach the top platform more easily. You also can't pass straight down between the side platforms and the top platform, thus removing options from characters that have a stall then fall mechanic.
A lot of Omega stages have different edges from FD, some allowing easy stage spikes with dash attacks, the others allowing wall jumps.

Wuhu's hitboxes are both minor/weak (aside from the boat I guess) and extremely obvious. I can understand people complaining about the cliffs on Skyloft because they're not as obvious or the hazards on Halberd but complaining about Wuhu's hazards seems kinda dumb to me. I don't think anyone who actually plays on the stage would have any sort of issue with them.
And the blastzone changes on Delfino are easy to see coming too. Not one mechanic (hitboxes or blastzone changes) is better than the other, but people tend to prefer stages that don't hit them.

I regularly have or see matches go to time on various stages, I've had a timeout on Delfino in tournament. I don't think timeouts are necessarily a strike against Kongo. If circle/barrel camping turns out to be broken it should be banned, but I've yet to see it. Duck Hunt (which is my favourite legal stage by far) could also go for the same reason.
While time outs are a legit way to win a match they are anti climatic and kill the hype.
 

Ghostbone

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Shows how little you know about those stages. Miiverse platform layout is closer to the ground than BF, allowing certain characters to reach the top platform more easily. You also can't pass straight down between the side platforms and the top platform, thus removing options from characters that have a stall then fall mechanic.
I know about those differences, but I don't particularly care about pixels of difference that to my knowledge doesn't even affect precise spacing with stuff like quick attack cancels.

The platform layout is for all intents and purposes exactly the same, and games play out on battlefield identically to miiverse, with the potential exception of stuff with the underside of the stage.
 
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Pazx

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And the blastzone changes on Delfino are easy to see coming too. Not one mechanic (hitboxes or blastzone changes) is better than the other, but people tend to prefer stages that don't hit them.

While time outs are a legit way to win a match they are anti climatic and kill the hype.
People prefer stages that don't kill them and I'd argue that Delfino does more in regards to that than Wuhu or Skyloft ever could. How "hype" something is should not be taken into consideration when designing rulesets.
 

wizrad

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Whoa, whoa, whoa, Omega stages have physics changes? Which ones? Where can I read more about this?
 

Yikarur

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I totally forgot about this thread!

Right at the moment the german standard ruleset consists of:
Starter:
Ω*
Battlefield
Smash-Stadt / Smashville
Stadt & Großstadt / Town & City
Dreamland 64**

Counterpick-Stages:
All Stages (Ω)
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island

2 Stage Bans for opponents pick only.

*we have a list of omega stages we allow as starter and the TO is free to decide.
**if DL64 is not available on every set-up it will be replaced by Lylat Cruise.

Omega Clause:
If a Ω falls under "Dave Stupid Rule" and "Stage Ban" then every Ω is concerned. "Final Destination" is an Ω-Stage.
If a non-Ω is banned, so is it's Ω-Version.

Wuhu Island will probably eventually removed, because our main TO removed it for publicity reasons. We had a poll and it was about 60:40 against it (not sure why you would ban a stage based on such a voting though). We will probably reduce the amount of bans to 1 too.

Stages that have been considered, discussed and we decided to not have them allowed:

Halberd:
Halberd was legal a in Brawl. Most of the time. Brawl didn't have much true combos so the differences on this stage have been sharking and earlier kills. In Smash for WiiU we have a lot of true combos from throws and other moves. Most of this combos are not really designed to kill but to rack-up damage. On Halberd a lot of "ordinary damage rack-up combos" become kill set-ups at ridiculous low%. We decided to ban the Stage, because for that reason it is an auto-ban against a lot of characters. It's one of the few cases where we ban a stage because it's too strong of a counterpick.

Pokémon Stadium 2:
I really love this stage. I have discussed it's legality in brawl and I continued in Smash WiiU. This time the wind transformation suffers the same problem as halberd but to a slightly more excessive degree. The most prominent problem is Sheik having an instant kill from hitting an rising upair on low% to high%. This is sadly not acceptable and way to game breaking.

Kongo Jungle 64
I'm not going to write much about this. This stage is flat out not competitive. You can circle camp, barrel camp and much more. This stage was allowed in france last weekend and I counterpicked it to prove my point. This stage should never be legal.


Other rules explanation:


Omega Clause
In my opinion the best solution to the whole Omega thing. It's pretty similar to the solution most people use, but I like the wording more. This way people get used to say "I ban omega" instead of "I ban FD" and then people asking "Are omega banned as well?"

Dave's Stupid Rule
First things first: Dave's Stupid rule should never be "the last stage you won on".
Why? Because if you win on your counterpick. And then you win on the opponents counterpick. When you lose you can just use your Counterpick again. This destroys the whole purpose of the Dave's Stupid Rule.
Dave's Stupid Rule should always be "any stage won on cannot be picked".
This needs to be accumulated with the stage bans.
I like the Dave's Stupid Rule, because it forces player to learn more stages. I was in france last weeend, and no joke they play Smashville only. And only Smashville. All the time. Smashville. Really. Smashville.
When they won on Smashville they always wanted to CP it again. Because they apparantly don't know any other stages. I was glad to enfore the Dave's Stupid Rule on them. Because there have been 2 Stage Bans as well, I could ban Smashville anyway so they lose their only stage they play on 8)

and so we come to my next point:

Stage Bans
Personally I think stage bans are a bad thing. Every player should learn to deal with every stage allowed. With too many bans they can just deny to learn certain stages. That's a really bad thing. There are players that always ban Omega, because they don't like it. THEN they have 1 additional ban for Match-up purposes. I think if a player denies to play on certain stages there has to be some kind of "Punishment". In this case there should only be 1 ban; if they decide to ban a stage out of principle they lose their Match-up specific Ban.
I think there shouldn't be more than 1 Ban. And if you have allowed way too many stages and need more than 2 bans because there are a lot of unbalanced match-ups, then you should probably reduce the amount of stages first. Stages that are too unbalanced in a lot of match-up shouldn't be legal in my opinion.
That's why I'm thinking that Duck Hunt might not be a fair legal stages, because there are a few almost 100:0 MU's there because of the giant tree and some kind of "circle camping".
 

Pazx

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@ Yikarur Yikarur I would be very interested in hearing more about Kongo Jungle honestly. "You can circle camp" doesn't tell me that much I don't already know. Which characters can circle camp, how effective is it, does circle camping force all matches to go to time, is it truly the optimal strategy, etc.

It's a shame that Wuhu and Halberd are both going from your ruleset, I have to question why they aren't taking Delfino with them though.

I don't really agree with your assessment of DSR or bans, though. DSR is completely arbitrary to begin with IMO and we could probably do without it but I'm happy to keep it. If we keep it (which we likely will because REASONS?) we have to decide what purpose it should serve, and I think modified DSR (and the purpose it serves) is better than regular DSR. If you're winning on your opponents CP you probably deserve to win the set, so your example wasn't great.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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@ Yikarur Yikarur I would be very interested in hearing more about Kongo Jungle honestly. "You can circle camp" doesn't tell me that much I don't already know. Which characters can circle camp, how effective is it, does circle camping force all matches to go to time, is it truly the optimal strategy, etc.

It's a shame that Wuhu and Halberd are both going from your ruleset, I have to question why they aren't taking Delfino with them though.

I don't really agree with your assessment of DSR or bans, though. DSR is completely arbitrary to begin with IMO and we could probably do without it but I'm happy to keep it. If we keep it (which we likely will because REASONS?) we have to decide what purpose it should serve, and I think modified DSR (and the purpose it serves) is better than regular DSR. If you're winning on your opponents CP you probably deserve to win the set, so your example wasn't great.
If it's available somewhere you should watch Yikarur's games from this
http://smashboards.com/threads/aug-29-2015-smash-summer-cup-paris-france.410585/#post-19678847
He actually single handedly changed my mind on the stage.
 

LancerStaff

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Hey, I'm collecting data involving the bottom blastzones for Pit. Do you guys happen to have chart for stage depth or something? If not, I'll have a rudimentary one when I'm finished.
 

Ghostbone

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Dave's Stupid Rule
First things first: Dave's Stupid rule should never be "the last stage you won on".
Why? Because if you win on your counterpick. And then you win on the opponents counterpick. When you lose you can just use your Counterpick again. This destroys the whole purpose of the Dave's Stupid Rule.
Dave's Stupid Rule should always be "any stage won on cannot be picked".
I agree that's an issue, and perhaps a reason to not use the "last stage you won on" variation, but what I dislike about standard DSR is the inability to counter-pick the stage used for game 1.
The stage used for game 1 was struck to and determined neutral for the matchup by both players, there shouldn't be a reason to prevent it from being counter-picked by the winner (and it's also unfair for the winner since they can't counter-pick it but their opponent can, this can become more relevant when character counter-picking comes into play as well)

Maybe a simpler, "you cannot counter-pick the same stage twice" rule? DSR is mainly for stage diversity in Bo5 sets anyway, and this rule achieves that. It's different from the current rule, since even if you lose on your counter-pick you can't counter-pick it, but I think that's still fair, since it applies to both players equally. If you want, you could even extend it to "You can't counterpick a stage you counter-picked and won on", but idk if that's necessary.
 

Yikarur

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I can only agree with you with a like 9 Starter Stage List or FLSS.
With 5 Starter List I prefer Game 1 counting for DSR.
 

Ghostbone

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Yea true, 5 stage starter lists can't really be seen as balanced, but theoretically they're supposed to be and we should treat them as if they are, since otherwise the ruleset needs to be changed. We should be striving to have FLSS be the standard anyway, so having a rule suited to that makes more sense.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Now that I'm back in college and have a roommate to play against, well, I've had to sacrifice some of my preferred stages for his sake. I've given up on Skyloft (the building hitboxes were too much for him) and Peach's Castle 64 (which, yeah, I don't think should be legal either, but I had it on the Random select for some reason) and Pokemon Stadium 2. Though honestly I can live without those stages. Delfino and Wuhu fill the Travel stage void well enough and neither have weird hitboxes to deal with.

On the flipside, we use KJ64 and really like it, despite its unique properties
 

dav3yb

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Now that I'm back in college and have a roommate to play against, well, I've had to sacrifice some of my preferred stages for his sake. I've given up on Skyloft (the building hitboxes were too much for him) and Peach's Castle 64 (which, yeah, I don't think should be legal either, but I had it on the Random select for some reason) and Pokemon Stadium 2. Though honestly I can live without those stages. Delfino and Wuhu fill the Travel stage void well enough and neither have weird hitboxes to deal with.

On the flipside, we use KJ64 and really like it, despite its unique properties
Sorry to ask this... but is he TRYING to get hit by Skyloft stage? i think the hundreds of games ive played on it ive only been hit by the side of an island once, and have only seen other players get hit enough times to count on one hand.
 
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dav3yb

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I agree that's an issue, and perhaps a reason to not use the "last stage you won on" variation, but what I dislike about standard DSR is the inability to counter-pick the stage used for game 1.
The stage used for game 1 was struck to and determined neutral for the matchup by both players, there shouldn't be a reason to prevent it from being counter-picked by the winner (and it's also unfair for the winner since they can't counter-pick it but their opponent can, this can become more relevant when character counter-picking comes into play as well)

Maybe a simpler, "you cannot counter-pick the same stage twice" rule? DSR is mainly for stage diversity in Bo5 sets anyway, and this rule achieves that. It's different from the current rule, since even if you lose on your counter-pick you can't counter-pick it, but I think that's still fair, since it applies to both players equally. If you want, you could even extend it to "You can't counterpick a stage you counter-picked and won on", but idk if that's necessary.
My rule for DSR always reads "you may not pick a stage you have previously won on in the current set."
that way it works for a single stage in BO3 or a pair for BO5.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Sorry to ask this... but is he TRYING to get hit by Skyloft stage? i think the hundreds of games ive played on it ive only been hit by the side of an island once, and have only seen other players get hit enough times to count on one hand.
no he isn't, but the thing is that it really doesn't matter. The knockback is high, it comes out of nowhere, and there is a nonzero chance of getting hit by it, and that was a bit too much for him.
 

Ghostbone

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My rule for DSR always reads "you may not pick a stage you have previously won on in the current set."
that way it works for a single stage in BO3 or a pair for BO5.
I know that's what most tourneys use, and I really dislike that rule.
 

Illuminose

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DSR is a good rule. It prevents people from having to waste bans on stages that their opponents have already won on (thus for instance, Sheik can't go to Smashville every game, Sonic can't run back to FD if he's already won there, etc.). It makes no sense to be able to run it back to a stage that you've already won on unless your opponent agrees -- that could be construed as an unfair advantage. It's definitely needed for 7-stage lists that are running 1 ban but I think it's good for other lists anyways.
 
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